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Active: 1728 users

Starcraft and Day[9]'s Frisbee

Blogs > VGhost
Post a Reply
VGhost
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3618 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-12 16:17:01
January 12 2012 04:30 GMT
#1
I think I can assume we've all seen by now the video of Day[9] talking about frisbees:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxx55e1ZQCY


For those needing a refresher (or a summary), Day[9] talks about a hypothetical game being designed where points are scored by hitting posts with a thing – a frisbee or baseball. (In fact, he's basically talking about some super-complicated team golf-type game.) Day[9] suggests that he finds Brood War units more "frisbee-like" because there end up being more options to accomplish a goal which he says leads to having more options for goals.

I keep wondering if he got that backwards.

If you can throw a frisbee, you can put slice on it with barely any effort. Most of us probably threw the thing with a curve before we managed to straighten it out, and re-learning that with control isn't that big a problem. Distance, trick throws – at least a decent handful of them – are fairly easy to pick up.

Throwing a consistent curveball with a baseball, on the other hand, is a bit of a pain. Now let's consider what else you can do with a frisbee other than throw it a bunch of different ways.

Considering...

Considering...

...well, you try playing a game of baseball with a frisbee, and tell me how it goes. Sure, when it comes to throwing, a frisbee presents more options. If you tried to play ultimate with a baseball, it would be stupid. But when it comes to integrating one of the things into a game with more complicated goals – our projectile is now a "unit" – the baseball wins. Why? Well, there are really two reasons.

The first is simplicity. The design of the baseball demands almost no concessions when we do whatever we're doing with it. It's round, and that's about it. Round things work well for a variety of purposes due to the laws of physics. It's compatible with a ton of purposes.

The second is difficulty. Day[9] talked about the "physicality" of objects, but when it comes down to it the raw ability to "do more" with a frisbee doesn't produce the same difference in skill level as does the necessity to "do more" with a baseball in order to succeed. I can produce a pretty good imitation of almost anything any "pro" can do with a frisbee; but I throw curveballs by accident even when I'm trying, and attempting to throw a knuckleball is pretty much a joke.

So what does this really have to do with Starcraft? One more detour – I'm getting there.

It never hurts when talking about strategy games to talk about chess. Sure, it's overdone and borders on the facileness of political arguments that can't avoid Hitler, but for good reason: it's got all the basics and it's ancient.

[image loading]
You know, this thing.


The difficulty, beauty, and mastery of chess lies in using simple pieces to do very hard things. Beyond a handful of special moves, "spells" in RTS parlance – the en passant capture, castling, pawn's first move, and the eighth rank upgrade – and one piece with an "ability" – the knight's jump – each piece is absolutely limited to one possible type of movement. (Except the queen, and that forces her to be treated very carefully.)

To try to make a "Neo Chess" with a wider variety of pieces and properties would run a huge peril of damaging the simple genius of the game. To take an absurd example, we could add a piece ability "can put opposing king in check" – jump to wherever on the board that would be necessary to do it. But it radically simplifies a basic task of the game, which would quite arguably weaken game play.

I call this the principle of limitation: the greatest skill difference becomes apparent when operating on things which can't do it all. The queen cannot win the game by herself except at the lowest levels of play. I can drop a ball in a hole as well as anybody else, but make me do it with a golf club and I'll be honest I've never golfed in my life.

So I've rambled on at length about how Day[9] actually got his analogy backwards, but that's really nit-picking. After all, I would tend to agree with his general conclusion that SC2 doesn't present the same kind of difficulty in many places as Brood War did and may have a lower relative skill ceiling.

But I really think he got the analogy backwards because of why I think SC2 has looked "simpler" even beyond the streamlining of the controls. Here's an example of what I'm talking about: the example I've chosen – there are others – is the Terran add-on mechanics in the two games.

As conceived, the add-on is a brilliant "limitation" on production combining all the traditional features of the tech tree with the feel of the race overall. But consider how the mechanics play out in the two games.

In Brood War, each building with an add-on – Command Center, Barracks, Factory, Starport, Science Facility – has its own unique add-on with its own properties, choices, and limitations. (The CC and Science Facility have two possibilities each, no less.) While it doesn't come across as at all odd, this design is limitation. Any new tech choice – shop for mines vs. vultures now, say – forces a new choice.

In contrast, Starcraft II brings us (mostly) interchangeable addons (although the limitation-and-choice model does prevail with the Command Center). The result is, of course, more "options" at any given point in the game – granted you may briefly give up the ability to make tanks (say) in order to pump banshees, but there is not the limitation choice "cloak+extra time till the next wraith or wraith now" but rather the choice of possibilities "banshee or tank". (Though obviously it would be possible to postpone a tech lab until you got the starport up, but why?)

To go back to the Day[9] analogy, Starcraft II has upped the number of possible throws, but it does feel like there's been a degrading much of the potential skill differential. Consider the relative difficulty of executing a 2 port wraith build vs 2 port banshee (is that actually a thing? I'm assuming it is, but I really only watch MLG and if it's not then insert >>standard banshee harass-based build<<). If nothing else the simple time difference of building a new add-on vs having an add-on already makes the SC2 build easier (to say nothing of the relative damage). Obviously the add-on differences aren't the sum of the difference – MBS, auto-mine, and other things (it seems like early game Terran is either more defensible or techs faster (even without the add-on change) or both in Starcraft II) contribute to the relative degree of difficulty.

It's not necessarily the case that this is actually a problem with Starcraft II so much as just one more element of strategy to be incorporated into our understand as the game progresses – possibility choices rather than tech choices, not really different from do-I-build-tanks-or-vultures. There certainly seems to be enough depth to the game that, if balance properly, it will survive the additions and find all the micro potential that will eventually make this point look kind of silly. I mean, if you want to depress yourself, go watch Boxer win games with like ten units total and realize that was revolutionary because he was effective with those dropships. (Alternatively you can find it amazing how far our understanding of "the RTS scenario" has progressed since then.)

...However, I'm going to say that and then immediately say that I actually think it is a problem at least in the short run. I mean, if I didn't think it was a problem, why would I write this? While I used the example of the add-ons, there are plenty of other examples of the differences – I'm thinking mostly in the spells-and-abilities category – that I may go into if attention warrants.

EDIT: tl;dr: I disagree with application of Day[9]'s analogy (frisbee vs baseball) even though I generally agree with his point (ability to show more skill > less ability to show skill). Most of the rest of the blog is me rambling about how I think it actually applies - I'll edit it up for clarity when I'm not at work.

***
#4427 || I am not going to scan a ferret.
jrkirby
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1510 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-12 05:43:50
January 12 2012 05:13 GMT
#2
I read it all, but I didn't get your point. Mind adding a summary?

Edit: I was a fool and thought 2-port wraith didn't exist.
m3rciless
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1476 Posts
January 12 2012 05:17 GMT
#3
On January 12 2012 14:13 jrkirby wrote:
I read it all, but I didn't get your point. Mind adding a summary?

Also, I really doubt a 2-port wraith build has won very many games. It's not really a "thing".


shit post bro. Ask for a tl;dr and then claim 2-port wraith wasn't a real build. Tell that to Leta, you ignoramus.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/2_Port_Wraith_(vs._Zerg)
White-Ra fighting!
jrkirby
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1510 Posts
January 12 2012 05:27 GMT
#4
On January 12 2012 14:17 m3rciless wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2012 14:13 jrkirby wrote:
I read it all, but I didn't get your point. Mind adding a summary?

Also, I really doubt a 2-port wraith build has won very many games. It's not really a "thing".


shit post bro. Ask for a tl;dr and then claim 2-port wraith wasn't a real build. Tell that to Leta, you ignoramus.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/2_Port_Wraith_(vs._Zerg)


I guess I was wrong about 2-port wraith. It's just not very common and I've personally never seen it in the 2 years I've been watching, so I thought it didn't exist.

I only asked for the tl:dr because I don't get the overall point of the message. More specifically, I need a conclusion that ties everything together and states his opinion. Was he making a post about game design or defending starcraft 2 or claiming baseballs take more skill than frizbees? I'm not sure what his important point was.
Endymion
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States3701 Posts
January 12 2012 05:37 GMT
#5
2 port wraith isn't a build? i remember seeing an fpvod of julyzerg vs boxer where boxer completely crushed july with it, it's definitely viable at the pro scene (and everything in between, it was my most hated build to play against on iccup..)
Have you considered the MMO-Champion forum? You are just as irrational and delusional with the right portion of nostalgic populism. By the way: The old Brood War was absolutely unplayable
m3rciless
Profile Joined August 2009
United States1476 Posts
January 12 2012 05:57 GMT
#6
On January 12 2012 14:37 Endymion wrote:
2 port wraith isn't a build? i remember seeing an fpvod of julyzerg vs boxer where boxer completely crushed july with it, it's definitely viable at the pro scene (and everything in between, it was my most hated build to play against on iccup..)



yo don't worry man I handled it. MY fav memory of 2-port is baby playing what must have been his 3rd or 4th televised game in one of the GOM tournaments and getting like 99 kills on his wraiths with some insane control and then still losing because he forgot to follow up. That was when i knew he would be a player to watch out for though.
White-Ra fighting!
Noe
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Sweden80 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-12 06:42:28
January 12 2012 06:42 GMT
#7
On January 12 2012 13:30 VGhost wrote:
I think I can assume we've all seen by now the video of Day[9] talking about frisbees:

If you can throw a frisbee, you can put slice on it with barely any effort. Most of us probably threw the thing with a curve before we managed to straighten it out, and re-learning that with control isn't that big a problem. Distance, trick throws – at least a decent handful of them – are fairly easy to pick up.

Throwing a consistent curveball with a baseball, on the other hand, is a bit of a pain. Now let's consider what else you can do with a frisbee other than throw it a bunch of different ways.


I don't think the point of his analogy was how hard it was to pick up certain throwing abilities within these two objects. It was that the frisbee can be thrown in more ways than a baseball can, and therefore can hit more pillars in the open plane he was talking about. If a pillar is behind another pillar, the frisbee can still it it, but the baseball cannot.

EDIT: Removed youtube video from quote.
Humanfails
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
224 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-12 07:58:51
January 12 2012 07:54 GMT
#8
What he's saying is that via interchaneable modules, terran has a far more diverse range of possible moves with the same pieces, as opposed to brood war.

you can go hellion reactor -> swap lab -> tank ->swap lab -> bansheew ith cloak.

in brood war you can go early vultures, build factory addon, tank, build starport, build addon, cloak banshees.

One takes more time, uses up more resources, and limits what you can do, so that you can't do everything at once. A build in brood war has limitations that can be exploited and specific timings. add-on swaps destroy timing limitations for anything other than the idea of "this is the soonest they can have X".

so terran has much more possibilities and combinations of possibilities, leading to infinitely more timings. essentially he's saying that if this were chess its like turning all the pawns into queens.

I agree with him, terran can tech too efficiently early game. It's completely frustrating playing zerg vs terran for this reason. I have to prepare against early harass or pressure builds, the possibility of heavy pressure builds 30 seconds later, and the possibility of cloak cheese 30 seconds after that, and the possibility of mass hellion + some tanks 30 seconds after that.

protoss earliest tech is VR or DT, both of which are shut down by building spores. All terrans options are shut down by either getting some early roach ling, getting some pure roach, getting some ling bling, getting some spore/ling, trying to get spore while teching to muta, etc etc. It forces a near limitless set of possibilities on oppoents for something that easy to execute.

and dont say scout more. decent non-retard terrans deny ols all the time. and if you go another route to avoid losing the ol prematurely it doesnt arrive in time to scout what they're doing.
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-12 09:46:09
January 12 2012 09:41 GMT
#9
I have some difficulty understanding what you're trying to say.

The way I see the games and understand the Day9 analogy:
SC2 is a game of decision making with relatively irrelevant execution (in comparison to BW).
BW, on the other hand, is a game of decision making and/"or" perfect execution (macro, micro). That's where the frisbee comes in.

In SC2 you have to be an excellent decision maker. In BW you have more options, more ways of coming back... Not just making the right choices. Do you disagree with anything I wrote?
En Taro Violet
Slithe
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States985 Posts
January 12 2012 10:15 GMT
#10
I think you are talking about very different things from what Day9 was talking about.

Day9's point: It's good to have units that increase in strength based on the player's technical abilities.

Your point: Having more options in a game does not necessarily increase the strategic depth or difficulty of the game.
sh4w
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States713 Posts
January 12 2012 11:35 GMT
#11
His little thing about the multiplier popping up over the units in BW like 9x 10x, while in SC2 it's non existant or like 1.2x, is so dead on. Wraps it all up for me.
I want to go back to being weird. I like being weird. Weird is all I've got. That and my sweet style.
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