• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 21:37
CEST 03:37
KST 10:37
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection6Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview5[ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies21Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO12 Preview2
Community News
[BSL22] Non-Korean Championship from 13 to 28 June2Weekly Cups (May 25-31): Clem doubles, 2v2 circuit heads toward finale0StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th151Weekly Cups (May 18-24): MaxPax wins doubles0Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League6
StarCraft 2
General
TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview TL Poll: How do you feel about the 5.0.16 PTR balance changes? What kind of tool would you be interested in? Oliveira Would Have Returned If EWC Continued
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament GSL Code S Season 2 (2026) WardiTV Mondays Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 529 Opportunities Unleashed Mutation # 528 Infection Detected Welcome to the External Content forum
Brood War
General
BW animated web series: seeking contributors 25 Years Since Brood War Patch 1.08 FlaSh's ASL S21 Finals Review BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [BSL22] Non-Korean Championship from 13 to 28 June
Tourneys
[BSL22] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CEST [ASL21] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2
Strategy
Why doesn't anyone use restoration? Any training maps people recommend? Muta micro map competition [G] Hydra ZvZ: An Introduction
Other Games
General Games
ZeroSpace Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread PC Games Sales Thread Summer Games Done Quick 2026! The Perfect Game
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
I'm an arrogant trash talke…
FlaShFTW
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
Esportsmanship: How to NOT B…
TrAiDoS
Why RTS gamers make better f…
gosubay
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 5300 users

1.4 Vision Change and Positional Play

Blogs > -_-
Post a Reply
-_-
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States7081 Posts
September 28 2011 23:47 GMT
#1
I did a quick search of vision, and didn't find any extended discussion on the vision change beyond its implications in PvP.

I don't have any replays, and my experience is limited to fifty or so games post patch, so I don't feel like this thread should be in the strategy forum yet. Thus, I just wanted to write a quick blog and get the community's opinion.

I find that decreasing unit vision up ramps has made it possible to defend a choke from the high ground with a much smaller defensive force than the attacking force. In fact, I think the high ground advantage is more important in Starcraft 2 than it was in Starcraft Broodwar in many situations. In brief, this is because in Starcraft 2 vision can be completely denied if a certain critical mass of DPS is reached, while in Starcraft at least damage was (randomly) guaranteed.

I'll give a short concrete example to explain. TvP on Antiga. Terran goes for a slightly unconventional Marine, Raven, Tank, Banshee, macro game. Mid game, T takes the center plateau. He spreads and sieges his tanks, and parks his Marines on the top of the ramp. P goes for Zealot, Sentry, Stalker, Immortal, with fast High Templars.

In this situation, clearing the center is almost impossible, because getting vision of the center is almost impossible. Observers are scouted by the raven, and because of the decreased unit range, attack moving up the plateau doesn't work.

First, it's impossible to storm without vision. And to prevent vision, Terran simply needs enough DPS to kill the first few units charging up the ramp, thus preventing all ranged DPS and spells. This leaves your stalkers, immortals, sentries, and immortals useless, while marines chew up the zealots.

While this is a specific example, in other situations the same principle applies. Essentially, I believe if you have enough units on the high ground to shred a few units which grant vision, the usefulness of ranged units will vacillate as they lose vision and the ability to attack. Because of this vacillation, they will not be able to decrease the DPS of the high ground units by getting a enlough shots off, leaving the high ground units to further shred any units which try to charge the ramp and give vision.

I'm curious whether I'm alone in experiencing this drastic change. I've been playing around in a unit tester, and it does seem to me that positional play in Starcraft 2 might become more important. Clearly, the same dynamic was present before to a lesser degree, but I find the small change Blizzard has made to have wide-reaching implications.

Ultimately, if maps use more small high ground chokes for expansions, I think Starcraft 2 could change for the better. But maybe I'm delusional. What do you think?

PJFrylar
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States350 Posts
September 29 2011 00:02 GMT
#2
I'm not sure it'll be that big of a deal besides the early game. Most air units tend to have a pretty far sight radius. In you example observers probably would be able to provide sight as they have a sight radius of 11. The terran might be able to see them, but you'll still get a decent chunk of vision while sitting outside the range of the marines.
deconduo
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Ireland4122 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-29 00:49:31
September 29 2011 00:48 GMT
#3
Just hallucinate 7-8 Phoenixes. If the terran wastes dps by taking them down it gives the toss ample time to move in.

The change will hopefully encourage more use of hallucination for tosses. Zergs might have a harder time dealing with that situation though.
Dingobloo
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Australia1903 Posts
September 29 2011 00:51 GMT
#4
What they changed was the amount you can see up the ramp if you're on the low-ground, not the amount you can see of the high-ground if you're on the ramp.

It's extremely subtle which is why you're only hearing about it in pvp, the situation you described is the same both pre and post patch except you could maybe put more marines on the ramp.
reneg
Profile Joined September 2010
United States859 Posts
September 29 2011 00:54 GMT
#5
Hrmm, you bring up some interesting points.

I feel like, in your PvT example, a better choice might be to try to flank the T, and go for a multipronged attack. Or hit his main with a drop or something

As far as chokes / ramps for your nat, i feel like that would be guaranteeing a natural a little too much.

I don't mind some maps where naturals are safer than on other maps, but to have a lot more maps where the natural is on top of a choke (like your main), will just have everyone building their gateway / rax at the top of that ramp, and either expanding at their leisure, or confusing people into possibly being a 1 base allin, when you couldn't check to see if they had expanded yet.

I feel like you should be assured at least ONE base for a little while, i feel at no point you should have TWO really easily secured.

+ Show Spoiler [offtopic] +
That's why i don't like terminus re, because you have three bases behind one relatively super easy to defend choke. And a T or a P can just wall right there with that, and take multiple bases at their own pace. It kind of defeats the risk of taking additional expansions.
moose...indian
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
PiGosaur Cup
00:00
#85 (PTR Edition)
PiGStarcraft652
CranKy Ducklings64
davetesta28
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft652
ProTech85
Nina 48
Temp0 29
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 4094
Rain 3250
Artosis 563
Noble 23
NaDa 18
Nal_rA 6
Dota 2
monkeys_forever429
capcasts98
NeuroSwarm91
Counter-Strike
taco 193
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox680
Mew2King91
Other Games
summit1g12960
Day[9].tv1543
shahzam570
C9.Mang0568
ViBE121
Maynarde119
UpATreeSC41
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick932
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP12
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21172
League of Legends
• Stunt223
Other Games
• Day9tv1543
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
7h 23m
Kung Fu Cup
9h 23m
Maestros of the Game
13h 23m
Classic vs Lambo
Clem vs Maru
Replay Cast
22h 23m
The PondCast
1d 8h
Maestros of the Game
1d 13h
Serral vs Rogue
herO vs SHIN
OSC
1d 20h
Replay Cast
1d 22h
Maestros of the Game
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
[ Show More ]
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
OSC
4 days
Wardi Open
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL Season 22
2026 GSL S2
Heroes Pulsing #1

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
Acropolis #4 - GSB
SCTL 2026 Spring
WardiTV Spring 2026
Maestros of the Game 2
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Murky Cup 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026

Upcoming

BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
Douyu Cup 2026
Heroes Pulsing #3
Heroes Pulsing #2
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.