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September OmniRant

Blogs > Reithan
Post a Reply
Reithan
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States360 Posts
September 19 2011 17:21 GMT
#1
I don't know what it's been about this month, but 19 days into September I'm more frustrated with the SC2 community and Blizzard than any other point since beta. So, I figured my blog would be a good place to enumerate some of the things I've noticed, if only to just get them off my chest:

1. Imbalance only affects top Masters players - fallacy + Show Spoiler +

The argument that balance only matters at the highest levels is a fallacy of the highest order.

Just because a player of higher skills can beat someone playing a weaker race does not negate that the race is weaker. Even if an advantage is overcome, it is still an advantage.

Mean that any player of a stronger race in Masters could possibly be there ONLY due to this unfair advantage, whereas playing a different race with the same skill would only have landed them in Diamond, and conversely, they would be taking the places and ruining the MMRs of players of weaker races, forcing them into Diamond when they should have been in Masters.

People say, "Well, it doesn't matter unless you're in Masters. If you just got better, you would be too."

And then what? Then you are suddenly privileged to be affected by the imbalance? That's your reward for working your way up past the imbalance, being shat on by lesser skilled players that are beating you only because of an imba race, finally improving enough to fight past a lot of them into Masters league, just for the privilege to be able to go, "Yup, the game is totally fucking imba" and people believe you?

And then if ANOTHER player agrees with you, says "You're right, it's imba! That race is OP!", and HE'S not Masters, then the hell with him, he hasn't earned the right to PROPERLY be screwed by imbalances!

2. Terran AoE Availability + Show Spoiler +

Terran just has more numerous, easier to use, easier to tech and more powerful Area-of-Effect crowd-control options than the other two races COMBINED

AoE for Toss:
1 Colossus
2 HT
3 Archon

Zerg
1 Baneling
2 Ultra (LOL)
3 Infestor

Terran
1 EMP
2 Nuke
3 HSM
4 Hellion
5 SeigeTank
6 Thor (AA)
7 PF

Check this out: Every single Factory unit has an AOE attack, The barracks has 2 AOE attacks available (from 1 unit), And thei freaking BASE can be upgraded with an AoE attack. The starport has an AoE available. And on top of that, all their units (Except the banshee and maruader?) have smart-fire which is about a hair away from being as good as AoE for crowd control.

Zerg has NO smart-fire units, mostly melee units and horrible AoE units.
Toss has melee and No smart fire, except for the immortal. Though, their AoE units are awesome.

So, anytime it turns into mass vs mass combat - which is almost any SC2 game...Terran SHOULD be at an advantage.

3. Blizzard NP nerf bait & switch + Show Spoiler +

It seems very hard to believe that Blizzard at any point intended for the no Massive targeting for NP nerf would actually be implemented, being that it is OBVIOUSLY the only reasonable use for the ability. This leaves only 2 options for their actual intent with the PTR change as it was:

1. Offset the rage of players at the forthcoming range nerf, making it seem not as bad in comparison.
2. Just dick around with random changes they won't actually implement on the PTR

Given that #2 is something Blizzard is simply not going to waste time and money on, the PR bait & switch of #1 seems more likely. And that sucks.

4. Same-tech counters and lower-tech counters + Show Spoiler +

As pointed out to me by a Masters player I know, in BW, compared to SC2 most (if not all) "counter" units were at least 1 tech level higher than what they countered, if not 2. Whereas in Sc2 we not only have counter units at the same level as the units they counter (maruader vs stalker/roach, lings vs stalker, reaper vs ling, etc) we also have units that counter units of HIGHER tech levels (reaper vs hydra, lings vs immortals).

This isn't an imbalance issue, and not really a game design "issue", just a style and feel change. It takes away from the sort of "arms race feeling of most RTS games, and replaces it with a complex "rock paper scissors" type of strategy.

5. Protoss whines about Robo Necessity + Show Spoiler +

All over the Battle.net forums, and I think I saw some on the forums here, as well, Protoss players seem to be complaining that having observers as their only mobile detection option coming from the Robotics Facility somehow funnels them down a tech path and puts them at an extreme disadvantage to Terran and Zerg. Making them unable to realistically tech Air units at the same speed as the other races.

This simply isn't true, by the numbers.

Assuming you want to go air, AND have mobile detection, and comparing costs side by side:

Terran:
Barracks - 150m/60s
OC - 150m/(35s) - Mobile Detection Option 1
Factory - 150m/100g/60s
Starport - 150m/100g/50s
--Tech Lab for Ravens - 50m/50g/(25s) - for Detection Option 2
Total - 500-650m, 200-250g, 170-195s - Depending on if you build tech lab before Starport, and which options of OC/Tech lab are chosen.
Max Total - 650m, 250g, 195s
Min Total - 500m, 200g, 170s

Zerg (iincluding cost of sacced drones):
Pool - 250m/65s
Lair - 150m/100g/80s
Spire - 250/200/100s
Total - 650m, 300g, 245s

Protoss:
Gateway - 150m/65s
Cyber - 150m/50s
Robo - 200m/100g/(65s)
Stargate - 150m/150g/(60s)
Total - 650m, 250g, 180-240s - Depending on if you Build Robo & Stargate at same time.
Max Total - 650m, 250g, 240s
Min Total - 650m, 250g, 180s

For 50 LESS gas than Zerg, Protoss gets the benefit of being able to build robo and stargate simultaneously after cyber, where Zerg has to wait for both the long time of the lair AND long time of the spire to finish. Not to mention you unlocking gateway, robo AND air units: Zealots, Sentries, Stalkers, Immortals, Warp prisms, Immortals, Phoenixes and Void Rays. Zerg gets lings and mutas ONLY. Protoss is making out like a bandit.

Terran still has it the easiest however, with multiple detection options along the way, AND lower costs. Not to mention Terran's now unlocked marines, hellions, medivacs, banshees, vikings AND ravens. Plus they can trade off the tech lab to access tanks, marauders and reapers as well.

Protoss does NOT have it that hard here. Terran is is a bit ahead, but they seem to be in any direct comparison of efficiency in build order.

6. Blizzard support vs leeching of eSports + Show Spoiler +

As detailed in in this thread, Blizzard really seems more interested in letting the eSports community support and promote Blizzard than vice versa. This should be a 2-way street, not just Blizzard leeching off other people's efforts and money investment to bolster their own profits.

7. Replay sharing STILL not available + Show Spoiler +

This has been a 'coming soon' feature for FAR FAR too long. I, along with so many other people, are sick to death of Bnet2.0 being such a huge step BACKWARDS from Bnet1.0

Blizzard should be looking to things like the steam in-game overlay, other competitive games with integrated community options, MSLive Gaming, XBox live even (ugh), LOL, etc, and integrating, adding and improving options to make SC2 a premiere eSports and community engine, not just slapping together a shoddy, clunky dated interface that their PREVIOUS products worked better than, and calling it a day.

8. Perceived game imbalance that doesn't seem to show up when you look at the numbers + Show Spoiler +

Comparing this chart to this chart I'm having a hard time seeing the effects of any racial imbalance where it would show up, as agreed upon by the community - at the highest levels of play.

If you suppose that a given race was imbalanced, you SHOULD see a higher percentage of that race's players in the upper leagues (Masters and GM), and given that this imbalance would then affect these players more at higher levels, you SHOULD see players at these levels having higher win/loss ratios than their non-imba counterparts. At these levels of play, the balancing factor of MMR should break down as the players hit the ceiling of what MMR can do.

Looking at SC2 Ranks Numbers, we see across all leagues in the past 30 days:
Random = 9.0% (57,106)
Protoss = 32.1% (203,587)
Terran = 33.2% (210,755)
Zerg = 25.7% (163,158)

Making Zerg the least played race, and Terran slightly more played than Toss, with very few players playing randomly.

Looking at the second chart we see, based on Grandmaster League in the past 30 days:
Random 2.4% (26) with 50.5% (18,661) wins and 754 points on average.
Protoss 32.1% (350) with 56.8% (115,201) wins and 832 points on average.
Terran 35.8% (391) with 58.5% (119,518) wins and 856 points on average.
Zerg 29.7% (324) with 56.5% (97,230) wins and 836 points on average.

Meaning all 3 races fall within a 2% margin of win/loss ratio of each other, and are very close on average points. The races' representation in GM League is expected, based on the different OVERALL population of each race, as they correlation almost directly, taking some extra population from Random's percentage, which would reasonable expected to be harder to excel at, being that it would require the player to be near-GM level skill with all 3 races.

Comparing these numbers to the often-cite Sc2Statistics graph of Pro-level wins shown here, considering "tournament winners" to be a sort of league in it's own (you have to beat players to prove a high skill (MMR) over a period of time), it should be realized that even an amazing player of an under-represented race could simply be swept aside by weight of numbers. The better player doesn't always win the match when skill is relatively close, and over the course of repeated matches, if a race is under-represented at the start of a tournament, it's very likely to be under-represented in the finals, as well.

In that context, even these results seem fairly balanced, given that the results are all within only a 5.5% span, even discounting numbers of players in each race category. If anything it may show zerg being a bit too strong, given that they placed second, while being far under-represented, but if so, given that these are individual match results, not overall results, it still remains that the the graph is very close. If viewed in a full, undistorted field the 3 lines would likely look even closer together, but as we're looking at it through a window of only 40-60%, rather than 0-100%, it looks far more telling a division than it really is.

ALTERNATELY, it could be said that imbalance would also affect the LOWER leagues strongly, giving skill-less players a strong advantage over players with equally non-existent skills. Why don't we look there, too!

Random 8.1% (15,173) with 292 average points.
Protoss 32.8% (61,623) with 276 average points.
Terran 39.5% (74,193) with 270 average points.
Zerg 19.5% (36,654) with 283 average points.

Blizzard so kindly removed win/loss rations in lower leagues, so these numbers are less helpful than they could be, but we can see the that race distribution is fairly predictable, again, and the average point totals are fairly close to each other, again.

tl;dr: Imbalances? Not that I can find.



*
http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/Xanthus730 ***** http://www.twitch.tv/reithan
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
September 19 2011 17:26 GMT
#2
In BW, protoss is regarded as being easier in the lower levels (ICCUP D to B at least), yet at the highest levels (pro BW) there is thought to be at best good balance or slight weakness in protoss.

Taking your arguement, is protoss still imba?
OpticalShot
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Canada6330 Posts
September 19 2011 17:36 GMT
#3
You hit the mark on point number 6.
[TLMS] REBOOT
Reithan
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States360 Posts
September 19 2011 17:38 GMT
#4
I would imagine Protoss being easier at lower levels would be mostly due to the lower number of units on the map at once for protoss based on higher unit costs and efficiency, and the higher difficulty of managing large numbers of units in BW.

Also, I don't know which argument you're referring to, it's a long post.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/Xanthus730 ***** http://www.twitch.tv/reithan
N3rV[Green]
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States1935 Posts
September 19 2011 17:51 GMT
#5
The only problem I have with your list (it's pretty spot on I must say, I am also annoyed by a lot of that shit) is the last point. Terran vs Protoss is not a 100% balanced matchup I'm sorry to say.

The 1/1/1 is imbalanced, no other way to say it. The combination of marines, tanks, and banshees in an early push is just not possible to stop. The banshees require anti air, the only anti air that works in this situation are stalkers since getting a stargate literally kills you because of the marine aspect. You MUST have AoE to deal with the number of marines that come with the push, unless you are puzzle and can use the map perfectly to pick off half the units on their push to your base with 100% perfect control and force fields, but I can't do that. Also, the only possible AoE that comes out in time is a VERY rushed colossus (no range, can't get it in time) but that tech does nothing to help vs the tanks (which outrange your silly giant robot like its nothing) and banshees.

It's a giant mindfuck of doom and it's just straight up broken.
Never fear the darkness, Bran. The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong.
Entropic
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2837 Posts
September 19 2011 18:16 GMT
#6
On September 20 2011 02:38 Reithan wrote:
I would imagine Protoss being easier at lower levels would be mostly due to the lower number of units on the map at once for protoss based on higher unit costs and efficiency, and the higher difficulty of managing large numbers of units in BW.

Also, I don't know which argument you're referring to, it's a long post.


Ah I shoulda specified, I was referring only to point 1.
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 19:00:12
September 19 2011 18:55 GMT
#7
1: Imbalances vary depending on the player's level, that's why the argument is oftentimes made that it only affects masters. If infestors were OP and Zerg started killing everyone in master's league, giving Zerg a 90% win rate at that level, it's entirely possible that they'd still have a 40% win rate in Bronze because bronze players suck at using infestors. That's why I DGAF if a bronze player thinks something is imbalanced - they can't handle the game. The "imbalance" they experience is, for the most part, based on their failure as players. It's a curve thing - some people can't use all the tools that are at their disposition.

I can't imagine that someone would make the argument that Master and even Gold players have the same "imbalances". They play so differently.

3: Blizzard makes mistakes. I think they intended to do this because they don't know better.

4: Simplistic view of the game, IMO.

5: A few things
a) I don't know how you can compare "going air" across all races as if it was the same thing.
b) Building robo + stargate at the same time right after cyber opens up a huge, huge timing push window. Nearly unrecoverable imo.
c) Corruptors too, but irrelevant. You seem to think every race's "air" is equivalent and has the same value. This is a strategy game where every decision is intertwined with everything else that's happening in the game.
d) Going templar tech is hard too because of the lack of cheap observers. Have to get out of the way to get them. (I don't pretend it's imbalanced, btw, but I understand the point)

7- That is true, nothing short of disgusting. Battle.net 2.0 is still a huge disappointment

"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
Reithan
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States360 Posts
September 19 2011 19:10 GMT
#8
On September 20 2011 03:55 Djzapz wrote:+ Show Spoiler +

1: Imbalances vary depending on the player's level, that's why the argument is oftentimes made that it only affects masters. If infestors were OP and Zerg started killing everyone in master's league, giving Zerg a 90% win rate at that level, it's entirely possible that they'd still have a 40% win rate in Bronze because bronze players suck at using infestors. That's why I DGAF if a bronze player thinks something is imbalanced - they can't handle the game. The "imbalance" they experience is, for the most part, based on their failure as players. It's a curve thing - some people can't use all the tools that are at their disposition.

I can't imagine that someone would make the argument that Master and even Gold players have the same "imbalances". They play so differently.

3: Blizzard makes mistakes. I think they intended to do this because they don't know better.

4: Simplistic view of the game, IMO.

5: A few things
a) I don't know how you can compare "going air" across all races as if it was the same thing.
b) Building robo + stargate at the same time right after cyber opens up a huge, huge timing push window. Nearly unrecoverable imo.
c) Corruptors too, but irrelevant. You seem to think every race's "air" is equivalent and has the same value. This is a strategy game where every decision is intertwined with everything else that's happening in the game.
d) Going templar tech is hard too because of the lack of cheap observers. Have to get out of the way to get them. (I don't pretend it's imbalanced, btw, but I understand the point)

7- That is true, nothing short of disgusting. Battle.net 2.0 is still a huge disappointment


1. Yes, I went a bit more in-depth on this in my last point. But the fact remains if there is an imbalance it's still an available advantage to players of all levels. If a race has a unit that's OP, but only when micro'd right, then all a bronze player would have to do is learn SOME of that micro, and suddenly they're smoke-checking their peers left, right and center. I know 'imbalance' isn't a simple 1-size fits all thing, but it still AFFECTS all. An imbalance will change the skill-entry requirements, learning curves and skill ceilings of a given race, creating skewed results within the play environment. That WILL affect everyone playing.

3. Which, if true, is nearly as bad, if not worse than it just being a ploy.

4. Yes. It wasn't exactly an in-depth and far-reaching point. Just a note on something that was contributing to September being frustrating.

5. I'm NOT comparing it. I'm comparing it in terms of players rants. This is what people are bitching about and this is the breakdown. NOTHING is directly equivalent cross-race. But if you really want to compare apples and oranges, it's not what you think, anyway.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/Xanthus730 ***** http://www.twitch.tv/reithan
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 19:45:53
September 19 2011 19:43 GMT
#9
1. Yes, I went a bit more in-depth on this in my last point. But the fact remains if there is an imbalance it's still an available advantage to players of all levels. If a race has a unit that's OP, but only when micro'd right, then all a bronze player would have to do is learn SOME of that micro, and suddenly they're smoke-checking their peers left, right and center. I know 'imbalance' isn't a simple 1-size fits all thing, but it still AFFECTS all. An imbalance will change the skill-entry requirements, learning curves and skill ceilings of a given race, creating skewed results within the play environment. That WILL affect everyone playing.

I disagree with that. IMO, the game is played so differently at all skill levels that the imbalances are completely different. Let's use the same example again: Infestors, those are really hard to use - especially at low levels. Now hypothetically if they were OP at high levels, they may not be in bronze because those player's "APM" could be better spent elsewhere.

Similarly, it's easy enough to teach a bronze player to 4wg or 2rax against zerg and suddenly they're using an "OP" build which is hard to counter at that level because their opponents simply don't have the mechanics to handle things that are OP for better players. Those strategies may work at higher levels, but aren't necessarily completely out of control like they could be in low levels.

IDK if I'm making it clear but yeah, that's my opinion and I'm pretty sure I'm right =D (aren't we all)
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
Reithan
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States360 Posts
September 19 2011 19:46 GMT
#10
Even if everything you say is correct Djzapz (which it is to an extent), the different imbalances along the skill curve of a certain race will distort the learning curve, skill ceiling and skill-entry requirements of that race, skew MMRs and affect the overall metagame.

Which in turn, STILL affects everyone. Not just Master/GM leaguers.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/Xanthus730 ***** http://www.twitch.tv/reithan
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
September 19 2011 19:53 GMT
#11
On September 20 2011 04:46 Reithan wrote:
Even if everything you say is correct Djzapz (which it is to an extent), the different imbalances along the skill curve of a certain race will distort the learning curve, skill ceiling and skill-entry requirements of that race, skew MMRs and affect the overall metagame.

Which in turn, STILL affects everyone. Not just Master/GM leaguers.

Yes well then again it's an incredibly complex game and can only be balanced to a certain point lest there be divine intervention. The number of variables is pretty much infinite.

While a little bit of balancing may be good at the low levels, it's only natural that Blizzard handles things looking at the very top since those are the games people really look at. If some units are OP at low levels and they get nerfed, that affects pro games negatively.

In a perfect world... :D
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
Reithan
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States360 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 19:56:57
September 19 2011 19:56 GMT
#12
Yeah, I never said it's fixable. I just said it's there. It exists as an effect at all levels.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/Xanthus730 ***** http://www.twitch.tv/reithan
OmniEulogy
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada6592 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 19:57:47
September 19 2011 19:56 GMT
#13
I'm just going to hit point 5 as I think you are almost correct about anything else. Making observers and VR's off 1 base isn't really possible gas wise... after they expand sure. I've never really complained about it anyway... but I figured I'd still let you know although the base cost is lower than Z its still much less efficient.
LiquidDota Staff
Reithan
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States360 Posts
September 19 2011 19:57 GMT
#14
1-base muta is pretty shit, too.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/Xanthus730 ***** http://www.twitch.tv/reithan
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