Recently came across an article about Sir Ian McKellen AKA Gandalf/Magneto heading up a program to counter homophobia in British schools. I thought it was suitable for a proportion of the population on the forums here, and I guess within the larger SC2 community (heck, the global community).
Here's an excerpt:
"I'm not useless," McKellen asserts in my old school hall, "but when you use that word as an insulting adjective, that's what you're saying about me. So please, watch your language. Because if you don't, you mightn't watch your actions…" He goes on to tell how Ian Baynham [a 62-year-old gay] was recently killed in a homophobic hate attack by teenagers. "The girl who stamped on his head might have used 'gay' to mean anything rubbish and useless. And that probably convinced her that gay people were rubbish and useless – and don't deserve to live."
On May 10 2011 20:03 Black[CAT] wrote: Oooo... Only now i knew that he was gay... No matter what he does, he still wont change my mind that liking another dude's penis is disgusting...
Imagine, for gay males, the thought of having sex with a women is equally disgusting.
On May 10 2011 20:03 Black[CAT] wrote: Oooo... Only now i knew that he was gay... No matter what he does, he still wont change my mind that liking another dude's penis is disgusting...
Imagine, for gay males, the thought of having sex with a women is equally disgusting.
As far as I can tell the purpose of this thread is to discuss how young people use the word ""gay" to describe anything rubbish. Although it's an unfortunate development, the word "gay" was firstly misappropriated to mean "homosexual" rather than "Happy". Therefore I find the whole thing ironic. Fred Flintstone hasn't been able to have a "gay old time" without sniggers from the back for quite a while.
On May 10 2011 20:13 jacen wrote: btw: Niel Patrick Harris is also gay
Is he? The more I know.
Yes he is. At least he is attending public events with his boyfriend, gives interview about him being gay and is in some sort of gay community (forgot what exactly).
Of course he could just be lying, but why would he.
Racism/discrimination *can* be linked to inexperience or plain ole ignorance. Do you ever think we'll get rid of either of those things? No. However, I sure am glad for people like Mr Mckellen. Knowledge is power and I DON'T HAVE THE POWA BUT I SURE DO WANT IT! When I was a high school kid I had some assumptions about gay people and whatnot. Later I found out some of my closest friends were gay. Not the stereotypical lisp and flamboyant personalities. Guys and gals exactly like me. OMG GAY PEOPLE AREN'T DIFFERENT WAAAAT? Those silly misconceptions I had went right out the window hahahaah(even though such things should have been obvious)
As a sad side note, derogatory negative gay slang occasionally slips out of my mouth as a curseword. In my head I know it's wrong and as a conscious choice I choose NOT to say it and yet it still comes out in intense moments of anger or emotion. I still don't really get that and tis shameful.
The illegal Mexicans flooding into the USA are on a whole FAR more homophobic than the average white guy in the USA.Something left wing liberals try to ignore.As those Mexicans grow in population more and more thus homophobia will start getting more prevalent.
Similar thing is happening in the UK with the muslim and african immigrants over there , far less tolerant due to cultural issues.These are facts.
On May 10 2011 21:14 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: The illegal Mexicans flooding into the USA are on a whole FAR more homophobic than the average white guy in the USA.Something left wing liberals try to ignore.As those Mexicans grow in population more and more thus homophobia will start getting more prevalent.
Similar thing is happening in the UK with the muslim and african immigrants over there , far less tolerant due to cultural issues.These are facts.
I don't see how people see someone else's sexual gender preferences disgusting, lol. (I don't say sexual preferences because some people have very twisted and harmful sexual preferences...) It's just a preference. The more you know people with different preferences of whatever sort, the more you realize they are pretty much just like you.
As for the education effort, I think it's great. Many people who may not /hate/ the LGBT community may still have subconscious prejudices as a result of cultural things-- like using gay in a derogatory way, or from people in their lives who are prejudice. Reminding students that people are people no matter their race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or beliefs, and asking them to think about their words and actions can only have a positive impact.
On May 10 2011 21:14 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: The illegal Mexicans flooding into the USA are on a whole FAR more homophobic than the average white guy in the USA.Something left wing liberals try to ignore.As those Mexicans grow in population more and more thus homophobia will start getting more prevalent.
Similar thing is happening in the UK with the muslim and african immigrants over there , far less tolerant due to cultural issues.These are facts.
On May 10 2011 21:14 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: The illegal Mexicans flooding into the USA are on a whole FAR more homophobic than the average white guy in the USA.Something left wing liberals try to ignore.As those Mexicans grow in population more and more thus homophobia will start getting more prevalent.
Similar thing is happening in the UK with the muslim and african immigrants over there , far less tolerant due to cultural issues.These are facts.
Homophobia's bad but racism is ok right?
Demographics and statistics are not racism.
The conclusions you draw are not founded in any fact. You could just as easily argue that as this group is exposed to a less conservative culture, they will in fact begin to lose these prejudices. It's evident that many groups that migrate to the US lose many characteristics of their original cultures and become more and more 'American' as generations pass.
On May 10 2011 21:14 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: The illegal Mexicans flooding into the USA are on a whole FAR more homophobic than the average white guy in the USA.Something left wing liberals try to ignore.As those Mexicans grow in population more and more thus homophobia will start getting more prevalent.
Similar thing is happening in the UK with the muslim and african immigrants over there , far less tolerant due to cultural issues.These are facts.
Homophobia's bad but racism is ok right?
Please , your ignorance of basic facts is frightening.
People who identify themselves with the Democratic party tend to be more tolerant toward homosexuality. Republicans are less likely to accept homosexuality than Democrats. Among major ethnic groups, Hispanics are less tolerant to homosexuality: only 31 percent of Hispanic respondents believed homosexual behavior is acceptable (Kaiser/Pew, June 2002, Hispanics, 2,929).
On May 10 2011 21:14 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: The illegal Mexicans flooding into the USA are on a whole FAR more homophobic than the average white guy in the USA.Something left wing liberals try to ignore.As those Mexicans grow in population more and more thus homophobia will start getting more prevalent.
Similar thing is happening in the UK with the muslim and african immigrants over there , far less tolerant due to cultural issues.These are facts.
Yeah, those damn liberals should be blaming the immigrants for the white people being homophobic.
They took our tolerance!
While I agree that there's probably more homophobic people with different cultural backgrounds that come to our countries (than native born people), there's plenty of people who were born and raised by people whose families have lived in these countries for hundreds of years, and are just as homophobic as the immigrants.
I'm not even sure why you brought this up in the first place. You can't just lay the blame on someone else, and refuse to improve yourself because they aren't.
On May 10 2011 21:14 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: The illegal Mexicans flooding into the USA are on a whole FAR more homophobic than the average white guy in the USA.Something left wing liberals try to ignore.As those Mexicans grow in population more and more thus homophobia will start getting more prevalent.
Similar thing is happening in the UK with the muslim and african immigrants over there , far less tolerant due to cultural issues.These are facts.
Homophobia's bad but racism is ok right?
Demographics and statistics are not racism.
Depends how you use them, he's suggesting that immigrants are responsible for homophobia and by posting it here links them with the above bashing. The post's intent is pretty much in line with any politically charged post i've seen from nettles who loves throwing his far right wing agenda around trying to provoke people. 'These are facts' is such a cop-out, his post wasn't relevant. He just brought immigrants into it cause he loves his 'white australia' (america in this case) and saw a way to paint immigrants in a bad light behind the veil of spreading 'facts'.
On May 10 2011 21:39 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Please , your ignorance of basic facts is frightening.
I never said it wasn't true but why post it unless you're pushing some other agenda? I'm sure there are plenty of other facts about homophobia on the web that you could randomly post here.
On May 10 2011 21:14 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: The illegal Mexicans flooding into the USA are on a whole FAR more homophobic than the average white guy in the USA.Something left wing liberals try to ignore.As those Mexicans grow in population more and more thus homophobia will start getting more prevalent.
Similar thing is happening in the UK with the muslim and african immigrants over there , far less tolerant due to cultural issues.These are facts.
Homophobia's bad but racism is ok right?
Demographics and statistics are not racism.
1) A fact is not one just because you say it is. 2) We have no statistics here, but even if we did I've never seen a debate being resolved using statistics. You can provide statistics for any argument while rubbishing those of your opponent. 3) Demographics are just statistics so the same point applies, you just favoured tautology to reinforce your point.
It is plainly true that Christianity and Islam explictly forbids homosexuality, and this causes some people of all races to have homophobic views. It happens to be that those people who are immigrants to the UK and USA are more religeous than the populations which have historically lived there.
What's the phobia for being scared of religeous people, or since it's a rational fear does the word not exist?
On May 10 2011 21:44 Scarecrow wrote: I never said it wasn't true but why post it unless you're pushing some other agenda? I'm sure there are plenty of other facts about homophobia on the web that you could randomly post here.
No agenda , just saying expect those countries to become more homophobic as time moves on due to the reasons i mentioned before.
On May 10 2011 20:03 Black[CAT] wrote: Oooo... Only now i knew that he was gay... No matter what he does, he still wont change my mind that liking another dude's penis is disgusting...
Imagine, for gay males, the thought of having sex with a women is equally disgusting.
On May 10 2011 21:44 Scarecrow wrote: I never said it wasn't true but why post it unless you're pushing some other agenda? I'm sure there are plenty of other facts about homophobia on the web that you could randomly post here.
No agenda , just saying expect those countries to become more homophobic as time moves on due to the reasons i mentioned before.
What relevance does this have to the topic at hand?
Homophobia is idiotic and Mckellen is awesome. But I don't think using the word like that is so bad. I don't think any more about gay people when I say that something is gay than I think about fucking when I say fuck. The usage of that curse word has never made me think any less about fucking, that's for sure. That being said, I try not to use the word gay like that when I'm with friends who are gay, so I suppose it's a bad habit.
Edit: Just wanted to make it clear that I have nothing but contempt for people who are homophobic. For me it's as barbaric as being racist.
On May 10 2011 21:14 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: The illegal Mexicans flooding into the USA are on a whole FAR more homophobic than the average white guy in the USA.Something left wing liberals try to ignore.As those Mexicans grow in population more and more thus homophobia will start getting more prevalent.
Similar thing is happening in the UK with the muslim and african immigrants over there , far less tolerant due to cultural issues.These are facts.
Ignore? I think you're the one missing the issue.
It may very well be the case that that may be the breakdown of which ethnicities are the most intolerant.
However, the homophobia of one group doesn't justify or allow us to ignore the homophobia of another, and we have plenty of ultra-conservative, intolerant, (and often religious) nutjobs in our country who think homosexuality is an atrocity... and this is completely independent of how many illegal Mexicans exist in our country.
The illegal Mexicans aren't the ones running for public office and trying to pass laws denying gay rights. They aren't the ones reporting the news in an intolerant, closed-minded manner either. We should work to educate everyone on the subject of equality (regardless of their ethnicity), and I really don't think that anyone (especially liberals, lmao) is explicitly saying to ignore the intolerance of aliens. Watch Fox News some time, when Bill O'Reilly goes off on one of his rants about how gay behavior shouldn't even be recognized in schools because it's not normal.
Here ya go:
These are the types of people who spread their ignorance and intolerance like wildfire. These are the people we have to be most worried about.
On May 10 2011 23:08 deathly rat wrote: That guy from Fox news would never work again in the UK after a broadcast like that.
That's typical Fox news. I mean, some Fox news news anchor was espousing some "deather" theories last week (i.e. bin Laden not dead or died years ago and is now being used for political means).
On May 10 2011 21:14 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: The illegal Mexicans flooding into the USA are on a whole FAR more homophobic than the average white guy in the USA.Something left wing liberals try to ignore.As those Mexicans grow in population more and more thus homophobia will start getting more prevalent.
Similar thing is happening in the UK with the muslim and african immigrants over there , far less tolerant due to cultural issues.These are facts.
no they arent
and thanks for bringing racism into a topic about being more understanding.
On May 10 2011 21:14 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: The illegal Mexicans flooding into the USA are on a whole FAR more homophobic than the average white guy in the USA.Something left wing liberals try to ignore.As those Mexicans grow in population more and more thus homophobia will start getting more prevalent.
Similar thing is happening in the UK with the muslim and african immigrants over there , far less tolerant due to cultural issues.These are facts.
no they arent
and thanks for bringing racism into a topic about being more understanding.
Naw its good, his arguement was 'she thinks homosexuality is wrong, therefore she thinks we should legalize drugs, therefore she is wrong about homosexuality'
On May 11 2011 04:34 xccam wrote: Naw its good, his arguement was 'she thinks homosexuality is wrong, therefore she thinks we should legalize drugs, therefore she is wrong about homosexuality'
His use of a strawman arguement was exquisite.
She knocked down his strawman perfectly during the last line of the video, where she pointed out how being homosexual *isn't* illegal. lol.
On May 10 2011 21:14 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: The illegal Mexicans flooding into the USA are on a whole FAR more homophobic than the average white guy in the USA.Something left wing liberals try to ignore.As those Mexicans grow in population more and more thus homophobia will start getting more prevalent.
Similar thing is happening in the UK with the muslim and african immigrants over there , far less tolerant due to cultural issues.These are facts.
Ignore? I think you're the one missing the issue.
It may very well be the case that that may be the breakdown of which ethnicities are the most intolerant.
However, the homophobia of one group doesn't justify or allow us to ignore the homophobia of another, and we have plenty of ultra-conservative, intolerant, (and often religious) nutjobs in our country who think homosexuality is an atrocity... and this is completely independent of how many illegal Mexicans exist in our country.
The illegal Mexicans aren't the ones running for public office and trying to pass laws denying gay rights. They aren't the ones reporting the news in an intolerant, closed-minded manner either. We should work to educate everyone on the subject of equality (regardless of their ethnicity), and I really don't think that anyone (especially liberals, lmao) is explicitly saying to ignore the intolerance of aliens. Watch Fox News some time, when Bill O'Reilly goes off on one of his rants about how gay behavior shouldn't even be recognized in schools because it's not normal.
These are the types of people who spread their ignorance and intolerance like wildfire. These are the people we have to be most worried about.
Ugh. That video pisses me off so much.
"This isn't about homosexuality being wrong! It's about sexuality displays not being [i]appropriate[i] in high school!" "But you would be okay with the cutest couple being heterosexual?" "Yes, because that's the norm!"
It just pisses me off so much how with any gay issue, the anti-gay folks always try to paint their position as stemming from something other than discrimination - but when you get down to it, their arguments always boil down to "they're a fuckin queer!"
On May 10 2011 21:14 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: The illegal Mexicans flooding into the USA are on a whole FAR more homophobic than the average white guy in the USA.Something left wing liberals try to ignore.As those Mexicans grow in population more and more thus homophobia will start getting more prevalent.
Similar thing is happening in the UK with the muslim and african immigrants over there , far less tolerant due to cultural issues.These are facts.
Ignore? I think you're the one missing the issue.
It may very well be the case that that may be the breakdown of which ethnicities are the most intolerant.
However, the homophobia of one group doesn't justify or allow us to ignore the homophobia of another, and we have plenty of ultra-conservative, intolerant, (and often religious) nutjobs in our country who think homosexuality is an atrocity... and this is completely independent of how many illegal Mexicans exist in our country.
The illegal Mexicans aren't the ones running for public office and trying to pass laws denying gay rights. They aren't the ones reporting the news in an intolerant, closed-minded manner either. We should work to educate everyone on the subject of equality (regardless of their ethnicity), and I really don't think that anyone (especially liberals, lmao) is explicitly saying to ignore the intolerance of aliens. Watch Fox News some time, when Bill O'Reilly goes off on one of his rants about how gay behavior shouldn't even be recognized in schools because it's not normal.
These are the types of people who spread their ignorance and intolerance like wildfire. These are the people we have to be most worried about.
Ugh. That video pisses me off so much.
"This isn't about homosexuality being wrong! It's about sexuality displays not being [i]appropriate[i] in high school!" "But you would be okay with the cutest couple being heterosexual?" "Yes, because that's the norm!"
It just pisses me off so much how with any gay issue, the anti-gay folks always try to paint their position as stemming from something other than discrimination - but when you get down to it, their arguments always boil down to "they're a fuckin queer!"
Look, I am gay, and I am not actually offended by this video. Both sides have valid points.
On May 11 2011 11:45 Radical wrote: I like how gay bashers hate gays, and then people hate gay bashers for hating gays. it's like, stop the hate guys.
Careful. I don't know that people who disagree with gay-bashing are hating. From my experience, it is more a general frustration that survival of the fittest isn't working.
On topic, Ian McKellan is possibly one of the greatest men alive. Man is a legend and deserves every bit of respect coming his way.
On May 10 2011 23:10 GHOSTCLAW wrote: Thank you so much for putting this in blogs instead of general
I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to imply here.
This means he doesn't have to moderate/worry about it getting out of hand as the feeling of something in a blog means a lot different then what would happen if you put this is general.
I so wish that I could support gay marrage but everything I've seen from the gay rights movement has done nothing but detest it more. not the people themselves but the rights movement.
I'm actually slightly homophobic, but I have absolutely no problems with homosexuals, legalizing homosexual marriage, etc. I really don't see a valid argument against it, since it really boils down to accepted societal norms... There is true persecution against them, and it's truly morally wrong...
I don't think it's so much that people hate gay bashers for hating gays for that in itself--it's more that gay bashers are truly ignorant, as I see no legitimate reason to hate on them, other than personal squeamishness because it doesn't follow socially accepted rules, or something of the ilk.
On May 11 2011 11:57 Z3kk wrote:I don't think it's so much that people hate gay bashers for hating gays for that in itself--it's more that gay bashers are truly ignorant, as I see no legitimate reason to hate on them, other than personal squeamishness because it doesn't follow socially accepted rules, or something of the ilk.
That's exactly my point though: Gay bashers hate gay people because they just don't understand a gay person's point of view, just like people hate gay bashers because they just don't understand a gay basher's point of view. Both sides obviously have reasons for their opinions on the subject. What I just said is a very simplified version of the idea I'm trying to get across, but hopefully you get my point.
Edit: maybe this will clarify what I'm trying to say a bit more. What you just said can be paraphrased as "I don't hate gay bashers, what they do is just wrong." Now imagine that the other way around: "I don't hate gays, what they do is just wrong." See the similarity?
On May 10 2011 23:10 GHOSTCLAW wrote: Thank you so much for putting this in blogs instead of general
I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to imply here.
This means he doesn't have to moderate/worry about it getting out of hand as the feeling of something in a blog means a lot different then what would happen if you put this is general.
I so wish that I could support gay marrage but everything I've seen from the gay rights movement has done nothing but detest it more. not the people themselves but the rights movement.
I think I see what you mean. Unfortunately, extreme oppposition creates a no win situation. You are either drowned out or have to shout louder.
IMO the marriage movement is more about establishing legitimacy and acceptance than marriage itself. I mean in the 21st century who wants to get married anyway? Seems so outdated. I think it is more a push for equality than there being something special about marriage. Equality both legally and socially, hence the passion from both sides.
The fact is homosexuality is more accepted now than it has ever been. Those hanging on to outdated beliefes will fall by the wayside with time. The arguments for equality before the law are plain and clear. It is just really difficult to have a reasonable conversation when you have people shouting at you.
On May 11 2011 11:57 Z3kk wrote:I don't think it's so much that people hate gay bashers for hating gays for that in itself--it's more that gay bashers are truly ignorant, as I see no legitimate reason to hate on them, other than personal squeamishness because it doesn't follow socially accepted rules, or something of the ilk.
That's exactly my point though: Gay bashers hate gay people because they just don't understand a gay person's point of view, just like people hate gay bashers because they just don't understand a gay basher's point of view. Both sides obviously have reasons for their opinions on the subject. What I just said is a very simplified version of the idea I'm trying to get across, but hopefully you get my point.
Edit: maybe this will clarify what I'm trying to say a bit more. What you just said can be paraphrased as "I don't hate gay bashers, what they do is just wrong." Now imagine that the other way around: "I don't hate gays, what they do is just wrong." See the similarity?
Yeah, it is similar. As I mentioned above it comes from extreme opposition. Anybody staking out ground with no wiggle room will breed opppositions of the same stubborness.
I still believe that the response to gay-bashing is more reasoned and civil than the reverse. It stems from frustration with the ineffective nature of trying to educate people that are willfully ignorant. You can't reason with someone who is shouting over you.
On May 11 2011 12:03 Probulous wrote:It is just really difficult to have a reasonable conversation when you have people shouting at you.
That's a very good way of putting it.
Thanks. It applies to all aspects of life and is something I think we are losing as a society. Tolerance is a bad word and you can't discuss something without tolerating a person's point of view. You may not agree with it but you can at least accept their right to have one.
Problem is now more than ever, if you can't get your message across in 30 seconds it's irrelevant. That is why I love what Ian is doing. He is taking the time to confront these ignorant view points and trying to educate people. Whether it works is another thing but full credit to him for trying.
On May 11 2011 11:57 Z3kk wrote:I don't think it's so much that people hate gay bashers for hating gays for that in itself--it's more that gay bashers are truly ignorant, as I see no legitimate reason to hate on them, other than personal squeamishness because it doesn't follow socially accepted rules, or something of the ilk.
That's exactly my point though: Gay bashers hate gay people because they just don't understand a gay person's point of view, just like people hate gay bashers because they just don't understand a gay basher's point of view. Both sides obviously have reasons for their opinions on the subject. What I just said is a very simplified version of the idea I'm trying to get across, but hopefully you get my point.
Edit: maybe this will clarify what I'm trying to say a bit more. What you just said can be paraphrased as "I don't hate gay bashers, what they do is just wrong." Now imagine that the other way around: "I don't hate gays, what they do is just wrong." See the similarity?
I definitely hear you, but is gay bashing not morally wrong? I mean, people bash on them for no concrete reason whatsoever other than that it is against their preconceived personal/societal beliefs. Nothing more. People who respond negatively towards them because it's indicative of a fundamental lack of tolerance. It's an absolute statement, but really there is no other answer as far as I can see. Please enlighten me if I've missed something though :/
On May 10 2011 21:14 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: The illegal Mexicans flooding into the USA are on a whole FAR more homophobic than the average white guy in the USA.Something left wing liberals try to ignore.As those Mexicans grow in population more and more thus homophobia will start getting more prevalent.
Similar thing is happening in the UK with the muslim and african immigrants over there , far less tolerant due to cultural issues.These are facts.
Homophobia's bad but racism is ok right?
Please , your ignorance of basic facts is frightening.
People who identify themselves with the Democratic party tend to be more tolerant toward homosexuality. Republicans are less likely to accept homosexuality than Democrats. Among major ethnic groups, Hispanics are less tolerant to homosexuality: only 31 percent of Hispanic respondents believed homosexual behavior is acceptable (Kaiser/Pew, June 2002, Hispanics, 2,929).
A. That's still racist. That poll says nothing about illegal immigrants, way to assume that Mexicans represented in a poll suddenly equate illegal immigrants, or that that the views of illegal immigrants on homosexuality is a major contributor/definer of this "general" whole Mexicans' views.
B. You're still statistically wrong. There's nothing that actually supports your claim that they comparatively are "FAR more" intolerant than "the average white guy." If anything, the phrasing of your specific claim of "far more" suggests that you're arguing for a statistically significant difference between the two, but no statistical comparison is given by you or proven by you, let alone the correct analysis to validate the conclusion of that comparison as mathematically relevant.
C. You have zero proof of causality, ie that this trend is "due to cultural issues." Correlation is obviously not causation, to quote yourself, "your ignorance of basic facts is frightening."
On May 10 2011 20:30 deathly rat wrote: Hating gay people is indefensible.
As far as I can tell the purpose of this thread is to discuss how young people use the word ""gay" to describe anything rubbish. Although it's an unfortunate development, the word "gay" was firstly misappropriated to mean "homosexual" rather than "Happy". Therefore I find the whole thing ironic. Fred Flintstone hasn't been able to have a "gay old time" without sniggers from the back for quite a while.
Agreed. On a related note, it is analogous to the misappropriation of the term faggot as well, as least in colloquial usage. Though when this started is beyond me.
on topic though, it's nice to see mckellen making rounds like this. I would imagine its only a matter of time before people start to realize homosexuality is in no way adverse or contagious (as some people seem to believe =[ ). Awareness is the start to understanding!
On May 10 2011 23:10 GHOSTCLAW wrote: Thank you so much for putting this in blogs instead of general
I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to imply here.
This means he doesn't have to moderate/worry about it getting out of hand as the feeling of something in a blog means a lot different then what would happen if you put this is general.
I so wish that I could support gay marrage but everything I've seen from the gay rights movement has done nothing but detest it more. not the people themselves but the rights movement.
I think I see what you mean. Unfortunately, extreme oppposition creates a no win situation. You are either drowned out or have to shout louder.
IMO the marriage movement is more about establishing legitimacy and acceptance than marriage itself. I mean in the 21st century who wants to get married anyway? Seems so outdated. I think it is more a push for equality than there being something special about marriage. Equality both legally and socially, hence the passion from both sides.
The fact is homosexuality is more accepted now than it has ever been. Those hanging on to outdated beliefes will fall by the wayside with time. The arguments for equality before the law are plain and clear. It is just really difficult to have a reasonable conversation when you have people shouting at you.
And that theres why I hate it so much (not you btw) In my eyes at least marriage has been a bastion of the church and has never been about the state. The state just recognized the marriages as being successful and tried to help out families which at that time was just between a man and a women and didn't have all these other complications to it.
I guess I'm just trying to say I don't like how the gay rights movement thinks its got to fight the church directly, the arrogance on both sides, and the way people don't really care about the subject but just support it because its popular. I had a Debate on it that I was assigned to and didn't pick it because I was the only person who was willing(stupid) to take it and when I crushed my opponent everyone started hating on me for a week because of it.
On May 10 2011 23:10 GHOSTCLAW wrote: Thank you so much for putting this in blogs instead of general
I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to imply here.
This means he doesn't have to moderate/worry about it getting out of hand as the feeling of something in a blog means a lot different then what would happen if you put this is general.
I so wish that I could support gay marrage but everything I've seen from the gay rights movement has done nothing but detest it more. not the people themselves but the rights movement.
I think I see what you mean. Unfortunately, extreme oppposition creates a no win situation. You are either drowned out or have to shout louder.
IMO the marriage movement is more about establishing legitimacy and acceptance than marriage itself. I mean in the 21st century who wants to get married anyway? Seems so outdated. I think it is more a push for equality than there being something special about marriage. Equality both legally and socially, hence the passion from both sides.
The fact is homosexuality is more accepted now than it has ever been. Those hanging on to outdated beliefes will fall by the wayside with time. The arguments for equality before the law are plain and clear. It is just really difficult to have a reasonable conversation when you have people shouting at you.
And that theres why I hate it so much (not you btw) In my eyes at least marriage has been a bastion of the church and has never been about the state. The state just recognized the marriages as being successful and tried to help out families which at that time was just between a man and a women and didn't have all these other complications to it.
I guess I'm just trying to say I don't like how the gay rights movement thinks its got to fight the church directly, the arrogance on both sides, and the way people don't really care about the subject but just support it because its popular. I had a Debate on it that I was assigned to and didn't pick it because I was the only person who was willing(stupid) to take it and when I crushed my opponent everyone started hating on me for a week because of it.
I don't hate you either mate
The problem though is that as someone who supports equal rights, regardless of sexuality, gender, race, hell maybe even hair colour (not sure bout them rangers though ); you have to make your point heard.
As you say the government has long supported the church's position that marriage and the associated family structure is the foundation of society. Legally, and economically. In Aus at least there are tax breaks and family support benefits for families that are specifically targeted at supporting the family structure.
Any attack on this principle, which gay marraige would is seen as, is met with vitriol and a claim to tradition. What made our coutnry great etc etc. People fail to see that this is a question about a person's right to live their life without government interference.
It's sort of weird that it is being driven by the left side of politics given the right's propensity to do away with government all together. Anyway, fact is that this will change. People will look back at these arguments much like how we look back at the race arguments of our grandparents and wonder how we tried to justify it.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GClBG.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.jossd.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/celebrity-pictures-harris-more-chicks.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/195273_532922582_4083507_n.jpg)
); you have to make your point heard. 
