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*spoilers for TSL3, please don't read if you don't want some of the games spoiled*
Man, the TSL has been so exciting so far. Upsets abound, and the games have been fantastic. I throughly enjoyed all the matches, but after watching IdrA vs CrunCher, I couldn't help but to be depressed. IdrA has always been the zerg to look up to in the west if you played a macro style, even if he isn't necessarily the most mannered guy in the world. I watched as IdrA took over an entire map, had scores of drones, tons of hatches, creep everywhere and a flood of corupptors, but he still couldn't take out a colossus/void ray death ball.
Reading through Team Liquid today, I see multitudes of people commenting on the game, and a ton of people insulting IdrA for playing so poorly, and I just hang my head. In what world is that playing poorly? What was he supposed to do, exactly? Even though IdrA was playing very well, it never looked at any point like he could win because the protoss decided he doesn't want to take any risks.
I'll be the first to say, I dislike balance complaints. Sure, it's important to let blizzard know that some things may be imbalanced, but I believe it's our job as players to play with what we've been given after you give some feedback to the developers. I don't necessarily think the game needs to be changed in any way. I know the new infestor change might help with this problem, and I really hope it does. But as of now, I really am frustrated with Zerg vs Protoss. I dislike the idea that some zergs throw around that you have to win in the midgame, but to be honest, looking at that IdrA vs CrunCher game, I don't know if a zerg can win with the current "standard" play once a protoss reaches a certain unit composition. I got frustrated while laddering earlier and decided to play a few games as protoss and both games versus zerg, I never felt for a second that I could lose, which is fun, but frustrated me even more as a zerg player.
I haven't lost hope, mutalisk stacking wasn't figured out for something like 6 or 7 years in Brood War, who's to say something isn't going to come around to help out zergs? That's what I'm waiting for. That one guy to come around and show all the zergs out there how to do it. So I'm sitting here, sitting, waiting, wishing for a zerg hero, and I'm hoping he doesn't wait till' heart of the swarm to come around...
 
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umm.. just because IdrA is getting owned left and right, doesnt mean at all zerg cant compete.. IdrA just cant adapt.
Look at Sen or LosirA and tell me they cant beat protoss.. and those 2 are just the ones winning in the most recent (within 2 weeks) GSL events.. They are making ZvP look like cake.. Not to mention Mondragon.
instead of QQing about how bad zerg is because your hero cant win, why not actually watch other zerg players dominate everyone except MC..
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On March 29 2011 12:42 Skyze wrote:
umm.. just because IdrA is getting owned left and right, doesnt mean at all zerg cant compete.. IdrA just cant adapt.
Look at Sen or LosirA and tell me they cant beat protoss.. and those 2 are just the ones winning in the most recent (within 2 weeks) GSL events.. They are making ZvP look like cake.. Not to mention Mondragon.
instead of QQing about how bad zerg is because your hero cant win, why not actually watch other zerg players dominate everyone except MC..
No zerg player is dominating. Most zerg players, including Sen and Losira, both have relatively small amounts of accomplishments to their name.
There hasn't been anyone yet who's able to show consistent and repeated results as Zerg, IdrA is probably the closest. Not that it's a reflect of balance, but it's hard to look up to any Zerg players when most of them are struggling to be consistent.
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I agree, sometimes in the currently volatile world of StarCraft 2 you need to look elsewhere for your heroes. More recently, Sen played very well in the GSLWC and Mondragon convincingly took out a Protoss (who actually used the Stargate style that Idra so detests) in two games during the TSL. Both games were very entertaining to watch and will definitely inspire even the most downhearted Zerg.
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On March 29 2011 12:42 Skyze wrote:
umm.. just because IdrA is getting owned left and right, doesnt mean at all zerg cant compete.. IdrA just cant adapt.
Look at Sen or LosirA and tell me they cant beat protoss.. and those 2 are just the ones winning in the most recent (within 2 weeks) GSL events.. They are making ZvP look like cake.. Not to mention Mondragon.
instead of QQing about how bad zerg is because your hero cant win, why not actually watch other zerg players dominate everyone except MC..
Did you read the post at all? People like you are half the reason balance is such a weak topic. Half are the people who complain every time they lose a game, and you're part of the other half, people who see anything that looks like a balance complaint and start flaming because you have nothing better to do.
I said I'm frustrated with the state of ZvP, not that it was imbalanced, and I want to see a zerg player come along and show everyone how to beat that late game deathball. And I have watched Sen and Losira, and I've yet to see them take out that kind of composition handily. The game ends well before that point or they lose.
But thanks for spewing ignorance because you saw someone was frustrated. I appreciate it.
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On March 29 2011 12:49 ReketSomething wrote:Morrow will dominate MC. Don't worry! + Show Spoiler +and morrow's zvp is his worst matchup while MC;s PvZ is sickening! + Show Spoiler +and therefore if MC wins its no surprise but if morrow wins its revolutionary! + Show Spoiler +
I would have to say that MorroW's ZvZ is his worst matchup, his ZvP is actually fairly strong, as far as ZvP's go.
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This didn't really come across as QQ to me Skyze. There were a ton of threads asking who is the protoss hero until MC won GSL3. Now that Idra is losing momentum its legitimate to wonder what the next zerg will bring.
Part of why GSL5 was so hyped and such a disappointment was because we all expected JulyZerg to bring about the new age. He was going to show that you can attack before the 40 minute mark and not be "all-in", that you can use your production advantage to catch up on workers instead of get ahead.
Unfortunately MC is in a league of his own so you buggers have to wait a while longer until he starts slumping. 
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im an idra fan but he did play badly in those games tbh. idra is really bad against protoss, you need really good decision making in ZvP and it is a pretty tough matchup atm (wouldn't say imbalanced but zergs are still figuring the game out vs these new strategies and timings and it takes time to adapt). imo Ret's macro and mechanics are actually better than idra's, i've seen idra with overmins a lot especially in zvt in midgame: yes your gas expenditure is extremely high compared to mineral expenditure at this stage but why not take a quicker base solely for the gas (common in bw) or make a ton of lings and go for an attack, better than just having minerals sitting there uselessly...
if Ret really commits to training really hard he can definitely dominate everyone, but he always had motivation problems in BW (as well?). SEn is also ridiculously good, and MorroW is getting better and better and has an amazing work ethic
idra lost game 1 vs cruncher cuz he was too passive. He needed to do drops just like he did on terminus. Honestly I have no idea why idra went roach hydra corruptor because this simply doesnt work vs void collosus mass on shakuras cross positions since you can't attack due to the slowness of hydralisks off creep. Muta tech switches are good since all you want to do is keep the void/collosus numbers down and believe it or not phoenixes are quite awful vs muta unless he makes about 5-6 of them since you can get at least one volley on them before they start kiting the mutas so you can kill them after 2-3 fakeouts. Forcing the protoss to make phoenixes is a victory in itself since it makes it much harder for him to deal with your ground army which should also be picking away at the protoss ball.
Game 3 was just awful overdroning, not much to say about that one... he made 7 drones when he say a huge army coming out and his existing units weren't even enough to hold that attack nevermind a 6gate. Pretty poor performance imo and it was really disappointing
edit: sorta addressed this in another post if you care for more analysis http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=138967¤tpage=290#5800
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Can we petition Artosis to switch back to Zerg? Please? They buffed his favorite unit, the Infestor. Now is the time!
Let's all spam his Twitter or something and maybe he'll succumb to the pressure of the masses.
Losira is really fun to watch. He's pretty aggressive, but not so much as July. And pretty macro-based, but not as much as IdrA or NesTea. I like that. But uh, I totally fell in love with SlayerS_Min. Soooo looking forward to his Code A matches.
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TSL has given me a new Zerg hero: mondragon. GOOOO MONDI!!!!!!
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On March 29 2011 12:59 TheLink wrote:Unfortunately MC is in a league of his own so you buggers have to wait a while longer until he starts slumping.
He's good, no doubt, but I don't think he's in a league of his own. He has very good mechanics, and his timing attacks are great, but I think if an opponent plays safe vs his timing attacks, he's going to be far less dominant in the very long games as I feel his strength is in his great unit control, and not necissarily his decision making. Perhaps I'm wrong, but from what I've seen, I think there will be another protoss to overtake him as the best protoss in the world soon.
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On March 29 2011 13:16 xaneda wrote:
im an idra fan but he did play badly in those games tbh. idra is really bad against protoss, you need really good decision making in ZvP and it is a pretty tough matchup atm (wouldn't say imbalanced but zergs are still figuring the game out vs these new strategies and timings and it takes time to adapt). imo Ret's macro and mechanics are actually better than idra's, i've seen idra with overmins a lot especially in zvt in midgame: yes your gas expenditure is extremely high compared to mineral expenditure at this stage but why not take a quicker base solely for the gas (common in bw) or make a ton of lings and go for an attack, better than just having minerals sitting there uselessly...
if Ret really commits to training really hard he can definitely dominate everyone, but he always had motivation problems in BW (as well?). SEn is also ridiculously good, and MorroW is getting better and better and has an amazing work ethic
idra lost game 1 vs cruncher cuz he was too passive. He needed to do drops just like he did on terminus. Honestly I have no idea why idra went roach hydra corruptor because this simply doesnt work vs void collosus mass on shakuras cross positions since you can't attack due to the slowness of hydralisks off creep. Muta tech switches are good since all you want to do is keep the void/collosus numbers down and believe it or not phoenixes are quite awful vs muta unless he makes about 5-6 of them since you can get at least one volley on them before they start kiting the mutas so you can kill them after 2-3 fakeouts
I'm sorry, but neither of those strategies would work. The problem is the protoss was sitting in his base, so drops wouldn't have done anything. Also, as the protoss was staying at home in a compact base, harassment provided by mutas are reduced. When it comes to the actual fight, mutas are a lot worse than corrupters when facing a protoss ball, so that would be wasted resources. I feel that saying IdrA played bad is a disservice even if you don't care for him, he played well but just couldn't deal with the army the protoss had.
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Never fear Mondragoon is here! If you've watched or know a little about Mondragoon, he is a very intelligent player and has very good game sense, something that many higher level players lack. I think he has the potential to do great, if he so chooses to practice enough.
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On March 29 2011 13:26 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 13:16 xaneda wrote:
im an idra fan but he did play badly in those games tbh. idra is really bad against protoss, you need really good decision making in ZvP and it is a pretty tough matchup atm (wouldn't say imbalanced but zergs are still figuring the game out vs these new strategies and timings and it takes time to adapt). imo Ret's macro and mechanics are actually better than idra's, i've seen idra with overmins a lot especially in zvt in midgame: yes your gas expenditure is extremely high compared to mineral expenditure at this stage but why not take a quicker base solely for the gas (common in bw) or make a ton of lings and go for an attack, better than just having minerals sitting there uselessly...
if Ret really commits to training really hard he can definitely dominate everyone, but he always had motivation problems in BW (as well?). SEn is also ridiculously good, and MorroW is getting better and better and has an amazing work ethic
idra lost game 1 vs cruncher cuz he was too passive. He needed to do drops just like he did on terminus. Honestly I have no idea why idra went roach hydra corruptor because this simply doesnt work vs void collosus mass on shakuras cross positions since you can't attack due to the slowness of hydralisks off creep. Muta tech switches are good since all you want to do is keep the void/collosus numbers down and believe it or not phoenixes are quite awful vs muta unless he makes about 5-6 of them since you can get at least one volley on them before they start kiting the mutas so you can kill them after 2-3 fakeouts I'm sorry, but neither of those strategies would work. The problem is the protoss was sitting in his base, so drops wouldn't have done anything. Also, as the protoss was staying at home in a compact base, harassment provided by mutas are reduced. When it comes to the actual fight, mutas are a lot worse than corrupters when facing a protoss ball, so that would be wasted resources. I feel that saying IdrA played bad is a disservice even if you don't care for him, he played well but just couldn't deal with the army the protoss had.
No. They would work. You realise this is how Zerg deals with this type of strategy? Go watch some DIMAGA replays, he was winning against this when this strategy first emerged and they were doing it on every map they could. He was sitting in his base on Terminus too and the drops worked, point is you drop multiple locations and do damage to wear him down. Also the mutas aren't for harassment, they are for fighting his army.
Its like fighting mech in brood war, you have to throw weak units at him with a huge econ (because voidray/collosus is very gas heavy he will max out MUCH slower and can't pressure so you can power drones) Muta tech switches and throwing roaches/corruptors at it to keep the ball down to prevent a critical mass (Which is what cruncher obtained...) is the key to winning. No doubt it is incredibly difficult, but the tactic and strategy idra used had 0% chance of success and he KNOWS this since hes played tons of pvz's on shakuras cross
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On March 29 2011 13:31 xaneda wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2011 13:26 Arisen wrote:On March 29 2011 13:16 xaneda wrote:
im an idra fan but he did play badly in those games tbh. idra is really bad against protoss, you need really good decision making in ZvP and it is a pretty tough matchup atm (wouldn't say imbalanced but zergs are still figuring the game out vs these new strategies and timings and it takes time to adapt). imo Ret's macro and mechanics are actually better than idra's, i've seen idra with overmins a lot especially in zvt in midgame: yes your gas expenditure is extremely high compared to mineral expenditure at this stage but why not take a quicker base solely for the gas (common in bw) or make a ton of lings and go for an attack, better than just having minerals sitting there uselessly...
if Ret really commits to training really hard he can definitely dominate everyone, but he always had motivation problems in BW (as well?). SEn is also ridiculously good, and MorroW is getting better and better and has an amazing work ethic
idra lost game 1 vs cruncher cuz he was too passive. He needed to do drops just like he did on terminus. Honestly I have no idea why idra went roach hydra corruptor because this simply doesnt work vs void collosus mass on shakuras cross positions since you can't attack due to the slowness of hydralisks off creep. Muta tech switches are good since all you want to do is keep the void/collosus numbers down and believe it or not phoenixes are quite awful vs muta unless he makes about 5-6 of them since you can get at least one volley on them before they start kiting the mutas so you can kill them after 2-3 fakeouts I'm sorry, but neither of those strategies would work. The problem is the protoss was sitting in his base, so drops wouldn't have done anything. Also, as the protoss was staying at home in a compact base, harassment provided by mutas are reduced. When it comes to the actual fight, mutas are a lot worse than corrupters when facing a protoss ball, so that would be wasted resources. I feel that saying IdrA played bad is a disservice even if you don't care for him, he played well but just couldn't deal with the army the protoss had. No. They would work. You realise this is how Zerg deals with this type of strategy? Go watch some DIMAGA replays, he was winning against this when this strategy first emerged and they were doing it on every map they could. He was sitting in his base on Terminus too and the drops worked, point is you drop multiple locations and do damage to wear him down. Also the mutas aren't for harassment, they are for fighting his army. Its like fighting mech in brood war, you have to throw weak units at him with a huge econ (because voidray/collosus is very gas heavy he will max out MUCH slower and can't pressure so you can power drones) Muta tech switches and throwing roaches/corruptors at it to keep the ball down to prevent a critical mass (Which is what cruncher obtained...) is the key to winning. No doubt it is incredibly difficult, but the tactic and strategy idra used had 0% chance of success and he KNOWS this since hes played tons of pvz's on shakuras cross
I have, and have watched Dimaga games and I watch him get bent over like just about every other zerg time in and time out. Sure, if the protoss takes risks, you can punish him for it, with drops, but if his entire army is sitting in his main which is very close to his natural and third, dropping isn't going to be very effective at all, as he has very small distances to travel. As for mutas, they cost the same gas as a corruptor and deal less damage, and die faster. They're not designed for fighting straight up, which is why you don't see people using them like this.
You hit the nail on the head saying that you can't let him reach critical mass. That's why the matchup is frustrating. Once he has that critical mass, it doesn't matter if you do own the entire map, you can't kill him. Yes, the analogy to mech tvz is a good one, as that's how it should be delt with, but that doesn't work. I've watched a lot of games where this "critical mass" is reached, and zerg can send waves after waves of units all they want, theyr'e not killing that ball unless there's an insanely long distance between you and the protoss. That's why zergs are frustrated with the matchup; there is a point where in the current metagame you can no longer win. So if a protoss seals himself up vs harassment and dedicates himself to staying safe, he's probably going to win. That's why I and a lot of other players are waiting for someone to come along and find a way to take down that ball of units, because no one has shown the ability to do so consistently thus far.
@chimp
I hope mondragon is the guy. He plays very well, and he's shown the capacity for being a tremendous player with fabulous decision making, and he's just a legendarily good player, and I know from talking to a bunch of people over at MYM he has a great ZvP, so here's to hoping for some games where he shows everyone how to take out that death ball.
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People bandwagon jump from one zerg to another just because they show results a couple times. First people jump to idra, then to fruitdealer, then to nestea, then to july, then to mondragon... None of these people are zerg heroes and none of them will be and we all know the reason why. It is truly disingenuous and dishonest to tell people the game is actually balanced when we have months of patches that keep buffing zerg and nerfing T and P. Are you gonna claim the game was balanced before all those patches? Of course not.
There's no point in debating honestly, there is a reality and you either accept it or deny it.
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mutas don't really die faster than corruptors, voidrays are actually better vs corruptors than mutas, but yeah i'm not saying its easy. I have seen dimaga lose and win in the same way though so it doesn't seem that reliable, imo some really refined timing attacks are needed vs this style. its pretty weak and hard to build up an army which is why protosses stopped doing it every game but on maps with easy 3 bases it is the best strategy imo. What I can say for sure though is that zergs need to come up with something new because what they're trying now isn't really working out
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I just had to. I'm sorry. 
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fJXWt.png)
Maybe with his NASL debut he will show us some sick play that zergs can follow up and build upon. I believe in you artosis! (that is if he decides to return to his roots of course)
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Well...There's always ROOTDestiny.
;D
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Do not expect a dominating zerg at this point of time. Maybe mondragon will fill the role a bit by doing his refusing to play lesser skill/known players bit. Heheh.
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On March 29 2011 14:34 Arisen wrote:
artosis plays protoss
But he used to play Zerg, and before that, he played Terran back in the Beta and in BW.
He's quite racially confused 
Anyways, I also have a hard time looking for a Zerg player who has a consistent strength in ZvP compared to his other matchups. It seems that a lot of Zerg players are judged on their strength in ZvZ and ZvT, yet it is assumed that ZvP is hard for pretty much anyone, and that the players who are talented in ZvP are also quite talented in ZvZ and ZvT by comparison.
I'm sure a Zerg hero will rise up soon. Back during GSL1, when Terran mech was dominating their way through the tournament, killing off Zergs left and right, Fruitdealer became the Zerg hero with a style crafted to pummel his way through the passive meching Terrans. Likewise, Nestea took up the reigns as the new Zerg hero in GSL2 when he had remarkably consistent play all the way to the finals, especially in ZvZ.
I predict that the next Zerg GSL champion will have our long-awaited Zerg revolution in ZvP, for he must be able to defeat the almighty MC and other scary Protoss before being crowned champion.
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Watch Sen vs Naniwa.
+ Show Spoiler +You thought Mondragon's roach vs Protoss air was new? Rofl. Also, Naniwa is a top top PvZ player. Far more indicative, (and far better series) than Mondragon vs Zeerax.
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On March 29 2011 15:57 cascades wrote:Watch Sen vs Naniwa. + Show Spoiler +You thought Mondragon's roach vs Protoss air was new? Rofl. Also, Naniwa is a top top PvZ player. Far more indicative, (and far better series) than Mondragon vs Zeerax.
What tournament was that so I can look it up? I've been loving Sen's ZvP.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
Idra legitimately played bad in game 1 though. Idra knows as well as anyone that you can't let protoss macro off 3 base. Yet he sat back and let protoss take a 3rd base. If zerg sees protoss taking a 3rd, he has to keep all-in ing protoss until one of them loses. That's just how the game works. But idra took the whole map instead and that just doesn't work.
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Look up to a real zerg player not one of these egotistical maniacs like idra. The strength of zerg players are their decision making, IdrA's weakest point, and its too bad Jaedeong doesn't play sc2 but I would follow mondragon or sen.
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On March 29 2011 16:29 T.O.P. wrote:
Idra legitimately played bad in game 1 though. Idra knows as well as anyone that you can't let protoss macro off 3 base. Yet he sat back and let protoss take a 3rd base. If zerg sees protoss taking a 3rd, he has to keep all-in ing protoss until one of them loses. That's just how the game works. But idra took the whole map instead and that just doesn't work.
You mean you wanted Idra to throw away a 300-food army in to two terrible chokes and then let the Protoss ball destroy what little he had left? There was no way Idra was going to break him in game 1. Cruncher was turtled up as perfect as can be. His deathball in the middle of his base nullified any drops and he was close enough to his 2nd/3rd base to just walk over there if he saw the Zerg approach.
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On March 29 2011 16:29 T.O.P. wrote:
Idra legitimately played bad in game 1 though. Idra knows as well as anyone that you can't let protoss macro off 3 base. Yet he sat back and let protoss take a 3rd base. If zerg sees protoss taking a 3rd, he has to keep all-in ing protoss until one of them loses. That's just how the game works. But idra took the whole map instead and that just doesn't work.
I think that says so much about why I and others want a dominant zerg to come out. I think it speeks volumes about how much we NEED someone to show us how to do it if you CAN'T let a protoss get three bases. How sad is that? 3 bases means you win? I refuse to believe that you NEED to all in to win just because the protoss decides to take three bases, there has to be some way to fight the end game ball, because if there isn't, then Zerg vs Protoss will forever be a bad matchup (until maybe hots). It just seems unfair if that is the case, that you can't play a macro style, you have to all in and hope you get lucky and the protoss plays greedy.
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I feel the same way. I've always been an IdrA fan simply because I liked his intelligence, coupled with skill and cockiness. You're allowed (e.g. MC) to be cocky as long as you produce results, imo. IdrA still has the most refined game mechanics I know and when he gets things his way, he is neigh unstoppable, but he is so fragile to the tiniest shift in mental advantage. I don't think I've ever seen IdrA come back from a bad position.
I still think a hard practicing IdrA who adopts and experiments with "new" play-styles could revolutionize Zerg. God, I hope he does.
I need a hero!
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Idra and sheth have monster stream views during the middle of the day they both can get 16k+ viewers.
I think most people want a zerg to do well since they have been the weak race since the release of sc2
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On May 08 2011 03:14 Zeroes wrote:I think most people want a zerg to do well since they have been the weak race since the release of sc2
Where do you people get this stuff? Zerg are just now beginning to experiment and regularly avoid themselves of the tactical and strategic options afforded by things like nydus and drop play.
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EPT
