"Just macro," is what I get told whenever I ask for help.
Look, I'm not good at this game, I've been long stuck in the top of bronze since the launch of SC2. To be fair that's because I often go long periods of time without playing and I lose whatever skill I build up. Yet with the start of ladder season 2 I've decided I want to not be awful. The ultimate goal is get good enough to serve as a respectable alternate for my CSL team come September. It's a big big undertaking but I feel I can do it. I have even taken up playing random on ladder while practicing Toss mostly in custom games. But that's not really the point of this.
As I look for the beginning of serious help most of what I see is pretty simplistic advice. "Keep your macro up, pylons and probes, scout," are the kin d of tips you see for most people at my level. "Bronze is pure cheese and 10 year olds," is the kind of sentiment that comes across. This has gotten especially worse since Destiny did his mass queens ladder experiment getting him all the way to diamond with the nothing but the infamous larva spawner. It was point and match for macro/mechanics in the eyes of many. Yet this experiment seems hollow in my eyes as anyone can pick off silver/gold players with high masters level transfusion micro.
Now I'm not saying anything is more important than macroing it up. I just think most people don't understand what actually goes on in the lower leagues and thus give very generic advice when many low level players are looking for something more than that. For instance despite it's reputation bronze is pretty devoid of cheese. Most cheesers have worked there way into silver and gold with easy victories.
So I decided I want to teach TL what bronze is like. I've fired up sc2gears and am collecting stats on all my games. woth the aim of collecting specific stats and information that gives us an accurate and detailed picture of low level play. Figure out what low level players actually struggle with regarding their specific races and matchups. Figure out what type of builds (strategies really, it's looser than builds) and techniques are popular and why they do or do not work.
So what I'm asking for is what would you want to see in such a piece? What do you want to learn and what would be helpful to look for? Let's create advice that is more helpful than, "build shit."
Nothing yet, I'm still in the process of gathering data to file a sufficient report. I just am looking for input as to what people would be interested in (if at all). I don't want to write up a piece on something that doesn't address what people are looking for.
The thing is, when it comes to concrete play, macro is area that would benefit people the most to improve upon. But this does not neccesarily make it sound advice, I really feel that mindset is the thing that will most rapidly improve your play.
For me, artificially raising my apm when nothing was happening, would make me strive to do more things, faster when I was actually playing.
The thing is, getting better at macro is really the single most effective way for bronze league players to improve. Looking for "more useful" advice is a moot point IMO.
I don't see how anyone who is willing to spend an hour or two a day for a few months could still be stuck in bronze. " Build shit" generally equates to working on your ability to produce lots of units quickly. If you can produce lots of units quickly you can make it out of bronze as you admitted yourself with the entire mass queen thing. There are plenty of resources which can help you learn how to do that. For example: Day[9] has made many exceptional podcasts/daily episodes which cover macro mechanics. The biggest thing is simply practice regularly with the goal of producing lots of units quickly. An individual with any semblance of intelligence will figure out that they need to:
-Gain resources quickly ---> build lots of workers -Spend resources quickly ---> build enough production structures to keep your resource intake <= spending without getting supply capped.
I think bronze leaguers should check out the Day[9] daily where he talks about the "mental checklist". If you watch that daily and practice for an hour or two a day for a month I would be amazed if you were still in bronze.
I think one thing to look for is the efficiency of the build. I have some RL friends who are Bronze/Silver players and their initial pylon never goes down when they have 100 minerals - it's always at like 130 or 150. And their hatchery first builds plant the hatchery when they're floating 500 minerals instead of the second they hit 300.
I'm not going to go as far as to say that if you don't get your hatchery down at exactly 300 minerals you are going to lose the game but these sort of things will eventually build up and will severely screw you up.
Additionally I think that's a statistic you can collect - though it will require watching and recording events from the replay. If the hatchery goes down at 450 minerals instead of 300 you can say that build was 150 minerals less efficient than it could have been - or whichever metric you decide is appropriate.
I think the biggest thing I see in bronze friends is they always stop making workers and just forget to build them for whatever reason. That tied into them just playing slowly and having idle workers. Usually all of this is built by simply playing more.
Destiny isn't even the first one to to do something like that. There was that one redditor who turtled and maxed out on stalkers every game with 0 micro, scouting, or reacting to his opponent in any way and he made it to diamond, too. Hell I personally made it out of bronze with "just macro".
Honestly I think any project which aims to help bronze players by instructing them to focus on something OTHER than their macro and possibly the ability to correctly execute 1 opener per matchup is going to do more harm than good. This is GOOD advice. If you're still having trouble, it's only because you're having a hard time applying it; I'll be glad to observe a game of you playing, if you want, and point out why it's not working for you.
On March 25 2011 02:27 Tercotta wrote: So what I'm asking for is what would you want to see in such a piece? What do you want to learn and what would be helpful to look for? Let's create advice that is more helpful than, "build shit." P.S. Lolzy bronze replays will be included.
I'd just like to see the next 10 games you play, not anything specific, just normal bronze league-matches.
"Just Macro" is so nice advice, however, it doesn't get you out of bronze necessarily. I happen to be proof of that... Now, that's not what I'd dare to say on my own - I'm too inexperienced to make such bold statement, but it's something most of my higher lvl friends say - that my problem is not macro.
So, I believe that some of the Bronze players might find themselves in the similar situation; their biggest issues may lie in completely separate areas. Of course, macro may be something in need of constant improvement, I'm just saying that in some cases it's not what loses the games, as even if you outmacro someone, you might lose for completelly different reasons.
I don't really know your specific case, so I don't want to say something as broad and general as "they're right, macro more."
However, I'll say this.
Even up to mid-diamond, I think the majority of games can be won by constantly building workers and constantly building units. If you don't ever float, get supply blocked, or otherwise screw up, you should just have a stronger army than the opponent's. With some scouting to react correctly to their opening, it's very unlikely that you'll lose a game.
I don't know what kind of advice you're looking for, but if you're looking for builds, there are "standard" builds for a reason. 3gate expand as protoss, 14gas 14pool as zerg, 2rax as terran are all useful. At higher levels, they might not appear in certain race-specific matchups, but it should suffice, again, all the way to diamond.
Alur commented on mindset earlier, and that's important. If the replays are what I suspect they are (they might not be!) then don't ever think "there's no way I could've held that off with the units I built." More likely the case is that you could've hammered out at least 1.5 times as many units, and held it off handily with proper play. I might be wrong, though.
Edit:
On March 25 2011 02:56 BabyToss! wrote: So, I believe that some of the Bronze players might find themselves in the similar situation; their biggest issues may lie in completely separate areas. Of course, macro may be something in need of constant improvement, I'm just saying that in some cases it's not what loses the games, as even if you outmacro someone, you might lose for completelly different reasons.
Again, I'm judging without replays, so this may not be true, but I find that unlikely. You should be able to 1a your units into the enemy and win with superior macro to a rather high skill level--even beyond top bronze. I'm waiting on the OP's replays.
Honestly I just don't agree. I have tons of reallife friends that are bronze, and when I watch them play, they lose because of macro. Honestly, the #1 thing I tell them is how many production facilities per base, and to be making units all the time out of those.
It's not uncommon for bronze players to be at 40 or 50 food by the 10 min mark. I strongly believe from my experiences watching my friends and obsing, that picking a simple, easy standard opener per matchup and working on macro and scouting is the best way for bronze players to improve.
I dunno, sometimes when I play 4v4 I get matched up with 3 bronze guys. It freaks me the fuck out when I see my teammates doing shit like building 2 cyber cores or waiting 30 seconds after they hit 11 scvs to build their first depot. And then, I scout the enemies base and I see some zerg going macro hatch extractor before pool and then I breathe a sigh of relief.
I strongly believe that the only thing that one needs to do to get out of bronze is to get a good/safe build order, memorize it, build shit. Heck, if you can make it to masters by just 4 gating in all matchups it should get you out of bronze.
On March 25 2011 02:27 Tercotta wrote: So what I'm asking for is what would you want to see in such a piece? What do you want to learn and what would be helpful to look for? Let's create advice that is more helpful than, "build shit." P.S. Lolzy bronze replays will be included.
I'd just like to see the next 10 games you play, not anything specific, just normal bronze league-matches.
On March 25 2011 03:03 ZeaL. wrote: I dunno, sometimes when I play 4v4 I get matched up with 3 bronze guys. It freaks me the fuck out when I see my teammates doing shit like building 2 cyber cores or waiting 30 seconds after they hit 11 scvs to build their first depot. And then, I scout the enemies base and I see some zerg going macro hatch extractor before pool and then I breathe a sigh of relief.
I strongly believe that the only thing that one needs to do to get out of bronze is to get a good/safe build order, memorize it, build shit. Heck, if you can make it to masters by just 4 gating in all matchups it should get you out of bronze.
4 gateways before core is a shockingly popular build order in bronze it seems.
i think the only other necessary piece of advice for getting up the divisions is being aware of threats and having better than dreadful mechanics. for example even that 'get to diamond on just stalkers and zero micro' wouldn't have worked had he chosen the wrong unit. the stalker is a decent general utility unit, had he picked the zealot one air unit would lose him the game and he also knew to get detection. an example of the mechanical ability would be to know to put units on attack move command instead of just move command. you are partially right in that just macro isn't exceptionally useful advice, its just that everything else is so extremely basic to those giving the advice they will omit it or forget to mention it. macro is of course the single most important thing though
On March 25 2011 03:03 ZeaL. wrote: I strongly believe that the only thing that one needs to do to get out of bronze is to get a good/safe build order, memorize it, build shit. Heck, if you can make it to masters by just 4 gating in all matchups it should get you out of bronze.
im in masters and i wish somebody could tell me a good safe build order
On March 25 2011 03:03 ZeaL. wrote: I strongly believe that the only thing that one needs to do to get out of bronze is to get a good/safe build order, memorize it, build shit. Heck, if you can make it to masters by just 4 gating in all matchups it should get you out of bronze.
im in masters and i wish somebody could tell me a good safe build order
safe for bronze is a lot different than safe for masters of course
I'm interested in this. I want to know your thoughts behind your in game decision making. From my experience of coaching my friends typical bronze play is where you see a Terran wall off with 4 depots before rax.
Ok, I'm going to be more clear because I feel that maybe some people are misunderstanding what I was trying to get at. My fault for not being clear enough. I don't think there is some super secret to get out of bronze.
My macro sucks, it's what keeps me down. After I posted this I won a TvZ with 3k mins banked. I could get out of bronze building nothing but reapers and medivacs if I could keep my money low.
But this is to get a general picture of low level play for everyone struggling at this level. Find specific problems with how specific races and matchups. If you look at my Terran stats and compare them with other stats of my Terran opponents you see everyone has similar issues. Thus we can create objectives more precise than "keep you money down." There are patterns at play. And figuring them out can be a big help for a large group of people.
The ultimate goal would be to create some sort of list of what low level and new players can expect when they play online. When you say, "build shit" you guys understand the connotations of what that means. A low level player may then think, "build what?"
On March 25 2011 02:47 -Frog- wrote: I think one thing to look for is the efficiency of the build. I have some RL friends who are Bronze/Silver players and their initial pylon never goes down when they have 100 minerals - it's always at like 130 or 150. And their hatchery first builds plant the hatchery when they're floating 500 minerals instead of the second they hit 300.
I'm not going to go as far as to say that if you don't get your hatchery down at exactly 300 minerals you are going to lose the game but these sort of things will eventually build up and will severely screw you up.
Additionally I think that's a statistic you can collect - though it will require watching and recording events from the replay. If the hatchery goes down at 450 minerals instead of 300 you can say that build was 150 minerals less efficient than it could have been - or whichever metric you decide is appropriate.
I like the sentiment. Trying to gather data and make an informed topic is great.
That said, I think there is a problem with your statement that "of course someone with masters level injection micro can beat silver/gold" but this doesn't help those in bronze. The idea is that you should have injections like his. His "injection micro" is not what makes him a good player; rather its his ability to hit injections on time while still doing a bunch of other stuff. If you want to advance, you should first focus on hitting those injections, aka macro, and then worry about being able to do the other stuff after.
On March 25 2011 03:18 Tercotta wrote: Ok, I'm going to be more clear because I feel that maybe some people are misunderstanding what I was trying to get at. My fault for not being clear enough. I don't think there is some super secret to get out of bronze.
My macro sucks, it's what keeps me down. After I posted this I won a TvZ with 3k mins banked. I could get out of bronze building nothing but reapers and medivacs if I could keep my money low.
But this is to get a general picture of low level play for everyone struggling at this level. Find specific problems with how specific races and matchups. If you look at my Terran stats and compare them with other stats of my Terran opponents you see everyone has similar issues. Thus we can create objectives more precise than "keep you money down." There are patterns at play. And figuring them out can be a big help for a large group of people.
The ultimate goal would be to create some sort of list of what low level and new players can expect when they play online. When you say, "build shit" you guys understand the connotations of what that means. A low level player may then think, "build what?"
Except there's no secret list. The biggest, best, most important thing you could do if you're aiming to improve as a player is to just improve your mechanics.
Even pros try constantly to improve their mechanics.
Mechanics, for the most part, refer to what people consider "macro."
A SPORTS ANALOGY, because, why not. When someone plays soccer, they don't bother with crap like formations, strategy, or anything at all first, other than learning to kick and pass the ball. A new soccer player is incapable of even doing that competently, and so that's what they practice. It's kinda important for everything else they want to do.
A bronze player is kinda like that--you can't even properly "kick the ball" yet. If you want a list, well, here it is:
-Never get supply blocked, more specifically, only build supply when you need it, so you're not wasting resources on supply you don't yet need. -Never float minerals (I mean, everyone does to an extent, but I mean, keep it under 500 resources for one base, 1000 for two, for starters. Good place to begin. Aim higher than that though) -Make sure you have enough buildings to constantly be producing one unit from every building, and always be producing units out of every building. -Constantly produce workers (except zerg). -Expand whenever it is safe to expand. -Upgrade when you can afford it.
Notice I didn't say anything about scouting--you might lose some games due to unusual build orders or cheese, but it's not important yet. Understanding scouting is actually a very difficult part of the game.
I didn't say anything about micro, that's also a very difficult part of the game.
Didn't say anything about even build orders, those aren't important yet.
When people say "build shit" they mean "build anything" because excepting possibly casters, every unit will be decently fine. I'm sure that it's not hard to put two and two together and say, build stalkers if they have air or roaches or whatever.
On March 25 2011 03:18 Tercotta wrote: Ok, I'm going to be more clear because I feel that maybe some people are misunderstanding what I was trying to get at. My fault for not being clear enough. I don't think there is some super secret to get out of bronze.
My macro sucks, it's what keeps me down. After I posted this I won a TvZ with 3k mins banked. I could get out of bronze building nothing but reapers and medivacs if I could keep my money low.
But this is to get a general picture of low level play for everyone struggling at this level. Find specific problems with how specific races and matchups. If you look at my Terran stats and compare them with other stats of my Terran opponents you see everyone has similar issues. Thus we can create objectives more precise than "keep you money down." There are patterns at play. And figuring them out can be a big help for a large group of people.
The ultimate goal would be to create some sort of list of what low level and new players can expect when they play online. When you say, "build shit" you guys understand the connotations of what that means. A low level player may then think, "build what?"
Except there's no secret list. The biggest, best, most important thing you could do if you're aiming to improve as a player is to just improve your mechanics.
Even pros try constantly to improve their mechanics.
Mechanics, for the most part, refer to what people consider "macro."
A SPORTS ANALOGY, because, why not. When someone plays soccer, they don't bother with crap like formations, strategy, or anything at all first, other than learning to kick and pass the ball. A new soccer player is incapable of even doing that competently, and so that's what they practice. It's kinda important for everything else they want to do.
A bronze player is kinda like that--you can't even properly "kick the ball" yet. If you want a list, well, here it is:
-Never get supply blocked, more specifically, only build supply when you need it, so you're not wasting resources on supply you don't yet need. -Never float minerals (I mean, everyone does to an extent, but I mean, keep it under 500 resources for one base, 1000 for two, for starters. Good place to begin. Aim higher than that though) -Make sure you have enough buildings to constantly be producing one unit from every building, and always be producing units out of every building. -Constantly produce workers (except zerg). -Expand whenever it is safe to expand. -Upgrade when you can afford it.
Notice I didn't say anything about scouting--you might lose some games due to unusual build orders or cheese, but it's not important yet. Understanding scouting is actually a very difficult part of the game.
I didn't say anything about micro, that's also a very difficult part of the game.
Didn't say anything about even build orders, those aren't important yet.
When people say "build shit" they mean "build anything" because excepting possibly casters, every unit will be decently fine. I'm sure that it's not hard to put two and two together and say, build stalkers if they have air or roaches or whatever.
This is spot on. In fact I think trying to make a list of non-macro things will actually be detrimental to bronze players as all it will teach is bad habits.
Just learn how to stop those stupid rushes and cheese strats like hiding 20 blue flame hellions or massing voidrays and you will get better opponents and therefore some worthwhile practice...
You really can get out of bronze with just macro; but you can also get out of bronze by being very good with your micro, or catching your opponent by surprise. Macro is the most important aspect, though; because while I can drone rush anyone in bronze-silver, it begins to get worse at the gold-plat level, and you'll have to learn how to macro anyway.
That's why that advice is always given.
Oh, and a dude on reddit built stalkers until high plat/low diamond, and he only a-moved them, so it had nothing to do with masters level transfuse micro. Just take the advice of everyone who's posted in here about macro!
Multitasking, economic and unit management, and understanding the match up on a map-by-map basis are the fundamental core aspects of RTS. It's not only encouraging these skills to grow that is difficult. Fusing these parts together into a reactive, conservative style is the bane of low level players, and they often become discouraged because of it.
If you hold the highest standard for your ability to display each of the pieces one by one with reckless abandon, your puzzle will solve itself. Understanding and growth takes time. Practice is hard work. There are no shortcuts.
I think the most basic and important thing is to execute build orders properly. Then comes scouting and a general idea how to react to various situations.
Oh also if you lose a game either really close or totally obvious check your replay if you feel like it. Watch your every step and think about what you are doing or what could have been done different. It might hint you a few things
The point that destiny was trying to make was that you can get to diamond off of mechanics alone, and you don't need some fancy strategy. My advice, find a safe/solid build for each match up (preferably done by a pro player); sadly I can only give you generic advice at the moment because I don't even know your race.
"Just Macro" I think is not a sufficient advice. I'm a silver league noob shit who can beat anyone at silver-gold-lowplat in macro games and I'm silver since god knows when. Last time I played, something like this happened:
1- I scouted protoss 2- Stole his gas so that he won't make a sentry heavy 4-gate on me 3- Took an expansion 4- Ran by lings, scouted 4 gateways 5- Immediately threw a macro hatchery 6- Massed lings against a no-sentry zealot stalker army (I watched Terious getting chobostomped by either GuineaPig, Ace or Squirtle on LT with going roaches against a 4 warpgate all-in off 1 gas and Artosis said that it was not good to go roach and speedling would be better, so I didn't go roach). 7- Lost to someone who has 1/10 as much understanding-skill-strategical knowledge as me.
This gets us to the point: What is wrong? And I came up with a few possible answers: 1- Toss is ridiculously imba. 2- Just macro is not enough.
I don't know which one is true. But I think it's the latter as former gets people banned on TL.
I'm going to quote Chill from his Brood War strategy forum days. There are a couple of mentions of units / builds that apply more to BW than to SC2, but the basic lessons are still very much applicable. Note that its main focus isn't macro / micro.
On October 04 2006 09:35 Chill wrote: I see a lot of threads lately that are "Why did I suck in this game?", and then the game is so bad that you can't give a specific reason because there are too many. I'm going to give tl.net the advice I give everyone who asks me to watch replays, and hopefully it will do some help to someone.
In order of decending important, you should be thinking about the following things:
1. Always be Doing Something.
As I see it, there's only ever three things to be done: Attacking, expanding, and teching. If you're not doing one of the three, you're doing nothing. I see this a lot in low level replays; people tech quick to Lurkers and then sit at home with them. They don't go Hive, they don't expand and they don't try to break their opponents expansion - they do nothing.
By the same logic, a containment is doing you no good if nothing is going on beyond that containment. If you're not holding up for more expansions or more tech, that containment is pointless.
You should note that Teching means teching NOW, not in 5 minutes. If you're "going to be" teching, you're still not doing anything.
There are two times that I can think of when this wouldn't apply. Those are the time when you are building up for an attack, and once the late game kicks in and resources are getting low.
Try to think about this during the game. Make sure you're always doing something.
2. What's your underlying game plan?
It's ZvT. Instead of powering Drones off of 3 Hatcheries, you got Lurkers quickly off 2 Hatcheries. Now what? Why would you use this build? Either to break his natural, or secure more expansions for yourself. It doesn't make sense now to add many Hatcheries and get many Zerglings. If that was your plan you should have added the Hatcheries before Lair.
This happens all the time to one of my friends. He's good, but whenever I watch a replay he needs help with, I ask him "Why'd you do that?" and "What's your gameplan?". He can never answer. You should be able to watch your own replays and be able to explain your plan to yourself.
3. Adapt
Now that you stole build orders from replays to satisfy #2, it's time to adapt. In ZvT, it's 3 base (2 gas) Zerg versus 2 base (2 gas) Terran. You were planning on going Hydralurk until you scouted Terran with 6 Barracks and 2 Factories. You're going to make life easier if you switch to Lurkerling.
Sometimes you have to use Ultras. Sometimes it makes more sense to use Defilers. Sometimes it makes more sense to use both. Sometimes you don't need Hive tech (rare). If you feel Terran is going fast Tanks and you just stick with your 3 Sunkens and Spire, you deserve to lose because you didn't adapt.
So, have your general cookie cutter builds, but you have to stray from them when you see Terran went 1 Vulture into 2 Port Wraith, or basically an unorthodox build.
Sorry all my examples are ZvT just because I have that on my mind for some reason.
4. Macro & Micro
Now that you've done 1-3, you should start worrying about macro and micro. I see a lot of people starting with macro when people ask for help. I think it's much more important to be "always doing something" than having good macro, that's why I put these so far down the list.
So, if you watch your replay and you think you did all 1-4, then ask for help. I can pretty much guarentee that if you are always doing something, following a game plan, and adapting your build to counter his, you won't have a replay that you still need help with.
On March 25 2011 04:34 Djagulingu wrote: "Just Macro" I think is not a sufficient advice. I'm a silver league noob shit who can beat anyone at silver-gold-lowplat in macro games and I'm silver since god knows when. Last time I played, something like this happened:
1- I scouted protoss 2- Stole his gas so that he won't make a sentry heavy 4-gate on me 3- Took an expansion 4- Ran by lings, scouted 4 gateways 5- Immediately threw a macro hatchery 6- Massed lings against a no-sentry zealot stalker army (I watched Terious getting chobostomped by either GuineaPig, Ace or Squirtle on LT with going roaches against a 4 warpgate all-in off 1 gas and Artosis said that it was not good to go roach and speedling would be better, so I didn't go roach). 7- Lost to someone who has 1/10 as much understanding-skill-strategical knowledge as me.
This gets us to the point: What is wrong? And I came up with a few possible answers: 1- Toss is ridiculously imba. 2- Just macro is not enough.
I don't know which one is true. But I think it's the latter as former gets people banned on TL.
you had 3 hatches when a 4gate hit? you shouldn't have the money or time to do that and having the money to do this would suggest it was your macro at fault. a replay would be good though.
however to say something else about lower league zerg, i some of the advice people give to lower level players is not applicable to zerg, make sure you're always making workers is just for toss and terran really, i'm no zerg but there are many times when a zerg should be entirely producing units and responding to a 4gate is (i believe but a zerg may wish to correct me) one of those times.
On March 25 2011 04:34 Djagulingu wrote: "Just Macro" I think is not a sufficient advice. I'm a silver league noob shit who can beat anyone at silver-gold-lowplat in macro games and I'm silver since god knows when. Last time I played, something like this happened:
1- I scouted protoss 2- Stole his gas so that he won't make a sentry heavy 4-gate on me 3- Took an expansion 4- Ran by lings, scouted 4 gateways 5- Immediately threw a macro hatchery 6- Massed lings against a no-sentry zealot stalker army (I watched Terious getting chobostomped by either GuineaPig, Ace or Squirtle on LT with going roaches against a 4 warpgate all-in off 1 gas and Artosis said that it was not good to go roach and speedling would be better, so I didn't go roach). 7- Lost to someone who has 1/10 as much understanding-skill-strategical knowledge as me.
This gets us to the point: What is wrong? And I came up with a few possible answers: 1- Toss is ridiculously imba. 2- Just macro is not enough.
I don't know which one is true. But I think it's the latter as former gets people banned on TL.
you had 3 hatches when a 4gate hit? you shouldn't have the money or time to do that and having the money to do this would suggest it was your macro at fault. a replay would be good though.
however to say something else about lower league zerg, i some of the advice people give to lower level players is not applicable to zerg, make sure you're always making workers is just for toss and terran really, i'm no zerg but there are many times when a zerg should be entirely producing units and responding to a 4gate is (i believe but a zerg may wish to correct me) one of those times.
On March 25 2011 04:34 Djagulingu wrote: "Just Macro" I think is not a sufficient advice. I'm a silver league noob shit who can beat anyone at silver-gold-lowplat in macro games and I'm silver since god knows when. Last time I played, something like this happened:
1- I scouted protoss 2- Stole his gas so that he won't make a sentry heavy 4-gate on me 3- Took an expansion 4- Ran by lings, scouted 4 gateways 5- Immediately threw a macro hatchery 6- Massed lings against a no-sentry zealot stalker army (I watched Terious getting chobostomped by either GuineaPig, Ace or Squirtle on LT with going roaches against a 4 warpgate all-in off 1 gas and Artosis said that it was not good to go roach and speedling would be better, so I didn't go roach). 7- Lost to someone who has 1/10 as much understanding-skill-strategical knowledge as me.
This gets us to the point: What is wrong? And I came up with a few possible answers: 1- Toss is ridiculously imba. 2- Just macro is not enough.
I don't know which one is true. But I think it's the latter as former gets people banned on TL.
If you steal a protoss' gas, that is basically telling him you want him to 4gate you. There are very few good responses to a gas steal, as you won't have enough sentries to defend an allin if you 3gate expo, and all tech oriented rushes are delayed significantly. The problem with the gas steal is that you have to keep your zealot blocking the ramp, and a stalker takes forever to kill the extractor. Since protoss is reliant on few units until warpgate completes, this presents a problem.
In order to solve this problem, you 4gate zerg, as it is now your strongest strategy.
As zerg, you should expect this 95% of the time in my opinion, unless you sac an overlord, or scout an expansion. So your response should be a ton of roaches as fast as you can. You don't need a macro hatch on 2 base if you have 2 queens with low energy.
I am masters, so take this advice for what it's worth.
EDIT: Watching replay.
- at the 5 min mark, you can clearly see he threw down the 4th gate as a response to your gas steal.
- you let the pylon go up WAY too close to your base
- almost every time you attack, your lings were attacking the zlots. NO. Make them attack the stalkers.
- if you choose to use lings for defence, you need SPINECRAWLERS, to deal with zlots.
- you lost after your nat went down, rest of the game is a bust.
TIPS:
- leave 2 lings outside his base, one RIGHT at entrance, and one a little further back to see his unit comp. (as you inevitably miss seeing his unit comp. the first time)
- control the xel-naga. all the time every time. lings are cheap.
- don't get a macro hatch unless you really need it.
- you simply cannot let that pylon go up. have complete vision of all ground entrances into your base, and preferable all ground areas of your base.
- need spinecrawlers too, maybe 2 going up as soon as your lings at his base see the push.
- see how all this works together? vision from towers, vision from lings. having VISION means there is no pylon that close, means there is time to put spines down, means there is information. can't win without that.
- also don't get supply-blocked ever etc. (you did a good job of this) =]
On March 25 2011 04:34 Djagulingu wrote: "Just Macro" I think is not a sufficient advice. I'm a silver league noob shit who can beat anyone at silver-gold-lowplat in macro games and I'm silver since god knows when. Last time I played, something like this happened:
1- I scouted protoss 2- Stole his gas so that he won't make a sentry heavy 4-gate on me 3- Took an expansion 4- Ran by lings, scouted 4 gateways 5- Immediately threw a macro hatchery 6- Massed lings against a no-sentry zealot stalker army (I watched Terious getting chobostomped by either GuineaPig, Ace or Squirtle on LT with going roaches against a 4 warpgate all-in off 1 gas and Artosis said that it was not good to go roach and speedling would be better, so I didn't go roach). 7- Lost to someone who has 1/10 as much understanding-skill-strategical knowledge as me.
This gets us to the point: What is wrong? And I came up with a few possible answers: 1- Toss is ridiculously imba. 2- Just macro is not enough.
I don't know which one is true. But I think it's the latter as former gets people banned on TL.
If you steal a protoss' gas, that is basically telling him you want him to 4gate you. There are very few good responses to a gas steal, as you won't have enough sentries to defend an allin if you 3gate expo, and all tech oriented rushes are delayed significantly. The problem with the gas steal is that you have to keep your zealot blocking the ramp, and a stalker takes forever to kill the extractor. Since protoss is reliant on few units until warpgate completes, this presents a problem.
In order to solve this problem, you 4gate zerg, as it is now your strongest strategy.
As zerg, you should expect this 95% of the time in my opinion, unless you sac an overlord, or scout an expansion. So your response should be a ton of roaches as fast as you can. You don't need a macro hatch on 2 base if you have 2 queens with low energy.
I am masters, so take this advice for what it's worth.
Basically, the reason why I stole gas was exactly this. I thought I could defend a 1 gas 4-gate with 3 hatch lings, but I could not.
Thanks for the advice man, I watched the replay as well, and I really had no friggin vision, just like you said. I didn't really do a good job in the very basic part, but at least I was slightly better than him (he had like 800 minerals and so much gas floating around). But that didn't win me a game. That's why I disagree with "just make units and win" kind of advice. Even at lower leagues, we noob shits need more than just that imho.
the thing is ZvP vs. a 4gate(at any level, even bronze unfortunately) requires a very specific response, and for the zerg to play significantly faster and smarter. In the case of "just macro", I believe that is bad advice in this one case.
In every other matchup, and in ZvP (excepting 4gate of course), the game can be won with very simple macro, and minimal scouting. (lower levels)
It's unfortunate it is that way, but it is.
Best of luck! Try and work on that vision and you'll be gold in no time.
On March 25 2011 05:39 Turo wrote: the thing is ZvP vs. a 4gate(at any level, even bronze unfortunately) requires a very specific response, and for the zerg to play significantly faster and smarter. In the case of "just macro", I believe that is bad advice in this one case.
In every other matchup, and in ZvP (excepting 4gate of course), the game can be won with very simple macro, and minimal scouting. (lower levels)
It's unfortunate it is that way, but it is.
Best of luck! Try and work on that vision and you'll be gold in no time.
Also siege tanks. I find when I mess around playing random on my friends bronze acc, many players simply dont know how to deal with them when you get 5+.
Many people I meet simply run into the tanks with their army thinking they can win because their army is bigger, not knowing that what they are doing is actually suicide.
In many cases macro and mechanics is basically what you want to improve, but no amount of macro is going to save you from failing to scout a Dark Shrine until the DTs are in your base and you've been muling away and havent saved a single scan.
Personally I think improving scouting habits at lower levels will benefit you as much as macro, especially because of the somewhat unpredictable nature of lower level play.
I've been hanging around in a channel with a lot of bronze players ever since chat channels were introduced and I've watched a lot of their games. At first I was hoping I could give them tips and really help them improve, but unfortunately 99% of what them holds them back really is macro and hand speed.
I do agree with one thing though. Just telling them 'macro better, make more stuff' doesn't help, because a lot of them don't have the knowledge to apply that properly. It takes a bit of knowledge to understand what good macro is comprised of and what you should focus on specifically if you want to have good macro. Because of that, I've been trying to break down what macro is and help them understand all the things they should be focusing on (harvesters, not getting supply capped, getting the right amount of production facilities, rough expansion timings. etc.).
Really though, I think the only thing that's going to get you out of bronze is to just play games, get your handspeed up and get used to multitasking. Way too many low level people that still read sites like TL think they need to understand things like timings when any timings in bronze league are horribly off because both players mess up their mechanics so much.
On March 25 2011 07:14 Orome wrote: I've been hanging around in a channel with a lot of bronze players ever since chat channels were introduced and I've watched a lot of their games. At first I was hoping I could give them tips and really help them improve, but unfortunately 99% of what them holds them back really is macro and hand speed.
I do agree with one thing though. Just telling them 'macro better, make more stuff' doesn't help, because a lot of them don't have the knowledge to apply that properly. It takes a bit of knowledge to understand what good macro is comprised of and what you should focus on specifically if you want to have good macro. Because of that, I've been trying to break down what macro is and help them understand all the things they should be focusing on (harvesters, not getting supply capped, getting the right amount of production facilities, rough expansion timings. etc.).
Really though, I think the only thing that's going to get you out of bronze is to just play games, get your handspeed up and get used to multitasking. Way too many low level people that still read sites like TL think they need to understand things like timings when any timings in bronze league are horribly off because both players mess up their mechanics so much.
Definately agree with this. I don't think a lot of lower level players understand just how much macro applies to. It's more than just having low money by building units and workers constantly, It includes the crispness and efficiency of your build order, having units building constantly without queues, and more. At the same time though, this makes the advice "macro better" to be way too vague, and generally not helpful at all.
I think bronze players need a breakdown on all the little things that make up macro to really improve on it, and see the significance of it. If you have all of these down decently, you will easily get out of bronze, but that's a lot harder than it seems, since macro applies to so much.
On March 25 2011 04:34 Djagulingu wrote: "Just Macro" I think is not a sufficient advice. I'm a silver league noob shit who can beat anyone at silver-gold-lowplat in macro games and I'm silver since god knows when. Last time I played, something like this happened:
1- I scouted protoss 2- Stole his gas so that he won't make a sentry heavy 4-gate on me 3- Took an expansion 4- Ran by lings, scouted 4 gateways 5- Immediately threw a macro hatchery 6- Massed lings against a no-sentry zealot stalker army (I watched Terious getting chobostomped by either GuineaPig, Ace or Squirtle on LT with going roaches against a 4 warpgate all-in off 1 gas and Artosis said that it was not good to go roach and speedling would be better, so I didn't go roach). 7- Lost to someone who has 1/10 as much understanding-skill-strategical knowledge as me.
This gets us to the point: What is wrong? And I came up with a few possible answers: 1- Toss is ridiculously imba. 2- Just macro is not enough.
I don't know which one is true. But I think it's the latter as former gets people banned on TL.
I watched your replay. and surprise surprise you lost because of macro. I mean honestly his 4 gate hit at 7:30 with 3 zlot 3 stalker. Thats the slowest freaking 4gate ever. You lost because you had no eco management at all you built an inbase hatch at like 25 drones? There is noooooo reason to have a third hatch this fast. Also, gas stealing is a waste of minerals. You could have had another 14 lings and then you would have held that easy.
Also, your opponents response was way better then yours in this case i mean honestly what do you expect if you steal a gas? It is going to be a 4gate, that is the only response that makes sense.
Now, I think zerg also has to learn when to pump drones and when to build units on top of macroing but for terran and toss just mass marines or stalkers and win.
I do understand what it is like in Bronze league as I am currently working my way through it. I would also be one to give the advice of work on your macro. As I have worked on mine, my win rate has gone way up. Worked myself from 50th into the top 5 in the past month and I don't play a ton.
If you want specific advice how to macro, I'd go to thesc2school.com and sign-up for a macro-oriented coach. Coaches there donate their time to helping us lower level players improve.
I bought the game for my girlfriend, and she made it out of bronze as a person who not only had never played Starcraft, but had never played an RTS in her life. Whereas a lot of newbies are opposed with making cool units, or trying to micro and be fancy, she just makes a lot of shit. She has no idea what she's making, what they're good for, or when the are good/bad (she doesn't know sentry is a spellcaster), she still made it out because she makes stuff all the time. It's the best advice by far.
On March 25 2011 08:55 Orome wrote: gas stealing isn't a waste of minerals
It is if you don't want to get 4gated. I guess it avoids a sentry heavy 4gate in particular, not that bronze/silver players can ff well anyway, but it frequently triggers the 1 gas 4gate anyway since it locks out tech builds and makes 3gate expand more difficult.
And yeah that game was hands down lost because of macro. 3 zealots 3 stalkers 7:30 doesn't kill someone playing efficiently, ever, no matter how bad their unit composition or micro is.
The point about getting people to understand what exactly macro is is good advice. People should just read Ver's How to Improve guide though. The advice it gives(macro is by far the most important skill to learn, copy a pro replay, practice the build until your execution is exactly like the pro's) is hugely important.
However, judging by some of the posts bronze and silver players make on this forum(not just in this thread, but in TONS of threads about helping low level players improve), I think step one is actually just removing poisonous beliefs. The most prevalent and poisonous belief for bronze and silver leaguers to have is to assume that they have the ability to accurately analyze a game. I'd say 9 times out of 10 if a silver leaguer looks at a game of his and says "Yes, apparently this master league player was wrong about his advice" he's just straight up wrong, the master league player was correct and the silver league player is just screwing up in some other way.
I am a silver player and I think macro is really the most important thing. Not "oh, I'll macro... i guess" but, "I will not miss a single probe, I will not miss a warpgate replenishment, I will chronoboost upgrades" is very helpful. The other advice I got that bumped me up was getting a good solid safe BO. I play toss and practiced 3 gate robo about 20 times then won 7 games in a row, got promoted, now play plat players on a regular basis.
I actually just tested this advice in a game, I did my best not to miss anything, I got maxed crazy fast and steamrolled the guy even though my first group of units evaporated. I had so many gates, I just built three rounds, chronoboosting them as much as possible, and was ready to pressure again.. So the advice is useful, but you as the consumer need to spend every last ounce of focus on it to improve.
I know this. He doesn't. He wanted to avoid a 4gate and his post suggests that he wants to say 4gate is imbalanced, so if he really believes that, why make it his most efficient path?
Bronze is the bottom 20% of players. That means that you'll play matches against people who have a solid build up to about the 10 minute mark, then forget to build probes. It also means you'll play against people who don't know what an Orbital Command is, or don't know that Warp Gate tech exists.
this seems interesting enough. i'll check back later.. normally i tell my friends who are in bronze league is to cheese their way out of it will then hit low gold before learning to play a macro game.. where i believe that it's much more possible over there.
I have to agree with the OP here. Most of the cheesers I encounter are Silver/Gold/Platinum, where Bronze is more people who legitimately try to do macro builds but just can't, so they lose all the time.
That said, however, the bottom line has improved a whole lot in the last 6-8 months. Shortly after release Bronze was full of the stereotypical "duyhhhhh whats a build order duhhh carriers are pretty!!" crowd, but all of those people have pretty much either knuckled down and improved, or long since quit completely, and so Bronze is full of people who cna actually do early builds pretty well, they just aren't so great at micro, positioning, and tend to fall apart on later macro things like making just the right number of production buildings, queen injects, and managing multiple bases.
I'm a little skeptical of the claim that Bronze players know build orders and can execute the first few minutes of the game well since I still run into low level players in team games and they rarely build things on time. I can't count the number of times when I've waltzed my probe across a base, come to another Protoss player, and see a single pylon well before my second pylon goes down... I start wondering if I missed a proxy somewhere and then his gate finally goes down, often apparently on 14 or 15. It's silly. It's also common to see larva sitting unused at hatcheries when the pool and hatch are already down and so forth.
On March 25 2011 13:40 Turgid wrote: I'm a little skeptical of the claim that Bronze players know build orders and can execute the first few minutes of the game well since I still run into low level players in team games and they rarely build things on time. I can't count the number of times when I've waltzed my probe across a base, come to another Protoss player, and see a single pylon well before my second pylon goes down... I start wondering if I missed a proxy somewhere and then his gate finally goes down, often apparently on 14 or 15. It's silly. It's also common to see larva sitting unused at hatcheries when the pool and hatch are already down and so forth.
having your gate go down 10-15 seconds late, or even having every single building go down that late isn't necessarily "not knowing a b/o" but simply not focusing on consistent practise enough to internalise remembering when to build certain things.
My fiancee plays Protoss a lot, and when we first started I gave her a 3gate robo build and thought nothing more of it. Then 20 games later she's complaining about losing all the time, and I took a look at her replays. She does indeed put the gate down on 13. But at 200 minerals on 13, not 150. She then makes a zealot before the cybernetic core because "i need to close my wall" despite having seen the pool timing being normal, not early, and not realising she doesn't need the zealot yet.
After I went through all this with her, she practised a bunch in YABOT, and now, doing the same build order, doing all the things she knows how to do but just doing them more consistently, accurately, on time, and overall tight, she is now consistently beating Very Hard AI where before she struggled with Hard. (She doesn't like competitive play so stays away from 1v1 online).
This is the difference that is in Bronze. They know HOW to do good build orders. They just don't do it, and don't realise that they're not doing it, and not only that but they don't realise that the fundamental error they are making is not doing the wrong thing, or not even failing to do the right thing. They are doing the right thing, but late.
There is a reason that Bronze 4gates hit at about 7-7:30 as opposed to 6-6:30 for a Masters (excluding a fancy 10gate variant or something that hits at 5minsomething), but still fundamentally do things in the correct order. Its just all dnoe late.
you know the saying "you have to run before you can walk"? that doesn't apply to bronze players.
bronze players are like zygotes who haven't developed even a stub of a leg yet, so in terms of advice all you can say is you need to move faster and build more stuff.
i've never seen a bronze player who could execute a build order properly though, much less understand one. perhaps one of the only reason bronze players can seemingly do things is because sc2 is highly accessible mechanics-wise so you don't really see giant holes in their play against other bronze players. i mean it's easy to macro when all you're doing is looking at your units pop out and mashing hotkeys. throw the slightest bit of multitask at them, though, and they would probably fall apart.
the single biggest thing most Bronze players need to improve on, in my opinion, is doing everything on time. A lot of them do know build orders. They just execute the various parts of them so late (20-30 seconds) due to either inattention or inexperience, that its barely recognisable as the build order anymore. That is the number one thing that Bronze players should work on, once they know a build order, is tightening up the execution of it.
I also think that some of them end up with roughly what the build order calls for but don't actually get it in the right order. Things like going pylon pylon core or going 3gate before core into robo, or trying to go 3gate robo but getting the robo last for some reason. Maybe they take that day9 advice to have a general idea of what you want to have at a given point in the game too literally
On March 25 2011 15:10 Turgid wrote: I also think that some of them end up with roughly what the build order calls for but don't actually get it in the right order. Things like going pylon pylon core or going 3gate before core into robo, or trying to go 3gate robo but getting the robo last for some reason. Maybe they take that day9 advice to have a general idea of what you want to have at a given point in the game too literally
I was in bronze for a short while, and I found out that bronze leaguers simply do not have functional build orders, and they lack understandings of unit compositions. You guys say that their macro is the problem, but this is a game where you can put all of your buildings on one key, and even at that level, I don't think that spending money is the problem until a battle happens. The reason why their "macro" is so bad is that they do not have any good build orders, so they are unable to make as many units as players who smurf these levels with pure stalker or queen builds. But they do make a lot of workers, and in comparison to the worst players on starcraft broodwar, the bronzers have godly macro - just no actual build orders or any game plan whatsoever O_O
Or they might know a general idea of a build order, but their execution is so bad it doesn't really help them at all.
Now I'm not saying anything is more important than macroing it up. I just think most people don't understand what actually goes on in the lower leagues and thus give very generic advice when many low level players are looking for something more than that. For instance despite it's reputation bronze is pretty devoid of cheese. Most cheesers have worked there way into silver and gold with easy victories.
I play a decent amount of custom games with off races and run in to lower level players sometimes (I'm low masters, kind of inactive) and truthfully IT IS pretty generic. At most points in the game they usually don't have enough units to be able to successfully do ANYTHING strategically.
I think lower level players would be well served to practice macroing in custom games. Just try out different things like how fast can you max on two bases with a good army composition or how much stuff can you have for different timing attacks. Then watch the replay and see where you can fix some things (too many/too few barracks, whatever) and try again. Also watch some replays of good players to see how they set up their production facilities and they're timings and try to see how close you can get to them.
You'll probably be surprised at how much more stuff you have when you're just focusing on macroing than you do when you're playing real games (even factoring in battles). I know that's happened to me a few times. From there when you go in to ladder games you won't have to spend as much time thinking about what to build and you can direct your attention more towards using the things you've built.
I agree that Bronze who thinks they know how to do build order actually doesn't. They think they put their gate on 13 and that it is the correct build order, but they stopped probe production for a while after the first pylon or something and then the gate is 30 second delayed from the actual time.
That is why day9 says don't remember by the supply count but " i put gate when i have the money for it while maintaining constant probe production)
I've never been a Bronze player, but I practice with some friends of mine who are. They watch Day9 now and again and get that they should macro better in the abstract sense, it's just that the transition from abstract knowledge to concrete knowledge isn't as easy as being told "macro better". Timing things, moving faster, keeping on top of a build order, it all takes a certain amount of precision that's A) learned and B) taken for granted by higher-level players who've integrated it into their play long ago.
The best way for them to learn to macro better is by working with those better players that aren't sanctimonious or dismissive about them over a period of time, so I hope the OP can at least get some constructive feedback about the problems the replays reveal and how to avoid them in concrete terms (ex: not "you missed a building timing", but "here's a basic way to avoid missing that building timing that worked for me").
What worked for me might not work for you but... I went into a researching phase before even laddering. I gathered information on most popular zerg / terran / protoss lifestyles that have been optimized and refined by others. Since I also happen to livecast games, I do have to know a bit of the game and that is coming over time (but I can read the game better now).
Afterwards, you want to remember to constantly make probes once you start expanding. That, and always check how much supply you have until getting supply-blocked (chances are, if the differential is < 8, "You must construct additional pylons" before the game shouts that). That, and if your minerals are > 500, make army. If, despite making army, there still is *some* leftover, you need to build something that you'll make units from (such as a gateway, robo, stuff).
Afterwards #2, you need to react to your opponent. Example: As any race, in any matchup, you need detection at some point in the game and you need to discover when (burrowed roaches hit at around 9mn-ish; I don't remember as far as DTs & Banshees but it's around the 7-8mn mark?). If you're Zerg, if you scout Colossus, you may need some corrupters in your army mix so that your roach/hydra ball won't melt. That sort of stuff.
So, "just macro" isn't enough. Having a game plan (such as having X unit composition at the 15mn mark) is more important, since "just macro" would be the tool (not the end in itself). "Just macro" will be shortened to "Execution" of the game plan.
=== Edit: Any guy who says I'm wrong on the DT/Banshee timing approximation, you may correct me. As for the rest, I'm trying not to overload w/ info, despite doing a poor job at it :p
People say macro for a reason, because that's usually what it takes. I'm throwing an estimation here but I believe that 80% of people who stay in bronze are there because they don't really macro. You may think you're macroing good, but you're not actually macroing good.
All of my IRL friends who were in bronze got out of bronze pretty quickly after I told them not to place buildings 100 minerals late and to just keep building probes all game.
As much as some people in bronze like to say that there's more to it than macroing better, it's only because they probably haven't been given any specific advice like the above.
On March 25 2011 03:18 Tercotta wrote: Ok, I'm going to be more clear because I feel that maybe some people are misunderstanding what I was trying to get at. My fault for not being clear enough. I don't think there is some super secret to get out of bronze.
My macro sucks, it's what keeps me down. After I posted this I won a TvZ with 3k mins banked. I could get out of bronze building nothing but reapers and medivacs if I could keep my money low.
But this is to get a general picture of low level play for everyone struggling at this level. Find specific problems with how specific races and matchups. If you look at my Terran stats and compare them with other stats of my Terran opponents you see everyone has similar issues. Thus we can create objectives more precise than "keep you money down." There are patterns at play. And figuring them out can be a big help for a large group of people.
The ultimate goal would be to create some sort of list of what low level and new players can expect when they play online. When you say, "build shit" you guys understand the connotations of what that means. A low level player may then think, "build what?"
So in essence you are saying "I know that if I spent my 3k bank I could have won easily, but how can i win while having a 3k bank?"
If that is your mindset ("you" is not you but a generic low-leaguer), I don't think you want to get out of the low leagues; after all they are meant to be there for people like you, who don't have fun trying to click faster but do trying a dt rush or a tank drop. Unfortunately all the strategical advice one gives under the assumption that you'd play with poor mechanics is moot, because games are unpredictable. For example, I know that stopping drones at 26 food and massing speedlings thereafter is the best response, when done correctly, to a correctly done 4gate. However if you suck at injecting and he sucks at 4gating you may find that other things work better for you; but you can't expect higher level people to take your troubles seriously and try to help you find what the best bad-mechanics strategy would be to counter another badly executed strategy. By all means have fun trying to find it out yourself! or with the help of your bronze buddies. Nothing wrong with that, unless your goal is actually getting promoted, in which case there's just not running away from improving your damn mechanics.
EPT
