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You know what is worse than losing to toss as zerg? Losing to a toss while he chats in the middle of his mindless build order lecturing you on the demerits of gas stealing. And then after he completely fucking rolls you because you have no relevant scouting info on god forsaken delta quad he tells me he's ashamed to have been matched against me.
I think I just need to stop playing until there's a patch or something. My hands are actually shaking right now. This dude doesn't even understand the basics of zerg and he presumes to tell me how to play?
So let me ask you guys. Here's why I steal gas in zvp. At 3 minutes I take the gas. Sometimes toss takes it just before then, but usually it is just after. I try to constantly rebuild it so that he has to pull a zealot.
The reason I take the gas is because if he goes voids or dts or even blink or something like that, whatever he decides to do is going to be backed up about 1.5-2 minutes, which may be enough time for me to get my lair up and my hatches saturated, and perhaps overseer out to spot it in time.
Also his response to the gas steal is often telling. Does it get attacked by a zealot? That means he has at least two zealots. Does he just let it build and not care? That means he's either going for an earlyish expo or he's doing something mineral heavy, I might be able to rule out sentry expand. Sometimes even they pull probes to kill it which is even more telling. Often I get to see the first stalker fire at it.
Does this make sense? Or is that bad play I should be ashamed of?
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Stealing gas is fine, just realize especially on maps like delta quantrant, if someone ever steal my gas I'm gonna 5 gate as a response and its stupid hard to stop.
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I don't think its necessarily a good or a bad play, I'm not super experienced with it in zvp but often when I do a quick gas in tvt z will try and get my 2nd to stop banshee openers, I am usually going for blue flame hellions so this doesn't bug me but if I was going for banshees it would. What it really comes down to is what builds you are afraid of, are 2 gas openers really powerful on this map? In these positions? Thats my 2cents.
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Mind if I ask why you would five gate? The economic hit of a gas steal doesn't affect a zerg much at all because it is only 25 minerals and the drone is dead anyways. 12 minerals if it is canceled in time.
Are you saying it forces the toss to all in? Why?
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Calgary26003 Posts
You only need to justify your build to yourself.
That doesn't mean you should close your eyes and shut out criticism, but if it works for you then do it.
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no, it doesnt force the toss all in, it just deprives me of gas that I need to get enough sentires to do the standard 3g expand.
like I'd probably have to fudge around and improvise to do a weird 3g expand thats probably slighty bad and unsafe, and instead of doing that I'd rather just do a well rehearesed, strong 5 gate.
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always steal gas. i mean, the potential minerals mined by the drone, plus the 35 minerals < delaying a blink stalkers by 1 min
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Gas steal is really good for the reasons you stated. Don't let bm get under your skin. He was probably a better player than you, and beat you, but he was a dick and bmed.
Watch the replay and see where your mistakes were, not from some idiot protoss player. Ask TL and who knows? Maybe you just droned too hard, or you could have had a chance to put spines, and you didn't?
Also, if you hate delta, just veto. It's not like you are practicing the map for a tourney, so why play it at all? (unless you are, then good for you, playing that map as zerg is fucking hard)
I used to be affected pretty badly from BM. I would go on major TILT. I used to BM too, but what's the point really? Just remember that the age median is like 20, so there are a lot of chests being puffed over a computer game; hilarious isn't it? 
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I feel that your specific reasoning of delaying 1 base, 2 gas builds is solid in that you can definitely benefit from your gas steal this way. Some caveats to consider:
-3 gate expo doesn't suffer too much, and any of your options in exploiting a lower sentry count via aggression would rely on minerals that you're spending on the gas steal. Obviously Forge FE doesn't suffer at all.
-Even if a gas reliant 1 base play is delayed, it isn't exempted entirely. If you prepare roaches at an early timing anticipating a low-sentry 5 gate, then end up facing a delayed 3 gate void ray a minute or two later, your position is suboptimal. Basically the gas steal cannot substitute for the overlord suicide or an overseer poke because they all gain different information at different times.
I'd also like to parrot others' endorsements of 5 gate's stupid strength on Delta Quadrant. It's like... if you had a play that could force a Terran to 2 rax scv you on Steppes, consider carefully before you use it.
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Until Blizzard takes a serious step in the right direction for Zerg we need to be downvoting maps like DQ, it's just not even close to an equal fight and there's basically no point.
The most frustrating thing is that Protoss can get into Master league without really having any understanding of Zerg or even Terran, so yeah, we run into people like this.
But OP, you know what the matchup is like, you know what the map is like. It doesn't matter what your opponent thinks he knows or what he says, it's not a reflection of you. Let him live in his fantasy world.
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You had plenty of justifications for gas stealing.
As a Protoss player, I actually didn't realize how important it was for Zergs, intel-wise. It also does psychological damage to some players, frazzles them and throws them off their pace.
Keep doing what you're doing, and don't let your opponents get to you.
But yeah, watch out for the 5-gate response.
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On March 08 2011 09:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
You had plenty of justifications for gas stealing.
As a Protoss player, I actually didn't realize how important it was for Zergs, intel-wise. It also does psychological damage to some players, frazzles them and throws them off their pace.
Keep doing what you're doing, and don't let your opponents get to you.
But yeah, watch out for the 5-gate response.
am i the only one that thinks forcing a response is a BAD thing sometimes is kinda silly? When you're able to force the opponent's build order shouldn't you have the upper hand? You don't often hear protoss in bw going "man i better not steal his gas or he'll 1 rax cc on me...". But somehow saying you better not steal the protoss's gas sometimes because he can 5 gate you seems completely normal.
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Thats too bad onmarch. I have a practice partner like that. Plays protoss, basically jerks off while doing his build, then "offers" to watch the replay with me and point out my flaws. He's a good friend and practice partner, but any protoss who doesn't acknowledge their excessive strength against an equally skilled zerg player is fooling themselves.
It's so easy for them. 3g expand: get gas stolen, 5 gate. Early pressure: turtle: collosus, voidray, blink, DTs. The problem is almost nothing short of strategic genius, surprise, and luck by the zerg can actually throw a protoss off balance early game. Comparatively, protoss can ruin your fucking day early game. Early game zergs have better luck beating a cow to death with their limp dicks than doing anything to stagger a protoss.
Again, it's not like we can't win, it's that in most every game Protoss has six ways to win, and we have one. A lot of protoss' don't understand that. Let's just not talk about the late game. Thank god some sort of amulet nerf is on the way.
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You should be ashamed that someone could lecture you and roll you at the same time.
On March 08 2011 09:06 onmach wrote:
This dude doesn't even understand the basics of zerg and he presumes to tell me how to play?
I'm sure that there is at least one aspect of your game he could help you with. Especially if you lost to him.
Oh also, maybe this guy mains Zerg, maybe his practice partner is a really high level zerg player, Maybe his best MU is PvZ.
On March 08 2011 10:12 Lexpar wrote:
It's so easy for them. 3g expand: get gas stolen, 5 gate. Early pressure: turtle: collosus, voidray, blink, DTs. The problem is almost nothing short of strategic genius, surprise, and luck by the zerg can actually throw a protoss off balance early game.
Like AssuredVacancy said, if you know what they are doing and you still lose, there's more than just builds you need to work on.
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I've recently decided to start stealing gas from toss now. After listening to a discussion between iNcontrol and one of the students he's coaching last night, they came up with some strong reasons why taking that second gas might be a good idea (reasons you outlined in your OP).
I mean, it's definitely not gamebreaking, but it's a matter of taste. I'm gonna try it out at least.
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On March 08 2011 09:06 onmach wrote:
T which may be enough time for me to get my lair up and my hatches saturated, and perhaps overseer out to spot it in time.
Maybe you don't understand your race if you expect to get 2 bases saturated vs. a 1base toss and expect to not be punished by it.
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On March 08 2011 10:01 AssuredVacancy wrote:
am i the only one that thinks forcing a response is a BAD thing sometimes is kinda silly? When you're able to force the opponent's build order shouldn't you have the upper hand? You don't often hear protoss in bw going "man i better not steal his gas or he'll 1 rax cc on me...". But somehow saying you better not steal the protoss's gas sometimes because he can 5 gate you seems completely normal.
It's not that it's a bad thing, simply that it's important to understand what kind of play you are forcing. If you think it allows you a little more flexibility in how fast you get detection/AA, you're right. But if you think you're delaying aggression by gas stealing, you're making a big mistake.
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On March 08 2011 10:12 Lexpar wrote:
Again, it's not like we can't win, it's that in most every game Protoss has six ways to win, and we have one. A lot of protoss' don't understand that. Let's just not talk about the late game. Thank god some sort of amulet nerf is on the way.
lol I agree, I've played tons of games where I played way worse than zerg, turtle off 2/3base with cannons collo VR mothership stalker zealot and just roll them. That said.. I've never ever even considered using templars in pvz, there are too many better more efficient options imo
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Thanks guys. It is good to get into the head of a toss player for once.
As for how I lost, it was cross positions on delta and my overlord could not get into position by 5 minutes, so I had to rely on scouting his entrance, and the fact that there was a stalker and a chrono on his gateway. Having lost to 4 gates on that map numerous times before even when I scout it I made two spines and a lot of lings. But he just 3 gate expanded and there was no way to attack into him. I was playing from far behind and my macro and everything just kind of fell apart as my heart wasn't in it anymore so I just left at his first gateway based attack.
I'm going to give it another go tonight and think about what you guys have said.
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why would you play on that map.
and yes steal gas is important.
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EPT
