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On February 20 2011 13:45 XXGeneration wrote:
As a 13 year old kid who is an avid BW fan, I really hate how other people my age love SC2 so much because of its graphics and because they think BW is an "old game".
I agree that the hype was short-lived on the front page. Maybe that needs to be changed.
Wow I thought I was the youngest BW fanboy here but I'm 15 
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On February 20 2011 12:42 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 11:39 puppykiller wrote:
I think your right about zvz requiring a diffrent kind of commentary, but we also don't have any commentators that can illuminate the subtletiess of zvz. If I had a good mic, and I had the time to practice casting enough to actually be decent to listen to, I definitely have the ability to give insight. It's just a lot of work to be a commentator, and unless you're paid it's too huge a time investment (at least for me, when I have many goals outside of StarCraft). I think there are a lot of people left in the BW community that still understand this game, it's just that casters tend to be people who like watching, rather than people who like playing. Those people have a harder time understand what's actually happening. (This isn't to say I'm massively good at SC. Only that I have the game sense that only veterans of this game seem to have. Game sense that can't be acquired when you can't imagine what a player can and can't see, and how that affects the decisions a player can make.) I dunno. There are people that only see the unit compositions in games. They think every PvT is the same because Terran gets vultures and tanks, while protoss gets zealots and dragoons. They're only excited by the idea that sometimes protoss gets arbs, and other times he gets carriers. Sometimes Terran gets drop ships, and sometimes he gets quick goliaths. For these people, they start to think all StarCraft games are basically the same and that it's only down to who has better macro or micro. Those are the people that watch StarCraft less and less. Those are the people that suffer from casters who can't offer anymore than 'usually terran goes mech vs toss, and bio vs zerg.' Is every game of Go the same because all they do is put stones down and eventually one player loses? Or do you need some sense of the strategy to enjoy watching a game like that? I want to make BroodWar exciting for these people too. I want them to see beyond just the unit compositions, or 'one players lings died and the other's didn't.' It is difficult to do when there are so many inane obstacles people who don't know much about the game are putting up. Vets need to set the record straight 
This is very true (lol i always find myself agreeing with your perspective).
Ya this is the reason I just don't watch pvz unless it's a high profile game I dont understand how things time out and all I see are dragoons and zealots running around the map getting plauged.
It's basicly impossible for their to be a good caster. People like tasteless tend to cater heavily to the extreme noobs, day9 to a large spectrum of the lower and middle levels, and the youtube shoutcasters in general cater/ed to the mountains of viewers who really had little respect for the players and just where there to here the commentator praise the sucsessful ones, insult the shaky players and call zealots manlots.
Super highlevel guide commentaries could potentially satisfy very good players but it leaves the noobies totally oblivious. A good example are some of the quake comentaries done by top players that as an sc player, make seriously no sense. I can appricieate that the game is complicated but I can't actually understand whatsoever how the players are better than me becuase their skill is so abstract.
I think their might just be a flaw in the viewabillity of strategy games. Unlike a pure mechanical sport, you can't relate to their physical excellence and instead need someone else to teach you why this person is good. At each level of abillity, you need the caster to be somone operating just a couple steps ahead of you.
And then with no commentary you can learn very few new things. Aside from seeing a new build, mostly it's just reinforcing your own understanding of the game, and your not picking up on anything that could give you a greater respect for the players and thus a hiehtened enjoyment of the game. Good comentators will elaborate on an opponent and make you notice something you wouldn't have otherwise but wtihout them you will gain such little new understanding. Sometimes when I watch games I question if the only reason is becuase I like seeing over and over again, a terran tank line slaughter a bunch of goons.
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I enjoy ZvZ but that finals was extremely disappointing (and I wish Hydra vs Jaedong had been the final). Game 1 great convinced me that it is actually possible for hivetech to become a stable path in ZvZ and then games 2-4 he made terrible decisions and got outclassed and crushed.
But even as a person who loves ZvZ I think it is perfectly reasonable to be disappointed with a ZvZ finals. What makes a final good is how epic it is; Flash vs Jaedong is good but I would much rather have ggplay vs iris because tight back and forth games are way more epic and entertaining. There's a lot to like about the matchup but it is extremely rare for a ZvZ to produce that kind of game, and to my knowledge no ZvZ finals ever has (I think there have been 4 ZvZ finals; Savior vs Chojja and Savior vs Silver are the two I haven't seen but I'd be surprised if they were counterexamples).
I don't think it's fair to call Hydra an unknown player; he's very clearly at least the second best zerg in the world right now and the first legitimate challenge to Jaedong's reign as the top zerg player (the swarm only ever has one leader). Hydra is currently 9 points behind Jaedong in ELO, when was the last time another zerg came that close to Jaedong? When was the last time Jaedong wasn't the #1 zerg in ELO?
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Yeah, in terms of more in-depth analysis of games and understandings - translated articles (TvZ trends over the years and Nal_ra's opinion on TvP) and TLFEs and the occasional PL write-ups does really help the community grow : )
The Koreans have no problems such as these - probably because they have kick-ass commentators, an existing knowledgeable fanbase and boatloads of articles over the years. (although, they might have more fangirls/boys rather than people who'd just like to sit back and watch strategically-hard to grasp matches)
Hopefully someone will step up to the platter soon. Foreign fans of BW and TL really does need this.
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Completely agreed Chef. Very classy of you to write something like this.
Also, you're a very cute bunny.
On February 20 2011 17:03 Crunchums wrote:
I don't think it's fair to call Hydra an unknown player; he's very clearly at least the second best zerg in the world right now and the first legitimate challenge to Jaedong's reign as the top zerg player (the swarm only ever has one leader). Hydra is currently 9 points behind Jaedong in ELO, when was the last time another zerg came that close to Jaedong? When was the last time Jaedong wasn't the #1 zerg in ELO?
You're forgetting about Effort good sir  . While he may have not overtaken (?) Jaedong's ELO, he also didn't have a 5 game series with him, which makes it a tad misleading.
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On February 20 2011 10:46 Chef wrote:
I think that ZvZ is rock paper sissors is a misconception. Everyone tells that lie. It hasn't been true for like 6 years.
I disagree. I don't have statistics, but from observation, most ZvZs go as follows:
1. Player A and B pick builds blindly. Player A is at a build order advantage.
2. Various events occur that take a lot of skill and are claimed to be important.
3. Player A wins.
Even the (very atypical for ZvZ) MSL final was an example: in every game, there was a player with a build order advantage, and in every game, that player won. (If I remember correctly, first game was 12-hatch-in-base > 12-pool. Second game was 12-hatch-at-nat > 12-hatch-in-base. Third game was 12-hatch-at-nat > 12-pool. Fourth game was 9-pool-speed > 12-hatch-at-nat.) What happened in between, while sometimes interesting, turned out to be irrelevant: given only the initial build orders, anyone would be able to predict the winners of the games with 100% accuracy.
It's true that some players can, at times, rise above this pattern by being exceptionally good at step 2. Jaedong was, in the heyday of JvZ. The problem is that other zergs learned from Jaedong's mechanical perfection, and now there is very little difference between zergs when it comes to skill at step 2. That's why what happens in step 2 is usually irrelevant, with the result of the game being decided by the initial choice of builds.
I happen to find ZvZ quite entertaining at the zergling stage. It's the mutas that ruin it. Once they are out in a game without spores, the map layout becomes irrelevant, and there is essentially zero defender's advantage, meaning that any slight advantage gained by one player ends the game. It's a similar problem that battlecruisers have in TvT, a matchup that I also find entertaining before it reaches the mass-air-unit stage.
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On February 20 2011 19:25 blueblimp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 10:46 Chef wrote:
I think that ZvZ is rock paper sissors is a misconception. Everyone tells that lie. It hasn't been true for like 6 years. I disagree. I don't have statistics, but from observation, most ZvZs go as follows: 1. Player A and B pick builds blindly. Player A is at a build order advantage. 2. Various events occur that take a lot of skill and are claimed to be important. 3. Player A wins.
You mean like every match up ever?
There can't be a two builds that are on the exact same footing. Not even just in mirror matches, look at what happens if a protoss opens 12 nex in pvt. Or 3 hatch before pool in zvt.
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I think you need the statistics for that, otherwise you're subject to confirmation bias (you only remember the times when it was true, and not the times it was false). Usually what happens is that one player has a slight economic lead in the builds, and the other has a slight army lead. It's up to the player with the army lead to abuse that fact and try to pick off a drone or two, while catching up. Players have gotten really good at using the Zergling Speed timing window to help them do this.
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Croatia9529 Posts
On February 20 2011 10:09 Chef wrote:
So why the lack of feedback? Maybe it's going to sound obnoxious, but I am going to blame the way hype is getting buried on TL. How long was the article for the FINALS of the MSL up for on the front page (in that nice, clickable picture)? A few hours? I don't actually know, because despite checking this site quite often, I didn't see it until after the fact. Instead it got buried under some random announcements for preliminaries of SC2. Is that the way this site is going? I have to admit, it is disappointing for me.
Well at the moment, the site's main focus is SC2. Like YellOw said about BoxeR transferring to SC2: it's a shame, but I understand. Also a lot of people (TL admins too) have simply lost interest in BW for various reasons, so it's understandable that they will cater to the SC2 crowd more as they want to please the majority of the site visitors at the moment.
I actually don't mind how BW section here is turning into an underground scene with much more smaller community, but more closely related to each other. It's awesome to be a part of!
Also, I agree about your views on ZvZ match up. If I'm invested enough in players, ZvZ can be the most exhilarating game ever!
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On February 20 2011 17:55 Comeh wrote:Completely agreed Chef. Very classy of you to write something like this. Also, you're a very cute bunny. Show nested quote +On February 20 2011 17:03 Crunchums wrote:
I don't think it's fair to call Hydra an unknown player; he's very clearly at least the second best zerg in the world right now and the first legitimate challenge to Jaedong's reign as the top zerg player (the swarm only ever has one leader). Hydra is currently 9 points behind Jaedong in ELO, when was the last time another zerg came that close to Jaedong? When was the last time Jaedong wasn't the #1 zerg in ELO? You're forgetting about Effort good sir . While he may have not overtaken (?) Jaedong's ELO, he also didn't have a 5 game series with him, which makes it a tad misleading.
I am not forgetting about Effort; he was the 2nd best zerg for a while but he never really challenged Jaedong' reign.
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EPT
