• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 00:10
CET 06:10
KST 14:10
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7)11Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns6[BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 103SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-1822Weekly Cups (Dec 22-28): Classic & MaxPax win, Percival surprises3
StarCraft 2
General
Spontaneous hotkey change zerg Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-18 Weekly Cups (Dec 22-28): Classic & MaxPax win, Percival surprises
Tourneys
$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7) WardiTV Winter Cup WardiTV Mondays SC2 AI Tournament 2026 OSC Season 13 World Championship
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 508 Violent Night Mutation # 507 Well Trained Mutation # 506 Warp Zone Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes
Brood War
General
I would like to say something about StarCraft Potential ASL qualifier breakthroughs? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 10 SLON Grand Finals – Season 2
Strategy
Game Theory for Starcraft Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Awesome Games Done Quick 2026! Mechabellum Beyond All Reason Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL+ Announced
Blogs
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Physical Exercise (HIIT) Bef…
TrAiDoS
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2644 users

Day 3: A word on Brute Force

Blogs > Revilo
Post a Reply
Revilo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Germany23 Posts
October 23 2010 14:52 GMT
#1
I had a number of people suggest brute force as a viable option in solving these short build order problems. I was skeptical, since the number of possible moves in a build order quickly explode in complexity. However, I was not content just thinking about it and so I tried it out for myself. The results are not too surprising...

I based my algorithm on the game as much as possible. This means that I run a simulation of the game for each build order with a minimum time unit of 1 game second. This allows me to bound the searches I make for optimal build orders by declaring my goal units and a maximum time limit for them to be reached. Since I know how long a 6-pool should take to be optimal, I can set a limit below this by 1 second and let the algorithm compute all elements in the search tree as a benchmark for the worst case. Sadly this number becomes quite staggering as the algorithm goes on.

Before you hit the 18 second mark the only things that are really possible are drones, spawning pool, overlords, hatcheries, extractors, moving drones to scout... So there are not that many options but nevertheless quite a few. However, as soon as you add a spawning pool or any other tech units this number of options grows to 20, then 30, and finally 62. This means that at each leaf of the tree, a set of 62 new actions have to be checked for validity and whether they achieve the goal. Of course I am not doing blind brute force (that would be even more horrendous), instead I only allow a small set of options based on the currently available technology to the Zerg simulation. Still, a run of the algorithm over all possible moves up to game time 10 seconds takes 1000ms to calculate. Setting the limit to 16 game seconds takes over 26000ms, and going beyond 30 game seconds is too long to wait for.

In conclusion:
Don't use brute force for this problem unless you can narrow down your tech A LOT! By this I mean, if you want to get a build for X number of zerglings, make sure you only allow the algorithm to use direct paths of tech (drones, overlords, spawning pool, queen) and ditch anything that you know will not help (extractors, roach warren, etc...)

*****
Looking for practice partners on EU! Message me if you like :) "I dont wtach porn anymore, I watch Socke" - Rotterdam
Weasel-
Profile Joined June 2009
Canada1556 Posts
October 23 2010 15:50 GMT
#2
You don't have to check for something every second, I think it would be easier for your algorithm to simply order all of the things it can currently make and just make those things in some specific order whenever it has the cash to afford them.
gods_basement
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States305 Posts
October 23 2010 17:38 GMT
#3
On October 24 2010 00:50 Weasel- wrote:
You don't have to check for something every second, I think it would be easier for your algorithm to simply order all of the things it can currently make and just make those things in some specific order whenever it has the cash to afford them.


you're right. you should make your brute force build order optimizer to use build orders. i cant believe anyone didnt try this previously
(TT~TT)
Revilo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Germany23 Posts
October 23 2010 21:13 GMT
#4
The whole idea behind this is to set some target composition of units, say... 6 zerglings, and have the algorithm spit out the shortest way to get to that (in other words, a build order that is as fast as possible to get to 6 zerglings). And I do only do a set number of possible moves at the end of each build order. However, my simulator that checks how long each of those build orders takes in game time has to evaluate on some scale. That scale is the game second. Thats why the algorithm only starts getting slow beyond 18 game seconds (since it takes 17 game seconds to spawn a drone). The first move can only be one of maybe 6 or 7 moves. So here the search space is relatively small. Now once you reach the end of simulation for those 6 or 7 moves, each can now append another 6 or 7 (or more if tech has been unlocked) moves. This makes 36 to 49 buildorders to evaluate. A lot of these are illegal ones, and these I already filter out. However, once you hit the next level down you are already at 200 to 350 build orders. And that, although I have only 3 things building in the build orders.

As I stated before, you can make the algorithm more intelligent to speed things up by removing possible moves based on logic. However, you run the risk of excluding a possibility for a better solution in doing so and it no longer is "truly" brute force. This was only an experiment, but it has shown the core stats of the problem at hand. I will be revisiting Genetic Algorithms with more determination, since it seems the search space truly is IMMENSE!

I hope to release some code soon too Hold on tight!
Looking for practice partners on EU! Message me if you like :) "I dont wtach porn anymore, I watch Socke" - Rotterdam
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h 50m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RuFF_SC2 143
NeuroSwarm 130
Livibee 120
WinterStarcraft56
FoxeR 36
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 387
zelot 306
Snow 131
ZergMaN 75
Noble 22
Bale 19
Hm[arnc] 15
Icarus 7
League of Legends
JimRising 806
Counter-Strike
summit1g10390
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox495
Other Games
tarik_tv7326
ViBE127
Liquid`Ken18
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick5173
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 90
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 35
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Scarra1973
• Rush1426
• Lourlo997
• Stunt312
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
3h 50m
Wardi Open
8h 50m
Monday Night Weeklies
11h 50m
WardiTV Invitational
1d 6h
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
OSC
3 days
OSC
4 days
All Star Teams
4 days
INnoVation vs soO
sOs vs Scarlett
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
[ Show More ]
All Star Teams
5 days
MMA vs DongRaeGu
Rogue vs Oliveira
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
OSC
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-01-11
Big Gabe Cup #3
NA Kuram Kup

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
OSC Championship Season 13
Underdog Cup #3
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: W4
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Rongyi Cup S3
Thunderfire SC2 All-star 2025
Nations Cup 2026
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.