• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 10:25
CEST 16:25
KST 23:25
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!9[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
[$1250] International ShieldBattery League31Weekly Cups (October 5-11): Farewell to 5.0.162Rollback Netcode in Brood War1275.0.17 Patch Notes - October 7, 202624Weekly Cups Results (Sep 28-Oct 4)0
StarCraft 2
General
No more sc2 streamers on team liquid? Server Blocker SCII needs to put more weight on strategy and tact Terran AddOns placement How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR?
Tourneys
RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) $3,500 WardiTV Not-Summer Championship
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[G] How to playtest arcade maps [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 547 Temple Of Terror Mutation # 546 Catch the Train Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts
Brood War
General
Mineral gathering rate (boosted) for each patch Practice Partners (Official) Rollback Netcode in Brood War [Megathread] Daily Funny Videos GG Lan Fest Sofia, Bulgaria [this November]
Tourneys
[ASL22] Grand Finals [$1250] International ShieldBattery League 2v2v2v2 Tournament Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Simple Questions, Simple Answers Replay Review Process - What do you do?
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Dawn of War IV Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread The Chess Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
MLB/Baseball 2023 Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
The Link Between Gaming and …
TrAiDoS
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 9169 users

Day 3: A word on Brute Force

Blogs > Revilo
Post a Reply
Revilo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Germany23 Posts
October 23 2010 14:52 GMT
#1
I had a number of people suggest brute force as a viable option in solving these short build order problems. I was skeptical, since the number of possible moves in a build order quickly explode in complexity. However, I was not content just thinking about it and so I tried it out for myself. The results are not too surprising...

I based my algorithm on the game as much as possible. This means that I run a simulation of the game for each build order with a minimum time unit of 1 game second. This allows me to bound the searches I make for optimal build orders by declaring my goal units and a maximum time limit for them to be reached. Since I know how long a 6-pool should take to be optimal, I can set a limit below this by 1 second and let the algorithm compute all elements in the search tree as a benchmark for the worst case. Sadly this number becomes quite staggering as the algorithm goes on.

Before you hit the 18 second mark the only things that are really possible are drones, spawning pool, overlords, hatcheries, extractors, moving drones to scout... So there are not that many options but nevertheless quite a few. However, as soon as you add a spawning pool or any other tech units this number of options grows to 20, then 30, and finally 62. This means that at each leaf of the tree, a set of 62 new actions have to be checked for validity and whether they achieve the goal. Of course I am not doing blind brute force (that would be even more horrendous), instead I only allow a small set of options based on the currently available technology to the Zerg simulation. Still, a run of the algorithm over all possible moves up to game time 10 seconds takes 1000ms to calculate. Setting the limit to 16 game seconds takes over 26000ms, and going beyond 30 game seconds is too long to wait for.

In conclusion:
Don't use brute force for this problem unless you can narrow down your tech A LOT! By this I mean, if you want to get a build for X number of zerglings, make sure you only allow the algorithm to use direct paths of tech (drones, overlords, spawning pool, queen) and ditch anything that you know will not help (extractors, roach warren, etc...)

*****
Looking for practice partners on EU! Message me if you like :) "I dont wtach porn anymore, I watch Socke" - Rotterdam
Weasel-
Profile Joined June 2009
Canada1556 Posts
October 23 2010 15:50 GMT
#2
You don't have to check for something every second, I think it would be easier for your algorithm to simply order all of the things it can currently make and just make those things in some specific order whenever it has the cash to afford them.
gods_basement
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States305 Posts
October 23 2010 17:38 GMT
#3
On October 24 2010 00:50 Weasel- wrote:
You don't have to check for something every second, I think it would be easier for your algorithm to simply order all of the things it can currently make and just make those things in some specific order whenever it has the cash to afford them.


you're right. you should make your brute force build order optimizer to use build orders. i cant believe anyone didnt try this previously
(TT~TT)
Revilo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Germany23 Posts
October 23 2010 21:13 GMT
#4
The whole idea behind this is to set some target composition of units, say... 6 zerglings, and have the algorithm spit out the shortest way to get to that (in other words, a build order that is as fast as possible to get to 6 zerglings). And I do only do a set number of possible moves at the end of each build order. However, my simulator that checks how long each of those build orders takes in game time has to evaluate on some scale. That scale is the game second. Thats why the algorithm only starts getting slow beyond 18 game seconds (since it takes 17 game seconds to spawn a drone). The first move can only be one of maybe 6 or 7 moves. So here the search space is relatively small. Now once you reach the end of simulation for those 6 or 7 moves, each can now append another 6 or 7 (or more if tech has been unlocked) moves. This makes 36 to 49 buildorders to evaluate. A lot of these are illegal ones, and these I already filter out. However, once you hit the next level down you are already at 200 to 350 build orders. And that, although I have only 3 things building in the build orders.

As I stated before, you can make the algorithm more intelligent to speed things up by removing possible moves based on logic. However, you run the risk of excluding a possibility for a better solution in doing so and it no longer is "truly" brute force. This was only an experiment, but it has shown the core stats of the problem at hand. I will be revisiting Genetic Algorithms with more determination, since it seems the search space truly is IMMENSE!

I hope to release some code soon too Hold on tight!
Looking for practice partners on EU! Message me if you like :) "I dont wtach porn anymore, I watch Socke" - Rotterdam
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
22:00
King of the Hill #265
EmpressLilyy86
Liquipedia
AI Arena Tournament
01:00
Swiss - Round 6
Laughngamez YouTube
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ByuN 455
MindelVK 38
SHIN 37
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 48965
Calm 4327
EffOrt 1117
Horang2 923
Mini 559
Stork 470
firebathero 399
Soulkey 386
Soma 372
BeSt 370
[ Show more ]
actioN 251
Zeus 146
Hyuk 142
ggaemo 136
Snow 134
Leta 105
Last 101
Sharp 85
Killer 71
Sea.KH 59
910 57
Free 56
Shinee 51
Hyun 51
Pusan 49
hero 42
Barracks 40
PianO 37
Hm[arnc] 36
Creator 27
Sexy 26
ToSsGirL 23
JYJ 23
Trap 23
Sacsri 19
Bishop 17
HiyA 15
yabsab 12
Rock 11
sorry 11
Icarus 6
Dota 2
Gorgc5082
Dendi966
syndereN230
420jenkins207
Counter-Strike
fl0m480
Other Games
singsing2362
B2W.Neo1678
Beastyqt611
Khaldor458
Mlord437
XaKoH 264
crisheroes190
Liquid`Hasu173
TKL 170
KnowMe148
Hui .147
Fuzer 71
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Adnapsc2 19
• Response 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 8
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 5768
• WagamamaTV594
League of Legends
• Nemesis3806
• Jankos935
Other Games
• tFFMrPink 7
Upcoming Events
IPSL
1h 35m
BSL Open Qualifier
4h 35m
WardiTV Weekly
20h 35m
IntoTheTV X SOOP
1d 20h
PiGosaur Cup
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
3 days
FEL
5 days
FEL
6 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

ASL Season 22
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Copium Cup

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
IPSL Winter 2026-27
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
Acropolis #5 - GSC
HCC Season 3
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026

Upcoming

BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.