• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 14:50
CEST 20:50
KST 03:50
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2914Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
Weekly Cups (July 27-Aug 2): SHIN's big week0SC4ALL II: Brood War - $2500 - Dec 5-66SC4ALL II announced - $10,000 prize pool, Dec 5-63PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August)11Neeb returns to progaming; rejoins ONSYDE15
StarCraft 2
General
SC4ALL II: StarCraft 2 Player Announcement 2/8 Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) August World Ranking: Clem climbs to #2 Daily SC2 Player Grid - feedback wanted Weekly Cups (July 27-Aug 2): SHIN's big week
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event INu's Battles #19 2-Days Event SC4ALL II announced - $10,000 prize pool, Dec 5-6
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 537 Hostile Territory Mutation # 536 Railroad Switch Mutation # 535 Assembly of Vengeance
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Recent recommended BW games ASL22 General Discussion Making an Online Broodwar Manager Game [Personal Project Share] Terran Defense v0.60
Tourneys
2v2v2v2 Tournament [Megathread] Daily Proleagues SC4ALL II: Brood War - $2500 - Dec 5-6 Escore Tournament - Season 3
Strategy
Any training maps people recommend? Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread ZeroSpace Early Access is Now Live! Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
The Clem Fan Club INnoVation Fan Club The Scarlett Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 McBoner: A hockey love story
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
What is a Gamer?
TrAiDoS
Hello guys!
LIN1s
ASL S22 English Commentary…
namkraft
Poker (part 2)
Nebuchad
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 3278 users

Day 3: A word on Brute Force

Blogs > Revilo
Post a Reply
Revilo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Germany23 Posts
October 23 2010 14:52 GMT
#1
I had a number of people suggest brute force as a viable option in solving these short build order problems. I was skeptical, since the number of possible moves in a build order quickly explode in complexity. However, I was not content just thinking about it and so I tried it out for myself. The results are not too surprising...

I based my algorithm on the game as much as possible. This means that I run a simulation of the game for each build order with a minimum time unit of 1 game second. This allows me to bound the searches I make for optimal build orders by declaring my goal units and a maximum time limit for them to be reached. Since I know how long a 6-pool should take to be optimal, I can set a limit below this by 1 second and let the algorithm compute all elements in the search tree as a benchmark for the worst case. Sadly this number becomes quite staggering as the algorithm goes on.

Before you hit the 18 second mark the only things that are really possible are drones, spawning pool, overlords, hatcheries, extractors, moving drones to scout... So there are not that many options but nevertheless quite a few. However, as soon as you add a spawning pool or any other tech units this number of options grows to 20, then 30, and finally 62. This means that at each leaf of the tree, a set of 62 new actions have to be checked for validity and whether they achieve the goal. Of course I am not doing blind brute force (that would be even more horrendous), instead I only allow a small set of options based on the currently available technology to the Zerg simulation. Still, a run of the algorithm over all possible moves up to game time 10 seconds takes 1000ms to calculate. Setting the limit to 16 game seconds takes over 26000ms, and going beyond 30 game seconds is too long to wait for.

In conclusion:
Don't use brute force for this problem unless you can narrow down your tech A LOT! By this I mean, if you want to get a build for X number of zerglings, make sure you only allow the algorithm to use direct paths of tech (drones, overlords, spawning pool, queen) and ditch anything that you know will not help (extractors, roach warren, etc...)

*****
Looking for practice partners on EU! Message me if you like :) "I dont wtach porn anymore, I watch Socke" - Rotterdam
Weasel-
Profile Joined June 2009
Canada1556 Posts
October 23 2010 15:50 GMT
#2
You don't have to check for something every second, I think it would be easier for your algorithm to simply order all of the things it can currently make and just make those things in some specific order whenever it has the cash to afford them.
gods_basement
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States305 Posts
October 23 2010 17:38 GMT
#3
On October 24 2010 00:50 Weasel- wrote:
You don't have to check for something every second, I think it would be easier for your algorithm to simply order all of the things it can currently make and just make those things in some specific order whenever it has the cash to afford them.


you're right. you should make your brute force build order optimizer to use build orders. i cant believe anyone didnt try this previously
(TT~TT)
Revilo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Germany23 Posts
October 23 2010 21:13 GMT
#4
The whole idea behind this is to set some target composition of units, say... 6 zerglings, and have the algorithm spit out the shortest way to get to that (in other words, a build order that is as fast as possible to get to 6 zerglings). And I do only do a set number of possible moves at the end of each build order. However, my simulator that checks how long each of those build orders takes in game time has to evaluate on some scale. That scale is the game second. Thats why the algorithm only starts getting slow beyond 18 game seconds (since it takes 17 game seconds to spawn a drone). The first move can only be one of maybe 6 or 7 moves. So here the search space is relatively small. Now once you reach the end of simulation for those 6 or 7 moves, each can now append another 6 or 7 (or more if tech has been unlocked) moves. This makes 36 to 49 buildorders to evaluate. A lot of these are illegal ones, and these I already filter out. However, once you hit the next level down you are already at 200 to 350 build orders. And that, although I have only 3 things building in the build orders.

As I stated before, you can make the algorithm more intelligent to speed things up by removing possible moves based on logic. However, you run the risk of excluding a possibility for a better solution in doing so and it no longer is "truly" brute force. This was only an experiment, but it has shown the core stats of the problem at hand. I will be revisiting Genetic Algorithms with more determination, since it seems the search space truly is IMMENSE!

I hope to release some code soon too Hold on tight!
Looking for practice partners on EU! Message me if you like :) "I dont wtach porn anymore, I watch Socke" - Rotterdam
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 5h 10m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 133
BRAT_OK 99
Railgan 71
MindelVK 26
RushiSC 16
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 5227
Shuttle 333
Rock 22
Dota 2
canceldota75
Counter-Strike
fl0m1540
FalleN 603
shoxiejesuss88
Super Smash Bros
Chillindude19
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu304
Trikslyr64
Other Games
Grubby2366
FrodaN2020
Beastyqt733
ceh9492
C9.Mang0492
uThermal358
XaKoH 118
JuggernautJason99
UpATreeSC22
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV71
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 44
• Pr0nogo 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV684
Other Games
• imaqtpie884
• Shiphtur385
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
5h 10m
Replay Cast
14h 10m
Kung Fu Cup
16h 10m
Replay Cast
1d 5h
The PondCast
1d 15h
INu's Battles
1d 16h
Percival vs Cure
Classic vs Clem
Replay Cast
2 days
Escore
2 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
2 days
RSL Revival
3 days
herO vs SHIN
Clem vs Solar
Serral vs Rogue
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
4 days
WardiTV Weekly
5 days
The Patches Monday
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
PiG Sty Festival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-08-03
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
RSL Revival: Season 6
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026

Upcoming

Acropolis #5
Escore Tournament S3: W6
Escore Tournament S3: W7
CSLAN 4
ASL Season 22
Escore Tournament S3: W8
Acropolis #5 - TRS
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
Thunderpick World Champ.
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.