• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 10:50
CEST 16:50
KST 23:50
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Weekly Cups (July 13-19): Terran & Protoss rise; Zerg falters0Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2914Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7
Community News
Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16)65Reynor: GSL Loss Wasn't About Preparation Format16[IPSL] Spring 2026 Grand Finals - This Weekend!18Weekly Cups (July 6 - 12): Protoss strike back12BSL Season 22 Full Overview & Conclusion8
StarCraft 2
General
Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) How would you feel about frequent/monthly balance patches for SC2? Weekly Cups (July 13-19): Terran & Protoss rise; Zerg falters Clem: "I don't have that much hope in Blizzard" [D] Wireframe Casting Removed
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) WardiTV Summer Cup 2026 GSL CK #5 Race War HomeStory Cup 29
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
New Map Maker - Looking for Advice - Love or Hate Work In Progress Melee Maps [D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
Mutation # 535 Assembly of Vengeance The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 534 Burning Evacuation Mutation # 533 Die Together
Brood War
General
screpdb: new Starcraft reporting tool ASL22 General Discussion Animated Gateway NaDa's Body BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[IPSL] Spring 2026 Grand Finals - This Weekend! [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament - Season 3 Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers Creating a full chart of Zerg builds Relatively freeroll strategies
Other Games
General Games
ZeroSpace at Steam NextFest - Last free demo Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread How to buy a book - shipping from Korea to Europe The Games Industry And ATVI UK Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The HerO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Series you have seen recently...
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 McBoner: A hockey love story Tennis[sport]
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
Northern Ireland Global Starcraft The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Role of Gaming on Mental Hea…
TrAiDoS
ASL S22 English Commentary…
namkraft
Poker (part 2)
Nebuchad
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 22152 users

Day 3: A word on Brute Force

Blogs > Revilo
Post a Reply
Revilo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Germany23 Posts
October 23 2010 14:52 GMT
#1
I had a number of people suggest brute force as a viable option in solving these short build order problems. I was skeptical, since the number of possible moves in a build order quickly explode in complexity. However, I was not content just thinking about it and so I tried it out for myself. The results are not too surprising...

I based my algorithm on the game as much as possible. This means that I run a simulation of the game for each build order with a minimum time unit of 1 game second. This allows me to bound the searches I make for optimal build orders by declaring my goal units and a maximum time limit for them to be reached. Since I know how long a 6-pool should take to be optimal, I can set a limit below this by 1 second and let the algorithm compute all elements in the search tree as a benchmark for the worst case. Sadly this number becomes quite staggering as the algorithm goes on.

Before you hit the 18 second mark the only things that are really possible are drones, spawning pool, overlords, hatcheries, extractors, moving drones to scout... So there are not that many options but nevertheless quite a few. However, as soon as you add a spawning pool or any other tech units this number of options grows to 20, then 30, and finally 62. This means that at each leaf of the tree, a set of 62 new actions have to be checked for validity and whether they achieve the goal. Of course I am not doing blind brute force (that would be even more horrendous), instead I only allow a small set of options based on the currently available technology to the Zerg simulation. Still, a run of the algorithm over all possible moves up to game time 10 seconds takes 1000ms to calculate. Setting the limit to 16 game seconds takes over 26000ms, and going beyond 30 game seconds is too long to wait for.

In conclusion:
Don't use brute force for this problem unless you can narrow down your tech A LOT! By this I mean, if you want to get a build for X number of zerglings, make sure you only allow the algorithm to use direct paths of tech (drones, overlords, spawning pool, queen) and ditch anything that you know will not help (extractors, roach warren, etc...)

*****
Looking for practice partners on EU! Message me if you like :) "I dont wtach porn anymore, I watch Socke" - Rotterdam
Weasel-
Profile Joined June 2009
Canada1556 Posts
October 23 2010 15:50 GMT
#2
You don't have to check for something every second, I think it would be easier for your algorithm to simply order all of the things it can currently make and just make those things in some specific order whenever it has the cash to afford them.
gods_basement
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States305 Posts
October 23 2010 17:38 GMT
#3
On October 24 2010 00:50 Weasel- wrote:
You don't have to check for something every second, I think it would be easier for your algorithm to simply order all of the things it can currently make and just make those things in some specific order whenever it has the cash to afford them.


you're right. you should make your brute force build order optimizer to use build orders. i cant believe anyone didnt try this previously
(TT~TT)
Revilo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Germany23 Posts
October 23 2010 21:13 GMT
#4
The whole idea behind this is to set some target composition of units, say... 6 zerglings, and have the algorithm spit out the shortest way to get to that (in other words, a build order that is as fast as possible to get to 6 zerglings). And I do only do a set number of possible moves at the end of each build order. However, my simulator that checks how long each of those build orders takes in game time has to evaluate on some scale. That scale is the game second. Thats why the algorithm only starts getting slow beyond 18 game seconds (since it takes 17 game seconds to spawn a drone). The first move can only be one of maybe 6 or 7 moves. So here the search space is relatively small. Now once you reach the end of simulation for those 6 or 7 moves, each can now append another 6 or 7 (or more if tech has been unlocked) moves. This makes 36 to 49 buildorders to evaluate. A lot of these are illegal ones, and these I already filter out. However, once you hit the next level down you are already at 200 to 350 build orders. And that, although I have only 3 things building in the build orders.

As I stated before, you can make the algorithm more intelligent to speed things up by removing possible moves based on logic. However, you run the risk of excluding a possibility for a better solution in doing so and it no longer is "truly" brute force. This was only an experiment, but it has shown the core stats of the problem at hand. I will be revisiting Genetic Algorithms with more determination, since it seems the search space truly is IMMENSE!

I hope to release some code soon too Hold on tight!
Looking for practice partners on EU! Message me if you like :) "I dont wtach porn anymore, I watch Socke" - Rotterdam
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
WardiTV Weekly
11:00
WardiTV Mondays #96
WardiTV1436
IntoTheiNu 927
OGKoka 513
Rex151
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
OGKoka 513
Ryung 352
SHIN 241
Rex 151
RushiSC 37
ProTech34
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 6178
Bisu 2563
Shuttle 1847
Soulkey 690
EffOrt 658
Mini 608
BeSt 462
Soma 387
firebathero 334
Light 271
[ Show more ]
ZerO 269
Larva 224
Stork 224
Snow 202
actioN 149
Rush 129
Hyun 113
Dewaltoss 104
Pusan 87
ggaemo 81
Sea.KH 60
soO 48
Sexy 47
ToSsGirL 43
scan(afreeca) 43
JYJ 41
Free 38
910 31
JulyZerg 31
Aegong 21
HiyA 21
Hm[arnc] 19
yabsab 19
Sacsri 18
Terrorterran 17
Noble 12
ajuk12(nOOB) 11
Bale 10
Yoon 10
IntoTheRainbow 8
Dota 2
qojqva2674
syndereN307
canceldota62
League of Legends
Trikslyr0
Counter-Strike
x6flipin146
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor142
Other Games
singsing2493
B2W.Neo937
Lowko439
crisheroes322
Liquid`VortiX225
Hui .183
KnowMe128
QueenE27
ToD26
ZerO(Twitch)23
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2263
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 782
Other Games
BasetradeTV272
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 10
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 7
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• mYiSmile114
• Adnapsc2 7
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 13
• Michael_bg 6
• HerbMon 5
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis3594
Upcoming Events
Monday Night Weeklies
1h 10m
PiGosaur Cup
1d 9h
The PondCast
1d 19h
Kung Fu Cup
1d 20h
OSC
2 days
CrankTV Team League
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
CrankTV Team League
3 days
Korean StarCraft League
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Clem vs ByuN
Serral vs SHIN
[ Show More ]
Online Event
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
herO vs Solar
Rogue vs Lambo
WardiTV Weekly
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXIX
Eternal Conflict S2 E3

Ongoing

Acropolis #4
CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
SCTL 2026 Spring
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: W4
ASL S22 SEASON OPEN Day 2
Escore Tournament S3: W5
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
Light Tournament 2026
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale
Stake Ranked Episode 4
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.