• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 12:29
CEST 18:29
KST 01:29
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection1Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview4[ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies21Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO12 Preview2herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2026)7
Community News
StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th83Weekly Cups (May 18-25): MaxPax wins doubles0Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League4Weekly Cups (May 11-17): Classic wins double1Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO8 Results2
StarCraft 2
General
Changing from 12 to 8 is just asking for StarCraft StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th TL Poll: How do you feel about the 5.0.16 PTR balance changes? Weekly Cups (May 11-17): Classic wins double TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection
Tourneys
GSL Code S Season 2 (2026) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League GSL Code S Season 1 (2026) Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule !
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players
External Content
Welcome to the External Content forum Mutation # 527 Hell Train The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 526 Rubber and Glue
Brood War
General
FlaShFTW vs A.Alm Grudge Match Event BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ VPN experiences Every Matchup's Top 5 Winrates (all ASLs & KSLs) Pros React To: ASL S21 Finals
Tourneys
[ASL21] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 [BSL22] WB Final & LB Semis - Saturday 21:00 CEST
Strategy
Any training maps people recommend? Muta micro map competition [G] Hydra ZvZ: An Introduction Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread Path of Exile Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Trading/Investing Thread Dating: How's your luck?
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Customization Drives Loyalty…
TrAiDoS
Why RTS gamers make better f…
gosubay
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1946 users

Day 3: A word on Brute Force

Blogs > Revilo
Post a Reply
Revilo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Germany23 Posts
October 23 2010 14:52 GMT
#1
I had a number of people suggest brute force as a viable option in solving these short build order problems. I was skeptical, since the number of possible moves in a build order quickly explode in complexity. However, I was not content just thinking about it and so I tried it out for myself. The results are not too surprising...

I based my algorithm on the game as much as possible. This means that I run a simulation of the game for each build order with a minimum time unit of 1 game second. This allows me to bound the searches I make for optimal build orders by declaring my goal units and a maximum time limit for them to be reached. Since I know how long a 6-pool should take to be optimal, I can set a limit below this by 1 second and let the algorithm compute all elements in the search tree as a benchmark for the worst case. Sadly this number becomes quite staggering as the algorithm goes on.

Before you hit the 18 second mark the only things that are really possible are drones, spawning pool, overlords, hatcheries, extractors, moving drones to scout... So there are not that many options but nevertheless quite a few. However, as soon as you add a spawning pool or any other tech units this number of options grows to 20, then 30, and finally 62. This means that at each leaf of the tree, a set of 62 new actions have to be checked for validity and whether they achieve the goal. Of course I am not doing blind brute force (that would be even more horrendous), instead I only allow a small set of options based on the currently available technology to the Zerg simulation. Still, a run of the algorithm over all possible moves up to game time 10 seconds takes 1000ms to calculate. Setting the limit to 16 game seconds takes over 26000ms, and going beyond 30 game seconds is too long to wait for.

In conclusion:
Don't use brute force for this problem unless you can narrow down your tech A LOT! By this I mean, if you want to get a build for X number of zerglings, make sure you only allow the algorithm to use direct paths of tech (drones, overlords, spawning pool, queen) and ditch anything that you know will not help (extractors, roach warren, etc...)

*****
Looking for practice partners on EU! Message me if you like :) "I dont wtach porn anymore, I watch Socke" - Rotterdam
Weasel-
Profile Joined June 2009
Canada1556 Posts
October 23 2010 15:50 GMT
#2
You don't have to check for something every second, I think it would be easier for your algorithm to simply order all of the things it can currently make and just make those things in some specific order whenever it has the cash to afford them.
gods_basement
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States305 Posts
October 23 2010 17:38 GMT
#3
On October 24 2010 00:50 Weasel- wrote:
You don't have to check for something every second, I think it would be easier for your algorithm to simply order all of the things it can currently make and just make those things in some specific order whenever it has the cash to afford them.


you're right. you should make your brute force build order optimizer to use build orders. i cant believe anyone didnt try this previously
(TT~TT)
Revilo
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Germany23 Posts
October 23 2010 21:13 GMT
#4
The whole idea behind this is to set some target composition of units, say... 6 zerglings, and have the algorithm spit out the shortest way to get to that (in other words, a build order that is as fast as possible to get to 6 zerglings). And I do only do a set number of possible moves at the end of each build order. However, my simulator that checks how long each of those build orders takes in game time has to evaluate on some scale. That scale is the game second. Thats why the algorithm only starts getting slow beyond 18 game seconds (since it takes 17 game seconds to spawn a drone). The first move can only be one of maybe 6 or 7 moves. So here the search space is relatively small. Now once you reach the end of simulation for those 6 or 7 moves, each can now append another 6 or 7 (or more if tech has been unlocked) moves. This makes 36 to 49 buildorders to evaluate. A lot of these are illegal ones, and these I already filter out. However, once you hit the next level down you are already at 200 to 350 build orders. And that, although I have only 3 things building in the build orders.

As I stated before, you can make the algorithm more intelligent to speed things up by removing possible moves based on logic. However, you run the risk of excluding a possibility for a better solution in doing so and it no longer is "truly" brute force. This was only an experiment, but it has shown the core stats of the problem at hand. I will be revisiting Genetic Algorithms with more determination, since it seems the search space truly is IMMENSE!

I hope to release some code soon too Hold on tight!
Looking for practice partners on EU! Message me if you like :) "I dont wtach porn anymore, I watch Socke" - Rotterdam
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
IPSL
16:00
Ro16 Group C
ZZZero vs WorsT
Julia vs eOnzErG
Liquipedia
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
15:00
Season 2: Warm Up Cup #3
uThermal343
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 398
Ryung 358
uThermal 343
ProTech85
BRAT_OK 64
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 27799
Zeus 206
Last 117
Rock 33
Sexy 31
Sacsri 25
ajuk12(nOOB) 15
Dota 2
Gorgc5920
qojqva1273
Counter-Strike
fl0m1430
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor326
Liquid`Hasu258
Other Games
singsing3195
B2W.Neo586
Beastyqt328
Trikslyr45
Grubby32
fpsfer 1
Organizations
Other Games
EGCTV583
BasetradeTV286
Counter-Strike
PGL180
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Airneanach51
• Michael_bg 13
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos2091
• TFBlade1370
Upcoming Events
BSL
2h 31m
TerrOr vs Dewalt
Bonyth vs eOnzErG
Replay Cast
7h 31m
RSL Revival
14h 31m
Lambo vs Rogue
Clem vs TBD
herO vs TBD
Maestros of the Game
20h 31m
SHIN vs Nicoract
Rogue vs Gerald
ByuN vs Shameless
Cure vs TriGGeR
OSC
20h 31m
IPSL
23h 31m
Dragon vs Artosis
dxtr13 vs Hawk
BSL
1d 2h
Wardi Open
1d 19h
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 23h
Replay Cast
2 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
WardiTV Spring Champion…
2 days
Maestros of the Game
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Kung Fu Cup
3 days
Maestros of the Game
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
WardiTV Spring Champion…
4 days
Maestros of the Game
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
Maestros of the Game
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Solar vs Classic
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S2: King of Kings
2026 GSL S1
Heroes Pulsing #1

Ongoing

2026 KK StarCraft Pro League
BSL Season 22
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
KK 2v2 League Season 1
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
SCTL 2026 Spring
WardiTV Spring 2026
Maestros of the Game 2
2026 GSL S2
RSL Revival: Season 5
Murky Cup 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026

Upcoming

BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Heroes Pulsing #3
Heroes Pulsing #2
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.