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I hate this style of play that you have in SC2 right now. Just one base and bim. Why is it all based off 1 push? I have been losing to this today like 8 matches in a row, because i go for the econ and the macro, i expand early and try and build up my forces, but of course the other player just does some mass 1 base push to win the game T_T
what happened to the mass battles of BW which were followed by mass macro, followed by mass battles. It just feels cheap, that a single battle is the deciding factor each time, you rarely have more then 1 battle.
Every game where I had multiple skirmishes, had to fend off harrasment/harass the enemy players were the most fun for me (win or lose) but when I play an economic strat and just get killed by 1 basing it just really really pisses me off. I do love when i win DESPITE them interrupting/killing my expo with their one base. but seriously, it seems like all my replays are the same. PvP = mass stalkers off 1 base. PvT = mass bio off one base. Is this because im the gold league?
oh i can't wait for the new ladder season for the placement matches.
heres a replay, again im going for FE build off 3 gates and i get beaten by a 1 base. I'd love some people looking at this and telling me where i went wrong (Except for the missed split and late warp gate tech courtesy of 2 lag spikes)
http://www.sc2replayed.com//replays/81823-1v1-protoss-lost-temple
and please no condescending remarks, if i needed that i'd talk to my brother about BW -.-
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It's mostly due to the fact that it's a new game. 1 base strategies are simpler and easier to pull off, and if your opponent is going for an econ build and has not practiced or at least worked out how to stop your particular allin play, you'll win. In this way, players winning with 1 base play get positively reinforced to keep doing it and the cycle continues.
It's also because 1 base play is stronger in sc2 than bw due to decreased defender's advantage and mechanics like warp gates+chrono, MULES, and larvae spawn.
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"decreased defender's advantage"
decreased defender's advantage?
i thought they made static def stronger in sc2.
people 1 base play because all the map in sc2 are SMALL. very high risk low reward for any FE build on small map.
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It happens in every league as far as I know. I do the same thing and try to expand every game (even in PVP) How I see it is that I need to come up with a build order that lets me expand and protect it from that early push, so far Im about 65% successful so I need to keep working.
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Also, at this stage of StarCraft 2 playstyle-evolution, we still haven't found the right way to opt for an economical build based on fast expanding. Whereas Terrans had to make a Barracks and possibly a couple Marines with the possibility of having to throw in a Bunker to secure their FE against a Zerg, or whereas Protosses had to start out with two cannons, a wall-in, and the possibility of having to bring in a couple Probes to secure theirs, likewise we'll have to find out what exactly do we need to do or build in SC2 to be able to secure our fast expansions, and their respective follow ups.
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I watched your replay and to be honnest I think your loss is not due to the fact that you tried to do a FE.
You had no map control at all, the blue one controlled the tower with a probe the whole game and then build a pylon here to reinforce his army, you have to control this tower on lost temple, especialy when you're cross position with your opponent.
If you want to FE you need to know what your opponent is doing, in this case it was a late 4gate push with a terrible timing that was easily defendable with scouting.
Moreover you had 500-600 gaz in bank most of the game, you should have used it earlier.
Edit : First Post yeahhh !
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United States24799 Posts
I tend to lean towards one base play more because most expansions that my opponents try are not capable of defending 1 base play. The basic cycle:
1) My opponent expands too early with no regard for what I'm doing
2) I crush them
3) They complain about the inability to expand in the game or general imbalance or that my playstyle somehow sucks
4) Repeat with new opponent
And I also feel that expanding is slightly more difficult than sc1 although that could change as the game/gameplay evolve...
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everyone does 1base play so that you finally start learning how to defend. What else could be the reason?  so just defend and you win. why complain about that?
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On September 17 2010 04:41 jaw wrote:decreased defender's advantage? i thought they made static def stronger in sc2. people 1 base play because all the map in sc2 are SMALL. very high risk low reward for any FE build on small map.
by defender's advantage i think he means the fact that there is no high ground advantage.
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In BW you could secure your natural expansion against a Protoss fairly easily by way of Siege Tanks on the high ground. A one base Protoss player would get owned by missing Dragoon shots (which also have a slow-ass rate of fire) and Mines on the choke plus obstructing buildings.
Try Siege expanding in SC2 and see how you get owned by blinking Stalkers.
lol
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Make those large battles happen by surviving the one base, or by going one base and expanding at the right moment. I don't really understand the problem. Even if you one base (which you "hate") if you hold off you can expo and they'll either leave or try to catch up with you. Keep trying to get away with minimal defense and you'll find the right groove for expoing.
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Big rant... You should have just scouted, seen the one base all in build, changed your build, and profit. This is just a big rant to preach how you think people should play the game instead of realizing that it is you that needs to play the game better than you are.
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On September 17 2010 04:42 NukeTheBunnys wrote:
It happens in every league as far as I know. I do the same thing and try to expand every game (even in PVP) How I see it is that I need to come up with a build order that lets me expand and protect it from that early push, so far Im about 65% successful so I need to keep working.
Shameless plug.
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Calgary26003 Posts
I love threads like this. "I do something blindly and my opponent counters it. What the fuck?! What didn't he do what I wanted?!"
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Stop going for macro builds when you opponent is obviously doing the exact opposite, which rapes your dumb build. Just because you really, really, really want to try to pretend that SC2 is BW doesn't mean it is. What you're doing is just as stupid as a zerg going for a 6 pool, having it spotted, and merrily continuing along right into a prepared defense.
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I believe it has already been stated, but imo the maps are just too small for this type of play. 1 base works really well on almost every map in the ladder. Blizzard has barely balanced these maps since beta day 1, and that has to be a factor as to why somethings in the game are causing troubles.
One of the best parts about Broodwar was that servers like ICCup and PGTour used the newest proleague maps, which helped to maintain balance and also added a freshness to the game every few months.
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I think long macro games made BW less fun so it's rather nice to have lots of 1 base plays in SC2.
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All is fair in love and war!
Why is there EVER a reason to discount one base play? It's literally THE perfect counter to the econ style play you seem to be obsessed with. The whole idea behind econ builds is that they can potentially give you a huge advantage by taking a significant risk. The goal is to minimize this risk by building the correct units, the right amount of units, and thinking strategically.
You maximized this risk by doing zero scouting and adapting in almost every wrong way possible. Past your initial probe you had absolutely no idea what was going on in his base. From what we now know, he could've just teched straight to DTs and killed you.
Additionally, his forcefields just under your ramp were definitely solid.
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With the way saturation works in sc2 it's alot tougher to get the immediate advantage from an expo that you need to hold off a rush. I'm sure it will evolve and ways will be worked out but it is more difficult atm. 1 basing you can just sit with 16-24 workers on minerals and a fast expo will take a long time to catch up in unit count. It wasn't as easy to do in BW, the window for expo breaking was so much smaller with the diminishing returns for workers on 1 base.
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On September 17 2010 05:29 JustQuitWarcraftIII wrote:
I think long macro games made BW less fun so it's rather nice to have lots of 1 base plays in SC2.
1 base play is better than 3-4 base macro games? you don't even get to see most of the tech. The best bw games were macro games.
In sc2 expoing is harder because of the lack of high-ground-advantage and hard counters. Then again, any sort of macro game in sc2 atm is blob vs blob, so yeah those aren't thrilling, but sc2 is no bw.
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I blame the maps. Expanding does not look comfortable ever, like in Lost Temple or Desert Oasis, or expanding is too easy, like in Delta Quadrant. Even worse is that sometimes only your natural is even takeable; the third is ridiculously difficult to hold.
When max sized maps appear, we'll see the macro games. But that depends on whether Blizzard wants to cater to new players, who would rather have short 10 minutes of one base all-ins, than 40 to 60 minutes of intense macro every game.
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Maybe after this next patch(which focuses on nerfing alot of early pressure), FE will be more viable.
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I tend to expand after at most three unit-producing structures (as Protoss), with one or two if the opponent doesn't look aggressive. Is there really a need for four or five?
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You want to know why? The maps suck balls. They are too small. I have been trying to 1 rax FE for the longest time and keep getting crushed by 4 gate allin Protoss.
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On September 17 2010 05:26 Chill wrote:
I love threads like this. "I do something blindly and my opponent counters it. What the fuck?! What didn't he do what I wanted?!"
I'm not saying he shouldn't have done what he did. On the contrary, he won, therefore its good for him that he did that, what i am doing here is asking people's opinions on why 1 base play is so popular.
Off topic: love your casting of TL attack and TLOwnage, you're hilarious dude :D
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The map pool doesnt help too.
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On September 17 2010 07:50 PlaGuE_R wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 05:26 Chill wrote:
I love threads like this. "I do something blindly and my opponent counters it. What the fuck?! What didn't he do what I wanted?!" I'm not saying he shouldn't have done what he did. On the contrary, he won, therefore its good for him that he did that, what i am doing here is asking people's opinions on why 1 base play is so popular. Off topic: love your casting of TL attack and TLOwnage, you're hilarious dude :D
It's popular because there's a lot of short distance maps, and people like you play blindly or refuse to change. That equals a free win for just about anyone who thinks for two seconds, adapts, and micros.
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I just push one base, then expand while I'm doing so. That way I can get a good expansion, as most of them 1 base and don't attack for while. I have a lot of time to get up economy and get a good push, push and then push. It's fun.
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On September 17 2010 08:05 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 07:50 PlaGuE_R wrote:On September 17 2010 05:26 Chill wrote:
I love threads like this. "I do something blindly and my opponent counters it. What the fuck?! What didn't he do what I wanted?!" I'm not saying he shouldn't have done what he did. On the contrary, he won, therefore its good for him that he did that, what i am doing here is asking people's opinions on why 1 base play is so popular. Off topic: love your casting of TL attack and TLOwnage, you're hilarious dude :D It's popular because there's a lot of short distance maps, and people like you play blindly or refuse to change. That equals a free win for just about anyone who thinks for two seconds, adapts, and micros.
I don't play blindly -.- I uploaded that replay cuz it was the most recent one but that was for a cup and i was nervous so i made some mistakes. I know I made some mistakes, I'm not an idiot, and there's no need to be condescending about it -.-
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On September 17 2010 05:47 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 05:29 JustQuitWarcraftIII wrote:
I think long macro games made BW less fun so it's rather nice to have lots of 1 base plays in SC2. 1 base play is better than 3-4 base macro games? you don't even get to see most of the tech. The best bw games were macro games. In sc2 expoing is harder because of the lack of high-ground-advantage and hard counters. Then again, any sort of macro game in sc2 atm is blob vs blob, so yeah those aren't thrilling, but sc2 is no bw.
Well the thing is BW has too many long macro games. I'm not suggesting that every game should be about 1 base plays but it's nice to see some quick actions like back in 2001-2003. If macro games were so good then why would people hate FlaSh? He's the perfect macro player.
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On September 17 2010 10:51 JustQuitWarcraftIII wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 05:47 moopie wrote:On September 17 2010 05:29 JustQuitWarcraftIII wrote:
I think long macro games made BW less fun so it's rather nice to have lots of 1 base plays in SC2. 1 base play is better than 3-4 base macro games? you don't even get to see most of the tech. The best bw games were macro games. In sc2 expoing is harder because of the lack of high-ground-advantage and hard counters. Then again, any sort of macro game in sc2 atm is blob vs blob, so yeah those aren't thrilling, but sc2 is no bw. Well the thing is BW has too many long macro games. I'm not suggesting that every game should be about 1 base plays but it's nice to see some quick actions like back in 2001-2003. If macro games were so good then why would people hate FlaSh? He's the perfect macro player.
flash turtles. 2 base play is not turtling. there are plenty of timing pushes in bw that are 2base. 3hatch hydra, 6fact, and pretty much every pvz build nowadays is a 2base build.
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On September 17 2010 11:15 seRapH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 10:51 JustQuitWarcraftIII wrote:On September 17 2010 05:47 moopie wrote:On September 17 2010 05:29 JustQuitWarcraftIII wrote:
I think long macro games made BW less fun so it's rather nice to have lots of 1 base plays in SC2. 1 base play is better than 3-4 base macro games? you don't even get to see most of the tech. The best bw games were macro games. In sc2 expoing is harder because of the lack of high-ground-advantage and hard counters. Then again, any sort of macro game in sc2 atm is blob vs blob, so yeah those aren't thrilling, but sc2 is no bw. Well the thing is BW has too many long macro games. I'm not suggesting that every game should be about 1 base plays but it's nice to see some quick actions like back in 2001-2003. If macro games were so good then why would people hate FlaSh? He's the perfect macro player. flash turtles. 2 base play is not turtling. there are plenty of timing pushes in bw that are 2base. 3hatch hydra, 6fact, and pretty much every pvz build nowadays is a 2base build.
You're definitely right and I made a mistake there by equating any play with more than one base to macro. However, the OP was wants "mass battles of BW which were followed by mass macro, followed by mass battles". Since timing pushes tend to not result in such, 2 base plays in BW as you described still don't match his definition of macro games. Rather they fit the "one battle decides the outcome" scenario more, which the OP has a problem with in regards to 1 base plays in SC2.
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On September 17 2010 14:48 JustQuitWarcraftIII wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 11:15 seRapH wrote:On September 17 2010 10:51 JustQuitWarcraftIII wrote:On September 17 2010 05:47 moopie wrote:On September 17 2010 05:29 JustQuitWarcraftIII wrote:
I think long macro games made BW less fun so it's rather nice to have lots of 1 base plays in SC2. 1 base play is better than 3-4 base macro games? you don't even get to see most of the tech. The best bw games were macro games. In sc2 expoing is harder because of the lack of high-ground-advantage and hard counters. Then again, any sort of macro game in sc2 atm is blob vs blob, so yeah those aren't thrilling, but sc2 is no bw. Well the thing is BW has too many long macro games. I'm not suggesting that every game should be about 1 base plays but it's nice to see some quick actions like back in 2001-2003. If macro games were so good then why would people hate FlaSh? He's the perfect macro player. flash turtles. 2 base play is not turtling. there are plenty of timing pushes in bw that are 2base. 3hatch hydra, 6fact, and pretty much every pvz build nowadays is a 2base build. You're definitely right and I made a mistake there by equating any play with more than one base to macro. However, the OP was wants "mass battles of BW which were followed by mass macro, followed by mass battles". Since timing pushes tend to not result in such, 2 base plays in BW as you described still don't match his definition of macro games. Rather they fit the "one battle decides the outcome" scenario more, which the OP has a problem with in regards to 1 base plays in SC2.
exactly what I'm saying ^_^
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EPT
