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I've been lurking this site since 2006, and finally joined some time in early 2009/late 2008 just to get in on some of the rabid fanboyism that had been eating me up inside. (Mostly for July and CJ). During my time perusing the wonderful site that is Teamliquid I was again and again struck speechless by the well mannered, and quality posts that the vast majority of users would put out there. Sure, some of it was irrelevant and silly, occasionally downright "herp derp" in nature, but as a general rule it was all in good fun.
During this time reading the words of the forum veteran's instilled a sense of awe, respect, a little fear, and, perhaps most importantly, tradition. This site felt like a place where there was history, and it was certainly a respectable history at that. I didn't post much. Hell, I still don't, but it wasn't because I didn't have anything to say, it was because I constantly considered whether my saying anything would be WORTH anything to the site. Just take a glance through the Final Edits section, even a couple of the older threads on strategy...(though some of those admittedly are a bit...underwhelming xD) and you'll get an idea of WHY I was hesitant to just post any random, "HUHUHUHU, HEY GUIZE! WHAT ABOUT SCOUTS IN PVZ!?!" comment that might be floating around in my head.
Bring us to today.
Exhibit A
Not to say the thread topic is useless (though I personally think it is) but just look through the posts. On second thought, don't. It's just too painful.
Instead let's look at Exhibit B
Instead of linking the myriad and and endless threads on the perceived TvZ imbalance, I'll just throw this out there to get my point across. While I'm at it, I'd like to thank mahnini for properly expressing my feelings on a given topic in such an eloquent way. You sir, are a King amongst Doctors.
Is there a real point to this? Yes. I'm frustrated with the tone alot of the threads have had lately; whiney, simpering, and full of "IMO, LOLOLOL". If you have a crappy opinion, do as I do, and make it a blog, not a thread.
And no, I'm not blind to the irony in bitching about other people bitching, so don't bother bringing it up.
  
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im not sure if TL was ever as grand if you remember it. Rose colored glasses you know, and wonderful nostalgia. Also how old are you? perhaps you are out growing this site, becuase it's user age is going no where but down. Also what can you expect with all of the new flood of noobs? SC2 is bringing the entire internet in by the boat loads, and i guess you just kind of have to expect some of the garbage to be washed in right with it.
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On August 29 2010 15:08 Ramiel wrote:
im not sure if TL was ever as grand if you remember it. Rose colored glasses you know, and wonderful nostalgia. Also how old are you? perhaps you are out growing this site, becuase it's user age is going no where but down. Also what can you expect with all of the new flood of noobs? SC2 is bringing the entire internet in by the boat loads, and i guess you just kind of have to expect some of the garbage to be washed in right with it.
Duely noted points all. However, no. There has DEFINITELY been a rapid increase in the number of shit posts. And yeah, the flood of people brought on by the advent of SC2 was expected...but come on, think before you post people.
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On August 29 2010 15:07 thedeadhaji wrote:internet plague has reached TL kingdom 
it was inevitable. most anticipated sequel ever + best sc website ever =
for the most part, it stays in the sc2 forums, which is fine with me :D
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i just don't understand all of the hype... sc2 is not a good game, and it's not going to be. (i think most people understand this, but have to much invested in the game to actually take a long hard look at it.) I can only imagine the cluster fuck of a game sc2 is going to look like with 2 more expansions lol! just let that sink in- 2 more expansions... we are going to have red alert here.
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I haven't been lurking on TL very long, since 2007 or so, still when the BW scene was kicking, and I agree with you, SC2 brought an influx of new blood to a community that was incredibly well mannered and mature. The only thing that we could really do is have good moderators that keep the shit out of the forums, and teach the new posters the rules, and how TL has to be.
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well i think tl admins are already on this. We have more ban hammers now that there are more posters. But like you said some ideas or threads still leak through. threads will never be the same.
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^_^
It feels so good to not be alone...
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Your sig quote ruins it all =(
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On August 29 2010 15:29 Djzapz wrote:
Your sig quote ruins it all =(
Which one? The Mises quote? Or the Lurker comment? Couldn't be the CJ one...since everyone loves the Entusmen 
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For all the low quality posts though, TL is still an amazing site and extremely well modded. Even though many useless posts may be made, if they are extremely useless the mods are quick to close the thread or temp ban people who are not following the TL philosophy. In time as the community matures a little I believe TL will slowly bring its users back up to where they used to be on average, that is the power of TL. Trust in it.
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Yeah, I don't like it either. Even from those self-proclaimed 700+ diamonds, that doesn't make their opinion relevant.
In the state of critical thinking, a practice which should be used for proper balance, all opinions are irrelevant, even that of top-tier tournament-winning paid professionals.. That isn't to say they are wrong, but that opinions come from emotion, and emotional judgments are improper- all people do is look out for their best interests and not the best interest of the game.
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On August 29 2010 15:31 Kimaker wrote:Which one? The Mises quote? Or the Lurker comment? Couldn't be the CJ one...since everyone loves the Entusmen
NOTE: I'm just answering your question, this is off topic.
Your quote about socialism from Mises, yep - though you may be using it properly, currently in the US, it seems to me like most people don't even know what the word even means. Also, I've had to argue with people who said "socialism leads to communism", and those people will argue that any social program is "socialism".
I'm tired and this is my second language so I'm having trouble finding my words but yeah, every successful country in the world uses a fair amount of socialism. So which countries are socialist? Where do we draw the line? Is ANY amount of "socialism" bad?
I just think it's kind of ambiguous, especially since Fox News bastardized the term.
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While I may be fairly new to TL.net, I've heard the moderation these days is some of the best, and I even see some of it in action. The best way to do something about this yourself is to not reply to threads you don't like. If you flame them, it gets bumped. If you post in them at all, they get bumped. Threads become more popular the more controversial they are. When threads continue to to get many hits, become popular, and stay at the top of the forums, they become more acceptable.
So just remember, acting fuel to the fire doesn't put it out. If you attack someone because you don't like what they post, they'll respond. So will others. It will be bumped several times. Don't like it, don't reply. That's always been my rule for forums, unless I'm trying to help someone with where they misplaced their thread.
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On August 29 2010 15:43 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 15:31 Kimaker wrote:On August 29 2010 15:29 Djzapz wrote:
Your sig quote ruins it all =( Which one? The Mises quote? Or the Lurker comment? Couldn't be the CJ one...since everyone loves the Entusmen NOTE: I'm just answering your question, this is off topic. Your quote about socialism from Mises, yep - though you may be using it properly, currently in the US, it seems to me like most people don't even know what the word even means. Also, I've had to argue with people who said "socialism leads to capitalism", and those people will argue that any social program is "socialism". I'm tired and this is my second language so I'm having trouble finding my words but yeah, every successful country in the world uses a fair amount of socialism. So which countries are socialist? Where do we draw the line? Is ANY amount of "socialism" bad? I just think it's kind of ambiguous, especially since Fox News bastardized the term.
There are some serious misconceptions going on nowadays as to what constitutes what in terms of economics, on both sides. I've heard self-proclaimed socialists revile "Capitalism" and then when pressed, the system they profess to hate is in actually Corporatism, which is antithetical to most Capitalist approaches. Conversely, I know what you mean about the bastardization of the term in the US, it seems to suddenly have become synonomous for some amalgamation of Communism, Social Democracy, and Corporatism, which has no distinct name and is just some vague concept most people have in their heads of "I don't want this."
The way I understand socialism is in a purely economic sense, and in my opinion, yes Socialism is bad, but that is neither here nor there.
Wow, I just derailed my own blog xD
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My bad =(
PS: I edited my post. Nobody said "socialism leads to capitalism"
Rather: "socialism leads to communism" is what I hear too often =P
Anyway that's all. Proceed!
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Damn how can you lurk the sites for so long without commenting? There are just some people on TL you have to quote and call that opinion idiotic, and sometimes you just have to thank this one person. I envy your endurance =O
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The recent influx of crappy posters I believe also comes with a number of quality members. However I also believe that fools generally speak louder (I started posting less when I realized how terrible my posts were lol).
I guess once SC2 gets older, the only people left over will be those who have a reason to stay (improve their SC2 play or contribute to the community in some way). There will always be shitty posters and knowing TL, the staff will work their hardest to keep this the best community on the internet. It'll just take some time before the number of bitching and whining posts decrease to the point it was before the beta.
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Man i am in the same position as you are and i agree with this. I don't want to blame anything, but we should probably thank to SC2 for these low quality "bullshit LOL OMG WTF IMBA" posters. Somewhere deep in my heart, i wish that SC2 has never came and we could be able to build foreign e-sports with bw and maintain the great community around it. Well things change and only possibility is to give it a time and the community will be cleaned up from the garbage.. as power91 from Bahrain said..
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On August 29 2010 15:04 Kimaker wrote:I've been lurking this site since 2006, and finally joined some time in early 2009/late 2008 just to get in on some of the rabid fanboyism that had been eating me up inside. (Mostly for July and CJ). During my time perusing the wonderful site that is Teamliquid I was again and again struck speechless by the well mannered, and quality posts that the vast majority of users would put out there. Sure, some of it was irrelevant and silly, occasionally downright "herp derp" in nature, but as a general rule it was all in good fun. During this time reading the words of the forum veteran's instilled a sense of awe, respect, a little fear, and, perhaps most importantly, tradition. This site felt like a place where there was history, and it was certainly a respectable history at that. I didn't post much. Hell, I still don't, but it wasn't because I didn't have anything to say, it was because I constantly considered whether my saying anything would be WORTH anything to the site. Just take a glance through the Final Edits section, even a couple of the older threads on strategy...(though some of those admittedly are a bit...underwhelming xD) and you'll get an idea of WHY I was hesitant to just post any random, "HUHUHUHU, HEY GUIZE! WHAT ABOUT SCOUTS IN PVZ!?!" comment that might be floating around in my head. Bring us to today. Exhibit ANot to say the thread topic is useless (though I personally think it is) but just look through the posts. On second thought, don't. It's just too painful. Instead let's look at Exhibit BInstead of linking the myriad and and endless threads on the perceived TvZ imbalance, I'll just throw this out there to get my point across. While I'm at it, I'd like to thank mahnini for properly expressing my feelings on a given topic in such an eloquent way. You sir, are a King amongst Doctors. Is there a real point to this? Yes. I'm frustrated with the tone alot of the threads have had lately; whiney, simpering, and full of "IMO, LOLOLOL". If you have a crappy opinion, do as I do, and make it a blog, not a thread. And no, I'm not blind to the irony in bitching about other people bitching, so don't bother bringing it up.
So your example of a bad thread is a thread that is actually pretty good and points out something everyone who watched the MLG yesterday noticed.
Complaining about complaining, fantastic.
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yeah i notice theres like 4-5 times as many people visiting than a couple years back when it was just an SC1 site
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Yeah I've noticed it as well, it is definitely connected to the SC2.
So let's call it the SC2 plague.
I've been here on this site for some time now - I think it's almost 5 years.
I've noticed that some of the mods have become more mature over the time, and the administration is definitelly way better today.
But the ordinary people... the comunity has grown a lot, but a lot of the new people are probably really unmature kids. Claiming they know everything and are all-skillful but just hide behind the big curtain of lies and arrogance.
It seems to reflect the common world more though, where there is only a small percent of exceptional people to the whole.
I guess that less demanding game(on skill), will bring people with lesser qualities in general as well.
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On August 29 2010 19:43 LastWish wrote:
Yeah I've noticed it as well, it is definitely connected to the SC2.
So let's call it the SC2 plague.
I've been here on this site for some time now - I think it's almost 5 years.
I've noticed that some of the mods have become more mature over the time, and the administration is definitelly way better today.
But the ordinary people... the comunity has grown a lot, but a lot of the new people are probably really unmature kids. Claiming they know everything and are all-skillful but just hide behind the big curtain of lies and arrogance.
It seems to reflect the common world more though, where there is only a small percent of exceptional people to the whole.
I guess that less demanding game(on skill), will bring people with lesser qualities in general as well.
It's definitely SC2 that brought all these new people in. The lack of skill required in SC2 in comparison to BW however isn't the reason for that. It's more of the fancy graphics imo which attracts a younger and less mature generation as many older and more mature gamers generally don't really care as much about graphics (people on this site play a 12 year old game ffs).
I like to believe that the ratio of mature:immature people in TL is still fairly similar to how it was say a year ago, but as I said in my previous post, the fools tend to speak louder.
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I am optimistic with good moderating this will resolve with time. Bad posters will eventually either improve, be banned, or accept TL isnt for them and move on.
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I´ve heard the almighty rekrul had a solution to this problem years ago..
it had something to do with the Kraken....
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On August 29 2010 22:09 Affluenza wrote:
Zerg still need numerous patches from the looks of it...
Zerglings - Speedlings seem to have too much of a cannon fodder utility to them.
Hydra - Speed increase and HP of 100 plz oh and make me viable in ZvT by giving me armour unit bonus damage of 2 or 3+. Tank and Psystorm fodder is what Hydralisk is atm.
Roach - Give me back my Armour and give me speed from the off also range increase to 4 plz k thanks!
Queen - Should not need Spawning pool. Faster spawn larvae cycles maybe 35 seconds.
Spire - Lower the Spire time 10-15 seconds
Infestor - Neural Parasite needs to be at least 20 or 30 seconds
Spine Crawler - Marauder fodder. Spines should not be considered a structure.
Overseer - Needs a 25 reduction maybe even a 50 gas reduction!
Adrenal Glands Needs a buff!
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
All I can say is we do our best to keep the forums clean, fun and kickass. I think you will struggle to find a forum of comparable size with better posts, but there's always room for improvement of course!
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Well what do you expect? Sc2 caused a massive wave of people to join, so obviously the post quality is seemingly going to deteriorate (you only notice the bad posts). There's still several good threads in the Sc2 ssection, its just theres also a lot of immature people too.
I really don't mind imbalance threads though. I think its pretty naiive of us to assume a game would be balanced this early on.
Also, Sc2 is newer and a lot more flashy, with better graphics, so its bound to attract way more kids than BW, whose age and graphics only make it appeal to a more hardcore and older (dare I say more mature?) fanbase
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On August 29 2010 22:58 Plexa wrote:
All I can say is we do our best to keep the forums clean, fun and kickass. I think you will struggle to find a forum of comparable size with better posts, but there's always room for improvement of course!
I don't mean to complain in any way about the admins. You guys are doing phenomenally and I salute your valiant efforts. The banling change was certainly a move in the right direction, that can only help the site out. My complaint is more about the quality of the average poster than anything ^_^
And perhaps I was spoiled regarding the timing of my joining?
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On August 29 2010 19:23 faction123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2010 15:04 Kimaker wrote:I've been lurking this site since 2006, and finally joined some time in early 2009/late 2008 just to get in on some of the rabid fanboyism that had been eating me up inside. (Mostly for July and CJ). During my time perusing the wonderful site that is Teamliquid I was again and again struck speechless by the well mannered, and quality posts that the vast majority of users would put out there. Sure, some of it was irrelevant and silly, occasionally downright "herp derp" in nature, but as a general rule it was all in good fun. During this time reading the words of the forum veteran's instilled a sense of awe, respect, a little fear, and, perhaps most importantly, tradition. This site felt like a place where there was history, and it was certainly a respectable history at that. I didn't post much. Hell, I still don't, but it wasn't because I didn't have anything to say, it was because I constantly considered whether my saying anything would be WORTH anything to the site. Just take a glance through the Final Edits section, even a couple of the older threads on strategy...(though some of those admittedly are a bit...underwhelming xD) and you'll get an idea of WHY I was hesitant to just post any random, "HUHUHUHU, HEY GUIZE! WHAT ABOUT SCOUTS IN PVZ!?!" comment that might be floating around in my head. Bring us to today. Exhibit ANot to say the thread topic is useless (though I personally think it is) but just look through the posts. On second thought, don't. It's just too painful. Instead let's look at Exhibit BInstead of linking the myriad and and endless threads on the perceived TvZ imbalance, I'll just throw this out there to get my point across. While I'm at it, I'd like to thank mahnini for properly expressing my feelings on a given topic in such an eloquent way. You sir, are a King amongst Doctors. Is there a real point to this? Yes. I'm frustrated with the tone alot of the threads have had lately; whiney, simpering, and full of "IMO, LOLOLOL". If you have a crappy opinion, do as I do, and make it a blog, not a thread. And no, I'm not blind to the irony in bitching about other people bitching, so don't bother bringing it up. So your example of a bad thread is a thread that is actually pretty good and points out something everyone who watched the MLG yesterday noticed. Complaining about complaining, fantastic.
Either someone didn't read, or they're trying to be funny.
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From the perspective of a Gold 550+ noob:
I stumbled across the awesomeness which is the web site TeamLiquid. I can remember long ago that when I stilled played BW that I also visited this site. It is really interesting to find out that this site is experiencing a "LOL WTF IMBA" phase. But as many posters above have stated I truly believe this will fade.
This actually bothers me less than the other trend that is so strong here... The negative vibes in terms of SC2. These feelings towards the single player and multi player of sc2 seems to me to be from the perspective of the Elites (maybe I am such a noob that almost everybody is an elite  ). I can only present 2 main motivations for my opinion.
Firstly this has been the first time ever that I am able to play a proper fast paced RTS with all my lazy ass friends. It appeals to much bigger audience which is ultimately very good. Everybody I know says SC2>SC1. Flawed but its fresh. While still having the same SC1 features such as a fast paced decision making and the [Oh NOES the XelNage tower has spotted a ball of units on its way] feelings that feels like you are playing Counter Strike in RTS format. There isn't massive variety in strategy, but rather the timing of attacks and expansions, proper engagement positioning and then also army counters is what makes SC2 fun and according me is the same as SC1 (even if SC1 can be argued to have more variety).
Then the last main argument that does not apply to all. I live in South Africa and we have the crappiest internet in the world. I pay $80 US per month for crappy 386kb ADSL uncapped connection. I am shaped to hell during day time hours and still I experience no lag and only a slight 1 second delay when playing online. If only one thing is true or better than SC1 then it can be said its logistics. I can finally game online without resorting to illegal emulated local servers.
Blizzard has created the logistical platform to carry SC into the future. I also trust Blizzard without question to do two things. Milk money from me (WoW as best example, not anymore) and to improve SC2 in all facets tremendously over time. Look at how much WoW changed.
The bottom line is that I think TL's pros, semi-pros and seemingly hundreds of diamonds need to embrace change. The mods have a tough job to do to curb the whiners, but should consider to also more strictly look at the EMO hate for SC2. I feel so strongly about this that I registered even though I absolutely hate posting in forums. (Another testament why TL is awesome)
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yeah I wish there were more quality OPs in sc2 strategy. TL needs more banlings? or maybe more prominent posting guidelines?
I think average quality should improve with time though. give it a year or two.
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EPT
