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I'm a hardcore atheist and I don't fear death.
Well, that's when I look at it logically. I see life as maximizing how content I am. It sounds really selfish right now, but bear with me as I explain it. I'll just call how content I am 'happiness'. Remember this. So how does one maximize happiness?
1. You can do what makes you happy. Guidelines and principles ingrained in your brain are what determines what you should do to make you happy. Hungry? Go eat. Like video games? Play them. Want good grades? Study. Wanna help the old lady cross the street? Do it. Wanna help suffering children? Donate. Feel that upholding principles is more important than 'supposed material happiness'? Uphold those principles (this is where people usually flaw, maybe I'll write a post explaining this later). Do what you gotta do to be happy.
2. Change your guidelines and principles. This is obviously a lot harder to do in most situations, but it works. Like video games and wanna play them? The first way to approach this was to play them, as stated above. The second way is to unlike video games. If you don't like them, you'll be fine without playing them. Getting bad grades makes you disappointed in yourself? You can either get good grades, as stated in the first method, or you can convince yourself that getting bad grades is ok; basically force yourself not to care. If you don't care about bad grades, getting them won't affect your happiness. Same for most things, except stuff that is hard/impossible to change. Hungry? You can't unhungry yourself. You gotta eat.
One example of these two methods is cutting in line. If you could cut in line without consequence, would you do it? Let's take Moral Joe. He knows that cutting in line is wrong. So he doesn't do it. He's happy. But can he be more happy? What if he convinced himself that cutting in line is ok? That he has an intrinsic right to cut in line? Then he'll do it, and he'll be happy. In fact, probably more happy than Moral Joe, because he just got to get on the rollercoaster without waiting, and he has more time for the other rides.
This is just something to consider, not something I'm advocating. Immoral Joe will probably end up being less happy than Moral Joe because cutting in line has other repercussions, besides feeling guilt. If you go to the amusement park with your friends or family, they'll hold you in lower regard. They'll yell at you, you'll ruin their amusement park day by embarrassing them, you'll feel bad about that, everyone's day is ruined. Happiness was far from maximized. But Immoral Joe could continue changing his principles. He could not care about his family's reputation and how his family sees him, or how everyone sees Joe as a jerk. Maybe if he didn't care about any of those things, he'll be the happiest dude ever.
So in what situation can you apply method 2 to maximize your happiness? Well, in situations where you just can't do what makes you happy. What if Moral Joe was moral (he knows he isn't supposed to cut people), but he doesn't like to wait in line either. His uphold of his principles is probably stronger than his want for happiness (getting on the ride without waiting), so he will wait in line an angry man. Perfect time to apply method 2.
"Moral Joe, you're not gonna cut everyone, because that will make you feel guilty, it will piss off everyone else, and it will lower your reputation as a good man. You have no choice but to stand and wait in line. So if you have absolutely no choice, why would you lower your enjoyment of life when it is totally in your power to change this and be happy?"
One day I was late to work, driving as fast as I could. There was only one lane, and there is a dude in front of me casually going to speed limit. I was about to re-enact the Rage dude, but I thought about the situation using my past experiences. I could do two things in this situation: method 1 or method 2. I can't do method 1. I can't get to work on time stuck behind slow drivers. There's no solution. So, I use method 2. Why the hell am I getting angry at this. Sure, it is perfectly reasonable to be angry in this situation, any person would be. But being angry is taking away my enjoyment of life. I love life, and it it short, so I am going to try and make the best of every moment. And being angry won't make the dude in front of me go any faster. So I realized this, sat back, and turned up the music, and remember to set my alarm earlier 
This brings us to another point in my view of life - anger, or negative emotion in general. In the previous paragraph, I said that negative emotion is pretty much useless. Sadness and anger only detract from the greatness of living, so what it the point of it? Why do humans have these negative emotions? They should have some sort of use, from an evolutionary and biological point of view: all the humans have negative emotions, which probably means that the humans that survive and reproduce are the ones who have negative emotions, which probably means that the negative emotions are something that help humans survive. I've thought about this for a long, long time, and I've come to conclude that negative emotions' only purpose is to prevent bad shit from happening to you.
Cut your hand while chopping up an onion? Cutting your hand lowers your survival rate (and your happiness!), so you feel pain (and maybe anger). Feel pain? Don't like it? Good, don't cut yourself again. That's how it works. Anything that detracts from your happiness (a negative emotion) should be avoided. Bad situations should be avoided. That's why you get angry or sad. Because you don't like being angry or sad, so you will do what you can to avoid the situation.
More examples. Get bad grades and get yelled at by your parents? Feel guilty and angry. Don't wanna feel guilty and angry. Study your ass off and get good grades to make your parents proud. Happiness goes through the roof.
Someone stealing from your credit card? Get angry. Go to your card company and report the transactions and get your money back.
Late to work because of slow drivers? Feel negative emotion. Don't like negative emotion. Go to work earlier. Problem solved.
Negative emotion works because of its definition - you don't like it. So you feel negative emotion during any situation that detracts from your happiness. You don't like these feelings of anger, sadness, whatever, do you try not to get into the situation again.
Wait wait wait, wait just a damn moment. I just said above that getting angry was useless, now I'm arguing that it's useful, what the F?? There is a difference. I explained how negative emotion works. And it does work. It works to increase your survival rate so you can reproduce. It increases your lifespan. If nothing ever made me angry, then I'll be ok with people stealing my money. I'd be ok with a guy stabbing me. And I'll die sooner than I should have.
Ok, negative emotion is necessary for survival. But there is a better way to survive. A way to survive and to enjoy life at the same time. Remember when I was late to work back up a few paragraphs? Being angry would have helped me keep my job. Being angry when I'm late keeps me from being late in the future. Constant lateness = fired. But I didn't get angry. Instead, I realized what my anger was supposed to solve, and resolved to do that without getting angry. My logic did what the anger was supposed to do - inform me that being late is bad, that getting to work on time is good. The same can be applied with other other examples. Get bad grades and get yelled at by your parents? You don't have to feel guilty and angry. Think logically. The guilt and the anger motivated\s you to do well and earn your parents' praise. But logic can do the same. Don't feel angry or guilty, just understand that your parents want the best for you and that all you gotta do to be happy and to make them happy is to study more to get good grades. Anger and guilt bypassed, good grades gotten, everyone's happy.
I didn't cover everything I wanted, but with these thoughts, I can now examine my view of death. I use method 2 and logic to see approach death. This is why, logically, I should not fear death. It is inevitable, there is nothing I can do, therefore, I should be happy to have lived an enjoyable life and accept it when the time comes. I should be happy, when the time does come. But as you've realized, method 2 is flawed because it's actually pretty hard to put into practice, for us emotional/illogical humans. It took me a looooooooooong time to be able to not get angry at slow drivers and other daily annoyances. Principles are deeply ingrained in us, and thus hard to change. Death? People have always feared death. Death is scary because it's the unknown, and because of what is generally associated with death. It takes a strong mind to be able to accept death as something that you should be happy to receive when it does come. And because of that, I'm still a bit afraid. I shouldn't be. But I used to be much more afraid. I've made a lot of progress, and I'm happy. And I know that when the time does come, I'll be prepared for it.
 
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You definitely aren't prepared for it because you have no idea what it is like. Though I do believe we can get to that state of acceptance.
What does athiesm have to do with any of this?
How hardcore are you really?
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How does one become a hardcore atheist as opposed to a not-hardcore atheist o_o
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On July 25 2010 13:11 shurgen wrote:
How does one become a hardcore atheist as opposed to a not-hardcore atheist o_o
i want to be hardcore.... *sniff*
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I swear I'm not trying to troll you or anything, but I honestly think that this whole essay could be condensed to 'be happy'. Maybe I'm missing something.
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On July 25 2010 13:15 Redmark wrote:
I swear I'm not trying to troll you or anything, but I honestly think that this whole essay could be condensed to 'be happy'. Maybe I'm missing something.
you did. what i read was: "smoke crack."
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On July 25 2010 13:10 ella_guru wrote:
You definitely aren't prepared for it because you have no idea what it is like. Though I do believe we can get to that state of acceptance.
What does athiesm have to do with any of this?
How hardcore are you really?
Seems like the hardcore Christians I've talked to all accept death a lot more easily than people who don't believe in an afterlife.... well because they have an awesome afterlife to look forward to.
I'm hardcore.
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I enjoyed this post.
Good to see someone else actually try and figure out how to get the most out of life, even taking a look at the evolutionary side of things.
I can't believe I live in a country where people believe evolution is controversial. Ugh.
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On July 25 2010 13:15 Redmark wrote:
I swear I'm not trying to troll you or anything, but I honestly think that this whole essay could be condensed to 'be happy'. Maybe I'm missing something.
Well yeah, but I guess I wanted to elaborate on the mental processes and trains of thought that I've had over a year's time before I came to this stage in my thinking.
Also, some people can't just 'be happy', they gotta know the workings of the human mind in order to change their outlook. For me, putting all these thoughts into a logical and organized presentation helped me solidify this outlook on life.
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I think I approach an inevitable death this way. Falling from 1000 feet with no parachute? Meh, nothing I can do there. Expert marksman has me in the sights of his sniper rifle, in an open field with no cover in sight? Pfft, I'm screwed no matter what. Whatever.
But I think I would freak out more about death that I could possibly avoid. If I'm falling from 30 feet instead of 1000, I'd sure as hell try to do something about it. Land on my two feet, roll to reduce the impact, hopefully I only break some bones. If a guy is aiming a handgun at me from a foot away, I'm not just going to accept it, because there's stuff I can do (punch him in the face! Go Mantoss all over his ass!!!!)
I'd have to say I agree with you on just about everything, though. Life's easier when you let logic influence your emotions.
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I like the way you think. You explained emotions in a radical way (ironic?)
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when you cut yourself, your body releases endorphins to make you feel less pain. This causes you to feel "good' afterwards. This is why emos like to cut themselves.
i only read the part about the onion so only commenting on that
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i don't agree on your point of view that negative emotions sole existence is for survival. although it is a part of why they exist i see it more fitting in your article to argue that negative emotions as the only reason we get things done, they're what motivates us. If negative emotions didn't exist we would feel no joy in accomplishing a task, as we wouldn't feel anything if we didn't accomplish it. negative emotions guides our path and tells us what we should stay away from, and what we need to strive for.
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On July 25 2010 13:44 Malgrif wrote:
i don't agree on your point of view that negative emotions sole existence is for survival. although it is a part of why they exist i see it more fitting in your article to argue that negative emotions as the only reason we get things done, they're what motivates us. If negative emotions didn't exist we would feel no joy in accomplishing a task, as we wouldn't feel anything if we didn't accomplish it. negative emotions guides our path and tells us what we should stay away from, and what we need to strive for.
Hmm that was something I was trying to say in my blog. Survival, in the definition within the OP, was pretty much the same thing as "getting shit done while telling us what to stay away from", which is what you're saying.
Meaning we probably agree with each other but I wasn't clear enough in my blog.
Although I don't agree that negative emotions need to exist.
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On July 25 2010 13:18 ieatkids5 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2010 13:10 ella_guru wrote:
You definitely aren't prepared for it because you have no idea what it is like. Though I do believe we can get to that state of acceptance.
What does athiesm have to do with any of this?
How hardcore are you really?
Seems like the hardcore Christians I've talked to all accept death a lot more easily than people who don't believe in an afterlife.... well because they have an awesome afterlife to look forward to. I'm hardcore.
Hardcore Christians don't accept death. They pretend there's no such thing.
And I'm Ignostic, so I'm the hardest core atheist. 
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Am I like the only Atheist who doesn't share a utilitarian mindset -_-?
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This blog is basically how I have been living my life since 9th grade. I approach everything logically and only get motions involved when I wanted to sort of convey a point or just let go. For example when my dog died I felt sad and cried. No the tears weren't going to bring her back to life or anything, but sometimes it's good to just let go rather than covering everything up with logic.
Also, I think it's wrong to say you don't fear death. It may be naive of me to say that, but I'm pretty sure if someone put a gun to your head, you would try to do something about it. In my opinion it's a different thing to have accepted death. Like for me, I've accepted death; I'm fully aware that some day I'm going to die, but I'm going to do everything in my power to prolong that date until the day I can no longer live on my own but need assisted living (eg too weak to even walk on my own or feed myself.)
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On July 25 2010 13:52 ieatkids5 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2010 13:44 Malgrif wrote:
i don't agree on your point of view that negative emotions sole existence is for survival. although it is a part of why they exist i see it more fitting in your article to argue that negative emotions as the only reason we get things done, they're what motivates us. If negative emotions didn't exist we would feel no joy in accomplishing a task, as we wouldn't feel anything if we didn't accomplish it. negative emotions guides our path and tells us what we should stay away from, and what we need to strive for. Hmm that was something I was trying to say in my blog. Survival, in the definition within the OP, was pretty much the same thing as "getting shit done while telling us what to stay away from", which is what you're saying. Meaning we probably agree with each other but I wasn't clear enough in my blog. Although I don't agree that negative emotions need to exist. of course they do, or else people would be doing what ever the hell they wanted to. society as we know it would crumble into nothingness. go to jail for 5 years? NO PROBLEM WHO CARES HAHAHAHA. honestly a person who doesn't feel negative emotions i'd consider a psychopath. it'd be absolute chaos
On July 25 2010 14:18 Najda wrote:
This blog is basically how I have been living my life since 9th grade. I approach everything logically and only get motions involved when I wanted to sort of convey a point or just let go. For example when my dog died I felt sad and cried. No the tears weren't going to bring her back to life or anything, but sometimes it's good to just let go rather than covering everything up with logic. =( don't worry your dog is in a better place now, doggie heaven, i heard they can have everything they ever wanted don't feel sad everything will be ok
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On July 25 2010 13:57 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2010 13:18 ieatkids5 wrote:On July 25 2010 13:10 ella_guru wrote:
You definitely aren't prepared for it because you have no idea what it is like. Though I do believe we can get to that state of acceptance.
What does athiesm have to do with any of this?
How hardcore are you really?
Seems like the hardcore Christians I've talked to all accept death a lot more easily than people who don't believe in an afterlife.... well because they have an awesome afterlife to look forward to. I'm hardcore. Hardcore Christians don't accept death. They pretend there's no such thing. And I'm Ignostic, so I'm the hardest core atheist.
Haha. I guess. They're still happy in the end though, so I guess good for them. But I can be happy too without deluding myself.
Oh, and I had to look up Ignosticism on wikipedia, and I'm glad I did lol. It's logical, but I feel like establishing the definition of 'god' should be something that atheists should already have defined, in its many terms. But I Ignosticism clears that up, so yeah.
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i hope u dont do what your name implies
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On July 25 2010 14:18 Najda wrote:
Also, I think it's wrong to say you don't fear death. It may be naive of me to say that, but I'm pretty sure if someone put a gun to your head, you would try to do something about it. In my opinion it's a different thing to have accepted death. Like for me, I've accepted death; I'm fully aware that some day I'm going to die, but I'm going to do everything in my power to prolong that date until the day I can no longer live on my own but need assisted living (eg too weak to even walk on my own or feed myself.)
I think when people say they fear death, they just mean that they don't want to lose everything they've worked for in their life. it's being clingy now that i think of it, more of an irresistible love for life that we find impossibly hard to let go of
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well one side or the other will find themselves wrong when we cross the veil of death.
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On July 25 2010 14:24 Malgrif wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2010 13:52 ieatkids5 wrote:On July 25 2010 13:44 Malgrif wrote:
i don't agree on your point of view that negative emotions sole existence is for survival. although it is a part of why they exist i see it more fitting in your article to argue that negative emotions as the only reason we get things done, they're what motivates us. If negative emotions didn't exist we would feel no joy in accomplishing a task, as we wouldn't feel anything if we didn't accomplish it. negative emotions guides our path and tells us what we should stay away from, and what we need to strive for. Hmm that was something I was trying to say in my blog. Survival, in the definition within the OP, was pretty much the same thing as "getting shit done while telling us what to stay away from", which is what you're saying. Meaning we probably agree with each other but I wasn't clear enough in my blog. Although I don't agree that negative emotions need to exist. of course they do, or else people would be doing what ever the hell they wanted to. society as we know it would crumble into nothingness. go to jail for 5 years? NO PROBLEM WHO CARES HAHAHAHA. honestly a person who doesn't feel negative emotions i'd consider a psychopath. it'd be absolute chaos
K sorry, I meant theoretically, negative emotions don't need to exist. As explained by its replacement by logic.
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On July 25 2010 14:18 Najda wrote:
This blog is basically how I have been living my life since 9th grade. I approach everything logically and only get motions involved when I wanted to sort of convey a point or just let go. For example when my dog died I felt sad and cried. No the tears weren't going to bring her back to life or anything, but sometimes it's good to just let go rather than covering everything up with logic.
Also, I think it's wrong to say you don't fear death. It may be naive of me to say that, but I'm pretty sure if someone put a gun to your head, you would try to do something about it. In my opinion it's a different thing to have accepted death. Like for me, I've accepted death; I'm fully aware that some day I'm going to die, but I'm going to do everything in my power to prolong that date until the day I can no longer live on my own but need assisted living (eg too weak to even walk on my own or feed myself.)
Good for you
I agree that stuff like close family members or close pets passing away is something that really can't be dealt with without sadness. They die, you feel sad, grieve for a little bit, and then move on while keeping with you your happy memories of them.
For the not fearing death stuff, I meant if it is truly inevitable. Like old age. If someone's trying to kill me, I'm not gonna accept it, I'm gonna do what I can to prevent it because it's preventable (or worth trying). I'm basically approaching this via the method 1/2 stuff I talked about in the OP.
Premise: I don't want to die because living is enjoyable.
Method 1: Do what you can to prolong life.
Then, once inevitable death comes, method 2: accept death.
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What does being atheist or not have to do with fearing death? I would think atheists would value life more since they don't believe in afterlife. Other than that i like ur post. Sorry if i misunderstood anything.
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i think of death as an eternal "deep sleep"
no consciousness. so i dont worry..
but... a good read.
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On July 25 2010 14:14 Half wrote:
Am I like the only Atheist who doesn't share a utilitarian mindset -_-?
What's your mindset? Just curious
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Haha. I guess. They're still happy in the end though, so I guess good for them. But I can be happy too without deluding myself.
But if deluding yourself makes you happy, shouldn't you do it?
That's what method 2 in your OP sounded like to me.
What do you mean to "accept death"?
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On July 26 2010 02:49 gyth wrote:Show nested quote +Haha. I guess. They're still happy in the end though, so I guess good for them. But I can be happy too without deluding myself. But if deluding yourself makes you happy, shouldn't you do it? That's what method 2 in your OP sounded like to me. What do you mean to "accept death"?
Method 2 is impossible to apply like that. Sorta like you can't apply method 2 to being hungry. My belief in science is too strong and ingrained within me that I can't change it.
However, method 2 does work in my case by still disbelieving any afterlife, but being happy about my life when the end comes. By modifying my perspective on death and seeing it as a necessary end, and being happy to have lived a good life, then I can be just as happy as any deluded person. And I think by saying that, I've also answered your second question
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I am not afraid of death because of the pain or the unknown, I am afraid of dieing without making any impact, probably if I did something meaningful (in my own eyes) I wouldn't feel as bad about it. Is that why many older people are calm when they face death? Because they've done most of the things they felt were important, like raising children, taking care of their loved ones and working hard to better their existence?
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Damn it feels good to be a gangsta.
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On July 26 2010 10:45 News wrote:
I am not afraid of death because of the pain or the unknown, I am afraid of dieing without making any impact, probably if I did something meaningful (in my own eyes) I wouldn't feel as bad about it. Is that why many older people are calm when they face death? Because they've done most of the things they felt were important, like raising children, taking care of their loved ones and working hard to better their existence?
I think it might be more to do with the fact they really are running out of time and ability to change anything.
I think we are too inexperienced with life to have any idea what those approaching death by old age know.
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On July 26 2010 10:59 ella_guru wrote:
I think it might be more to do with the fact they really are running out of time and ability to change anything.
I think we are too inexperienced with life to have any idea what those approaching death by old age know.
Maybe you are right, I remember reading few interviews with people that lived over a 100, they were generally saying that they've done everything they wanted and were not afraid to die anymore, some of them were waiting for it. I'm sure only a few people would really want to die even at old age, still they are more content with dieing compared to most of us younglings.
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Method 2 is impossible to apply like that.
I think it'd be easier to apply method 2 by deluding yourself. (not better, easier)
I would say someone who doesn't care about bad grades (like failing out of high school bad) is delusional.
However, method 2 does work in my case by still disbelieving any afterlife, but being happy about my life when the end comes. By modifying my perspective on death and seeing it as a necessary end, and being happy to have lived a good life, then I can be just as happy as any deluded person.
You seem to be saying that you'd be happy to die, when that isn't what you're arguing.
Accepting the inevitability of death doesn't make it a happy thing.
It takes a strong mind to be able to accept death as something that you should be happy to receive when it does come.
It isn't an issue of fear, its an issue of non-being.
Non-being sucks and I don't want to do it.
Trying to convince yourself that it doesn't suck or that you do want to do it is delusional IMO.
But I think one can be at peace with death without being happy about it.
And I think that's what you're arguing, but not quite what you're saying.
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Haven't read any of the replies but I disagree with your final paragraph. I too am an atheist but I'm not going to say we shouldn't be afraid of death. What's wrong with being afraid of death? It can be compared to say walking a tight-rope over some sky-scrapers. Being an atheist doesn't change the fact that it would be a scary thing to do. Likewise from an objective basis we should be afraid of death, rather than seeing it as a fear we should be overcoming.
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On July 25 2010 14:38 waffling1 wrote:
well one side or the other will find themselves wrong when we cross the veil of death.
Hey, for all you know perhaps the Muslims have got it right and Christians will find themselves wrong when crossing the veil of death.
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Sorry for bumping this but the first time I read this I thought it was kinda stupid but today, I got a 33/100 on my physics electricity and optics test and for some reason I remembered something from this thread..... "Instead of being angry that I made a bad grade on my test, I should instead focus on doing better on the next test." By staying angry it would just increase my stress level and doesn't help me at all in preparation for the next exam.
So I guess I bumped this to say thanks lol. It helped me in real life.
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Personally I'm agnostic and I just don't believe in anything that has to do with how we got here, but I'm fucking terrified of death. If someone were to put a gun to my head and said "start dancing", you can bet your ass I'll make Michael Jackson look bad. Or at least ill try.
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EPT
