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Does the thought of new tilesets cause your toes to tingle? Me too.
Here's a map that I really like the progress of in terms of being a viable tourney map:
(2)Zenith Madrid
![[image loading]](http://www.jamesjenista.com/sc2melee/(2)ZenithMadrid.jpg)
download (2)ZenithMadrid.SC2Map
The core concept for this map is that there is a short rush distance between the mains, but easily defended. Once a defender has established a good defense for the short path, the dynamic of the map changes and players will probably make a more solid push around the longer path, or maybe even try to use both at the same time, like send a raid in the short while army marches the longer, wider alternate route.
You might recall that Paranoid Android is built around a similar concept. The short bridge creates a quicker path between mains, but would be ineffective for getting a larger army across the map. As the players develop an army the map's features cause shifts in strategy and/or tactics. Cool, right?
So let's do something like this, but designed for SC2.
![[image loading]](http://www.jamesjenista.com/sc2melee/zm-main.jpg)
One path to the main is short and very narrow, but units the enemy main can punish your attack if they are prepared for it. Then there is another, wider path around the far side of the main. Both paths intersect at the natural on the furthest side of the main.
Zenith Madrid is then similar to the infamous Desert Oasis or SC1 maps like Raid Assault where the mains aren't hanging off the edge of the playable area, they are moved inward so that units can walk a path all the way around.
Now, before you break a pool cue in half and scream "I hate the naturals on Desert O!" just hear me out. I don't like those naturals, either, and for that matter I don't like that siege tanks, colossus or whatever can get within like 3 grids of your main mineral line on the outside path. So I made sure to address these issues:
1. The two paths around to the main on desert oasis are more or less the same. It's like a "Chicken or beef for dinner?" question and your answer is "Whichever, they're both fine." And they are wide, mostly, so it is easy to waltz into the natural.
The core concept for Zenith Madrid, though, is to make the paths around the main very different. At some point in the early game you can wreck an attack coming at you by the short route, so you can effectively create one path into the natural. The natural itself is also more intimate with the main choke than Desert OMGasis.
2. Because of SC2's high ground mechanic we don't want players to, say, surround the other guy's main with seige tanks, get vision, and suddenly blow every tech building to bits. Quite a bit of the main's cliffs on Zenith Madrid could be sieged, but about half of that is along the short path, so if I'm ready for your tanks, they can't get away when you move it for that. You can still go the far, more open side and seige, but I made sure the mineral lines aren't right there.
There is still plenty of opportunity for harass on this map, but I feel in a more fair, manageable sense than DO.
Some other interesting notes for this map:
-The center isn't exactly a choke, but you could rally units there and try to use it as a pivot for keeping map control.
-There are several gold expos, a close one that's open to attack and an easier defended one that you gotta bust debris to get or distance mine it. I don't think there is too much gold, and by encouraging players to use gold expos which are on the extreme left and right, we are actually drawing attention away from the shortest main-to-main route that is very important in the early game. So maybe when both players are working the gold angle mid-to-late that rush path becomes relevant again?
Please hit me up with some constructive feedback, or just to toss around some general map design ideas. I am especially interested in critical comments like "Thing X on your map is not suitable for tournament play because Y." That is literally the most helpful thing someone could offer, because if you ask me right now I'd say Zenith Madrid could serve as a tourney map, after getting some love in the beauty department, of course.
Poll: (2) Zenith Madrid? Yeah, I'd love to...see it sucked into a black hole so I never have to look at it again. Barf. (12) 92% have this in ladder rotation so I can drop the hammer on inevitable 9 pools, constantly. (1) 8% see Effort and ZerO make their professional ZvZ debut on this map, ZM is tournament-quality. (0) 0% perfect my rush strategies on this map in practice games. (0) 0% 13 total votes Your vote: (2) Zenith Madrid? Yeah, I'd love to... (Vote): see Effort and ZerO make their professional ZvZ debut on this map, ZM is tournament-quality.
(Vote): perfect my rush strategies on this map in practice games.
(Vote): have this in ladder rotation so I can drop the hammer on inevitable 9 pools, constantly.
(Vote): see it sucked into a black hole so I never have to look at it again. Barf.
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Very neat idea. I like it a lot. Only thing I can see right away is that the middle is narrower on the top portion than the bottom portion.
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just read over your comments real fast, but by just looking a the map I can tell you it's never going to be a popular map within the good players. The distance is far to long between the mains. The expos is far to hard to protect and the middle is way too narrow. The good maps might be very boring at times, but think about why LT etc is so successful? It is because it got everything your map lack which is essential for a popular map.
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On May 08 2010 01:37 Kralic wrote:
Very neat idea. I like it a lot. Only thing I can see right away is that the middle is narrower on the top portion than the bottom portion.
Ooh, good catch, I'll fix that after work, thanks!
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Imagine blinkstalkers, collosi and air on this map...
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The rush distance is really short. I don't understand why there is a small path that basically goes directly from one ramp to the other. I also don't like how if you build defenses at the natural, the enemy can use said path to run straight to the main. It has the same feel as desert oasis. One more note, I think that it would be better to make the high yield that is near the mains into just normal expansions or at least put some destructible rocks there.
edit* I do like how the natural is on higher ground than the middle, I didn't see that before.
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Concept is nice, but work on the looks of the map. Looks are half as important as the actual map. Right now its a bit stale (second high-yield for the players comes to mind).
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United States7166 Posts
nearly the whole map is narrow chokes and paths man this is worse than Kulas Ravine 
need a lot more wide areas not just 1 on each side
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On May 08 2010 01:41 ZpuX wrote:
just read over your comments real fast, but by just looking a the map I can tell you it's never going to be a popular map within the good players.
Ok, great, let's get some tough critique.
The distance is far to long between the mains.
Really? I think that short path is actually pretty short comparatively and the longer route from main-to-main isn't bad either. I'll tell you what, I can't do it now but later today I'll run some experiments and post travel times compared to all of the possible LT spawns.
The expos is far to hard to protect
Which ones? All of them? The natural is much easier to protect than Desert Oasis and I'd argue only slightly harder than Metalopolis. It also cannot be cliffed like nats on LT.
Do you mean those normal-yield expos nearest to the center? Yeah, they are hanging out in the wind there. What do you think about punching a thin hole in the terrain there to provide a defensive wall?
and the middle is way too narrow.
Ok, suppose I fix the mistakenly tighter middle area just under the top spawn that is narrower than I meant (thanks to Kralic for pointing that out!). I could also remove the center doodad, but other than that the shortest route is supposed to wicked narrow. So there is this longer, but plenty wide path that "snakes" around the map with some narrow sections and some very wide sections. I think you could move out with a 150 food army comfortably. And nothing is stopping you from sending your big army through the tight side next to your own main--it's the tight side next to the enemy main that's tough to march a force through, right?
The good maps might be very boring at times, but think about why LT etc is so successful? It is because it got everything your map lack which is essential for a popular map.
I hear you that as a map designer we have to throttle back on all the crazy stuff we want to try if the goal is a lasting map. But TL's got everything my map lacks? If you can humor me and check back tomorrow maybe I can convince you it's not as bad as all this.
Oh yeah, and honestly, thanks! That was a detailed critique, and I appreciate it.
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On May 08 2010 01:49 Ghostcom wrote:
Imagine blinkstalkers, collosi and air on this map...
I did, man, I DID!
1. Blinkstalkers can use that little pad to get to the island expo, which can be used to put a siege tank down or maybe other clever moves. So what? You paid for blink, attack! He paid for blink, defend! Other than that, where on this map are blinkstalkers kickin' ass where they can't on other maps for the beta tourneys?
2. Collosi, reapers, wall-jumping in general are considered.
Look carefully at this close-up image again:
The main is 2 levels higher than the center. You have to advance halfway around to the backside of the main before there is one-level difference. The point here is that I should be able to, with vigilance, see your cliff-jumper before it is in my main and react accordingly. If you take the time to walk way around the far side, which is meant to be a wider path, yeah you can finally sneak up on a cliff that you can jump up just as I spot you, but that should be an option if you're willing to flank.
3. Air, these bases are further apart than the closest pair on LT, for example. What's the problem? They're probably equal to the distance on Scrap Station, but I can measure it for you.
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On May 08 2010 01:52 canucks12 wrote:
The rush distance is really short. I don't understand why there is a small path that basically goes directly from one ramp to the other.
I'm not trying to be rude here, amigo, but did you read my OP? That is basically the core concept of this map. The rush distance is short but not ludicrous short.
I also don't like how if you build defenses at the natural, the enemy can use said path to run straight to the main. It has the same feel as desert oasis.
I disagree, and again this is literally in my OP. The natural is pulled in towards the main compared to DO. Now, imagine where you place defenses for nat on Metalopolis, right? You probably place it near your main ramp but partially helping the natural. On Zenith Madrid you also can place, say bunkers or spine crawlers just at the bottom of the main ramp to defend that short path, but also aid you in a battle at the natural. But, also like Metalopolis, if you are only willing to fight right next to your bunker then the enemy can always move to the far side of the natural (on this map that's a long walk) to harass.
One more note, I think that it would be better to make the high yield that is near the mains into just normal expansions or at least put some destructible rocks there.
Why? It's quite open on purpose, and as you pointed out there is this dynamic at the natural and main we're thinking about. If you can get an expo going there and your opponent doesn't scout it (because maybe they focus everything on that short side) then you deserve it!
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On May 08 2010 01:54 KinosJourney2 wrote:
Concept is nice, but work on the looks of the map. Looks are half as important as the actual map. Right now its a bit stale (second high-yield for the players comes to mind).
True, it needs beautification. I'll put in the work if I get a consensus people want to play this map!
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On May 08 2010 01:59 Zelniq wrote:nearly the whole map is narrow chokes and paths man this is worse than Kulas Ravine need a lot more wide areas not just 1 on each side
Wow, worse than Kulas?! Please let me present an argument against! On Kulas if I order my army from one main to another I literally walk by four or five cliffs. On this map, if you examine the long route to the main, there are NO cliffs except the ramp you walk up, which I can follow a unit up easily. Check it:
![[image loading]](http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8944/2zenithmadridpath.jpg)
There is that unpathable terrain between the center and the main so your enemy doesn't see you taking the wide, safe walk. And you don't even have to do this whole walk to attack--take the narrow shortcut on your own side and use the enemy's wide side to work in safely.
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I like how you made the islands cliffable, but the main difficulty I can envision on this map is splitting it in two. Imagine if its a TvT and each player lines their tanks on either side of the really narrow center, then precede to take all their respective bases and macro up.
The thing about most great maps with dynamic play is that there are expos to fight over, they are disputed and not "ok this base is on my half of the map so I'll take it and cap near the middle to defend it".
You mention Paranoid Android [LOVE that map] and I think its great to base any sort of map design off that one, just that in the bottom left corner of PA there is an expo that belongs to no one, it is disputed. What tends to happen [as far as I can remember its been a while] is whoever secures that expo can out-macro their opponent and win.
Therefore I suggest you remove the potentially stale dynamic of splitting the map by doing two things:
1: Making the central choke (its so small I'll call it that) bigger by moving the mains away from each other (ofc keep it symmetrical). This would facilitate more aggressive (e.g. venturing to the opponent's half) play because it would make it less of a major commitment to step beyond no-man's-land. Also test if sensor towers can reach from main to main, if they can I don't think thats too cool.
2: [The big one] Re-work the island dynamic. I really like the islands, it's cute how you can blink stalkers to them (well at least I think you can), but they appear to be extensions of the splitting-the-map dynamic (well I've never played/tested the map so I don't actually know). I suggest that you make that tiny blip of a lee-way island into a decently wide bridge.
Also, make it more viable to drop the island by either making it slightly closer to the other main or by even adding one of those blip islands.
My rationale behind this proposed change is that if it is easier to take an alternate route to your opponent's expos/natural/main it will be more exciting, harder and more stimulating to play, as a counter-attack is more viable. You have a big wide expanse between the 3 land expos (North-East of bottom's main) and this would actually be more used if one could drop one's army on the island and walk down.
If I had a Beta Key, I would have Galaxy Editor and I would actually DO the changes I've suggested, but as it is hope it helps. In any case I like it, keep it up!
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The small pathway to the left and right respectively of the main is way way way wayyyy too narrow. (Unless this was intentional)
Other than that, the concept is well planed-out.
P.S. The little pads on the island expo's can be really abused by terran players to just lift off and just freely farm in the island expo.
Also I was wondering if you can get a collosi to walk onto the little pads?
I hope your map get's recognized somewhere 
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First off, thanks bITt.mAN for great response full of comments!
On May 08 2010 02:33 bITt.mAN wrote:
the main difficulty I can envision on this map is splitting it in two. Imagine if its a TvT and each player lines their tanks on either side of the really narrow center, then precede to take all their respective bases and macro up.
The thing about most great maps with dynamic play is that there are expos to fight over, they are disputed and not "ok this base is on my half of the map so I'll take it and cap near the middle to defend it".
I see what you mean, but if we both sieged up and I flew a few banshees around to harass your expansions and threatening your tanks, do you think I could have a chance of breaking your half of the center control? What I mean is that by sieging the center you could control ground movement to your half of the map, that is true, but is it so easy to sit back on that and macro from whichever bases you please?
That said, I'm hearing you and others and I will see what I can do to really open up the center significantly, and still keep the map true to my original concept.
You mention Paranoid Android [LOVE that map] and I think its great to base any sort of map design off that one, just that in the bottom left corner of PA there is an expo that belongs to no one, it is disputed. What tends to happen [as far as I can remember its been a while] is whoever secures that expo can out-macro their opponent and win.
Therefore I suggest you remove the potentially stale dynamic of splitting the map by doing two things:
1: Making the central choke (its so small I'll call it that) bigger by moving the mains away from each other (ofc keep it symmetrical). This would facilitate more aggressive (e.g. venturing to the opponent's half) play because it would make it less of a major commitment to step beyond no-man's-land. Also test if sensor towers can reach from main to main, if they can I don't think thats too cool.
Roger that, will experiment with opening the center and will test with sensor towers.
2: [The big one] Re-work the island dynamic. I really like the islands, it's cute how you can blink stalkers to them (well at least I think you can), but they appear to be extensions of the splitting-the-map dynamic (well I've never played/tested the map so I don't actually know).
If I open the center and the "pads" aren't in anyone's half, do you think the islands then become just fine?
I suggest that you make that tiny blip of a lee-way island into a decently wide bridge.
I interpret that two different ways. 1) Actually turn the pad into a bridge which makes the island into a penninsula or probably you mean 2) widen the pad so it is still a tiny island of its own between the expansions, but wider for more units.
If you mean 2) then I'll respond that I meant for it to be very small. If you want to siege the island expo there is a cliff for that, and the pad is sort of a non-essential opportunity for clever players to use. I'd rather it not be very lage and, for instance, allow you to "cliff" two expos with one group of 8 tanks.
Also, make it more viable to drop the island by either making it slightly closer to the other main or by even adding one of those blip islands.
My rationale behind this proposed change is that if it is easier to take an alternate route to your opponent's expos/natural/main it will be more exciting, harder and more stimulating to play, as a counter-attack is more viable. You have a big wide expanse between the 3 land expos (North-East of bottom's main) and this would actually be more used if one could drop one's army on the island and walk down.
Did you make a mistake there and mean if I did a big drop to the corner-most gold expo (rather than the island) then I could move my army out towards the enemy main from a direction he is not expecting? In which case, the fly distance is a little far, but would making it a little closer really change the viability of that strategy? I'm a little confused here, but I'll agree that somehow out of all this we want counter-attacks to be more viable! BAM!
If I had a Beta Key, I would have Galaxy Editor and I would actually DO the changes I've suggested, but as it is hope it helps. In any case I like it, keep it up!
Since you are the first to ask, good sir, when I get my first friend invite its yours. I've been in beta a few weeks now and no invite yet, though. ?
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On May 08 2010 02:41 zZygote wrote:
The small pathway to the left and right respectively of the main is way way way wayyyy too narrow. (Unless this was intentional)
Yes, intentional. I want you to be able to attempt a rush early, but unlike Desert Oasis for instance, I want you to be able to completely shut down that short pathway if you devote some effort to it. Then the map flow changes as big armies move out to the sides of the map to get a wider attack vector on the main. But then, after you think you shut down the short path, maybe I can try to sneak a DT or try a baneling bust late-game after you are no longer vigilant. Or something. :oP
Other than that, the concept is well planed-out.
Thanks!
P.S. The little pads on the island expo's can be really abused by terran players to just lift off and just freely farm in the island expo.
How is this different from Terrans using an island expo on any map?
Also I was wondering if you can get a collosi to walk onto the little pads?
No, they are not connected by a cliff, so the mighty colossus cannot walk to it.
I hope your map get's recognized somewhere
When the publish patch hits you could help it get recognized by asking someone to play with you on it! ;o)
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img25.imageshack.us/i/2zenithmadridpath.jpg/)
