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Poll: Has Z v P lost its excitement?
(Vote): Yes. BW Z v P was much better.
(Vote): No. SC2 Z v P is much better.
(Vote): No. SC2 and BW can't be compared.
The Z v P matchup can be one of the most exhilarating matchups to watch, be it in BW or in SC2.
It is also one of the most fun and complex to play.
As a Zerg in BW, it's always crucial to figure out if your opponent is going FE or 2 Gate. Based on either one of these strategies, you could figure out the opponents opening. Then you would scout later to find out if it was Corsair-Reaver or Corsair-DT. It was relatively "simple".
Now BW is slowly becoming a thing of the past with more and more people being engulfed by Starcraft 2. Not only are people getting absorbed in watching games and the new units but they are also slowly learning the new tactics and strategies of the 3 races and the 6 matchups. Z v P was a classic matchup in BW and will continue to be an awesome matchup in SC2 as well both to watch and to play.
However, Z v P has changed. There are no longer 2 standard openings; there are 4 (from what I've seen). There's:
-1 Gate
-2 Gate
-3 Gate
-Fast Expand
All of these are now viable strategies for the Protoss to take against the Zerg. Now the decision is up to the Protoss on which path it decides to take. The challenge comes to the Zerg: based on each of the openings, how should I react in order to secure some sort of advantage?
The 1 Gate is somewhat aggressive and can be (somewhat) easily beaten a 10 Pool and semi-mass lings.
The 2 Gate is aggressive and must be dealt with very carefully.
The 3 Gate is a bit overly aggressive in my opinion and can be used for a very aggressive early game timing attack or be used later on, such as a 3 Gate Robo build.
The FE is a typical FE.
The Zerg now has so many options on what to do and how to do so. It can go Roach/Ling or Bane/Ling initially and transition into Mutas or Hydras.
Z v P is so much more complex. More units. More abilities. More tech. More chaos. However, not everyone likes that chaos. I was talking to someone on a livestream chat and he was very displeased with the Z v P matchup in SC2. He says that the matchup that once made him speechless and awestruck now makes him confused and displeased. I naturally asked him why and he said that it's just become too chaotic. He feels as though Zergs are no longer employing as much strategy as they used to in BW. Protosses just mass up Stalkers and some Immortals and a bit of other units while Zergs just make mass Roaches and some Hydras and try to win.
I can see where he's coming from. It seems to me that many Zergs in Starcraft 2 have lost their sense of strategy. No one looks to, as Day[9] as beautifully said, "enter the game with a particular strategy and change it only slightly to deal with the opponents strategy".
Why is this? Why do players no longer feel the need to do things as methodically and as structurally as they did in BW? Has the matchup lost some of its flavor and spark?
I feel the reason for this is because of the many "all-in" builds SC2 has. They are "all-in" (notice the quotes) because the players make them so. It seems to me after watching many, many livestreams that Protoss players and Zerg players are all just trying to overwhelm the other with sheer number than with tech-tree advantages. Zergs don't defer from their mass Roaches even when they are facing a Stalker and Immortal heavy army. Protosses continue to get more Immortals and Stalkers even when the Zerg is pumping Zerglings.
Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not taking away from the knowledge or skill of these players. They are all very prominent players who livestream for the benefit of those of us who don't have Beta Keys. It's not their fault.
However, I must point out that it is the games fault. The game has evolved and has been designed to such a point that many "all-in" builds are becoming common strategy. There are no longer standard build matches.
And with this I come to my closing point. Blizzard has done an amazing job with Starcraft 2. It did what no one thought it could and made a "upgraded" version of Starcraft. New units. New maps. New unit vs unit hierarchies. All this is great and I love it. However, they have indirectly made it so that the players are enticed to go "all-in". They made it so that we see more and more deviation from standard play.
I asked these questions earlier in the blog:
Why is this? Why do players no longer feel the need to do things as methodically and as structurally as they did in BW? Has the matchup lost some of its flavor and spark?
Because Blizzard designed the game to be this way.
P.S. Mondragon agrees with me!  He said something similar in his interview.
DISCLAIMER: These are just my opinions. I understand that many of you will disagree. However, I would like to thank you for taking the time to read this, regardless of whether or not you agree with me.
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I feel like SC:BW is still a much more dynamic and fun game to watch/play. SC2 only has shiny graphics over it right now.
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It's only in the beta yet. check out the old osl finals. "good" players were terrible back then. and todays sc2 players are also terrible. in 1month or so we will be laughing at them how bad they were ( strategically speaking , mechanically they are top notch of course )
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Norway28492 Posts
your observations are correct. it is because defense has been hurt too much compared to bw. i'll write more about this soon. 
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every mu was more exciting in bw.
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I feel like spine crawlers suck in comparison to sunkens in SC1, despite doing more dmg. Probably because a maurauder has like 120 friggin' hp.
I dislike the maps currently out, they are all like the SC1 maps in the sense that there is a lot of chokes and paths but not open areas to flank and the expansion points suck balls (imo).
They need to overall nerf the "extremes" in the game I think. I dislike the super early bio unit from Terran having 120 hp, an immortal dealing a base 20 dmg but a BONUS 30 dmg to make 50 total (WTF) while at the same time only receiving max 10 dmg from shields (dumb concept imo, I hate it, I'd rather it be something like "receives 50% dmg" or something), and roaches also being an early game unit costing only 75 minerals 25 gas with a ton of hp AND TWO ARMOR?!
The extreme concepts are what's pissing me off... I hate the entire "ridiculously hard counter" concept.
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It's what? A month into the BETA? Of course there aren't going to be any "standard" builds. If you expected there to be, well then that's your fault. BW had to evolve for years to get to the point where a protoss FE was standard and it's only really been recently that protoss have tried to delay the natural expansion with a probe/pylon so it now became standard to overpool on 2 player maps. BW ZvP is evolving even now. Standard is changing even now
How do you expect there to be a standard in SC 2?
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I agree with your main point (games are mostly about outmassing, which is, as others have said, because the defender's advantage is much smaller in SC2 compared to BW), but you're complaining that the builds in a month-old beta game are more all-in and not as sophisticated as those in a 10-year old game. Give the game some time to grow as a strategy game, everyone thought zergling rushes were unbeatable back in 1999.
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To be fair, with the spawning pool only costing 150 minerals and multiple entry mains, they pretty much were. It took a few patches and quite a bit of map balancing before builds could become 'standard.'
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Wheres " i still dont have a key " option?
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It's all about the (flawed)high ground mechanic and lack of defenders advantage.
Really, it is. This goes for all matchups ofcourse.
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Orome: This is true. I should and shall give the game time. I'm just giving my thoughts on it in its current stage.
Tianx: I agree. They're still working on stuff so of course the game isn't completely finished and fine-tuned yet. I'm just hoping that it will get there sooner.
sYz-Adrenaline: lol my bad.
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BW is just a better game. That being said..you cant compare them either way luuuuul.
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On March 27 2010 09:35 rockon1215 wrote:
It's what? A month into the BETA? Of course there aren't going to be any "standard" builds. If you expected there to be, well then that's your fault. BW had to evolve for years to get to the point where a protoss FE was standard and it's only really been recently that protoss have tried to delay the natural expansion with a probe/pylon so it now became standard to overpool on 2 player maps. BW ZvP is evolving even now. Standard is changing even now
How do you expect there to be a standard in SC 2?
SC2 won't even take a fifth as long to develop completely optimal builds like in SC1 simply because of the extreme competitiveness that is now that wasn't then. People back then played casually, and never planned builds out really, and even when competitive starcraft took off however many years after the initial release, players were not part of professional builds and weren't paid salaries, etc. I'd expect most of SC2 to be "figured out" within the first one or two years, with occasional shit emerging of course.
And WHAT are you talking about people have used probes to delay the natural expansion since the VERY BEGINNING of starcraft gaming. And that is NOT the reason people go overpool either. It's because it allows the opponent to go 14 nex putting him ahead. Overpool forces two cannons.
And you're wrong again, there are relatively standard builds out right now.
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Anyone who starts their post with 'its just beta' or some variation of it probably has nothing worthwhile to say, so I go ahead and ignore their posts anyway. Nice OP, I think the 'allin' nature of most games now is due to the extremely high mobility of all races, the stupidly hard counters, and the fact that retreating is almost never an option, so you cant engage an enemy unless you are SURE you'll win the fight
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I feel it is too early for this kind of comparison. Seems like nobody really knows definitely how to play either side of the matchup well enough , that it's just hard counter/timing push short games.
Also, This matchup seems to be one of the more imbalanced ones in sc2 currently. So we will see a lot more changes. You can quote me on that.
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TheAntZ: Thanks. I appreciate you reading my piece.
CharlieMurphy: The matchup does seem to be one of the more if not the most imbalanced one in SC2. I will quote you on the fact that we'll be seeing a lot more changes. It's very logical and, truthfully, expected. But as I said, I understand that many people will find my opinion too early to make but I'm just putting it out there.
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Even though it's still early, it's good that you wrote about it and people are still aware of it. Things like this need to be said if the game is to evolve like everyone expects.
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United States10774 Posts
yep.
yeah it is too early to make these kinds of judgments but every matchup was more exciting in BW. like drone said, defense was hurt too much and that was a HUGE part of BW that gave it a lot of variety and excitement.
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EPT
