So, I've finally calmed down after raging hard at the result. I'll admit it, I'm a Flash fan, and I hated seeing him lose. However, I was fully prepared to see Flash lose to Jaedong. I knew Jaedong had a lot more time to prepare for that game and that it would hugely affect the series.
From the very beginning, I was disgusted with the entire event. The virtual studio was the cheesiest and most absurd thing I have ever witnessed. This is going back to the days when progamers played on-stage in "Space Armor" and all of that ridiculous shit that was cut out of progaming to make it at least somewhat professional.
Game One, Flash absolutely deserved to lose. Flash predicted this build from Jaedong and still lost utterly to it, there is no excuse for that. Jaedong has brilliant mutalisk micro, as always.
Game Two, well-done by Flash. Although the money thrown away on Guardians was very important, I feel that Jaedong's decision to utterly surrender map control and his consistently small army really lost him this game. Hiding behind 20 sunkens to get your tech/upgrades up might work sometimes, but not against a player of Flash's caliber. Flash dismantled Jaedong with dropships and controlled that game from the mid-game to the end.
Game Three, very well-played by both players. And then it happened. The blackout. Yes it was at a time when Flash was losing and probably would have lost that game 9 times out of 10.
Personally, I feel it should have been a regame. However, that's not what has upset me the most.
KT's coach arguing with KESPA refs, threatening to forfeit the game, vowing to never participate in another mbc event, Flash's dad being escorted out by security, and the length of the whole absurd ordeal couldn't possibly have not affected Flash's mental state.
No human being is going to play the next game of StarCraft 100% when that happens. When your entire world crumbles around you in an instant and you're behind 1-2 in a StarLeague finals, no way is any human being going to bring 100% to the next game.
And he didn't.
Jaedong didn't beat Flash in Game 4, he beat the husk of a 17 year old boy who just lost his entire supportive network and was subject to a full hour of embarrassing and ridiculous decision making by both those on his side and the KESPA refs themselves.
JD outplayed Flash in the first game. Flash outplayed JD in the second game. I feel both played equally well in the third game, but JD would have taken it. JD outplayed a mentally crippled Flash in fourth game.
The difference from a normal series here is that it wasn't Jaedong who mentally crippled him. After all the bullshit that went down, how can anyone say that Jaedong is 100% the better player, the bonjwa, and the greatest progamer to walk the earth after he raped a Flash who had already been raped by the entirety of E-Sports corporate dickery?
If Jaedong won Game Three normally and there was no blackout, the result might have been 3-1 for Jaedong, but does anyone seriously think that Game Four would have been the same? Does anyone really think Flash still would have just suddenly played at half of his skill-level and given the win to Jaedong?
Well, we'll never know. That's why it is laughable to really take anything away from this series. We can take away from the first 2 and a half games that both players are seriously, intensely, and amazingly good. That Jaedong still defines ZvT and Flash's TvZ is on another planet.
What we do know, is that MBC is a joke. That this event was a waste of time for fans of Flash, Jaedong, and most importantly for the progamers and their families. Jaedong and Flash fans alike should be embarassed. There were so many ridiculous external factors (which, ironically, the virtual studio was supposed to guard against LOL) that I have a hard time taking anyone seriously who is going to use Game 4 as a means of judging either players skill or ability relative to the other player.
I hope KT Rolster keeps up on their promise and cease participating in all MBC run events. Someone needs to take a stand when ridiculous things like this happen.
I don't want to take a trophy away from Jaedong. I would be completely satisfied if there was no blackout, no virtual studio, no reserved seating, and Jaedong won 3-1. That didn't happen. There is going to be a lot of talk about this in the weeks to come and I urge everyone to throw their fanboyism aside and really look at the situation. Really look at the circus of failure that was KESPA and MBCGame on January 23rd. If E-Sports is going to grow and survive, nothing like this can ever happen again.
You didn´t like Space Armor ?! I´d do anything to get those epic costumes back...
I think that virtual studio thingy was okay and technically quite astonishing, but it still loses 100 - 0 to real shit happening in front of live audience IMO.
I wanted Jaedong to win, but not like this. I wanted to make my own blog lamenting what could have been one of Jaedong's finest moments, but I don't want to be blog # 28 T.T
I agree with you about the mental state, it's true Jaedong is quite strong mentally also but if anyone put him in the same situation and told me that he would perform 100%, you'd be full of shit. Jaedong probably would have been up 2-1anyway but I seriously doubt game 4 would have been so shitty if that whole blackout debacle hadn't occurred like you said.
Overall, it's really too bad that a simple mistake really plagued one of the best finals of all times and it was a terrible experience watching my first finals live. I wish NeverGG's prediction of MSL failure hadn't come true, but that was a pile of shit finals match.
On January 24 2010 05:50 HwangjaeTerran wrote: You didn´t like Space Armor ?! I´d do anything to get those epic costumes back...
I think that virtual studio thingy was okay and technically quite astonishing, but it still loses 100 - 0 to real shit happening in front of live audience IMO.
I wasn't anywhere near technically astonished at the awful blue screening to make Flash and Jaedong look like they were in a space station out of a Nintendo 64 Game.
I agree with most of what you said. I'm most outraged not about the decision but about the way the entire tournament was run. People seem to like that MBC did the reseeding so that Flash and Jaedong would meet but I don't think people have the forethought to see that something like this could happen if you start acting unprofessional when you run events.
On January 20 2010 22:12 Waxangel wrote: The finals between Flash and Jaedong that are to be held on the 23rd is booked for the D Auditorium at MBC (MBCGame's mother company, a national TV station). However, the players will not play in front of a live audience. Instead they will be playing from a "Virtual Studio" separated from the crowd, who will be watching via a screen at the auditorium. MBCGame says this is for the benefit of the players, so they will be able to fully concentrate on the game. Also, some fancy shmancy production techniques will probably be used.
On January 23 2010 16:01 NeverGG wrote: Hello, everyone. I'm reporting live from the NATE MSL 2009/10. It's being held at the MBC Studios in Yeoido and after an hour of waiting time we've just been allowed into the press room. The set up is very, very different to normal and the 'Virtual Studio.' is actually a massive blue screen set up in front of our press area. We're not allowed to leave during the matches and it's going to be very odd working this event. Please wish me good luck!
Come on, dude. The former was one of the biggest threads for the past week or so and the latter is on the front page.
Completely agree, well said. The worst thing of it all was how Kespa allowed Flash's dad and the coaches to drag it out for a whole hour, when they really should have been turned away after 5 minutes. What a joke.
I'm just happy that Flash didn't seem crushed afterwards, he was smiling, congratulating Jaedong and had a good atittude. I hope SC1 stays around for a few more years so Flash can get many more titles!
On January 24 2010 05:48 da_head wrote: what do you mean by virtual studio?
Did you think they were actually in space?
At least that would be a decent excuse for the technical meltdown.
And I watched the whole thing live, and it was the worst Starcraft experience of my life. Waiting for so long with their gayass commercials after game 3, and then watching game 4. I seriously felt sick to my stomach watching game 4, and I'm not even a Flash fan. I just saw a game I love get completely raped today.
so basically, you dont want to blame your favorite player for a bad series, and you dont want to admit jaedong outplayed him, so you're going to trash mbc. yeah the virtual studio was a dumb idea, but the power outage was something unpredictable (when was the last time there was a power outage during a pro game?).
I don't want to take a trophy away from Jaedong. I would be completely satisfied if there was no blackout, no virtual studio, no reserved seating, and Jaedong won 3-1. That didn't happen. There is going to be a lot of talk about this in the weeks to come and I urge everyone to throw their fanboyism aside and really look at the situation. Really look at the circus of failure that was KESPA and MBCGame on January 23rd. If E-Sports is going to grow and survive, nothing like this can ever happen again.
On January 24 2010 05:54 iamho wrote: so basically, you dont want to blame your favorite player for a bad series, and you dont want to admit jaedong outplayed him, so you're going to trash mbc. yeah the virtual studio was a dumb idea, but the power outage was something unpredictable (when was the last time there was a power outage during a pro game?).
I don't want to take a trophy away from Jaedong. I would be completely satisfied if there was no blackout, no virtual studio, no reserved seating, and Jaedong won 3-1. That didn't happen. There is going to be a lot of talk about this in the weeks to come and I urge everyone to throw their fanboyism aside and really look at the situation. Really look at the circus of failure that was KESPA and MBCGame on January 23rd. If E-Sports is going to grow and survive, nothing like this can ever happen again.
bullshit.
The power outage was easily preventable and the fact that they hadn't taken precautions is absurd. But even so, the way they handled the situation afterwards was terrible and most certainly put a huge negative strain on Flash which should never have happened. They were plain incompetent in how they handled it.
I'm a huge jaedong fan and my opinion is simillar to yours, i don't think we can take anything away from this series. Imo opinion jaedong was playing better and had flash on the back foot and would have won the series anyway, but I also think that if you put them up against each other every day for a month it would come out around 50:50, so no b-word from me.. I do however think that jaedong is the best zerg ever, and most probably the best BoX player ever
On January 24 2010 05:54 iamho wrote: so basically, you dont want to blame your favorite player for a bad series, and you dont want to admit jaedong outplayed him, so you're going to trash mbc. yeah the virtual studio was a dumb idea, but the power outage was something unpredictable (when was the last time there was a power outage during a pro game?).
I don't want to take a trophy away from Jaedong. I would be completely satisfied if there was no blackout, no virtual studio, no reserved seating, and Jaedong won 3-1. That didn't happen. There is going to be a lot of talk about this in the weeks to come and I urge everyone to throw their fanboyism aside and really look at the situation. Really look at the circus of failure that was KESPA and MBCGame on January 23rd. If E-Sports is going to grow and survive, nothing like this can ever happen again.
bullshit.
So basically, Flash wasn't affected mentally by any of this and none of this could have been avoided no matter what MBC did?
Game 3 is still one of the best games I've ever seen. I think if you just put a gg on the screen a second before the blackscreen and then ended the vod there you'd not see many people confused about why Flash gged so early. It was a great game, very nicely played by both players, but it was over. The disc was very nicely timed in that regard. 30 seconds earlier and it would have been a bit ambiguous. I think it's easy to get caught up in all the bullshit about the disc drama and Kespa and MBC fails and ignore the fact we saw some truly exceptional starcraft today.
The 3 hat before pools were ballsy, especially given Flash's recent builds, but they worked perfectly. JD read him beautifully. Game 3 was a masterful counter to Flash's aggressive 2 base allin SK terran style, a paradigm shift from the dominant 2 hat muta into guardians build every zerg uses. He designed it specifically to beat Flash and it worked beautifully. Game 4 JD switches it round, going pool first instead of 3 hat pool. Again it works as he catches Flash's 8 rax off guard. He sustains the offence and takes the win.
There was some really nice strategic and tactical Starcraft played today. For all the bullshit, we saw a complete game in game 3 and it was one of the best I've ever seen.
I wholeheartedly agree with all the things you say about mbc, and that this must have been hard on flash and the he most likely would have played better hadnt his happened. However, I am pretty sure that they would have gone for the builds they did either way and it would have put JD in a very good position. JD completely won the mind games in game 2,3 and 4, actually in game 1 too. Also I disagree about game 2, I think despite losing the guardians JD would have been in very good shape had he had a few more lings to attack the marines that were being dropped.
The difference from a normal series here is that it wasn't Jaedong who mentally crippled him. After all the bullshit that went down, how can anyone say that Jaedong is 100% the better player, the bonjwa, and the greatest progamer to walk the earth after he raped a Flash who had already been raped by the entirety of E-Sports corporate dickery?
Had Jaedong won 3-1 without the whole incident, then I still wouldnt have said that Jaedong is 100% the better player. In fact I probably would have said either way that Flash is atm still the best player in the world overall, despite being a Jaedong fanboy. But winning an MSL and thoroughly deserving to win the msl does not have to mean youre the best player, so I dont see why you would even include that in your op. Luxury deserved his title too, doesnt mean he was even close to being the best player.
Oh and if Jaedong didnt play better than Flash in game 3, then I wonder how he got such a huge advantage.
This series was one of the most hyped and anticipated series to date. Everyone wanted to see it, fuck TL alone had 5k people on it just for the streams. It promised to be amazing.
We all sat down to enjoy game 1 Game 1 reaffirmed what we all hoped. These players were out for the title, and it was going to be good. Flash predicts the build from JD and still loses to it. He knows he has to step it up.
Game 2 sets up and we see unconventional play from JD, and flash systematically rip him to shreds. We see the games taken to another level. They both really want this title. Flash takes this game.
Game 3, and the game that everyone will be talking about. The game that was awarded by referees, a game that should have been replayed. Now before I get flamed, that justification will now come.
Flash and JD are both insanely amazing players. Two of the biggest names, and each could have taken this series. Each of them knows that when backed into a corner, even with a 90% chance of failure looming, they still have the potential to bring the game back. When the blackout happened, both were in shock.
These two players looked pissed. Flash knew he was in a corner, and was pissed it was over. He was pissed the game was given to his opponent. JD also looked pissed off.
At this point, both players should have stood up, walked over to eachother and asked to regame. But they didnt. Kespa gave the game away, and after an hour of bullshit, flash threw a game away, ending the series.
During the ceremonies, JD nor Flash looked happy. Both of them know that the title JD got wasn't earned. Not because of games 3 win being awarded to JD, but because the game never got finished. They never finished their games. Now there will always be a tiny bit of doubt in this specific final.
I had hoped for a better result, but I am more surprised at the players not demanding to play. Kespa made a bad call, mbc chose a bad format. The players both showed something I never wanted to see, a lack of character I thought they would have.
On January 24 2010 05:54 iamho wrote: so basically, you dont want to blame your favorite player for a bad series, and you dont want to admit jaedong outplayed him, so you're going to trash mbc. yeah the virtual studio was a dumb idea, but the power outage was something unpredictable (when was the last time there was a power outage during a pro game?).
I don't want to take a trophy away from Jaedong. I would be completely satisfied if there was no blackout, no virtual studio, no reserved seating, and Jaedong won 3-1. That didn't happen. There is going to be a lot of talk about this in the weeks to come and I urge everyone to throw their fanboyism aside and really look at the situation. Really look at the circus of failure that was KESPA and MBCGame on January 23rd. If E-Sports is going to grow and survive, nothing like this can ever happen again.
bullshit.
So basically, Flash wasn't affected mentally by any of this and none of this could have been avoided no matter what MBC did?
any shitload of things can crash an sc game, do you think ogn had a backup generator during their finals either?
and sure flash was affected mentally by this, doesnt mean its mbc's fault. what decision would you have made? regame and screwed up jaedong's mentality instead, so we can get jd fanboys spamming the forums instead of flash fanboys?
Due to all the drama I've really missed the opportunity to share my
O____O feeling when i saw flash's HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE mnm armies in game 3
and the O_______________________________O feeling when jaedong somehow got control of that game after losing his third gas
going 3 hat before pool really gets you enough drones early enough to get a significantly earlier second gas to get carapace so quickly that battles at a certain point end up going the way they usually don't. Such a mindfuck
in my eyes the best solution would have been to stop the finals and play it again 1 week later with Jaedong leading 1:0. this may have made trouble for many people, but still the competition should be the most important thing and getting time for the situation to calm down would have been the best solution to keep the competition healthy i think. game 3 may have been well earned for Jaedong, but still it was not 100% finished and 1 hour of waiting time with everyone giving Flash his mind power going crazy crippled his mind so that game 4 was impossible to play seriously for him.
I feel that all the KeSPA hate is misplaced. They made the best decision they could, no decision they made would have been fair for both players. It was much more fair to give the game to Jaedong than it was to make him replay a game that he had won on a massively terran favored map.
The MBC hate is justified. This is all on them in my opinion - if not for that terrible virtual studio, the black out would have never happened and we wouldn't have had any controversy at all. That was seriously an embarrassment to esports, it was like going back 10 years to the Giyom vs HOT-Forever OSL final.
On January 24 2010 05:40 DoctorHelvetica wrote: KT's coach arguing with KESPA refs, threatening to forfeit the game, vowing to never participate in another mbc event, Flash's dad being escorted out by security, and the length of the whole absurd ordeal couldn't possibly have not affected Flash's mental state.
No human being is going to play the next game of StarCraft 100% when that happens. When your entire world crumbles around you in an instant and you're behind 1-2 in a StarLeague finals, no way is any human being going to bring 100% to the next game.
Being able to handle a situation like this isn't something I expect from a StarCraft champion. A champion must be able to handle distractions to a certain extent but this certainly went beyond reasonable expectation. Nonetheless, Flash could have handled it better. As soon as the power went out, Flash should have kept in mind that he's going to be playing more games that night. Whether game 3 is regamed or not, he still needs to compete.
It's possible he didn't immediately realize how far behind he was in that game, but ideally he would have given Jaedong the win. Notify the KeSPA admins that he accepts Jaedong gets the win and then move on. Otherwise, simply relax and meditate until KeSPA makes their decision.
FlaSh is the best player in the world. This is coming from a JD fan. I don't think this would've been as bad if he didn't already win the OSL. The OSL is much more prestigious anyway. I'm happy for him regardless, especially how he can smile at the end. Congratulations Flash, this is still your year .
On January 24 2010 06:18 RaGe wrote: Due to all the drama I've really missed the opportunity to share my
O____O feeling when i saw flash's HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE mnm armies in game 3
and the O_______________________________O feeling when jaedong somehow got control of that game after losing his third gas
going 3 hat before pool really gets you enough drones early enough to get a significantly earlier second gas to get carapace so quickly that battles at a certain point end up going the way they usually don't. Such a mindfuck
That was awesome. I loved JD's build. He was either super ultra aggressive (12 pool, gas -> expand), or super greedy! (3 hatch before pool...twice). Very interesting builds JD prepared.
On January 24 2010 06:28 imperator-xy wrote: i agree with you.
in my eyes the best solution would have been to stop the finals and play it again 1 week later with Jaedong leading 1:0.
your eyes are weird... lol are we just to forget about game 2 and the possible ending of game 3? that is the most illogical solution i've seen so far.
what? i think you dont understand my solution.
i dont want to forget those games. i want to have a healthy competition (with all that circumstances you can say that game 4 wasnt really what it should have been) in which both have chances to win, but still Jaedong should have an advantage as he would probably be leading 2:1 if they ended that game.
of course letting them play a regame or giving Jaedong that win would be the easiest and fastest solutions, but both are some kind of unfair for some player. the bad thing is we should have a competition that is as fair as it can be, otherwise we dont really have a competition.
On January 24 2010 06:18 RaGe wrote: Due to all the drama I've really missed the opportunity to share my
O____O feeling when i saw flash's HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE mnm armies in game 3
and the O_______________________________O feeling when jaedong somehow got control of that game after losing his third gas
going 3 hat before pool really gets you enough drones early enough to get a significantly earlier second gas to get carapace so quickly that battles at a certain point end up going the way they usually don't. Such a mindfuck
And also when flash killed 1 and was going to 4 o clock he had to fight ultras in a bad position and thats when he lost map control. And Jaedong instead of trying to save 1 o clock he just gave it up and massed more cows. I think that was a key point too.
What i thought was mad insane was how unlike other terrans where you see their nat and they have like 2 control groups of rines rallied flash constactly sends his rine to reinforce and if zerg goes for a stab he land his factory. Crazy smart.
Everyone seems to keep arguing this whole should have been a re-game angle. I don't think that is what this post is about. This post is about the decision took too long to be affirmed. They let the decision get to one of their players. After 1 hour of feeling you got robbed of a match (even though he didn't) you won't play at 100% especially if you're 17. If this situation was reverse I might see a JD 2 hatch muta all in. The fiasco killed flash in game 4 NOT jaedong.
On January 24 2010 07:45 NoobSkills wrote: Everyone seems to keep arguing this whole should have been a re-game angle. I don't think that is what this post is about. This post is about the decision took too long to be affirmed. They let the decision get to one of their players. After 1 hour of feeling you got robbed of a match (even though he didn't) you won't play at 100% especially if you're 17. If this situation was reverse I might see a JD 2 hatch muta all in. The fiasco killed flash in game 4 NOT jaedong.
Exactly. Both players were robbed of a proper Game 4.
I guess this is why people take the OSL more seriously.
From my short time following progaming (like 4 months), it really seems like there are a ton of problems with the people who manage it, and their decisions. For me, as someone who again, recently started watching progaming, its really sad to see how bad its managed, not only does it make this MSL with such potential suck, but it hurts the whole image of starcraft and E-Sports.
I am a JaeDonG fanboy and I admit that KeSPA mentally destroyed Flash in there. I agree with your post 100%. I've been looking for this finals for so long and then this shit happens. Somehow, KeSPA managed to ruin the fun again.
These results of the MSL and OSL are the best I could have hoped for, other than the "controversial" title for JD because of Game 3. I am a Movie and Jaedong fan for sure. I started really enjoying Movie's play a few months back, and have been hoping he'd do well, and so I was happy to see him get all the way to the Finals in the OSL.
However, I do appreciate how amazing Flash is. Because of this, I thought Flash deserved a title, and since Jaedong was my absolute favorite, I wanted him to win a title as well, while Movie coming in second would also satisfy me. So, Flash got the most prestigious title, with all my hopes for the players coming true. I'm glad it turned out this way.
On January 24 2010 07:45 NoobSkills wrote: Everyone seems to keep arguing this whole should have been a re-game angle. I don't think that is what this post is about. This post is about the decision took too long to be affirmed. They let the decision get to one of their players. After 1 hour of feeling you got robbed of a match (even though he didn't) you won't play at 100% especially if you're 17. If this situation was reverse I might see a JD 2 hatch muta all in. The fiasco killed flash in game 4 NOT jaedong.
Exactly. Both players were robbed of a proper Game 4.
Thank you this was what I was gonna say as well. After a series of misunfortunate events, I doubt anyone could've been able to play the 4th game with the right mindset. FlaSh looked drained and disappointed. No one wants a game, especially as good as that one, to end in that fashion. You gotta realize FlaSh is a 17 yr old boy, anyone at his age, at an event as big as MSL, would've just lost the will and drive to win after all that nonsense.
MSL is shit, they need a new PD and fire the one that they have right now (should've done it already when he did that stupid subliminal message during the kal vs jaedong series).
I agree with the OP saying that who knows how Flash would have played in game 4 IF the power outage wouldn't have happened. Also, people should be very cautious when saying that Jaedong would have won game 3 "9 times out of 10" or "Jaedong pretty much had game 3". Those are quite vague assumptions and are more emotional than factual. We have all seen much greater comebacks in Starcraft. While Jaedong normally doesn't miss a beat, it's Flash he's playing against.
Flash won game 2, and I actually thought he wouldn't win the game. But he showed us all that he knew what he was doing and what if he would have used like 2 dropships in the third game too, right after the power outage occured?
Let's say he sent one dropship to Jaedong's main and one to his 3'd o clock AND simultaneously would have attacked his 7 o clock with m&m + vessels? JD might have been in great trouble tbh.
On January 24 2010 08:19 vhallee wrote: I am a JaeDonG fanboy and I admit that KeSPA mentally destroyed Flash in there. I agree with your post 100%. I've been looking for this finals for so long and then this shit happens. Somehow, KeSPA managed to ruin the fun again.
I don't think it's KeSPA that you should blame. IMO, they made the right decision. If MSL didnt screw up and prepared properly, this would've never happened. As far as I know, it was the computer heater that crashed FlaSh's computer.
you know, even with the disconnect and rewarding the game to jaedong, it would have been better if flash's network of support acted like better people.
you have jaedong, his teammates and coach going up to him and basically saying, "shit, this really sucks, but keep doing what you are doing man, we are with you. play your best with no regrets and leave this match behind you"
then on the other end of the spectrum, flash's coach are going crazy, his dad is going crazy, his teammates WALK OUT ON HIM (did they? im not sure but many people have mentioned it) i mean, they made flash BROOD over that set for like an HOUR. instead of his coach just telling him, "wow, i don't know wtf just happened, but lets move on to the next match and pay jaedong back" you have them arguing with the refs nonstop (comon, watch the nfl or nba, arguing in the refs get you nowhere, just kicked out and fined) which came to the conclusion of nothing, wasted time and effort, and just disruptive to everyone.
ugh it rages me hard, but i have to admit, kespa made the right decision. in the SHITTY circumstances they were dealt, they proceeded with probably the best method possible. a replay of the game would have DESTROYED jaedong's psyche. (i don't get why people believe he would just be pissed and play better, it is basically robbing him of a win almost). it was a lose-lose situation and they did the best they could (unlike other instances like leta and his monitor crashing). both players were playing their hearts out, and you saw jaedongs miracle plays (flanking, flash never had more than like 3-4 vessels, the epic defense and swarms and flash with his monster macro, almost winning the game by knocking out 2 of 3 expos)
it really is just a shame. i wish flash's coach just went up to his booth, encouraged him for his next set and helped him calm down. i wish his dad wasnt being such a douche. i wish MBC WOULD HAVE FREAKING JUST GOT THEIR SHIT TOGETHER. but alas, you can't turn back time.
ugh, jaedong does deserve the win, but its just a shame.
On January 24 2010 08:27 Foucault wrote: I agree with the OP saying that who knows how Flash would have played in game 4 IF the power outage wouldn't have happened. Also, people should be very cautious when saying that Jaedong would have won game 3 "9 times out of 10" or "Jaedong pretty much had game 3". Those are quite vague assumptions and are more emotional than factual. We have all seen much greater comebacks in Starcraft. While Jaedong normally doesn't miss a beat, it's Flash he's playing against.
Flash won game 2, and I actually thought he wouldn't win the game. But he showed us all that he knew what he was doing and what if he would have used like 2 dropships in the third game too, right after the power outage occured?
Let's say he sent one dropship to Jaedong's main and one to his 3'd o clock AND simultaneously would have attacked his 7 o clock with m&m + vessels? JD might have been in great trouble tbh.
the problem was this: flash was down to basically 1 mining base for minerals (his nat was almost mined out) he had 10 mariens and like 5 medics left after pushing at 7 for those nonstop battles he had no dropships, no tanks, and like 2 -3 vessels
jaedong was still running out of 3-4 bases (he was setting up 1) if flash decided to commit most of his forces into drops, jaedong woulda just gone and destroyed flash's only mining expo (well one that would last past 2 minutes)
flash had to commit to defense (which he was trying to do, securing his min-only by retreating his few forces or be prepared to trade bases with jaedong (the most he could take out was 2 at best, 2 starport, one round of dropships, if he waited for anymore, jaedong would have amassed a nice little army since flash would have to stop pressuring him to conserve his units)
in game 2, flash was setting up 2 more expos so he had a better chance of coming back. jaedong had no army basically when he dropped (jaedong was very commited to tech units and they were like a minute off from spawning) flash had that one window to knock out jaedong and he did it beautifully, but he would also be set up for the late game if he didnt knock out jaedong with that blow. the 3rd game, if flash committed anywhere outside of his mineral only, he would lose his one real base he had left. it sucks, but it was the right decision awarding jaedong the win. like i said in a previous post, its just a damn shame that mbc fucked up and his coach/parents/teammates were being such assholes. complaining instead of cheering/calming down/ pumping up flash instead.
This post just made wonder what would have happened had the power outage occurred right as flash was killing Jaedong's 3rd. I thought Jaedong was screwed at that point, but he came back and was able to get the advantage. One can argue that Jaedong was not behind at that point, but Flash had a really fucking scary army that Jaedong just sorta ran over.
On January 24 2010 09:17 piratebay wrote: you know, even with the disconnect and rewarding the game to jaedong, it would have been better if flash's network of support acted like better people.
you have jaedong, his teammates and coach going up to him and basically saying, "shit, this really sucks, but keep doing what you are doing man, we are with you. play your best with no regrets and leave this match behind you"
then on the other end of the spectrum, flash's coach are going crazy, his dad is going crazy, his teammates WALK OUT ON HIM (did they? im not sure but many people have mentioned it) i mean, they made flash BROOD over that set for like an HOUR. instead of his coach just telling him, "wow, i don't know wtf just happened, but lets move on to the next match and pay jaedong back" you have them arguing with the refs nonstop (comon, watch the nfl or nba, arguing in the refs get you nowhere, just kicked out and fined) which came to the conclusion of nothing, wasted time and effort, and just disruptive to everyone.
ugh it rages me hard, but i have to admit, kespa made the right decision. in the SHITTY circumstances they were dealt, they proceeded with probably the best method possible. a replay of the game would have DESTROYED jaedong's psyche. (i don't get why people believe he would just be pissed and play better, it is basically robbing him of a win almost). it was a lose-lose situation and they did the best they could (unlike other instances like leta and his monitor crashing). both players were playing their hearts out, and you saw jaedongs miracle plays (flanking, flash never had more than like 3-4 vessels, the epic defense and swarms and flash with his monster macro, almost winning the game by knocking out 2 of 3 expos)
it really is just a shame. i wish flash's coach just went up to his booth, encouraged him for his next set and helped him calm down. i wish his dad wasnt being such a douche. i wish MBC WOULD HAVE FREAKING JUST GOT THEIR SHIT TOGETHER. but alas, you can't turn back time.
ugh, jaedong does deserve the win, but its just a shame.
This is something I wanted to point out as well. Flash being in a really bad mental state isn't just kespas fault. In fact as soon as they had decided what they would do, it would be incredibly foolish, and make them look way way stupider if they chose to revoke their decision just because flash's dad disagrees with them. Flash sees his coach/team causing a shitstorm, while Jaedong is getting massaged, given positive messages and support. In my opinion this was a stupid mistake by the KTF coach. I understand it, I would have been upset, too, I would have been fucking angry and I probably would have reacted the same way, but he shouldn't have it was wrong and a stupid thing to do, because even though he was defending flash, he sure has hell didn't help flash with how he reacted. He should have told flash's dad (who probably doesnt know shit about sc) to calm down and should have told flash to move on and focus on the next game.
In game 4 Flash 8 raxed and Jaedong 9 pooled. This is a sizable build order disadvantage, that will result in a Jaedong victory a majority of the time. And seeing how Fighting Spirit was the map Flash thumbed down, I believe both played had planned their build orders on that map. Maybe a totally focused Flash comes back from that, but if you ask me the result would be the same anyway.
To be honest, I don't think Flash expected a regame in his situation. Imagine you are in that same losing scenario, where you are forced to pull some sort of amazing comeback with virtually nothing to come back with. You know you've pretty much lost at that point. Even if it is the MSL finals, you're not going to argue to replay a lost game because it's not something you would expect. Jaedong won game 3. But what happened in between is where most of the controversy lies. Flash just looked like he gave up in game 4. He didn't seem to care any more - he gg'd right as his nat was broken, which is almost never a gg situation for Terran (Flash vs Savior @ Bluestorm) - especially in the deciding game of a starleague finals. So Jaedong won this MSL 2-1.
It doesn't even feel like a StarLeague Finals, it was more like some show put on by MBC. Just thinking about it gives me odd feelings.
On January 24 2010 10:07 NeoOmega wrote: In game 4 Flash 8 raxed and Jaedong 9 pooled. This is a sizable build order disadvantage, that will result in a Jaedong victory a majority of the time. And seeing how Fighting Spirit was the map Flash thumbed down, I believe both played had planned their build orders on that map. Maybe a totally focused Flash comes back from that, but if you ask me the result would be the same anyway.
Who knows, you could be right, you could be wrong. If only we could get an interview with Flash...
On January 24 2010 10:07 NeoOmega wrote: In game 4 Flash 8 raxed and Jaedong 9 pooled. This is a sizable build order disadvantage, that will result in a Jaedong victory a majority of the time. And seeing how Fighting Spirit was the map Flash thumbed down, I believe both played had planned their build orders on that map. Maybe a totally focused Flash comes back from that, but if you ask me the result would be the same anyway.
Who knows, you could be right, you could be wrong. If only we could get an interview with Flash...
Statistically flash would not have cheesed. Because he doesn't cheese anymore. IMO The cheese was brought on by JD's greedy BO(good strat no credit taken away) and Flash's kid's mentality that if Kespa wants to steal a game from me I'll steal one from them.
Now were stuck with 3 good games instead of the possible 5. I hope next time they meet in a BO5 nothing like this happens. To be honest game 3 was the only intense one. Game 1 JD made flash look like a D- iccup user. Game 2 Flash made JD look like a D+ iccup user. Lmfao @ sunken war.
On January 24 2010 11:08 BanZu wrote: Sigh, this whole ordeal makes me sad.
It doesn't even feel like a StarLeague Finals, it was more like some show put on by MBC. Just thinking about it gives me odd feelings.
On January 24 2010 10:07 NeoOmega wrote: In game 4 Flash 8 raxed and Jaedong 9 pooled. This is a sizable build order disadvantage, that will result in a Jaedong victory a majority of the time. And seeing how Fighting Spirit was the map Flash thumbed down, I believe both played had planned their build orders on that map. Maybe a totally focused Flash comes back from that, but if you ask me the result would be the same anyway.
Who knows, you could be right, you could be wrong. If only we could get an interview with Flash...
Statistically flash would not have cheesed. Because he doesn't cheese anymore. IMO The cheese was brought on by JD's greedy BO(good strat no credit taken away) and Flash's kid's mentality that if Kespa wants to steal a game from me I'll steal one from them.
Please. Do not insult Flash like that, he's not that fucking stupid
Now were stuck with 3 good games instead of the possible 5. I hope next time they meet in a BO5 nothing like this happens. To be honest game 3 was the only intense one. Game 1 JD made flash look like a D- iccup user. Game 2 Flash made JD look like a D+ iccup user.
Lmfao @ sunken war.
If you think he made JD look like a D+ iccup user, then sorry, you have no idea about starcraft. Plus, he didnt even make him go for that strategy, it was JD who chose to do this sunken heavy style because of the layout of the map.
On January 24 2010 11:08 BanZu wrote: Sigh, this whole ordeal makes me sad.
It doesn't even feel like a StarLeague Finals, it was more like some show put on by MBC. Just thinking about it gives me odd feelings.
On January 24 2010 10:07 NeoOmega wrote: In game 4 Flash 8 raxed and Jaedong 9 pooled. This is a sizable build order disadvantage, that will result in a Jaedong victory a majority of the time. And seeing how Fighting Spirit was the map Flash thumbed down, I believe both played had planned their build orders on that map. Maybe a totally focused Flash comes back from that, but if you ask me the result would be the same anyway.
Who knows, you could be right, you could be wrong. If only we could get an interview with Flash...
Statistically flash would not have cheesed. Because he doesn't cheese anymore. IMO The cheese was brought on by JD's greedy BO(good strat no credit taken away) and Flash's kid's mentality that if Kespa wants to steal a game from me I'll steal one from them.
Now were stuck with 3 good games instead of the possible 5. I hope next time they meet in a BO5 nothing like this happens. To be honest game 3 was the only intense one. Game 1 JD made flash look like a D- iccup user. Game 2 Flash made JD look like a D+ iccup user. Lmfao @ sunken war.
On January 24 2010 11:08 BanZu wrote: Sigh, this whole ordeal makes me sad.
It doesn't even feel like a StarLeague Finals, it was more like some show put on by MBC. Just thinking about it gives me odd feelings.
On January 24 2010 10:07 NeoOmega wrote: In game 4 Flash 8 raxed and Jaedong 9 pooled. This is a sizable build order disadvantage, that will result in a Jaedong victory a majority of the time. And seeing how Fighting Spirit was the map Flash thumbed down, I believe both played had planned their build orders on that map. Maybe a totally focused Flash comes back from that, but if you ask me the result would be the same anyway.
Who knows, you could be right, you could be wrong. If only we could get an interview with Flash...
Statistically flash would not have cheesed. Because he doesn't cheese anymore. IMO The cheese was brought on by JD's greedy BO(good strat no credit taken away) and Flash's kid's mentality that if Kespa wants to steal a game from me I'll steal one from them.
Please. Do not insult Flash like that, he's not that fucking stupid
Now were stuck with 3 good games instead of the possible 5. I hope next time they meet in a BO5 nothing like this happens. To be honest game 3 was the only intense one. Game 1 JD made flash look like a D- iccup user. Game 2 Flash made JD look like a D+ iccup user.
Lmfao @ sunken war.
If you think he made JD look like a D+ iccup user, then sorry, you have no idea about starcraft. Plus, he didnt even make him go for that strategy, it was JD who chose to do this sunken heavy style because of the layout of the map.
Statistically it is a map that makes it hard for Z to get a 3rd gas. Jaedong had the 3rd gas, but instead of getting lurkers he went guardians. Which in the end might have proven to be a waste no matter where he put them up. Jaedong knows guardians are typically worthless unless you catch the T off guard and even if you do vessels can easily erase them if necessary. Just 4-8 lurkers could have stopped the elevator. And I said what i meant JD looked better in his 1st loss than flash did in his first loss. The layout of the map had nothing to do with his poor choice.
Flash is not stupid about starcraft. Probably will prove himself to be the #1 or #2 starcraft player of all time if this game lasts long enough, but I called the cheese the second the ruling was made. Then over an hour later the cheese went down. JD overpooled because he knows flash and GG happened.
EPT
.
