EPTBetter watch the whole thing btw, but at the 05:34 PJ is putting up ninja expo (Artosis says it out while commentating). Just 2 seconds later Bisu sends probe right over there to scout. If you think this is a pure coincidence you're probably
Skill chasm between Koreans and foreigners
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1984
Ukraine115 Posts
Better watch the whole thing btw, but at the 05:34 PJ is putting up ninja expo (Artosis says it out while commentating). Just 2 seconds later Bisu sends probe right over there to scout. If you think this is a pure coincidence you're probably | ||
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meeple
Canada10211 Posts
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
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ThePhan2m
Norway2750 Posts
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1984
Ukraine115 Posts
On November 14 2009 00:34 meeple wrote: So you think Bisu was tipped off cuz he heard the crowd or because he has star-sense?? Hm, I'd say because he's Bisu  | ||
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1984
Ukraine115 Posts
On November 14 2009 00:36 ThePhan2m wrote: anyone would have done that?? the first thing you do when you got someone contained is to check they dont have secret expos Yes, but I've never seen so perfect and precise timing. | ||
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meeple
Canada10211 Posts
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
Bisu pretty much played perfectly after his initial attack failed and he fell back to his base. | ||
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1984
Ukraine115 Posts
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
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1984
Ukraine115 Posts
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ThePhan2m
Norway2750 Posts
On November 14 2009 00:38 1984 wrote: Yes, but I've never seen so perfect and precise timing. I was only talking about the scouting, the timing of the DT was perfect and precise yes. 1984 Ukraine. November 14 2009 01:02. Posts 76 PM Profile Blog Quote I don't play protoss at all, but it didn't look like 100% mistake. He went fast expo so he needed to build more gateways and dragoons to catch up in army. So may be if PJ have built an early observer he'd fail to defend that first attack. A kind of trade-off that gave Bisu the small timing window to exploit. Does it make sense?Last edit: 2009-11-14 01:06:13 He was going for reaver, he had all the time in the world to build the observatory first, and get out observer to get it safe when he had the advantage. It was a mistake! | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28626 Posts
bisu faces mass dragoon+expansion+slow robotics and makes a dark templar..that's not revolutionary nor great, it's just logical. in fact I think he made a mistake attacking the goons, should rather have built 2 dts and sent the first one towards pjs main and used the second to attack goons. | ||
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lokiM
United States3407 Posts
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1984
Ukraine115 Posts
On November 14 2009 01:10 Liquid`Drone wrote: that game was overhyped as fuck bisu faces mass dragoon+expansion+slow robotics and makes a dark templar..that's not revolutionary nor great, it's just logical. in fact I think he made a mistake attacking the goons, should rather have built 2 dts and sent the first one towards pjs main and used the second to attack goons. I think observer timing (it popped out almost right after the chased army arrived back to the natural) was more or less fine to defend first sneaky dt, he may have killed few probes but not many, and considering 2 nexuses against one it's not a big deal. On November 14 2009 01:14 lokiM wrote: how can you say this is 1 of the most beautiful games you've ever seen? PJ got ahead, then fucked up badly.. you need to watch moer SC Dunno, it's all completely subjective stuff, but when I think of games better than this one only Flash vs FBH comes to mind. Ok, may be also Fantasy vs Jaedong on Outsider. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 14 2009 01:10 Liquid`Drone wrote: that game was overhyped as fuck bisu faces mass dragoon+expansion+slow robotics and makes a dark templar..that's not revolutionary nor great, it's just logical. in fact I think he made a mistake attacking the goons, should rather have built 2 dts and sent the first one towards pjs main and used the second to attack goons. | ||
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alexpnd
Canada1857 Posts
On November 14 2009 01:02 1984 wrote: I don't play protoss at all, but it didn't look like 100% mistake. He went fast expo so he needed to build more gateways and dragoons to catch up in army. So may be if PJ have built an early observer he'd fail to defend that first attack. A kind of trade-off that gave Bisu the small timing window to exploit. Does it make sense? Sort of. He already had the robo so why not build an observatory, and he didn't need as many units as bisu did to contain him due to the small choke. | ||
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lokiM
United States3407 Posts
On November 14 2009 01:10 Liquid`Drone wrote: that game was overhyped as fuck bisu faces mass dragoon+expansion+slow robotics and makes a dark templar..that's not revolutionary nor great, it's just logical. in fact I think he made a mistake attacking the goons, should rather have built 2 dts and sent the first one towards pjs main and used the second to attack goons. he didn't need more than 1, he just wanted PJ to run his goons away, and he also had no idea at the time of when he would have observers out, lets say he built 2 dts and pj had a observer a little earlier, then the DTs would be useless. 1 DT was enough and more cost effective in that given situation. BTW PJ also blocked his entire base off anyways to prevent dts | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28626 Posts
pj knows that bisu knows that bisu is the better player. thus, pj knows that bisu is likely to play safe and not get himself cheesed, and that he is unlikely to do any cheesy builds. this means that bisu is not going to do : fast dt, 3 gate goon no robo, or fast exp, because these builds all die against a counter build. as a consequence of this, pj does a build order that counters a build order that counters fast dt, 3 gate goon no robo or fast exp - fast exp himself. fast exp would die against fast dt or 3 gate goon no robo, but because bisu is the better player mechanically and because he is aware of this, those build orders are unlikely for him to utilize. this is what you can refer to as an "educated gamble" from pj - every now and then he just dies after 7 minutes, but whenever he does not, he has gained a significant advantage, whereas if he tried any other build order he would never die after 7 minutes but also never have a significant advantage. so then pj gets an advantage in this game which he initially capitalizes upon, but he focuses too much on the containment and neglects defending vs dt, even though this is the most likely followup from bisu after he gets contained.. so basically pj's opening was great, bisu's opening was exactly as expected, and pj fucked up afterwards allowing bisu to come back through doing what was expected once more. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28626 Posts
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1984
Ukraine115 Posts
 Any other ways Bisu could've come back from that situation? | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28626 Posts
but pj should know that bisu is mounting some form of all out attack, so he just needs to defend against any that can come. he should make a couple pylons around the perimeter of bisus base so he's not caught off guard by shuttled out troops, he should have enough goons in his main to defend vs reaver drop, and he should have detection in time for dark templar. if he does not lose within 5 minutes of defending bisu's initial attack, he does not lose. | ||
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vnlegend
United States1389 Posts
Once you contain somebody, the first thing you do is check for expos. In fact it's pretty much a prerequisite since it completes your containment. Who didn't know/doesn't do this ??? | ||
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1984
Ukraine115 Posts
On November 14 2009 02:51 vnlegend wrote: Uh, there is a huge skill difference but your example is terrible. Once you contain somebody, the first thing you do is check for expos. In fact it's pretty much a prerequisite since it completes your containment. Who didn't know/doesn't do this ??? It looks like you haven't watched it in the VOD, just read and imagined. It's much more impressive to see. Anyway, imo small nice moments like this are better illustration of skill difference than just standard no-chance rape that happens in almost every WCG game between koreans and others. In case of the whole game you can't truly understand why the winner won. "He's got better micro, better macro" aren't really explanations, it's like saying aircrafts fly b/c they have wings and engine. You get the general idea but not detailed understanding. And not the scouting itself was great, but the timing of it. | ||
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Foucault
Sweden2826 Posts
1)Mechanics 2)focus on early, mid and late game and not just late game like many foreigners (ret). I've seen foreigners get dismantled so quick alot of times because of the fact that they just have this build order figured out and while they play along their plan, their korean opponent kills them lol I thought of this when Stork beat Brat_OK. Koreans go for the kill whenever possible, foreigners are too stuck on their BO:s and theoretical aspects of Starcraft. They need more mechanics and sense of timings. Hilarious when Tasteless and Artosis spoke about Fengzi's low apm, and that apm doesn't matter that much. The following moments you could see alot of bad stuff happening to him because of low apm lol. He wasn't fast enough to run away with some units, wasn't all over the place etc. I'm sorry but you NEED APM in Starcraft, preferrably 200 minimum. | ||
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Zozma
United States1626 Posts
On November 14 2009 03:17 Foucault wrote: Well, duh.The difference is imo 2 big things: 1)Mechanics 2)focus on early, mid and late game and not  Just late game like many foreigners (Ret). I've seen foreigners get dismantled so quick alot of times because of the fact that they Just have this build order figured out and while they play along their plan, their korean opponent kills them lolI thought of this when  Stork beat Brat_OK. Koreans go for the  Kill whenever possible, foreigners are too stuck on their BO:s and theoretical aspects of Starcraft. They need more mechanics and Sense of timings.Hilarious when Tasteless and Artosis spoke about Fengzi's low apm, and that apm doesn't matter that much. The following moments you could see alot of bad stuff happening to him because of low apm lol. He wasn't fast enough to run away with some units, wasn't all over the place etc. I'm sorry but you NEED APM in Starcraft, preferrably 200 minimum. If you had 0 APM, that would mean you weren't doing anything. You need to do things -> you need some APM. I don't see what you're saying. | ||
KwarK
United States42443 Posts
On November 14 2009 00:36 ThePhan2m wrote: anyone would have done that?? the first thing you do when you got someone contained is to check they dont have secret expos This is standard. Your thought process should always be "what can he do from this position to win? what can I do against that". Secret expo was high up on that list, scouting for it was the solution. I do that. | ||
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KwarK
United States42443 Posts
On November 14 2009 03:17 Foucault wrote: I thought of this when Stork beat Brat_OK. Koreans go for the kill whenever possible, foreigners are too stuck on their BO:s and theoretical aspects of Starcraft. They need more mechanics and sense of timings. I find the opposite to be true, especially in PvT. Korean Protoss players are happy to let the Terran camp and play for the late game, even when the Terran is taking his 3rd off of 5 sieged tanks. Whereas foreigner Protoss players are way more eager to shove the goon micro in there, even though it's semi allin. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On November 14 2009 01:10 Liquid`Drone wrote: that game was overhyped as fuck bisu faces mass dragoon+expansion+slow robotics and makes a dark templar..that's not revolutionary nor great, it's just logical. in fact I think he made a mistake attacking the goons, should rather have built 2 dts and sent the first one towards pjs main and used the second to attack goons. I kind of felt the same. By the way people were talking about this game, you'd think it was something truly magnificent like that game I think of Kingdom vs Reach on 815 where DA's were used. Anyway, it was pretty much a big letdown. The moment Bisu broke out it was over. On November 14 2009 03:17 Foucault wrote: Hilarious when Tasteless and Artosis spoke about Fengzi's low apm, and that apm doesn't matter that much. The following moments you could see alot of bad stuff happening to him because of low apm lol. He wasn't fast enough to run away with some units, wasn't all over the place etc. I'm sorry but you NEED APM in Starcraft, preferrably 200 minimum. It does and it doesn't. Fengzi's speed is fine for being one of the top foreigners, but it's not enough for modern professional gaming. On November 14 2009 04:26 KwarK wrote: I find the opposite to be true, especially in PvT. Korean Protoss players are happy to let the Terran camp and play for the late game, even when the Terran is taking his 3rd off of 5 sieged tanks. Whereas foreigner Protoss players are way more eager to shove the goon micro in there, even though it's semi allin. ? I disagree, even in PvT. If you're saying that foreigners are more likely to go for an all-in or a "semi-all-in," then yes, I'd agree, but when I watch top foreigner Protoss players, I notice that they don't do as good a job maintaing pressure as top Koreans. I see way too many games of top foreigners like this: Stage 1: dt rush, dt drop or reaver drop Stage 2: double expand Stage 3: late game And don't get me started on how vastly superior Korean TvZ/ZvT is. Vastly more pressure applied continuously. With most foreigners, especially when it comes to TvZ/ZvT, pressure more often means "cheese." | ||
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Baddieko
Singapore855 Posts
Tomorrow stork gonna use standard timing BOs and roll over him easy. | ||
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igotmyown
United States4291 Posts
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Baddieko
Singapore855 Posts
On November 14 2009 01:02 1984 wrote: I don't play protoss at all, but it didn't look like 100% mistake. He went fast expo so he needed to build more gateways and dragoons to catch up in army. So may be if PJ have built an early observer he'd fail to defend that first attack. A kind of trade-off that gave Bisu the small timing window to exploit. Does it make sense? it makes sense but it dosen't make sense when pj don't warp his observatory together with robo bay. Because he was going 4 gate after a quick expand and he definitely need obs. Bisu's ob scouted the lack of observatory and execute his gameplan. When the DT get the slice then pj warp it, too late. Amateur mistake though. | ||
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DreaM)XeRO
Korea (South)4667 Posts
We call it "star-sense" but i bet bisu thought of it as a nasty suprise | ||
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Foucault
Sweden2826 Posts
On November 14 2009 04:26 KwarK wrote: I find the opposite to be true, especially in PvT. Korean Protoss players are happy to let the Terran camp and play for the late game, even when the Terran is taking his 3rd off of 5 sieged tanks. Whereas foreigner Protoss players are way more eager to shove the goon micro in there, even though it's semi allin. Maybe so, that might be because korean protoss players are quite comfortable with late game PvT, who wouldn't be? Arbiters rule the world. So I guess it might be matchup dependent. Also I agree with what Mortality said about pressure. I forgot who he played but Stork knows how to put on early game pressure against Terran opponents. He just walks up to their wall and starts bashing away and trying to snipe any tank that comes up. Foreigner tosses are maybe like "ok there's the tank, I'll back off, exp and go into mid-game." They take these strategical steps in their head based on build orders and expoing and misses the chances to kill their opponent at different stages. I thought the same thing watching some of the games from WCG where Bisu just knows when to go in and kick ass, regardless of early/mid/late-game. Where foreigners think of the game as being in different stages, koreans see timings and catch foreigners off guard all the time. Korean players keep the pressure up in early, mid and late game. Same thing when I watched those games on SCforall where koreans played foreigners. Some games with Inc there who lost 2 quick games, because the korean Terran engaged him early on by first delaying his expo and then keeping the pressure until they won very early in the game. Incontrol is aggressive too but looked like he at least wanted to get into a certain phase in the game before he started to "play" for real. Bottomline, koreans in general play aggressive Starcraft. All the time | ||
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EsX_Raptor
United States2801 Posts
edit: this thread is very insightful, i totally agree with folocault and mortality | ||
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Mortician
Bulgaria2332 Posts
On November 14 2009 07:13 Foucault wrote: Bottomline, koreans in general play aggressive Starcraft. All the time What about Savior? | ||
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Xenocide_Knight
Korea (South)2625 Posts
I doubt if Savior saw an opening he would just jank it | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
Eh seems that even the #2 Protoss can't beat this :p Also i'm quite sure that he had no info about the slow robotic. I think he kinda gambled because he was really behind. If PJ started his robo BEFORE his 4 gates it could have been different. I guess he was more scared of a quick 3 gates goons + reaver than the weird goon/Dt/reaver by Bisu so he wanted a bit more goons and decided to get obs like 30s later. edit: i think you are all missing how small the "window" for the dts was. | ||
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