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iccup goal+strategy update reps included

Blogs > FyRe_DragOn
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FyRe_DragOn
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada2056 Posts
October 19 2009 03:21 GMT
#1
warning: long winded strategic explanations lol

So I made a blog at the beginning of the iccup season about my goal of getting A- finally and I said I would update it periodically with my progress in both rank and knowledge. Today i made B rank which im pretty happy with as I still have half of the season left over to achieve the last two ranks http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/gamingprofile/NrG.DragOn.html

Ive come to realize more and more that how you think affects your play tremendously, and confidence in general can be the difference between an ez win and an embarassing defeat. (this applies in real life too lol) In the past I have often played with the additude of being the underdog, and i often viewed myself that way even vs players of the same skill level. This made it seem to me as if any disadvantage i had during the game was larger than it actually was, resulting in rash decisions on my part to try to make up for it, or my forgetting simple things because I was mentally intimidating myself. This is especially true in series matches, and i became known to my friends as the player who always went 1-2 in clanwars, which was pretty depressing lol. It also creates losing/winning streaks during ladder gaming, something any1 who has mass gamed can undoubtedly attest to. This weekend I had a 11 game winning streak, due entirely to my confidence in my play.

This was mainly due to two things, both involving the motw Destination. I was having a lot of trouble on that map because #1 I thought pvz was impossibly hard to play from the top position, and #2 I thought it was impossibly hard to play pvt in any position (plz dont flame me terrans who cant defend cheese) These thoughts were pretty self defeating, especially since I had what seemed like pretty solid evidence to support these conclusions, being that I had about a 15% win ratio pvz from the top, and about a 0% win ratio pvt from any position.

To start off explaining why I was so fucking bad at these matchups, I need to mention that the top position on destination is impossible to FE on. This is because the top and bottom are not reverses of each other even though they look very similar. I dont know if this is common knowledge or not, a couple people ive played did not know about it and some did, but anyway the key difference is that the mineral in back of the top position is 1 or 2 spaces farther away from your nat than the one on the bottom. This means that you cant position a cannon in your natural that will just barely be able to reach the drone trying to mine out your back entrance as is the case @ the bottom position. So this means that FEing @ the top position pvz is incredibly bad, as the zerg can mine out your back entrance free of charge at any point in time until you get your first dragoon, or else you make a an extra pylon + couple cannons above that position in your main to block it off, which would make your nexus and tech very very slow so you get a disadvantage no matter what you do in that position, unless the zerg doesnt realize your mistake and doesnt think of mining out your back. Ive actually had a protoss opponent who got the top position leave the game immediately and remake until he got the bottom lol.

The solution to this problem is obviously just to not fast expand pvz when you get the top. However, this presents the problem of what to do instead...you could 2gate!! you could hope your zerg opponent is too stupid to scout before making lings or drones, and instead only makes 2-6 lings before his overlord gets to your base and therefore loses to your 3-5 zealots that you hid in your base. I have actually lost to this as zerg and its embarassing as fuck. No zerg should ever lose this way. 2gate opening on destination is terrible because the distance between your base and his is too long for an effective zlot rush. In addition, it is easy for zergs to position their hatchery/den/evo and wall off their sunkens or at least make it very hard for the protoss to attack, so zlot rushing is definately out. This applies to a speedzealot rush as well, I have learned not to rush zerg with zealots on destination if they make their 3rd hatchery in their natural, because its just not going to do anything. Well...I could 1gate sair/dt!! Unfortunately this blows and can be killed by almost anything. The reason: As i just mentioned, zergs can wall off their natural very easily so if you cant get multiple zealots past their block its pretty unlikely that a single dt is going to do anything. This means you will be using your dts solely for defensive purposes until the zerg expands again and you might have an oportunity to kill drones. So you cant really do anything do the zerg until after each of you have multiple bases. The only advantage it has is the corsair scout. If you can keep it alive you can try to streamline your build against what he is planning, which is your only hope of getting ahead because you wont otherwise after your lack of aggression or economic growth early on. you will be walking a very thin line for a few minutes, in which the zerg can ling all in which rapes your small force of zealots and then dances around your dts killing probes and buildings, ling runby to mutas which does the same thing except avoiding your slow ass zealots instead of raping them, 2hatch hydra 3hatch hydra etc etc it just seems that you never have enough money to be able to defend all this and then afford more gateways at the same time, allowing zerg to easily contain (a huge bitch on destination)and outmacro you even if his aggression worked out unfavorably. Imo FE is far better than 1gate unless you can harass with your sair/dt which is almost impossible on destination.

Ok, so I didnt like using 2gate, 1gate tech, or FE. Thats 100% of pvz openings LOL OR IS IT? I was playing my friend NrG.YoonHo zvp on destination a few days ago and experimenting with builds, one of the builds he used was an oldschool 1gate forge expand build against me while on the top position, and it seemed to work very well against my 12hatch opening. Unfortunately, the problem with this build was that it doesnt do so well against 9pool or overpool because you cant be aggressive with 1 zlot vs 6 lings. The point of 1gate forge is to expand while zerg is occupied with your 1 zlot harassing his drones in his main. Otherwise you wont be able to expand safely off 1gate. However, the positioning of his 1st pylon allowed him to remedy that situation, and expand safely even if I had gone for an early ling build. You can make a pylon on the ridge above your natural that allows you to place a cannon in your natural from its psi field thing without having to wait for a new pylon in your natural first. This is really important because it narrows the window zergs have to attack your natural before your cannons are up, and further allows, if you are caught with your pants down and too many lings coming, to easily cancel that one cannon and retreat up your ramp again at almost no cost and losing no pylons, turning a disadvantage into an advantage. I tried it out on ladder and immediately felt that I had found the right build to use, it felt as economically and defensively solid as FE but without the drawback of leaving your backdoor unguarded. I give 100% credit for this discovery to YoonHo, that kid is a genius. (however, u still swallow my e-cum ^_^)

Here is a game I played today with that build:
http://rapidshare.com/files/294862084/5592_NrGDragOnP_7xbaltrolZ.rep.html

here is a game where I get embarassingly raped that illustrates how bad FE is on that position:
http://rapidshare.com/files/294865795/5537_NrGDragOnP_GreatWaterZ.rep.html

Okay, so after that revelation, I havent lost a pvz from the top position yet

This is getting really long, so ill sum up my pvt experiences by saying that I am a really standard macro based player and that style just doesnt work on destination. Ive learned that I need to be aggressive all throughout the game and prevent the terran from taking a strong position on the map. I cant really prevent him from taking his third as its so easy to defend with the cliff of his main overlooking it, but I can try to stall his natural, damage his main, and prevent him from getting any more bases than three (this one is really important) Also, alot of the time by putting pressure on the terran you relieve pressure (harass) from yourself, so that has helped a alot because I have a hard time dealing with all the openings terran has to harass on that map. So my pvt is still bad but at least ive improved my strategy somewhat.

here are a couple pvt games ive played recently:
http://rapidshare.com/files/294879786/5577_HeeEunT_NrGDragOnP.rep.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/294881792/5596_TearT_NrGDragOnP.rep.html

I hope u guys can enjoy the replays and perhaps gain something from what i have learned




aka DragOn[NaS]
Pokebunny
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States10654 Posts
October 19 2009 03:40 GMT
#2
I'm not quite sure how your 1gate forge exp guards the back door... do you put another cannon on your cliff?
Semipro Terran player | Pokebunny#1710 | twitter.com/Pokebunny | twitch.tv/Pokebunny | facebook.com/PokebunnySC
bakalol
Profile Joined October 2009
United States7 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-19 05:30:54
October 19 2009 03:46 GMT
#3
HOLY MOTHER OF GOD THAT REALLY IS LONG.


User was warned for this post.
I need a quote?
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
October 19 2009 03:51 GMT
#4
Sounds like you listened to Day[9]'s latest podcast haha.

Or your friend did anyway.

Anyhow, congrats on finding a solution to your problem, and good luck with A-
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
PanN
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States2828 Posts
October 19 2009 03:52 GMT
#5
On October 19 2009 12:46 bakalol wrote:
HOLY MOTHER OF GOD THAT REALLY IS LONG.


You won't last long here lol.
We have multiple brackets generated in advance. Relax . (Kennigit) I just simply do not understand how it can be the time to play can be 22nd at 9:30 pm PST / midnight the 23rd at the same time. (GGzerg)
Pengu1n
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States552 Posts
October 19 2009 03:55 GMT
#6
nice run through b- lol ;p
Scarecrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Korea (South)9172 Posts
October 19 2009 03:58 GMT
#7
A 0% pvt record on destination by the time you've reached B rank is more a psychological issue than a strategic one (61% toss favoured for pros and 54% on iccup). I can also think of MANY pro PvZ games in which protoss wins fe'ing from top position, bisu vs jaedong recently in the allstars for one. You need to strike 'impossible' from your vocab.
Yhamm is the god of predictions
frozenkatkiller
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States168 Posts
October 19 2009 04:15 GMT
#8
Great PvZ rep. I will definitely have to try it!
SanguineToss
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada815 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-19 05:31:26
October 19 2009 04:18 GMT
#9
u lost me after 'warning'


User was warned for this post.
PanN
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States2828 Posts
October 19 2009 04:28 GMT
#10
On October 19 2009 13:18 SanguineToss wrote:
u lost me after 'warning'


Must suck to have reading disabilities.
We have multiple brackets generated in advance. Relax . (Kennigit) I just simply do not understand how it can be the time to play can be 22nd at 9:30 pm PST / midnight the 23rd at the same time. (GGzerg)
Zepish
Profile Joined June 2008
Canada160 Posts
October 19 2009 04:45 GMT
#11
On destination's top postion, you can hit the drone mining the mineral patch with a probe from the other side of the mineral. There's a place where you can put your probe and a drone can't mine without being hit from anywhere. I had problem with this before too and it helped me a lot when lzgamer showed that on his stream. Hope that helps you too.
FyRe_DragOn
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada2056 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-19 05:12:38
October 19 2009 05:07 GMT
#12
@ pokebunny: no, the zealots you produce from your 1gate will be enough to cover the ramp against any ling runby, later on i can produce dragoons + range if hes trying to get hydras into my base or if necessary make a cannon, but it will be at a much later time in the game than if i had FEd, and therefore much less economically damaging to me.

@ grobyc: i have listened to most of day9s podcasts, skipped those that involve matchups i dont play etc, and dont remember him saying anything about this. which one was it in?

@ scarecrow: ive played destination at lower levels and won plenty of times, just this past motw ive won almost no pvts until today because i was playing more challenging opponents and pvt is my worst matchup, combined with the fact that i didnt suit my playstyle to the map. It is a psychological issue tho, as i said in the blog i had confidence problems. About pros pvzing, i dont follow the pro scene much these days, but i do not know why they would FE blindly and hope the zerg doesnt take advantage of their weakness. It is (very) possible that Bisu knows something i dont about playing against zergs who do that, but it is also true that many protosses choose to not FE on the top position while FEing normally at the bottom. Pros often do shit that seems really risky to us and pull it off perfectly as if it was standard play.

@Zepish I have more than one replay of attempting to do exactly that, with a probe in my main and a cannon @ my natural and i found that there was a spot around the middle of the ramp where the drone was too far away for both my probe and cannon to hit it. Imo it is impossible, is there a replay of lzgamer showing that it is possible?

@baka fucking read it!! :D
aka DragOn[NaS]
Polar_Nada
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States1548 Posts
October 19 2009 05:27 GMT
#13
lol nr G-DRAGON XD

gjgj. u can make it woohoo1!
[ReD]NaDa and fnaticMSI.SEn fighting~! ::POlar @ UC Irvine::
Snet *
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States3573 Posts
October 19 2009 05:47 GMT
#14
Its crazy seeing you still so active. Keep at it dragon :D
ketomai
Profile Joined June 2007
United States2789 Posts
October 19 2009 06:17 GMT
#15
I really don't PvZ is impossible from the top position. Why not just add another cannon further up that can hit the ramp if you see the drone trying to mine out the back early on. I'd say his use of such an early drone to try to do that is almost equivalent to the cost of the cannon (which doubles as some defense against potential ling all ins or similar as well as mutas later anyways).
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
October 19 2009 06:40 GMT
#16
On October 19 2009 14:07 FyRe_DragOn wrote:
@ pokebunny: no, the zealots you produce from your 1gate will be enough to cover the ramp against any ling runby, later on i can produce dragoons + range if hes trying to get hydras into my base or if necessary make a cannon, but it will be at a much later time in the game than if i had FEd, and therefore much less economically damaging to me.

@ grobyc: i have listened to most of day9s podcasts, skipped those that involve matchups i dont play etc, and dont remember him saying anything about this. which one was it in?

@ scarecrow: ive played destination at lower levels and won plenty of times, just this past motw ive won almost no pvts until today because i was playing more challenging opponents and pvt is my worst matchup, combined with the fact that i didnt suit my playstyle to the map. It is a psychological issue tho, as i said in the blog i had confidence problems. About pros pvzing, i dont follow the pro scene much these days, but i do not know why they would FE blindly and hope the zerg doesnt take advantage of their weakness. It is (very) possible that Bisu knows something i dont about playing against zergs who do that, but it is also true that many protosses choose to not FE on the top position while FEing normally at the bottom. Pros often do shit that seems really risky to us and pull it off perfectly as if it was standard play.

@Zepish I have more than one replay of attempting to do exactly that, with a probe in my main and a cannon @ my natural and i found that there was a spot around the middle of the ramp where the drone was too far away for both my probe and cannon to hit it. Imo it is impossible, is there a replay of lzgamer showing that it is possible?

@baka fucking read it!! :D

The latest one, TvZ on Heartbreak ridge.

Talks about creating and adapting builds based on the map.
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
FyRe_DragOn
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada2056 Posts
October 19 2009 06:53 GMT
#17
On October 19 2009 15:17 ketomai wrote:
I really don't PvZ is impossible from the top position. Why not just add another cannon further up that can hit the ramp if you see the drone trying to mine out the back early on. I'd say his use of such an early drone to try to do that is almost equivalent to the cost of the cannon (which doubles as some defense against potential ling all ins or similar as well as mutas later anyways).


its not just one cannon, its 1 pylon, at least 1 cannon, and enough probes to block the ramp until you have zlots to do it. All this before getting any gas/tech because u need to have enough cannons to secure your front as well. So essentially you are protecting two naturals at once but without the resources from one. Also those cannons are useless later on in the game for anything except protecting that ramp, there would be no reason for zergs to attack it with mutas unless you tried grouping your gateways around around the ramp too.
aka DragOn[NaS]
ketomai
Profile Joined June 2007
United States2789 Posts
October 19 2009 09:10 GMT
#18
Oh whoops I got confused because I always react that way in the bottom position (the initial pylon will still power a cannon that will reach the ramp). I guess you could just glitch a probe through and prevent the drone from mining. If FE on the top position was imbalanced, then none of the pro Protosses would do it, so there has to be some flaw in your reasoning.
nicoaldo
Profile Joined March 2009
Argentina939 Posts
October 19 2009 14:42 GMT
#19
In the rep u posted, u get a 9 gate, i think a normal 10 gate is enough to defend, and provides better economy. Desti has long rush distance and they will most of the time chase your probe.
Maybe u made it faster in case they go for 12 hat, so u can put pressure with that 1 zealot?
FyRe_DragOn
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada2056 Posts
October 19 2009 20:10 GMT
#20
On October 19 2009 23:42 nicoaldo wrote:
In the rep u posted, u get a 9 gate, i think a normal 10 gate is enough to defend, and provides better economy. Desti has long rush distance and they will most of the time chase your probe.
Maybe u made it faster in case they go for 12 hat, so u can put pressure with that 1 zealot?


thats right
aka DragOn[NaS]
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