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For those of you who are really keeping up on things, you'll know that I'm a hardcore FPS player who's recently made my way into the realm of RTS. For those of you who aren't in the know, here's your introduction. I'm a 26 year old guy who was a serious competitive CS player who ended up moving to china to start an LTD company and try something different in life.
I've started to play starcraft a month ago and I love it! It's really something I enjoy, but the real reason I've been learning it is so that I can prepare for SCII. The guys here who I live with have all played casually for many years, but therein lies the problem.
My friend Steve, who is the best of the bunch, could absolutely own me any day of the week with any race he chooses. His unit choice and maneuverability are much much better than mine. The problem is that Steve has never played a true competitive game until today.
I had anticipated his arrival, and had started to study liquiipedia and GOMTV so that I could learn the fundamentals of "good" game play and learn what the game's mechanics were truly all about. The problem is that after one 2v2 game in a local LAN center I could see a ton of problems with Steve's game. He queued many units in the mid game; he never had enough factories/gates/hatcheries, his hotkey setup was subpar at best, but he won. Steve was the best player in our little group.
The problem for me is self evident. I don't want to learn from someone who has fundamental flaws in their game, and doesn't take the time to study the game properly. We had played 2 games on ICCUP and had been thoroughly been beaten in both games.
I have a teacher who is much much better than I am, but is terrible in the grande scheme of things, and has shortcomings that I can see, but he doesn't, solely based on his 7 years of "experience". I know this player can teach me a lot of thing like the mechanics and the fundamentals of gameplay, but I worry that if I develop his habits that I will never even become a D+ player.
What should I do TL.net? Here's a reference replay for you all to consider. It's my friend playing on my ID against a zerg on iCCup.
http://repdepot.net/download.php?type=rep&id=21451&name=[taeyoon] vs mcneebs.rep
 
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Sounds like he has a lot of game sense. Game sense is not something you can learn from liquipedia or guides, proper macro is. So why don't you use him to teach you game sense, while you practice your build order and hotkey setups from liquipedia. You don't need a guy to tell you a proper BO.
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First of all, if you are playing SC to prepare for SCII, then it won't work, because those two games are going to be completely different IMO.
I watched the replay, and... well, you played rather bad. Your build was very, very weird 1Rax, then delayed Factory, then EBay with no Turrets - and still, you never got 2Rax, not to mention static AA defence. Basically, when Mutas came it was already GG.
Conclusion 1: Stick to Mechanics. Learn 2-3 builds and try to execute them while keeping your cash low (at least at early game). This is the key: if you are at 3 min of game, and your money count hits 600 mins+ 300 gas, then something is already wrong. Speed is essential: with better execution you'd have +2Rax and Starport at the end of this game.
I assume you had no idea that Mutas are coming - otherwise you'd definetely prepare better.
Conclusion 2: Get 2nd scout after your 1st falls. With you build (1Rax + Factory), you should probably go for Vulture and try some harassement in Zerg natural. Or just send another SCV and you'll figure out what's coming. Your opponent went 3Hatch Muta, which means you badly needed Turrets + ScVessel tech: but you couldn't do this since you never knew what Zerg unleashed.
Your friend play a standard intermediate-level game, and it was more that enough to beat you.
Conclusion 3: Forget about how bad he is compared to decent gamers. If he can beat you after roughly even game, then he is good opponent to play with. If he owns you hard, find someone just a bit better than you and play him again, again, again, till you get better. There is simply no other way than improving yourself step-by-step: even if you're going to develop bad habits on the way, it'll be OK as long as you feel you are progressing.
Your APM: 77, Zerg APM: 192.
Conclusion 4: Try to speed up a little. Memorize hotkeys and use them constantly. After just few days of training, you should have no trouble with getting 100 APM without spamming or making inaccuracies. Your experience with CS should help you here a lot.
Good Luck!
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On September 23 2009 05:02 levelzx wrote:
First of all, if you are playing SC to prepare for SCII, then it won't work, because those two games are going to be completely different IMO.
I watched the replay, and... well, you played rather bad. Your build was very, very weird 1Rax, then delayed Factory, then EBay with no Turrets - and still, you never got 2Rax, not to mention static AA defence. Basically, when Mutas came it was already GG.
Conclusion 1: Stick to Mechanics. Learn 2-3 builds and try to execute them while keeping your cash low (at least at early game). This is the key: if you are at 3 min of game, and your money count hits 600 mins+ 300 gas, then something is already wrong. Speed is essential: with better execution you'd have +2Rax and Starport at the end of this game.
I assume you had no idea that Mutas are coming - otherwise you'd definetely prepare better.
Conclusion 2: Get 2nd scout after your 1st falls. With you build (1Rax + Factory), you should probably go for Vulture and try some harassement in Zerg natural. Or just send another SCV and you'll figure out what's coming. Your opponent went 3Hatch Muta, which means you badly needed Turrets + ScVessel tech: but you couldn't do this since you never knew what Zerg unleashed.
Your friend play a standard intermediate-level game, and it was more that enough to beat you.
Conclusion 3: Forget about how bad he is compared to decent gamers. If he can beat you after roughly even game, then he is good opponent to play with. If he owns you hard, find someone just a bit better than you and play him again, again, again, till you get better. There is simply no other way than improving yourself step-by-step: even if you're going to develop bad habits on the way, it'll be OK as long as you feel you are progressing.
Your APM: 77, Zerg APM: 192.
Conclusion 4: Try to speed up a little. Memorize hotkeys and use them constantly. After just few days of training, you should have no trouble with getting 100 APM without spamming or making inaccuracies. Your experience with CS should help you here a lot.
Good Luck!
Wait a minute, isn't the terran his friend and the zerg just some random person on iccup?
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Learning StarCraft is like learning anything else.
Study the best (watch FPVODs)
Find your own weaknesses (Watch your own replays)
Study your opponents (find their weaknesses)
Study the strategy (read everything about it you can)
Play.
Don't worry about doing everything right all at once. Focus on an aspect of your gameplay each game, as many as you can handle, whichever ones seem most pertinent, and iron them out till you're happy with them and can move on to another aspect of your game.
Don't worry about your rank or losing games either. This is the biggest problem with players trying to learn on ladders. They get scared and don't know if they really want to play the next game after they've just won. Especially when you've just gone up a rank, you might be scared of losing that rank immediately. You have to just forget about all that and ask yourself if you feel like you're improving every game, regardless of whether you win or lose (which will vary depending on how well your opponent plays). Your rank is just a rough indicator of where you are, not a badge you should worry about losing or earning.
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On September 23 2009 05:07 ezchiiz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2009 05:02 levelzx wrote:
First of all, if you are playing SC to prepare for SCII, then it won't work, because those two games are going to be completely different IMO.
I watched the replay, and... well, you played rather bad. Your build was very, very weird 1Rax, then delayed Factory, then EBay with no Turrets - and still, you never got 2Rax, not to mention static AA defence. Basically, when Mutas came it was already GG.
Conclusion 1: Stick to Mechanics. Learn 2-3 builds and try to execute them while keeping your cash low (at least at early game). This is the key: if you are at 3 min of game, and your money count hits 600 mins+ 300 gas, then something is already wrong. Speed is essential: with better execution you'd have +2Rax and Starport at the end of this game.
I assume you had no idea that Mutas are coming - otherwise you'd definetely prepare better.
Conclusion 2: Get 2nd scout after your 1st falls. With you build (1Rax + Factory), you should probably go for Vulture and try some harassement in Zerg natural. Or just send another SCV and you'll figure out what's coming. Your opponent went 3Hatch Muta, which means you badly needed Turrets + ScVessel tech: but you couldn't do this since you never knew what Zerg unleashed.
Your friend play a standard intermediate-level game, and it was more that enough to beat you.
Conclusion 3: Forget about how bad he is compared to decent gamers. If he can beat you after roughly even game, then he is good opponent to play with. If he owns you hard, find someone just a bit better than you and play him again, again, again, till you get better. There is simply no other way than improving yourself step-by-step: even if you're going to develop bad habits on the way, it'll be OK as long as you feel you are progressing.
Your APM: 77, Zerg APM: 192.
Conclusion 4: Try to speed up a little. Memorize hotkeys and use them constantly. After just few days of training, you should have no trouble with getting 100 APM without spamming or making inaccuracies. Your experience with CS should help you here a lot.
Good Luck! Wait a minute, isn't the terran his friend and the zerg just some random person on iccup?
Ohh, I owned myself. Well, forgive me that, but your friend is bad. You should have no problem with beating him after some ICCup training. And Zerg played quite nice, nonetheless.
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I recommend searching ums training and memorizing some build orders first. simply to establish mechanical skill with the most basic knowledge. Once you get your speed up and learn build orders it comes down to practice, observing (vods/replays/strategy posts), and self analysis.
edit: make sure you play against better and better people as you progress noob-bashing won't get you anywhere.
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The thing about learning build orders is that won't help for shit in SC2. Getting good mechanics WILL help. So really you want to focus on mechanics and focus on your overall ability to play a tactical game. Understand how to use terrain to your advantage. Understand what makes good micro. And get good with multitasking.
Just because your friend sucks doesn't mean you can't learn from him. If I were you, I wouldn't bother to be vocal about his sucking either, because that will just cause a rift between you and him to develop for no reason. Practice a lot and improve. And then crush him.
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
even if you get like a B rank player to teach you he's going to teach you bad habits. as long as you are able to improve your own play and not just mindlessly copy what someone else does or tells you to do there's no problem at all in learning from a 'better than you but not good' player.
also as a new player I hope you realise that the wast majority of people who play starcraft have been playing for years and it takes a lot of playing to get anywhere near decent.
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You should be able to surpass your friend rather soon, there is not much he can teach you that you cannot learn from replays, VODs, and the helpful posts in this forum and Liquipedia. You can practice with him, but theres no reason for you to try to learn from him and his limited mechanics/game knowledge.
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When it comes to strategy, I don't see a problem with using trial and error and revising your game as you go. It can help you understand why some things work and some don't.
With more mechanical stuff like hotkeys, it might be more important to get good habits from the start because it's such a bother to change it later on. Although as a beginner you need to get a feel for what works for you first anyway.
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work on your mechanics, just practice a build order over and over against no one (start a 1v1 custom game with a computer in it, kick the computer as soon as the countdown in the lobby begins) until your BO is flawless. You want to get your basic build down to the point that if some random SC nerd was watching you play for the first 3 minutes or so, they couldn't tell if the game was being played by a pro or by you. Then just extend this concept to the rest of the game. Never let your minerals/gas build-up, always be constantly building units, always be scouting and have an idea of what the other player is doing, always know how to react to different strategies, etc.
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EPT
