• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:44
CEST 19:44
KST 02:44
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting9[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4)5
Community News
BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET4Weekly Cups (Oct 6-12): Four star herO85.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8)80Weekly Cups (Sept 29-Oct 5): MaxPax triples up3PartinG joins SteamerZone, returns to SC2 competition32
StarCraft 2
General
Stellar Fest: StarCraft II returns to Canada The New Patch Killed Mech! herO Talks: Poor Performance at EWC and more... TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting Revisiting the game after10 years and wow it's bad
Tourneys
$1,200 WardiTV October (Oct 21st-31st) WardiTV Mondays RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales! SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia Crank Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment Mutation # 493 Quick Killers Mutation # 492 Get Out More
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET Question regarding recent ASL Bisu vs Larva game [Interview] Grrrr... 2024 Pros React To: BarrackS + FlaSh Coaching vs SnOw
Tourneys
[ASL20] Semifinal B SC4ALL $1,500 Open Bracket LAN [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Semifinal A
Strategy
BW - ajfirecracker Strategy & Training Relatively freeroll strategies Current Meta Siegecraft - a new perspective
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Dawn of War IV Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640} TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Men's Fashion Thread Sex and weight loss
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Series you have seen recently... Movie Discussion!
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The Heroism of Pepe the Fro…
Peanutsc
Rocket League: Traits, Abili…
TrAiDoS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1669 users

[D]I posted this in IRC

Blogs > Monokeros
Post a Reply
Monokeros
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States2493 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-04 06:09:33
September 04 2009 05:44 GMT
#1
But NO ONE CARED so I'm posting it here!
+ Show Spoiler +

[22:39] <Monokeros> FUN FACT
[22:40] <Monokeros> at pro levels a toss only loses to a T if he has A) a build order loss b) the terran harrasses him for a good 25minutes c)he sucks at macro and is a B team player sent out as fodder.
[22:40] <Monokeros> I have yet to see a game were a GOOD toss lost to a GOOD t aka where it A) wasnt a build order loss B) was an under 20mn game where the terran out-macroed the P
[22:40] <Monokeros> B )
[22:40] <Monokeros> like
[22:41] <Monokeros> i was like oh shi- iris beat bisu in 8mn iris must be an awesome TvPer
[22:41] <Monokeros> bisu went fucking
[22:41] <Monokeros> 1gate range into expo off of 4 goons
[22:41] <Monokeros> VS TWO FACT
[22:41] <Monokeros> LIKE NO SHIT YOURE GOING TO LOSE
[22:41] <Monokeros> and then it took
[22:42] <Monokeros> iris 30 minutes for him to recover from the disadvantage from bisu 2gaterange into reaver harras
[22:42] <Monokeros> even though he played a VERY safe siege expand
[22:42] <Monokeros> he was never able to fully recover until it was WAY past mid-game
[22:42] <Monokeros> so this doesnt apply to me because I'm not playing people at this level
[22:42] <Monokeros> but its really annoying where I can't see a 'simple' way of beating a toss
[22:43] <Monokeros> because at higher levels its all harras and razor's edge for terran, and while im not saying toss is EASIER their risk reward seems a little skewed.


inb4 1a2a3a4a >_>

EDIT: SOMEONE REPLIED ZOMG
+ Show Spoiler +

[22:45] <Tumpys> protoss is supposed to be stronger...its in the storyline
[22:45] <Tumpys> screw balance..
[22:45] <Monokeros> true story.


Seriously though, I tried to find some good TvP strategies by first looking at flash's TvP games, then I saw they were vs Sangho or yoon and each time it was the tosses attempt at some risky harras which they fail at and OBVIOUSLY they failed at the harras since they aren't dragons flash now rolls over them.

Being frustrated by this I thought to myself who else is a good terran? Fantasy? He does dropship play I in no way can mimic that and in trying to improve it I would be driving my already terrible macro into the ground. So who else? Iris? Well Iris never raged his way to a win vs a well-known toss. Most of the games are 20mn+ struggles where he starts off with a disadvantage, omg Avalon MSL vs Bisu on Byzantium (the 30mn one) makes me want to be a CJ Entusman, also makes me hate Pikachu. So who else? Leta? I haven't checked but fun fact Flash has 66% win rate, leta and Iris? theyre in the 50's, and fantasy has 61.82 so hes hanging on the edge. What other terrans are there? go.go's 6rax vs Bisu? Upmagic's 44%? FBH? lol

Maybe I'm being unfair comparing terrans to the Revolutionist and other upper-tier toss, I just felt like raging thats all and Blogs are a wonderful place to do it :D

Edit: So I found this at first I thought AWESOME game Light beating bisu in TWELVE minutes on ANDROMEDA? Man Light must've been chugging the gatorade down, anyways bad jokes aside. He SCOUTS bisu's DT drop after defending a 3 zeal 2 goon harras at his ramp with some clever scv hold position + rax over the scv so the AI gets all dumb. So what I learned from that game is on Andromeda Bisu can't hold his ramp to save his life. IE Bisu vs Jaedong R.5 in GOM 1 vs 2 Special Match (I believe)

*
Keep the Dream Alive twitch.tv/monokerros
Zapdos_Smithh
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Canada2620 Posts
September 04 2009 06:44 GMT
#2
Interesting.
Xiberia
Profile Joined September 2007
Sweden634 Posts
September 04 2009 07:04 GMT
#3
WORD
Ver
Profile Joined October 2008
United States2186 Posts
September 04 2009 07:12 GMT
#4
Sadly nobody besides Flash and Fantasy is any good at TvP Flash hasn't played any TvP series vs anyone good besides Bisu for awhile and his form has been shaky for quite some time (i,e he was pretty mediocre in the last series). Your best bet to learn from him is to look through some of his older games. Also, seeing him just dismember non-top tosses is always a sight to behold though and a pretty good learning experience.

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/28925_Flash_vs_Stork (Tau Cross; highly recommended recent game)

http://www.gomtv.net/videos/538 (Bisu Flash Medusa)

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/8981_Bisu_vs_Flash (Katrina)

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9185_Flash_vs_free

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9243_Flash_vs_JangBi

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9006_Bisu_vs_Flash (Andromeda)

Most of these involve P early harass. Unfortunately it is hard to find a lot of top tosses vs Flash/Fantasy where the toss doesn't do some early harass build.

Overall for your play use either Flash or Fantasy's strategies. Fantasy's build is probably stronger as of now as it was only introduced back in January in oov's WL matches, while Flash's has been out for over a year and tosses are much more prepared for it. It is as you noted much more mechanically intensive, but I've found that Flash's is a lot lot harder than it looks even though it favors the less mechanically strong players.

The only other strong, consistent alternative is the Hiya-style 3 base timing allin build, where you take 3 bases off of 1-2 facts then quickly mass up to 8-10 facts and push. Works great against overly greedy tosses on certain maps if you don't like harass styles.
Liquipedia
lazz
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Australia3119 Posts
September 04 2009 08:45 GMT
#5
yeah guys protoss is ridiculously over powered i dont get why everyone doesnt just play as protoss..
LaLuSh
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden2358 Posts
September 04 2009 11:10 GMT
#6
What you're asking for is basically:

Give me a VOD where a terran 1fac expands, doesn't do a timing push, but still wins in less than 15-20 minutes.

That's like saying:

Give me a VOD of a protoss who 14 nexuses, isn't aggressive, techs up and upgrades fast to either arbiters/carriers and still wins decisively in less than 15 minutes.


In short -- you're stupid.

Take the game Flash won vs Bisu in the wcg qualifiers as an example. You'd just lable it a "build order win" and disregard it because you've already got your mind set.

The truth is, terran will rarely/never win a game in less than 10 minutes when 1fac expanding.

Just as protoss will rarely or never win a PvT in less than 10 minutes when 1gate expanding.

That's the nature of starcraft. Now just shut up and quit whining.

Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Safe House 2
17:00
Round Robin
ZombieGrub402
TKL 148
CranKy Ducklings71
EnkiAlexander 32
3DClanTV 28
LiquipediaDiscussion
Online Event
14:00
Waterfall Cup #1
MindelVK74
BRAT_OK 50
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Clem_sc2 792
ZombieGrub402
TKL 148
MindelVK 74
BRAT_OK 50
Codebar 22
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 46546
Calm 4431
Hyuk 3626
Rain 3513
Bisu 1673
Horang2 762
firebathero 311
Shuttle 250
Hyun 135
Backho 100
[ Show more ]
Dewaltoss 76
Barracks 75
Rock 37
soO 29
Sacsri 20
ZZZero.O 0
Dota 2
Gorgc7637
qojqva2278
LuMiX0
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu420
Khaldor334
Other Games
B2W.Neo773
Beastyqt562
Skadoodle498
Mew2King157
KnowMe126
Liquid`VortiX94
ToD59
Trikslyr47
rGuardiaN23
fpsfer 1
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1436
BasetradeTV38
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 22 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• printf 27
• Adnapsc2 4
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• Airneanach27
• blackmanpl 21
• Michael_bg 6
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 2993
• Ler88
League of Legends
• Nemesis7043
• Jankos3931
• HappyZerGling137
Other Games
• imaqtpie1185
• Shiphtur234
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
16h 16m
Safe House 2
23h 16m
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 22h
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
4 days
The PondCast
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
Online Event
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
6 days
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS2
WardiTV TLMC #15
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
EC S1
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
RSL Offline Finals
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
CranK Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.