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[D]I posted this in IRC

Blogs > Monokeros
Post a Reply
Monokeros
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States2493 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-04 06:09:33
September 04 2009 05:44 GMT
#1
But NO ONE CARED so I'm posting it here!
+ Show Spoiler +

[22:39] <Monokeros> FUN FACT
[22:40] <Monokeros> at pro levels a toss only loses to a T if he has A) a build order loss b) the terran harrasses him for a good 25minutes c)he sucks at macro and is a B team player sent out as fodder.
[22:40] <Monokeros> I have yet to see a game were a GOOD toss lost to a GOOD t aka where it A) wasnt a build order loss B) was an under 20mn game where the terran out-macroed the P
[22:40] <Monokeros> B )
[22:40] <Monokeros> like
[22:41] <Monokeros> i was like oh shi- iris beat bisu in 8mn iris must be an awesome TvPer
[22:41] <Monokeros> bisu went fucking
[22:41] <Monokeros> 1gate range into expo off of 4 goons
[22:41] <Monokeros> VS TWO FACT
[22:41] <Monokeros> LIKE NO SHIT YOURE GOING TO LOSE
[22:41] <Monokeros> and then it took
[22:42] <Monokeros> iris 30 minutes for him to recover from the disadvantage from bisu 2gaterange into reaver harras
[22:42] <Monokeros> even though he played a VERY safe siege expand
[22:42] <Monokeros> he was never able to fully recover until it was WAY past mid-game
[22:42] <Monokeros> so this doesnt apply to me because I'm not playing people at this level
[22:42] <Monokeros> but its really annoying where I can't see a 'simple' way of beating a toss
[22:43] <Monokeros> because at higher levels its all harras and razor's edge for terran, and while im not saying toss is EASIER their risk reward seems a little skewed.


inb4 1a2a3a4a >_>

EDIT: SOMEONE REPLIED ZOMG
+ Show Spoiler +

[22:45] <Tumpys> protoss is supposed to be stronger...its in the storyline
[22:45] <Tumpys> screw balance..
[22:45] <Monokeros> true story.


Seriously though, I tried to find some good TvP strategies by first looking at flash's TvP games, then I saw they were vs Sangho or yoon and each time it was the tosses attempt at some risky harras which they fail at and OBVIOUSLY they failed at the harras since they aren't dragons flash now rolls over them.

Being frustrated by this I thought to myself who else is a good terran? Fantasy? He does dropship play I in no way can mimic that and in trying to improve it I would be driving my already terrible macro into the ground. So who else? Iris? Well Iris never raged his way to a win vs a well-known toss. Most of the games are 20mn+ struggles where he starts off with a disadvantage, omg Avalon MSL vs Bisu on Byzantium (the 30mn one) makes me want to be a CJ Entusman, also makes me hate Pikachu. So who else? Leta? I haven't checked but fun fact Flash has 66% win rate, leta and Iris? theyre in the 50's, and fantasy has 61.82 so hes hanging on the edge. What other terrans are there? go.go's 6rax vs Bisu? Upmagic's 44%? FBH? lol

Maybe I'm being unfair comparing terrans to the Revolutionist and other upper-tier toss, I just felt like raging thats all and Blogs are a wonderful place to do it :D

Edit: So I found this at first I thought AWESOME game Light beating bisu in TWELVE minutes on ANDROMEDA? Man Light must've been chugging the gatorade down, anyways bad jokes aside. He SCOUTS bisu's DT drop after defending a 3 zeal 2 goon harras at his ramp with some clever scv hold position + rax over the scv so the AI gets all dumb. So what I learned from that game is on Andromeda Bisu can't hold his ramp to save his life. IE Bisu vs Jaedong R.5 in GOM 1 vs 2 Special Match (I believe)

*
Keep the Dream Alive twitch.tv/monokerros
Zapdos_Smithh
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Canada2620 Posts
September 04 2009 06:44 GMT
#2
Interesting.
Xiberia
Profile Joined September 2007
Sweden634 Posts
September 04 2009 07:04 GMT
#3
WORD
Ver
Profile Joined October 2008
United States2186 Posts
September 04 2009 07:12 GMT
#4
Sadly nobody besides Flash and Fantasy is any good at TvP Flash hasn't played any TvP series vs anyone good besides Bisu for awhile and his form has been shaky for quite some time (i,e he was pretty mediocre in the last series). Your best bet to learn from him is to look through some of his older games. Also, seeing him just dismember non-top tosses is always a sight to behold though and a pretty good learning experience.

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/28925_Flash_vs_Stork (Tau Cross; highly recommended recent game)

http://www.gomtv.net/videos/538 (Bisu Flash Medusa)

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/8981_Bisu_vs_Flash (Katrina)

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9185_Flash_vs_free

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9243_Flash_vs_JangBi

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9006_Bisu_vs_Flash (Andromeda)

Most of these involve P early harass. Unfortunately it is hard to find a lot of top tosses vs Flash/Fantasy where the toss doesn't do some early harass build.

Overall for your play use either Flash or Fantasy's strategies. Fantasy's build is probably stronger as of now as it was only introduced back in January in oov's WL matches, while Flash's has been out for over a year and tosses are much more prepared for it. It is as you noted much more mechanically intensive, but I've found that Flash's is a lot lot harder than it looks even though it favors the less mechanically strong players.

The only other strong, consistent alternative is the Hiya-style 3 base timing allin build, where you take 3 bases off of 1-2 facts then quickly mass up to 8-10 facts and push. Works great against overly greedy tosses on certain maps if you don't like harass styles.
Liquipedia
lazz
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Australia3119 Posts
September 04 2009 08:45 GMT
#5
yeah guys protoss is ridiculously over powered i dont get why everyone doesnt just play as protoss..
LaLuSh
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden2358 Posts
September 04 2009 11:10 GMT
#6
What you're asking for is basically:

Give me a VOD where a terran 1fac expands, doesn't do a timing push, but still wins in less than 15-20 minutes.

That's like saying:

Give me a VOD of a protoss who 14 nexuses, isn't aggressive, techs up and upgrades fast to either arbiters/carriers and still wins decisively in less than 15 minutes.


In short -- you're stupid.

Take the game Flash won vs Bisu in the wcg qualifiers as an example. You'd just lable it a "build order win" and disregard it because you've already got your mind set.

The truth is, terran will rarely/never win a game in less than 10 minutes when 1fac expanding.

Just as protoss will rarely or never win a PvT in less than 10 minutes when 1gate expanding.

That's the nature of starcraft. Now just shut up and quit whining.

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