• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 21:01
CET 03:01
KST 11:01
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !8Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win4Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15
StarCraft 2
General
When will we find out if there are more tournament ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career ! Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump
Tourneys
Winter Warp Gate Amateur Showdown #1: Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14! Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress
Brood War
General
How Rain Became ProGamer in Just 3 Months BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle screp: Command line app to parse SC rep files [BSL21] RO8 Bracket & Prediction Contest
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] WB SEMIFINALS - Saturday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO8 - Day 2 - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Game Theory for Starcraft Current Meta Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Mechabellum Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread PC Games Sales Thread Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
The (Hidden) Drug Problem in…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1023 users

[D]I posted this in IRC

Blogs > Monokeros
Post a Reply
Monokeros
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States2493 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-04 06:09:33
September 04 2009 05:44 GMT
#1
But NO ONE CARED so I'm posting it here!
+ Show Spoiler +

[22:39] <Monokeros> FUN FACT
[22:40] <Monokeros> at pro levels a toss only loses to a T if he has A) a build order loss b) the terran harrasses him for a good 25minutes c)he sucks at macro and is a B team player sent out as fodder.
[22:40] <Monokeros> I have yet to see a game were a GOOD toss lost to a GOOD t aka where it A) wasnt a build order loss B) was an under 20mn game where the terran out-macroed the P
[22:40] <Monokeros> B )
[22:40] <Monokeros> like
[22:41] <Monokeros> i was like oh shi- iris beat bisu in 8mn iris must be an awesome TvPer
[22:41] <Monokeros> bisu went fucking
[22:41] <Monokeros> 1gate range into expo off of 4 goons
[22:41] <Monokeros> VS TWO FACT
[22:41] <Monokeros> LIKE NO SHIT YOURE GOING TO LOSE
[22:41] <Monokeros> and then it took
[22:42] <Monokeros> iris 30 minutes for him to recover from the disadvantage from bisu 2gaterange into reaver harras
[22:42] <Monokeros> even though he played a VERY safe siege expand
[22:42] <Monokeros> he was never able to fully recover until it was WAY past mid-game
[22:42] <Monokeros> so this doesnt apply to me because I'm not playing people at this level
[22:42] <Monokeros> but its really annoying where I can't see a 'simple' way of beating a toss
[22:43] <Monokeros> because at higher levels its all harras and razor's edge for terran, and while im not saying toss is EASIER their risk reward seems a little skewed.


inb4 1a2a3a4a >_>

EDIT: SOMEONE REPLIED ZOMG
+ Show Spoiler +

[22:45] <Tumpys> protoss is supposed to be stronger...its in the storyline
[22:45] <Tumpys> screw balance..
[22:45] <Monokeros> true story.


Seriously though, I tried to find some good TvP strategies by first looking at flash's TvP games, then I saw they were vs Sangho or yoon and each time it was the tosses attempt at some risky harras which they fail at and OBVIOUSLY they failed at the harras since they aren't dragons flash now rolls over them.

Being frustrated by this I thought to myself who else is a good terran? Fantasy? He does dropship play I in no way can mimic that and in trying to improve it I would be driving my already terrible macro into the ground. So who else? Iris? Well Iris never raged his way to a win vs a well-known toss. Most of the games are 20mn+ struggles where he starts off with a disadvantage, omg Avalon MSL vs Bisu on Byzantium (the 30mn one) makes me want to be a CJ Entusman, also makes me hate Pikachu. So who else? Leta? I haven't checked but fun fact Flash has 66% win rate, leta and Iris? theyre in the 50's, and fantasy has 61.82 so hes hanging on the edge. What other terrans are there? go.go's 6rax vs Bisu? Upmagic's 44%? FBH? lol

Maybe I'm being unfair comparing terrans to the Revolutionist and other upper-tier toss, I just felt like raging thats all and Blogs are a wonderful place to do it :D

Edit: So I found this at first I thought AWESOME game Light beating bisu in TWELVE minutes on ANDROMEDA? Man Light must've been chugging the gatorade down, anyways bad jokes aside. He SCOUTS bisu's DT drop after defending a 3 zeal 2 goon harras at his ramp with some clever scv hold position + rax over the scv so the AI gets all dumb. So what I learned from that game is on Andromeda Bisu can't hold his ramp to save his life. IE Bisu vs Jaedong R.5 in GOM 1 vs 2 Special Match (I believe)

*
Keep the Dream Alive twitch.tv/monokerros
Zapdos_Smithh
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Canada2620 Posts
September 04 2009 06:44 GMT
#2
Interesting.
Xiberia
Profile Joined September 2007
Sweden634 Posts
September 04 2009 07:04 GMT
#3
WORD
Ver
Profile Joined October 2008
United States2186 Posts
September 04 2009 07:12 GMT
#4
Sadly nobody besides Flash and Fantasy is any good at TvP Flash hasn't played any TvP series vs anyone good besides Bisu for awhile and his form has been shaky for quite some time (i,e he was pretty mediocre in the last series). Your best bet to learn from him is to look through some of his older games. Also, seeing him just dismember non-top tosses is always a sight to behold though and a pretty good learning experience.

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/28925_Flash_vs_Stork (Tau Cross; highly recommended recent game)

http://www.gomtv.net/videos/538 (Bisu Flash Medusa)

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/8981_Bisu_vs_Flash (Katrina)

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9185_Flash_vs_free

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9243_Flash_vs_JangBi

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9006_Bisu_vs_Flash (Andromeda)

Most of these involve P early harass. Unfortunately it is hard to find a lot of top tosses vs Flash/Fantasy where the toss doesn't do some early harass build.

Overall for your play use either Flash or Fantasy's strategies. Fantasy's build is probably stronger as of now as it was only introduced back in January in oov's WL matches, while Flash's has been out for over a year and tosses are much more prepared for it. It is as you noted much more mechanically intensive, but I've found that Flash's is a lot lot harder than it looks even though it favors the less mechanically strong players.

The only other strong, consistent alternative is the Hiya-style 3 base timing allin build, where you take 3 bases off of 1-2 facts then quickly mass up to 8-10 facts and push. Works great against overly greedy tosses on certain maps if you don't like harass styles.
Liquipedia
lazz
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Australia3119 Posts
September 04 2009 08:45 GMT
#5
yeah guys protoss is ridiculously over powered i dont get why everyone doesnt just play as protoss..
LaLuSh
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden2358 Posts
September 04 2009 11:10 GMT
#6
What you're asking for is basically:

Give me a VOD where a terran 1fac expands, doesn't do a timing push, but still wins in less than 15-20 minutes.

That's like saying:

Give me a VOD of a protoss who 14 nexuses, isn't aggressive, techs up and upgrades fast to either arbiters/carriers and still wins decisively in less than 15 minutes.


In short -- you're stupid.

Take the game Flash won vs Bisu in the wcg qualifiers as an example. You'd just lable it a "build order win" and disregard it because you've already got your mind set.

The truth is, terran will rarely/never win a game in less than 10 minutes when 1fac expanding.

Just as protoss will rarely or never win a PvT in less than 10 minutes when 1gate expanding.

That's the nature of starcraft. Now just shut up and quit whining.

Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
The PiG Daily
21:00
Best Games of Starcraft
SHIN vs ByuN
Reynor vs Classic
TBD vs herO
Maru vs SHIN
TBD vs Classic
PiGStarcraft676
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft676
StarCraft: Brood War
Shuttle 108
NaDa 49
GoRush 20
Mong 16
Hm[arnc] 11
Free 0
Counter-Strike
summit1g7557
Coldzera 1211
taco 138
Other Games
JimRising 364
ViBE144
Trikslyr67
PPMD32
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1071
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 102
• davetesta43
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki10
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22681
League of Legends
• Doublelift4260
Other Games
• Scarra1403
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
7h 59m
WardiTV 2025
8h 59m
Spirit vs Cure
Reynor vs MaxPax
SHIN vs TBD
Solar vs herO
Classic vs TBD
SC Evo League
10h 29m
Ladder Legends
16h 59m
BSL 21
17h 59m
Sziky vs Dewalt
eOnzErG vs Cross
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 7h
Ladder Legends
1d 14h
BSL 21
1d 17h
StRyKeR vs TBD
Bonyth vs TBD
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
2 days
[ Show More ]
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
ByuN vs Solar
Clem vs Classic
Cure vs herO
Reynor vs MaxPax
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS3
RSL Offline Finals
Kuram Kup

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
CSL Season 19: Qualifier 1
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

CSL Season 19: Qualifier 2
CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
OSC Championship Season 13
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.