• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 10:20
CEST 16:20
KST 23:20
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!9[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Evil Geniuses - shutting down6ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier3Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins1[$1250] International ShieldBattery League52Weekly Cups (October 5-11): Farewell to 5.0.164
StarCraft 2
General
How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR? Evil Geniuses - shutting down No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins Server Blocker
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 ScienceCraft (October 24-25) - Live Event ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier WORTEX Challenger Series — Open SC2 LAN in Budapes
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[G] How to playtest arcade maps [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 548 Shining Bright The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 547 Temple Of Terror Mutation # 546 Catch the Train
Brood War
General
Do we even care about balance? SCHNAIL now supports Remastered BW General Discussion Rollback Netcode in Brood War SOOP Announces New Women's Monthly Tournament
Tourneys
[$1250] International ShieldBattery League [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL23] RO24 Group Stage [ASL22] Grand Finals
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Simple Questions, Simple Answers Replay Review Process - What do you do?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Armies of Exigo - YesYes? Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Chess Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
How Much Genes Contribute to…
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8319 users

[D]I posted this in IRC

Blogs > Monokeros
Post a Reply
Monokeros
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States2493 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-09-04 06:09:33
September 04 2009 05:44 GMT
#1
But NO ONE CARED so I'm posting it here!
+ Show Spoiler +

[22:39] <Monokeros> FUN FACT
[22:40] <Monokeros> at pro levels a toss only loses to a T if he has A) a build order loss b) the terran harrasses him for a good 25minutes c)he sucks at macro and is a B team player sent out as fodder.
[22:40] <Monokeros> I have yet to see a game were a GOOD toss lost to a GOOD t aka where it A) wasnt a build order loss B) was an under 20mn game where the terran out-macroed the P
[22:40] <Monokeros> B )
[22:40] <Monokeros> like
[22:41] <Monokeros> i was like oh shi- iris beat bisu in 8mn iris must be an awesome TvPer
[22:41] <Monokeros> bisu went fucking
[22:41] <Monokeros> 1gate range into expo off of 4 goons
[22:41] <Monokeros> VS TWO FACT
[22:41] <Monokeros> LIKE NO SHIT YOURE GOING TO LOSE
[22:41] <Monokeros> and then it took
[22:42] <Monokeros> iris 30 minutes for him to recover from the disadvantage from bisu 2gaterange into reaver harras
[22:42] <Monokeros> even though he played a VERY safe siege expand
[22:42] <Monokeros> he was never able to fully recover until it was WAY past mid-game
[22:42] <Monokeros> so this doesnt apply to me because I'm not playing people at this level
[22:42] <Monokeros> but its really annoying where I can't see a 'simple' way of beating a toss
[22:43] <Monokeros> because at higher levels its all harras and razor's edge for terran, and while im not saying toss is EASIER their risk reward seems a little skewed.


inb4 1a2a3a4a >_>

EDIT: SOMEONE REPLIED ZOMG
+ Show Spoiler +

[22:45] <Tumpys> protoss is supposed to be stronger...its in the storyline
[22:45] <Tumpys> screw balance..
[22:45] <Monokeros> true story.


Seriously though, I tried to find some good TvP strategies by first looking at flash's TvP games, then I saw they were vs Sangho or yoon and each time it was the tosses attempt at some risky harras which they fail at and OBVIOUSLY they failed at the harras since they aren't dragons flash now rolls over them.

Being frustrated by this I thought to myself who else is a good terran? Fantasy? He does dropship play I in no way can mimic that and in trying to improve it I would be driving my already terrible macro into the ground. So who else? Iris? Well Iris never raged his way to a win vs a well-known toss. Most of the games are 20mn+ struggles where he starts off with a disadvantage, omg Avalon MSL vs Bisu on Byzantium (the 30mn one) makes me want to be a CJ Entusman, also makes me hate Pikachu. So who else? Leta? I haven't checked but fun fact Flash has 66% win rate, leta and Iris? theyre in the 50's, and fantasy has 61.82 so hes hanging on the edge. What other terrans are there? go.go's 6rax vs Bisu? Upmagic's 44%? FBH? lol

Maybe I'm being unfair comparing terrans to the Revolutionist and other upper-tier toss, I just felt like raging thats all and Blogs are a wonderful place to do it :D

Edit: So I found this at first I thought AWESOME game Light beating bisu in TWELVE minutes on ANDROMEDA? Man Light must've been chugging the gatorade down, anyways bad jokes aside. He SCOUTS bisu's DT drop after defending a 3 zeal 2 goon harras at his ramp with some clever scv hold position + rax over the scv so the AI gets all dumb. So what I learned from that game is on Andromeda Bisu can't hold his ramp to save his life. IE Bisu vs Jaedong R.5 in GOM 1 vs 2 Special Match (I believe)

*
Keep the Dream Alive twitch.tv/monokerros
Zapdos_Smithh
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Canada2620 Posts
September 04 2009 06:44 GMT
#2
Interesting.
Xiberia
Profile Joined September 2007
Sweden634 Posts
September 04 2009 07:04 GMT
#3
WORD
Ver
Profile Joined October 2008
United States2186 Posts
September 04 2009 07:12 GMT
#4
Sadly nobody besides Flash and Fantasy is any good at TvP Flash hasn't played any TvP series vs anyone good besides Bisu for awhile and his form has been shaky for quite some time (i,e he was pretty mediocre in the last series). Your best bet to learn from him is to look through some of his older games. Also, seeing him just dismember non-top tosses is always a sight to behold though and a pretty good learning experience.

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/28925_Flash_vs_Stork (Tau Cross; highly recommended recent game)

http://www.gomtv.net/videos/538 (Bisu Flash Medusa)

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/8981_Bisu_vs_Flash (Katrina)

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9185_Flash_vs_free

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9243_Flash_vs_JangBi

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9006_Bisu_vs_Flash (Andromeda)

Most of these involve P early harass. Unfortunately it is hard to find a lot of top tosses vs Flash/Fantasy where the toss doesn't do some early harass build.

Overall for your play use either Flash or Fantasy's strategies. Fantasy's build is probably stronger as of now as it was only introduced back in January in oov's WL matches, while Flash's has been out for over a year and tosses are much more prepared for it. It is as you noted much more mechanically intensive, but I've found that Flash's is a lot lot harder than it looks even though it favors the less mechanically strong players.

The only other strong, consistent alternative is the Hiya-style 3 base timing allin build, where you take 3 bases off of 1-2 facts then quickly mass up to 8-10 facts and push. Works great against overly greedy tosses on certain maps if you don't like harass styles.
Liquipedia
lazz
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Australia3119 Posts
September 04 2009 08:45 GMT
#5
yeah guys protoss is ridiculously over powered i dont get why everyone doesnt just play as protoss..
LaLuSh
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Sweden2358 Posts
September 04 2009 11:10 GMT
#6
What you're asking for is basically:

Give me a VOD where a terran 1fac expands, doesn't do a timing push, but still wins in less than 15-20 minutes.

That's like saying:

Give me a VOD of a protoss who 14 nexuses, isn't aggressive, techs up and upgrades fast to either arbiters/carriers and still wins decisively in less than 15 minutes.


In short -- you're stupid.

Take the game Flash won vs Bisu in the wcg qualifiers as an example. You'd just lable it a "build order win" and disregard it because you've already got your mind set.

The truth is, terran will rarely/never win a game in less than 10 minutes when 1fac expanding.

Just as protoss will rarely or never win a PvT in less than 10 minutes when 1gate expanding.

That's the nature of starcraft. Now just shut up and quit whining.

Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Kung Fu Cup
20:00
2026 Week 28
IntoTheiNu 1134
RotterdaM688
TKL 353
SteadfastSC230
Rex156
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 688
Serral 509
Lowko393
TKL 353
SteadfastSC 230
Rex 156
LamboSC2 64
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 47203
Leta 986
Soma 928
EffOrt 823
Horang2 774
Larva 440
Light 353
Stork 317
Soulkey 311
Snow 291
[ Show more ]
BeSt 240
Mini 196
Rush 180
Mind 87
Creator 79
hero 67
Hyun 53
Pusan 40
sorry 39
Sexy 34
Aegong 21
Bishop 20
Free 20
Shine 19
Terrorterran 19
ToSsGirL 17
Sacsri 16
Hm[arnc] 16
HiyA 16
JYJ 13
Noble 12
Rock 10
Icarus 8
Dota 2
qojqva2675
syndereN665
XcaliburYe248
Counter-Strike
byalli514
Heroes of the Storm
crisheroes379
Other Games
Gorgc3381
singsing2172
hiko1040
B2W.Neo906
Mlord303
DeMusliM264
Liquid`VortiX155
Beastyqt49
Hui .28
QueenE22
Chillindude15
fpsfer 0
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• HeavenSC 5
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• ChaeLyn 6
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 1155
League of Legends
• Jankos2180
• TFBlade638
Other Games
• WagamamaTV228
Upcoming Events
IntoTheTV X SOOP
20h 40m
Reynor vs Zoun
Neeb vs Rogue
OSC
1d 8h
FEL
2 days
Patches Events
2 days
AI Arena Tournament
3 days
FEL
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
WardiTV Weekly
4 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
5 days
ByuN vs Lambo
MaxPax vs Bunny
[ Show More ]
PiGosaur Cup
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
Kung Fu Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-10-20
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
IPSL Winter 2026-27
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
Acropolis #5 - GSC
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026

Upcoming

BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.