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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
btw your preconditions and conclusion dont logically connect at all
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You can't cheese more than a rank above your own rank. Maybe for a game or two, but consistently? No way
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well said good sir. You're rank on iccup is by no means the only indicator of you're knowledge of this amazing game.
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United States3824 Posts
On September 01 2009 00:41 thedeadhaji wrote:
btw your preconditions and conclusion dont logically connect at all
Yeah I have to go to work and I was like, "Bail out! And then I didn't want to throw it away so I posted it.
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United States3824 Posts
And I didn't close that quotation.
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People from less cool sites would agree with you.
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FakeSteave.
...
Steave.
Steav.
Stea.
Ste.
St.
S.
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 i think posting you rank shows that you atleast have a clue about what your talking about, Even though people prolly are gonna think your a boasting dick. Posting your ICCup rank is kinda shooting yourself in the foot, it can still be usefull though.
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Yeah, I've played FakeSteve before, and I was surprised at how good he actually was (for some reason, I expected him to be super chobo lol). As you said in the OP, stats aren't a good comparative measure of the relative skills of two people, but, in the long run (if you keep on playing), they're a pretty good indicator of how good you really are. If you've laddered long enough to reach the point where you lose more often than you win (assuming you're playing straight up because you want to see how far your actually skills can take you), then you can get a decent estimate of your skill level.
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I'm barely C (got it last day after about 80 games), and I beat Warmaster. You might say he has a good game plan, but he's just good at cheesing in games one right after another. He's not actually "B-" rank at all, more like a C who cheesed his way to barely B-.
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I've added my ICC rank to my ID card, don't you say bullshit to me.
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Following your reasoning, first and last don't mean anything as well. Especially not last. The only thing last place means is that out of all the bad players, you are willing to play the most. And it's very possible that the guy in first got that rank instead of someone else, say, the guy in second, because of a strange set of coincidences. Or he just plays more ICCUP games than the others around his skill level
It's pretty well known that there are many flaws with judging someone by their rank. But to say that rank means absolutely nothing isn't true. No matter what line of reasoning you give me, a legit B- with a winning record is better than a D player with 30% wins and 200 games played
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United States24740 Posts
There's really no point in arguing with the OP since it's clear that its just his rant with the purpose of telling us that rank is so unimportant it's not worth getting worked up over... and especially getting banned over.
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Ah, it's a cleverly disguised "You fools! Why did you hack?!" rant.
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On September 01 2009 01:21 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote:
I'm barely C (got it last day after about 80 games), and I beat Warmaster. You might say he has a good game plan, but he's just good at cheesing in games one right after another. He's not actually "B-" rank at all, more like a C who cheesed his way to barely B-.
Random thought:
I think part of the reason cheese seems to work so well at lower levels is that the cheeser has a definite gameplan (given, it's much easier to hammer out a gameplan as the game is shorter and easier to repeat since there is less variation to account for), while the cheese-ee likely does not (even if he's not unfamiliar with responding to the cheese, it's still almost certain that he doesn't know exactly what to do and when to do it unlike the cheeser). Comparing cheese to lower level standard play, the players seem to have a vague idea of what they're doing and why, and maybe they know how to react in certain situations, but what they're lacking is knowing specifics - having a plan. For example, a cheesing 2hatch hydra player may know 9pool speed->deny scouting->12 drones on minerals, 3 on gas->keep pumping hydras once you reach your drone count. He has a plan he can execute any time. But a 5hatch hydra player may only know, "oh, I'm going to drone up until roughly 28/6, take my third gas and go lurks/mutas, then see if I can take more expos and drone up some more, maybe transition back into lurkerling while someone keeping my money down even though it's a totally different unit combination that requires different drone counts."
tl;dr version: Get a game plan, it helps a ton (especially as a Zerg player). And you'll be a lot more confident in your game.
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First and Formost: FakeSteave fucking owns. You know it, I know it. What's his rank on ICC? D-ish. Does that mean that me and FS are on the same level? Absoutely not. FS would destroy on me at SC, be it talking, playing, commentating, knowing battle.net commands, etc.
if it is true ( i doubt it) FS is not a good player. Pheraps he is good in theory but not in gaming (they are two differents things).
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Saracen speaks mountains of truth.
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On September 01 2009 01:11 gumbum8 wrote:http://www.iccup.com/matchlist/277406/1x1.htmlyou CAN cheese consistently... this guy has 120 apm, B-, avg. game length is little over 9 mins... Course, just mad props to warmaster, its a strategy game and his is superior.
lol warmaster
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You're not your iccup rank.
You're not how much vespene gas you have in the bank.
You're not the units you micro.
You're not the contents of your profile.
You're not your fucking keyboard.
You're the all-singing, all-dancing noob of the world.
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United States43221 Posts
On September 01 2009 02:25 decafchicken wrote:
You're not your iccup rank.
You're not how much vespene gas you have in the bank.
You're not the units you micro.
You're not the contents of your profile.
You're not your fucking keyboard.
You're the all-singing, all-dancing noob of the world.
With chaos syndrome nothings real. Everythings far away. Everythings a copy of a copy of a copy. When you have chaos syndrome, you're never really asleep... and you're never really awake
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i have people telling me that D level is dangerous, full of possible gosu's with progamer names that you'd submit to repdepot and go, ' real bisu? ', and that they could make c+ if they really tried, even if they've never played on iccup ladder before
but i played 9 games, two seasons ago--just D level-- and i thought they were the worst players ever
because my spammy 400apm or something, with no real build order, finished off zergs that would never get off ( 1 ) base
i think everyone's experience in iccup--unless you're part of a club, channel, or a bunch of friends that do the same things as each other--differs
assimilator before pylon or whatever, and 5 probes mining all game
i had no idea where these people found iccup from---looked like their first game of starcraft ever, was with me
but am i to judge ?
if i make it to C, sh*t changes, and there's more selection of players
they wanna' get better, and that letter, and record, shows a time committment at the very least don't you think?
relatively speaking, it's not easy to get to A on iccup when you're playing B level--what an ambiguos thing to say, what is B and what is C---it's different every time you get there
that difference, each time, or one particular season, can some way work with coincidence to bring people away from the game and from -here-
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
On September 01 2009 01:11 gumbum8 wrote:http://www.iccup.com/matchlist/277406/1x1.htmlyou CAN cheese consistently... this guy has 120 apm, B-, avg. game length is little over 9 mins... Course, just mad props to warmaster, its a strategy game and his is superior.
haha, he's sick. he showed me a few reps and they were just absolutely hilarious - whatever works on a ladder, right?
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let me guess
3 hatch lings?
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I'd say the iccup is a better indicator of skill than APM. I'm not sure you can say that if FakeSteave(?) is a legitimate D- player, that he is likely to beat someone who is a legitimate B level player.
It's just one relative measure of skill, but not absolute.
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Huh. You can either use strategic play or go for some sort of more standard game. I don't see how using strategic play every game somehow lets you get to ranks that you should not be at. If you can use strategic play to get to B- then you ARE B-.
Basically, you are trying to say that Luxury didn't win an MSL right? Because he cheesed? B- with strategic play = B- with standard only games. That's just how it is. Sure it's EASIER to get to B- using cheese, but it doesn't change the fact that you are B-.
I for one play standard EVERY game. Against zerg I do a forge FE into either a 4gate zealchon or just a midgame army of zeal/goon/temp. Against terran I go either 1 gate obs or 2 gate obs. Despite this, I don't hold anything against people who use strategic plays against me to win.
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If you want to see a semi-bad player who can cheese his way to A- look at Yan...he is not A-, nowhere NEAR it, but he gets it every season (1v1). Check his matchlist; it will be 99% PvP, under 8 minutes, 100% proxy gate in mid, and he'll usually win a tournament around high B to get his A-. 
He's very good at cheesing, though. I watched him almost beat Brat_OK on Requiem when they uploaded the clanwar reps to ICCUP, with his 2 gate proxy shit. I think that he will never beat someone he's played more than once, though, because it's 2 gate middle 100% of the time. Brat_OK beat him in the first game, barely, but then after that it was not remotely close.
Not to say Yan is bad, but he's certainly no "legitimate" 1v1 A- player.
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Cheese till D+
Everygame i dont cheese, i lose. Half the game i cheese i win. Wtf? i suck. im still D.
Ling all-in 24/7
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On September 01 2009 00:39 thedeadhaji wrote:
quit and win imo
Works for TL staff too.
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isn't 3 hatch ling a 2 v 2 rush strategy ? lol
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On September 01 2009 05:06 nisukeapple wrote:
isn't 3 hatch ling a 2 v 2 rush strategy ? lol
are you serious?
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On September 01 2009 02:50 intrigue wrote:haha, he's sick. he showed me a few reps and they were just absolutely hilarious - whatever works on a ladder, right?
Yea but if ANYONE played him with that knowledge he would get raped. = not a good player. You know why bisu is fucking sick? Because he plays standard and straight-up. He is a master of the game the way it should be mastered. Same with Flash. Guess who the only person he ever cheesed was? Bisu.
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On September 01 2009 06:50 Hypnosis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2009 02:50 intrigue wrote:On September 01 2009 01:11 gumbum8 wrote:http://www.iccup.com/matchlist/277406/1x1.htmlyou CAN cheese consistently... this guy has 120 apm, B-, avg. game length is little over 9 mins... Course, just mad props to warmaster, its a strategy game and his is superior. haha, he's sick. he showed me a few reps and they were just absolutely hilarious - whatever works on a ladder, right? Yea but if ANYONE played him with that knowledge he would get raped. = not a good player. You know why bisu is fucking sick? Because he plays standard and straight-up. He is a master of the game the way it should be mastered. Same with Flash. Guess who the only person he ever cheesed was? Bisu.
I don't think you've watched very many older Flash games...
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The best measure of a player is not how well they can cheese up a ladder, but how they fair in a BoX or against players with an opportunity to observe some of their games before playing. If you can only play one build, and it has hard counters, you're not very good. However, if you can either play a build that's OK/adaptable against anything, or can play a variety of cheeses with different counters, you can count as a good player. No need to worship 'standard' play.
On September 01 2009 05:06 nisukeapple wrote:
isn't 3 hatch ling a 2 v 2 rush strategy ? lol
It's a cheesy rush strategy in 1v1 (get 24+ lings fast and rush the hell out of them - only works against FE unless they give up their choke, and requires the element of surprise), and a viable 2v2 build (but awkward if the other zerg gets mutas out, since you have few drones and no tech).
On September 01 2009 06:53 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2009 06:50 Hypnosis wrote:On September 01 2009 02:50 intrigue wrote:On September 01 2009 01:11 gumbum8 wrote:http://www.iccup.com/matchlist/277406/1x1.htmlyou CAN cheese consistently... this guy has 120 apm, B-, avg. game length is little over 9 mins... Course, just mad props to warmaster, its a strategy game and his is superior. haha, he's sick. he showed me a few reps and they were just absolutely hilarious - whatever works on a ladder, right? Yea but if ANYONE played him with that knowledge he would get raped. = not a good player. You know why bisu is fucking sick? Because he plays standard and straight-up. He is a master of the game the way it should be mastered. Same with Flash. Guess who the only person he ever cheesed was? Bisu. I don't think you've watched very many older Flash games...
He also cheesed Effort recently. But his cheeses work because you know he can play standard.
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On September 01 2009 00:44 Zoler wrote:
You can't cheese more than a rank above your own rank. Maybe for a game or two, but consistently? No way
SO WHERES UR B RANK BUDDI
hahahaha
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EPT
