With the announcement of the most recent patch notes one pattern that seems to be emerging is: Less variety = better balance (possible due to it seeming easier to balance a game with less variety). Throughout this game's short life I can think of plenty of upgrades or abilities off the top of my head which are now scrapped (roach regeneration, flux veins, ultralisk ram) or nerfed almost into oblivion, reaper speed anyone??
Most of us have the experience under our belt of playing what I consider to be quite a masterpiece of a game starcraft brood war. This thread is not about which game is better, or anything of the sort. But one thing I think that most of us can agree on is that brood war was a relatively balanced game. I know some of you will disagree, and sure it isn't perfect, but we're still seeing all 3 races get far in major tournaments well after the last patch and that's got to mean something. SC2 has this game to look at as one way of achieving relative balance. An observation that's been made is that every race in brood war has units and abilities which I'm sure would cause an uproar if the game was somehow released to us today. Lets take a look at a few examples:
dark swarm practically made zerg invincible to the entire terran race
forget a vortex you can just run the rest of your army into
75 minerals for a lightning fast unit with 3 spider mines? Yes please!
And the list could certainly go on. Taken on their own, I'm sure any of these abilities and units would generate an outrage now, but the game still worked as a whole! In one way, the game was 3 overpowered races killing eachother. So far in SC2, the races have been, and are continuing to be neutered in a way which not only kills variety but is missing out on the lessons that bw has taught us!
In my opinion variety is one thing which is going to help this game grow and be popular years from now. I wish Blizzard would take note and ask themselves "flux vein void rays overpowered? Lets give the other races a way to deal with it" instead of "scrap it". Less options in a game with a lower skill ceiling is not going to create entertaining games to watch and play especially at the pro level.
I've love to hear some opinions on this but if you could please comment on the general trend on how SC2 is being balanced and not just on current changes, I feel that's more related to this conversation.
Thanks for reading!
Edit: heyoka linked an article by Liquid`Drone which basically covers the same points I was trying to make. I didn't intend to rehash points already made but I guess it is what it is... Mods if you think it's not worth having such a similar thread please feel free to give it a close.
I have always thought that Blizz need to add more interesting abilities to the units, instead of generic lame ones like Hydra range or Flux veins or Ultralisk armor or increased energy for spell casters. Those are all boring. Can't we get more creativity and differentiation in here?
Starcraft isn't only a competitive e-sport, it also needs to be a spectator sport. Less abilities, less units, less variety = boring. Not only is it the wrong way to balance, it's also the wrong way to achieve popularity.
You also have to remember we still have 2 expansions to go. We may see some of these nerfs reverted in later expansions when they are able to implement new abilities and units into the 3 races.
Currently, they have all that they want for this implementation of Starcraft 2. While it would be cool to see races given new ways to handle X ability and Y unit composition, that's not the current goal of the development team. How great of an e-sport would it be if every 2 months there was a new mechanic or ability to learn in order to counter the imbalance seen within the game? If that happened, it would just make SC2 harder to approach for spectators and players alike.
I think that SC2 seems to be a lot more complicated than BW - I think they're doing a good job in balancing it. I don't think you can really compare SC2 to BW in terms of balancing at this moment because don't forget that we haven't even seen the two expansions yet, which I'm sure are going to turn the game on it's head
The thing is, half the units in brood war were overpowered, but it was okay because no one could have perfect mechanics and perfect army control. When starcraft two added all these multiple building selections and unlimited units in a group it changed how the rts was played.
The real difference is balance in brood war was created by making the best player win because controlling units was so incredibly hard while macroing. In sc2, it's a joke so they have to nerf every unit into oblivion or the game would be ridiculously stupid. However, it kind of still is.
Definitely have to agree with everything you said, it seems that Blizzard is more concerned with "perfect balance" then they are with having it be a fun game to play and watch. While yes, the game needs to reach a point of balance for it to be an eSport, it also needs to be fun to play and fun to watch. Nerfing the uniqueness of every interesting unit in the game makes a game that is less fun to play, and MUCH less fun to watch.
I'd love to see more race buffs rather then nerfs because as you said, versatility is really what creates an awesome eSport (especially in a strategy game! You think that would be common sense )
The thing with vultures(need Ion Thrusters to beat speedlings/Spider Mines) is that they needed really good control, but you can mostly A-move with hellions the units were more unique and you could use a shuttle+a unit from the robo bay to kill tons of units
there's still two expansions for sc2 both plague and irradiate can do 300 and 250 damage over a long time
Yup I agree, SC1 seemed to be about super hard counters (or rather OP races like you say), while WC3 was about soft counters. SC2 seems to be in the middle.
There seems to be one benefit to the SC2 way though. In SC1 the "OP"ness of the units made it very hard to learn and get good at the game, because of all the exploits your opponent can utilize in his race. In SC2 it seems to be much easier to learn because there isn't the "wtf how did he build so many vultures so quickly? Ahh they're killing all my probes!" and etc.
I think the Flux Vane thing, however, was more to fix the feel and role of the Void Ray rather than just a nerf. So I don't think that's the best example.
Edit: in relation to SC1's methods, a toilet (especially epic lulzy archon toilets) would seem to fit under the "OP" but balanced ability wouldn't it? But I can't see a way they could easily change the other races to have such powerful tactics too, so perhaps the reason they nerfed it (in the 1.3 PTR) is not because they felt it was too strong but because they couldn't think of a way to empower the other races. (Probably not the latter, but you never know!)
I have to disagree with you. I actually feel that the "overpowered" (I think we should use this really loosely) units remove options rather than create them, and thus make the game less fun to both play and watch. Void Rays I think are an issue in themselves though in that they are just a very poorly designed unit rather than one that is just blatantly overpowered. The Flux Vanes upgrade made them counter virtually everything that was meant to counter them. I see that as a problem. This goes further into the general design practice they used for Starcraft 2 but now I'm just getting off topic. Back to the big, strong units, I think Colossi and to a lesser extent (the threat of) Immortals are good examples. They aren't just stupid over-the-top overpowered units, but they are strong similar to how Defilers were in Brood War. And like Defilers, they dictate how practically the entire matchup is played. From a terran perspective my game plan is based almost entirely on 1. when Colossus are coming out and 2. how I'm going to use that information whether it be cheesing to hopefully win before they enter play, transitioning into vikings, etc. And as we all know from the protoss perspective many, many, many strategies center entirely around getting out those crucial Colossi simply because they are so powerful. In those regards it does limit the player quite a bit because there's a limited amount of strategies that make use of those units and that are effective against those units, especially as numbers grow going into the late game.
I think the way to get more variety is by creating a lot of medium powered units that don't dictate the game so much and leave the flow of the game to the players. Personally I find TvT very exciting to watch for this reason because despite the tank line showdowns there's always a lot of action in the form of fighting for ground positioning, banshee harassment, fighting for air control with vikings, drops, etc. Terran doesn't have a unit that says "when there's 5 of me I win" to center strategies around. Watch PvP on the other hand and well.. you know where this is going.
I don't think people want to play a hard game for 10 years for it to be balanced. They'd rather have less choices and more homogenized units. That's probably why they scrapped old units merging them with other ones instead of adding new ones or keeping both.
On February 26 2011 15:10 BattRoll wrote: I think that SC2 seems to be a lot more complicated than BW - I think they're doing a good job in balancing it. I don't think you can really compare SC2 to BW in terms of balancing at this moment because don't forget that we haven't even seen the two expansions yet, which I'm sure are going to turn the game on it's head
Are you kidding?
Brood War is far more complicated, mechanically and strategically. Just the sheer unit diversity of BW, as outlined in the OP, is overwhelming when you look at SC2's Stalker/Marauder/Roach bland design. Brood War just had years and years of play on it before Blizzard patched a whole ton of stuff all at once. These small tweaks in balance while in the middle of a shifting metagame are like throwing darts at a moving board a month after the board you were aiming for is even relevant.
Honestly, unless something is overtly overpowered, I think Blizzard should leave the game alone and let it play out. If it's that strong, it would begin to dominate every single game played with it, and then it would be easy and the community wouldn't be in such shock every time patch notes were released. I mean, seriously, who was complaining about Fungal? Who thought stim timing was too fast? It's like these guys are playing a different game.
On February 26 2011 14:59 LoLAdriankat wrote: The new generation of gamers want instant satisfaction instead of working for it. No one wants to blame themselves for a loss these days. :|
Related to the topic. I think Jinro (correct me if I'm wrong) said that with blizzards current approach it's not making it easier for people to win it's making it easier for people to die. I have to agree with you having units just lying around uselessly is stupid if a unit exists it should actually be useful enough in some situations to warrant use.
My initial reaction is: yes, mos def! Why would they remove the void ray and high temp upgrades? *tear*
But... maybe they're making room for more interesting ability upgrades later down the line. BW had plenty of OMGWTF abilities, but SC2 has at least one: force fields. Also really strong are fungal growth, potentially neural parasite or contaminate, and of course the classic stim pack and siege mode. With two more expansion packs, the number of really strong abilities should go up (and having few OMGWTF makes it easier on lower leagues)
That said, I wish I knew the rational for the balance decisions Blizz makes. As was just said: nobody was complaining about fungal
Lets give the other races a way to deal with it" instead of "scrap it"
The game is far too complex to be able to create some sort of "slogan for balance". The individual changes must be considered on a case by case basis with reference to the current state of the metagame.
Drone brought this up in an article a long time ago and I think its a very valid point. BW is in part great because there are points in every game where there is an undeniable advantage for one side. In a vacuum there are a ton of units and abilities that are absurdly over powered for their cost but the points in the game in which those situations can happen is varied, which allows for fun and deep gameplay.
SC2 is SC2. BW is BW. I really don't see why people keep comparing the two.
As for variety, since you love comparing different games to one another; chess is a pretty simple game that has been around for many many years.. new variations and lines come from that game all the time, and is still being studied, even with super computers.
You have no idea how little can turn into extremely complex. Also, keep in mind, expansions are set to come out in the next couple of years, with that, adds even more to the mix.
On February 26 2011 16:04 MrRicewife wrote: SC2 is SC2. BW is BW. I really don't see why people keep comparing the two.
As for variety, since you love comparing different games to one another; chess is a pretty simple game that has been around for many many years.. new variations and lines come from that game all the time, and is still being studied, even with super computers.
You have no idea how little can turn into extremely complex. Also, keep in mind, expansions are set to come out in the next couple of years, with that, adds even more to the mix.
The italicized portion of your post makes me think you haven't lurked these forums very long. Comparisons between these two games are commonplace, and not as easy to dismiss as you seem to think they are. When thinking of competitive RTS, the gold standard is BW, and players of that game have been waiting over a decade for this game. It's understandable that they compare this new game's relative merits to those of BW in an effort to find reasons why it feels different.
On February 26 2011 16:03 heyoka wrote: Drone brought this up in an article a long time ago and I think its a very valid point. BW is in part great because there are points in every game where there is an undeniable advantage for one side. In a vacuum there are a ton of units and abilities that are absurdly over powered for their cost but the points in the game in which those situations can happen is varied, which allows for fun and deep gameplay.
Wow that post is actually really similar to mine... Didn't intend to rehash a point which had already been made. That article was a good read, thanks for linking it!