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On October 18 2019 19:40 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2019 17:03 Malinor wrote:On October 18 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:On October 18 2019 13:14 Archile wrote: In what other sport is there a restriction like this and someone explain how this is beneficial to starcraft? The olympics? You win a spot for your nation and nations are represented equally. The region system was supposed to be a compromise about retaining internal region competition, while also building an interesting 'worldwide' tournament at Blizzcon. Does it make for the best tournaments? Not necessarily. Does it provide for a good 'worldwide' competition? I'd say so, yes. Olympics is not a good example. Olympic games still respect how good nations are and are giving as many spots as possible to the top countries(check the table tennis results as an example) Under all the usual competition Koreans would get more than 50 % of the spots because, well, there's more than 50 % of top players. (considering there are only 2 groups, WCS and Korea) The olympics is a very good example and your table tennis analogy is false. Two chinese men and two chinese women were allowed to compete in the 2016 olympics and they made 1st and 2nd place in both competitions. This is out of ~64 spots for men and women respectively. Looking at the world ranking, 5 chinese men and 6 chinese women are in the top ten right now (and this has basically been true for the last two decades). It's not, there are over 180 countries in the world. (190 and something IIRC) There are 2 SC2 "countries"(well, regions is the right word), WCS and Korea. That's the point you've missed. If we're about to use the country approach then we will be more in the WESG ratio, but we're not using that, we're using the region approach instead. )
And this is already an incredible amount of leeway no other sport has, you will never see a, say, athletism world champion ship where 50% of the spots go to USA and Jamaica and the 50% remaining to the rest of the world.
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Handball does. EuroCup (16 attendees) is way way harder than WorldCup (24 attendees, 16 from EU). If you do a list of 30 strongest handball-countries, ~25 are from EU). Plenty Players said that.
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Canada8780 Posts
It's cleary "more fair" than it's ever been to be honest, I mean who in Korea really got "robbed" of their spot? TY is probably the only one, since he got a final both in ST and HSC and kinda decent results in GSL, but the problem here is more than HSC doesn't give out WCS points.
Outside of him no player got more than one semi-final appearance, Gumiho and Solar both got a final but they didn't even make a single GSL round of 8 and every other top 16 players has at most a single semi-final (Zest-Huricane-Parting) or none (Dear-Ragnarok). Are some of these better than some of the WCS round of 8 players? Probably. Is there a solid argument to be made for any of them that they are the best player in the world? Nope, not even close
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Hello darkness my old friend...
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On October 19 2019 01:28 Nakajin wrote: It's cleary "more fair" than it's ever been to be honest, I mean who in Korea really got "robbed" of their spot? TY is probably the only one, since he got a final both in ST and HSC and kinda decent results in GSL, but the problem here is more than HSC doesn't give out WCS points.
Outside of him no player got more than one semi-final appearance, Gumiho and Solar both got a final but they didn't even make a single GSL round of 8 and every other top 16 players has at most a single semi-final (Zest-Huricane-Parting) or none (Dear-Ragnarok). Are some of these better than some of the WCS round of 8 players? Probably. Is there a solid argument to be made for any of them that they are the best player in the world? Nope, not even close
Plenty of Korean players got robbed if the idea is to get the most capable players to blizzcon.
You really gonna tell me that a lineup like time, heromarine, showtime, elazer is better than TY, innovation, dear, and solar? that is a joke.
Special is 4th seed in WCS circuit. he is not even top 20 GSL rank. Put reynor, elazer and even Neeb, who's won a kespa cupt, into the GSL and you bet the farm that they don't make blizzcon. The GSL is a complete and utter dogfight where even monsters like TY and Solar arent guaranteed to make it in. Stats, the only protoss player to topple serral and arguably the best protoss player on the planet, barely made it in.
Thanks to region lock we are missing 3 of the top 4 terran players in the world and a top 4 (arguably top 3) zerg in the world.
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Elazer beat Dark and Neeb beat Stats just as recently as the last GSL vs the World; I think you're underselling the WCS players just a hair.
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Canada8780 Posts
On October 19 2019 14:59 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2019 01:28 Nakajin wrote: It's cleary "more fair" than it's ever been to be honest, I mean who in Korea really got "robbed" of their spot? TY is probably the only one, since he got a final both in ST and HSC and kinda decent results in GSL, but the problem here is more than HSC doesn't give out WCS points.
Outside of him no player got more than one semi-final appearance, Gumiho and Solar both got a final but they didn't even make a single GSL round of 8 and every other top 16 players has at most a single semi-final (Zest-Huricane-Parting) or none (Dear-Ragnarok). Are some of these better than some of the WCS round of 8 players? Probably. Is there a solid argument to be made for any of them that they are the best player in the world? Nope, not even close Plenty of Korean players got robbed if the idea is to get the most capable players to blizzcon. You really gonna tell me that a lineup like time, heromarine, showtime, elazer is better than TY, innovation, dear, and solar? that is a joke. Special is 4th seed in WCS circuit. he is not even top 20 GSL rank. Put reynor, elazer and even Neeb, who's won a kespa cupt, into the GSL and you bet the farm that they don't make blizzcon. The GSL is a complete and utter dogfight where even monsters like TY and Solar arent guaranteed to make it in. Stats, the only protoss player to topple serral and arguably the best protoss player on the planet, barely made it in. Thanks to region lock we are missing 3 of the top 4 terran players in the world and a top 4 (arguably top 3) zerg in the world.
That's not exactly what I was saying, I'm not saying they aren't better (I clearly said it in my post) I'm saying that they all had an average to mediocre year, TY and Solar are the only one who had a decent shot at winning a tournament, all the other ones just cruised on beeing a bit better than average in GSL. No one ever thought Huricane or Ragnarok were the best in the world, not even on a certain day, so I don't particularly think it's a big loss if they don't get to go, at that point better of with multiple national champ ranking up the views.
It used to be that you could reach multiple finals/win tournaments and still not make it into Blizzcon, but nowaday you just need a bunch of round of 8. I was more pissed at like Lilbow getting into Blizzcon in front of like a 2 times champ Solar that I am at Time getting a spot of Dear. (Also INno ain't making it if you give 16 spot to Korea)
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I am for region lock (mainly for pragmatic reasons though as I don't pretend to think that it is the most fair system) but I've sometimes lamented the fact that Classic didn't make Blizzcon in 2016 and sOs didn't make it in 2017. Especially sOs because 2017 was the only year in LotV where he was like his former self.
That said, what Nakajin said I think is mostly true. It was definitely harder to make Blizzcon in 2013 and 2014 (only 6 from KR made it). Even though more than 8 Koreans could theoretically qualify, this didn't happen because many people qualified from America and Europe. I think it is not really true for 2015 though. After they merged WCS America and Europe though, most of the Blizzcon participants were from KR region (there were fewer points to go around in WCS). Rogue and Fantasy mostly got ro8s or lower that year, from my memory.
So it's a shame that sOs didn't make Blizzcon during his peak in 2017 but I definitely don't think he would've made it in early HotS either. All in all, I'd have to say that the changes in 2016 worsened Blizzcon odds if you compare it to 2015 but arguably improved the odds of making Blizzcon compared to 2013-14.
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I'm fine with region lock, though I do think the prize pool has become way too top heavy in starcraft. The foreign scene is strong, and the Korean scene is fine right now, but will suffer a lot once more and more people retire for military. Imagine a world where instead of bloating already high top prizes in tournaments like Blizzcon, warchest funds go to actually helping esports by funding amateur only tournaments in Korea.
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Northern Ireland20807 Posts
On October 19 2019 20:22 dysenterymd wrote: I'm fine with region lock, though I do think the prize pool has become way too top heavy in starcraft. The foreign scene is strong, and the Korean scene is fine right now, but will suffer a lot once more and more people retire for military. Imagine a world where instead of bloating already high top prizes in tournaments like Blizzcon, warchest funds go to actually helping esports by funding amateur only tournaments in Korea. Indeed, I’d personally love the opportunity to fund more tournaments for where the cash is really needed.
There’s just fewer tournaments all round. No Proleague, no SSL, no more MLGs, regular Dreamhacks and fewer IEM stops.
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