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I understand what they were trying to do with the regions stuff, but now that we have players like Serral, is it fair to have regions?
Foreigners are starting to compete on the same level as Koreans, and looking at who made it to blizzon this year, I just don't think it's fair that some players like TY didn't make it over some of the foreign players who did.
It just doesn't feel like the absolute top players in the world are competing in the WCS finals. In what other sport is there a restriction like this and someone explain how this is beneficial to starcraft?
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It was never fair in terms of letting only the most talented players go.
Blizzard wanted foreigners to have a chance so they implemented region lock. The protection nurtured the foreign scene and now we end up with today’s scenario.
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In what other sport is there a restriction like this and someone explain how this is beneficial to starcraft? The olympics? You win a spot for your nation and nations are represented equally.
The region system was supposed to be a compromise about retaining internal region competition, while also building an interesting 'worldwide' tournament at Blizzcon. Does it make for the best tournaments? Not necessarily. Does it provide for a good 'worldwide' competition? I'd say so, yes.
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here's a newsflash
playoff systems aren't fair. they aren't designed to "determine the best player/team," they're designed to have a dramatic showdown for a trophy where nerves and luck can be significant factors and competitors are sourced from various leagues/circuits in order to entertain a diverse audience
"worse" koreans have knocked out "better" koreans in GSL too. does that make GSL wrong and unfair? it's just a playoff. show up, win games, advance. if you don't advance try harder next time
no idea why this is so complicated for some fans. if TY wants to win blizzcon he can get better and show better results
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On October 18 2019 12:02 droppanda wrote: I understand what they were trying to do with the regions stuff, but now that we have players like Serral, is it fair to have regions?
Foreigners are starting to compete on the same level as Koreans, and looking at who made it to blizzon this year, I just don't think it's fair that some players like TY didn't make it over some of the foreign players who did.
It just doesn't feel like the absolute top players in the world are competing in the WCS finals. In what other sport is there a restriction like this and someone explain how this is beneficial to starcraft?
The FIFA world cup? I do not like the rule too but will have to make do with it in order to grow talent in the foreign scene. Serral is an exception. The average Korean is still better than the average foreigner. You will know this by comparing the KR ladder and the EU ladder.
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On October 18 2019 12:02 droppanda wrote: ...but now that we have players like Serral...
If you're gonna pluralize "players" you're gonna have to name more than just Serral. And you can't, because he's the only one that's shown consistent success against Korea's best.
It's beneficial to the Starcraft scene because (as someone else mentioned) a more regionally-diverse player base attracts a bigger audience. Like it or not, if only a couple foreigners make it in, viewership drops. TY would have made it if he had played better throughout the year.
All that being said, I hope the region lock is lifted for entirely different reasons. The Korean scene is growing super stale and GSL is becoming the same tournament over and over again. I think there has to be more international opportunity for Koreans, either so some of the consistent GSL players can compete elsewhere and free up some Code S spots for fresh blood, or so up-and-coming Korean talent can find some place other than GSL to have a breakthrough.
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People gave some nice examples, but to use an eSports example, LoL Worlds isn't just picking the top X best teams worldwide, they are letting each region's scene select representatives that then compete on the world stage. I think it's nice that way.
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In every Championship in every Sport, there are some kind of those rules applied. And if they wanted to determine the best Player in a given time Periode, they would just do a giant Round Robin group.
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Czech Republic12115 Posts
On October 18 2019 13:14 Archile wrote:Show nested quote + In what other sport is there a restriction like this and someone explain how this is beneficial to starcraft? The olympics? You win a spot for your nation and nations are represented equally. The region system was supposed to be a compromise about retaining internal region competition, while also building an interesting 'worldwide' tournament at Blizzcon. Does it make for the best tournaments? Not necessarily. Does it provide for a good 'worldwide' competition? I'd say so, yes. Olympics is not a good example. Olympic games still respect how good nations are and are giving as many spots as possible to the top countries(check the table tennis results as an example)
Under all the usual competition Koreans would get more than 50 % of the spots because, well, there's more than 50 % of top players. (considering there are only 2 groups, WCS and Korea)
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On October 18 2019 12:02 droppanda wrote: I understand what they were trying to do with the regions stuff, but now that we have players like Serral, is it fair to have regions?
Foreigners are starting to compete on the same level as Koreans, and looking at who made it to blizzon this year, I just don't think it's fair that some players like TY didn't make it over some of the foreign players who did.
It just doesn't feel like the absolute top players in the world are competing in the WCS finals. In what other sport is there a restriction like this and someone explain how this is beneficial to starcraft?
Like a good 90% of all sports I'd say. I can't at the top of my head think of any non-esports sport which doesn't have regions.
edit: I guess most motorsports doesn't do the whole region thing. But there's plenty of other factors in play there which doesn't let the best drivers compete on an equal level.
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On October 18 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2019 13:14 Archile wrote: In what other sport is there a restriction like this and someone explain how this is beneficial to starcraft? The olympics? You win a spot for your nation and nations are represented equally. The region system was supposed to be a compromise about retaining internal region competition, while also building an interesting 'worldwide' tournament at Blizzcon. Does it make for the best tournaments? Not necessarily. Does it provide for a good 'worldwide' competition? I'd say so, yes. Olympics is not a good example. Olympic games still respect how good nations are and are giving as many spots as possible to the top countries(check the table tennis results as an example) Under all the usual competition Koreans would get more than 50 % of the spots because, well, there's more than 50 % of top players. (considering there are only 2 groups, WCS and Korea)
The olympics is a very good example and your table tennis analogy is false. Two chinese men and two chinese women were allowed to compete in the 2016 olympics and they made 1st and 2nd place in both competitions. This is out of ~64 spots for men and women respectively.
Looking at the world ranking, 5 chinese men and 6 chinese women are in the top ten right now (and this has basically been true for the last two decades).
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Northern Ireland20676 Posts
Region locking has actually worked pretty damn well, just unfortunately it’s coincided with a decline in the Korean scene due to other factors.
No sport is overly sustainable if it’s an all or nothing between being one of the best in the world or not making any money.
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I've been on both sides of the debate, and honestly I don't know/care anymore. Both sides have very strong arguments. Ultimately, life isn't fair, and people need to stop forcing 'fairness' onto society. I do have a preference (no lock), but I do think it's important for fans to get to see their favorite players have more opportunities to shine. Since Serral is my favorite, I get to have it both ways. haha
Personally, I want to see many, many more Serral v Korean matches, but this region lock really puts a damper on that.
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On October 18 2019 17:40 Wombat_NI wrote: Region locking has actually worked pretty damn well, just unfortunately it’s coincided with a decline in the Korean scene due to other factors.
No sport is overly sustainable if it’s an all or nothing between being one of the best in the world or not making any money.
.. which is now the Korean situation. It's about time to relax the region lock, because :
- The Gap is narrower
- It still exist (top koreans + Serral > others), but only with a select few players.
- So, there are not a ton of Code-A/low code S players able to pay the trip to foreign tourneys and consistently making money doing so by placing top 8 each time etc.
- This was the situation that triggered the region lock.
- Last but NOT LEAST, we, the fans, need way way more Top Korean Terran vs Serral. One or three matchs per year with jet-lagged players is a joke.
This was the issue with the "best player of the world" discussion. Maru and Serral are godlikes since years, arguably each are the best player ever in their region/races. But hey how they compete against each other ? Well, going to aligulac Maru vs Seral has only 6 games (result 3 vs 3)... played more than a year ago...
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"players like Serral", you mean Serral? :D
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Czech Republic12115 Posts
On October 18 2019 17:03 Malinor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:On October 18 2019 13:14 Archile wrote: In what other sport is there a restriction like this and someone explain how this is beneficial to starcraft? The olympics? You win a spot for your nation and nations are represented equally. The region system was supposed to be a compromise about retaining internal region competition, while also building an interesting 'worldwide' tournament at Blizzcon. Does it make for the best tournaments? Not necessarily. Does it provide for a good 'worldwide' competition? I'd say so, yes. Olympics is not a good example. Olympic games still respect how good nations are and are giving as many spots as possible to the top countries(check the table tennis results as an example) Under all the usual competition Koreans would get more than 50 % of the spots because, well, there's more than 50 % of top players. (considering there are only 2 groups, WCS and Korea) The olympics is a very good example and your table tennis analogy is false. Two chinese men and two chinese women were allowed to compete in the 2016 olympics and they made 1st and 2nd place in both competitions. This is out of ~64 spots for men and women respectively. Looking at the world ranking, 5 chinese men and 6 chinese women are in the top ten right now (and this has basically been true for the last two decades). It's not, there are over 180 countries in the world. (190 and something IIRC) There are 2 SC2 "countries"(well, regions is the right word), WCS and Korea. That's the point you've missed. If we're about to use the country approach then we will be more in the WESG ratio, but we're not using that, we're using the region approach instead.
On October 18 2019 19:11 osliang wrote: "players like Serral", you mean Serral? :D Actually if you check the WCS results, the top players are still the same, which is an issue as "rich get richer" isn't exactly what you want to see. While it's easier to get into the foreign SC2, it's not easy to get to the top8. Compare with Korean top8
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On October 18 2019 19:40 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2019 17:03 Malinor wrote:On October 18 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:On October 18 2019 13:14 Archile wrote: In what other sport is there a restriction like this and someone explain how this is beneficial to starcraft? The olympics? You win a spot for your nation and nations are represented equally. The region system was supposed to be a compromise about retaining internal region competition, while also building an interesting 'worldwide' tournament at Blizzcon. Does it make for the best tournaments? Not necessarily. Does it provide for a good 'worldwide' competition? I'd say so, yes. Olympics is not a good example. Olympic games still respect how good nations are and are giving as many spots as possible to the top countries(check the table tennis results as an example) Under all the usual competition Koreans would get more than 50 % of the spots because, well, there's more than 50 % of top players. (considering there are only 2 groups, WCS and Korea) The olympics is a very good example and your table tennis analogy is false. Two chinese men and two chinese women were allowed to compete in the 2016 olympics and they made 1st and 2nd place in both competitions. This is out of ~64 spots for men and women respectively. Looking at the world ranking, 5 chinese men and 6 chinese women are in the top ten right now (and this has basically been true for the last two decades). It's not, there are over 180 countries in the world. (190 and something IIRC) There are 2 SC2 "countries"(well, regions is the right word), WCS and Korea. That's the point you've missed. If we're about to use the country approach then we will be more in the WESG ratio, but we're not using that, we're using the region approach instead. Show nested quote +On October 18 2019 19:11 osliang wrote: "players like Serral", you mean Serral? :D Actually if you check the WCS results, the top players are still the same, which is an issue as "rich get richer" isn't exactly what you want to see. While it's easier to get into the foreign SC2, it's not easy to get to the top8. Compare with Korean top8
Wow. Your mental gymnastics never fail to deliver.
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Czech Republic12115 Posts
On October 18 2019 21:01 Malinor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2019 19:40 deacon.frost wrote:On October 18 2019 17:03 Malinor wrote:On October 18 2019 16:04 deacon.frost wrote:On October 18 2019 13:14 Archile wrote: In what other sport is there a restriction like this and someone explain how this is beneficial to starcraft? The olympics? You win a spot for your nation and nations are represented equally. The region system was supposed to be a compromise about retaining internal region competition, while also building an interesting 'worldwide' tournament at Blizzcon. Does it make for the best tournaments? Not necessarily. Does it provide for a good 'worldwide' competition? I'd say so, yes. Olympics is not a good example. Olympic games still respect how good nations are and are giving as many spots as possible to the top countries(check the table tennis results as an example) Under all the usual competition Koreans would get more than 50 % of the spots because, well, there's more than 50 % of top players. (considering there are only 2 groups, WCS and Korea) The olympics is a very good example and your table tennis analogy is false. Two chinese men and two chinese women were allowed to compete in the 2016 olympics and they made 1st and 2nd place in both competitions. This is out of ~64 spots for men and women respectively. Looking at the world ranking, 5 chinese men and 6 chinese women are in the top ten right now (and this has basically been true for the last two decades). It's not, there are over 180 countries in the world. (190 and something IIRC) There are 2 SC2 "countries"(well, regions is the right word), WCS and Korea. That's the point you've missed. If we're about to use the country approach then we will be more in the WESG ratio, but we're not using that, we're using the region approach instead. On October 18 2019 19:11 osliang wrote: "players like Serral", you mean Serral? :D Actually if you check the WCS results, the top players are still the same, which is an issue as "rich get richer" isn't exactly what you want to see. While it's easier to get into the foreign SC2, it's not easy to get to the top8. Compare with Korean top8 Wow. Your mental gymnastics never fail to deliver. And any counter point will be or just offences?
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On October 18 2019 17:40 Wombat_NI wrote:
No sport is overly sustainable if it’s an all or nothing between being one of the best in the world or not making any money.
Well there are many sports, where you don t even make money, if you are actually the best in the world.
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Northern Ireland20676 Posts
On October 18 2019 21:25 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2019 17:40 Wombat_NI wrote:
No sport is overly sustainable if it’s an all or nothing between being one of the best in the world or not making any money. Well there are many sports, where you don t even make money, if you are actually the best in the world. That is also true, although few sports have the dual downside of the huge amount of time needed and lack of physical activity that it takes to be an SC pro.
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