|
This post comments on a game between Shuttle and Rain.
+ Show Spoiler +Hey, While watching the Shuttle vs Rain match, in game 3 Rain massacred Shuttle with just one DT early on. A scenario not uncommon on any level of gosuness in BroodWar. However, while watching the game ( VOD), I got an idea of what Shuttle could have done to mitigate the damage, in my opinion at least 50% up to potentially like 80% less workers lost. The idea is to jump workers over minerals, to a safe spot he already had available. Here's a picture. Shuttle had plenty of time to jump the workers over in case he wanted to. Here's when things happened: - 5:44 Shuttle notices a DT in his natural
- 5:48 Shuttle has blocked the ramp with Dragoons
- 5:50 DT hits a Dragoon on ramp, announcing that the ramp will be breached
*here's when he could've started transfering probes behind the minerals*
- 5:54 DT is in the main base
- 5:59 DT kills the first probe
- 6:40 by now DT has killed a total of 18 workers, before dying.
This seems to me like one of the best possible moves against a DT in your mineral line, what do you think? Note: Shuttle also had a shuttle to use to save the probes (by transferring them behind minerals or keeping some of them inside), but that's not the idea of this topic. I'm interested in discussing the idea of mineral-jumping to the safe area behind the minerals, which is something that could be utilized in every game, while shuttle use is situational.
|
the probes are safe if they jump over. the mineral lines. now how do you gather minerals if they are all stuck? Sure you can try to hop them back over, but what about the ones that dont hop over?
|
United Kingdom12011 Posts
On April 24 2018 03:17 art_of_turtle wrote: the probes are safe if they jump over. the mineral lines. now how do you gather minerals if they are all stuck? Sure you can try to hop them back over, but what about the ones that dont hop over?
All but 1 would jump over, which all in all I guess is better than losing 20 probes
|
Pretty good idea if u can get the smooth pathing where the probes actually move in the way you direct them. I've usually seen no more then 5-6 probes fit into a tight space that small, and then getting them back over would be a pain too. Better then them all dying though and god forbid the guys got a high templar with storm in his shuttle
|
On April 24 2018 03:17 art_of_turtle wrote: the probes are safe if they jump over. the mineral lines. now how do you gather minerals if they are all stuck? Sure you can try to hop them back over, but what about the ones that dont hop over? I suppose you didn't notice the shuttle visible on the picture.
|
On April 24 2018 03:17 art_of_turtle wrote: the probes are safe if they jump over. the mineral lines. now how do you gather minerals if they are all stuck? Sure you can try to hop them back over, but what about the ones that dont hop over?
Just kill the blocking pylon once the DTs are gone.
|
rather than have to shuttle in and out or kill his own buildings, he shouldve drilled to his nat minerals and from there out into the map until his ob was near done, then come back. better to have probes outside the main than no probes at all, he had enough goon control mid map that they werent going to get picked off, and he couldve re blocked his ramp from the dt so they wouldnt get chased
|
I still don't get the point of his build. Afaik: DT < 2gate obs < 3gate < DT. Where does 2 gate no-obs reaver fit in this? It just takes the spot of 3 gate, imho. I'm no P though.
|
That's actually a pretty good idea. In Shuttle's case however he pulled the probes and just... let them sit. No idea what was going through his mind. Actually he could've gone safe observer since he killed enemy goons, blocked the DTs with his goons without moving them, and had the probes run about after pulling them from the mineral lines. As others have posted, he also has a goddamn shuttle.
No idea what Shuttle was thinking.
|
|
Cool idea and all but shuttle could've done many things to prevent the damage. A basic one is having vision of minerals outside of his base(with a pylon for example), even his nat is perfectly fine for this purpose. With that he simply could've clicked his probes to the mineral line he had vision of losing maybe 2 probes tops.
It would be sick to see someone protect their probes with a pylon to wall them behind the minerals though. The probe jumping thing is pretty bad , easy targets while the probes glitched all over the place unless you get lucky.
You see dt coming when it hits your ramp wall of goons (you don't fuck it up royally like shuttle...) it would take a lot of box+ clicks but you could get them to the lower right part of the minerals(in this example, basically closer to the backside of the mineral patch), then with the right target they should mine from the back of the minerals. Then you build your pylon to wall them in. Then simply kill pylon after your ob finally comes out. It sounds easy to do but it would be extremely hard, but if someone could pull it off it would look so damn sexy especially on tv
Its a lot easier though to just have a pylon somewhere and click them all out of your base right away(aka better, but not as stylish )
|
On April 24 2018 15:14 RWLabs wrote: That's actually a pretty good idea. In Shuttle's case however he pulled the probes and just... let them sit. No idea what was going through his mind. Actually he could've gone safe observer since he killed enemy goons, blocked the DTs with his goons without moving them, and had the probes run about after pulling them from the mineral lines. As others have posted, he also has a goddamn shuttle.
No idea what Shuttle was thinking. To be honest at several times during this series it seemed like shuttle was trying to throw the game...I'm not even joking. Not to mention Rain's reaction to his reaver in game 2. You can make all the excuses you want for him but it's just shit play when it comes down to it. You don't expect to see that slow of probe pull at this level.
Another example was how he microed against Rain's drops in his main on sparkle. Everything so clumped against reavers, no effort to run his very valueable DAs away. The total fuck up at blocking his ramp with goons in the other game.
The entire series was pretty garbage to be honest. Really basic mistakes from both sides(mainly Shuttle) that you don't expect from progamers. Not saying it wasn't entertaining but really that kind of performance isn't going to cut it in the ro4 no matter who makes it through. I see Rain struggling unless he steps it up.
|
edit: I just read TheFoReveRwaR's first post and I realize what I say below is pretty identical to what he said, just rephrased haha. (I wrote my post before reading his!)
I feel the better implementation of this idea would be to leave the pylon (or other blocking building, cybernetics core in the picture above) unbuilt. Then if dt's are coming you stack and move your workers behind the mineral line and begin building the pylon (or other blocking building). This is faster, less apm intensive, and saves all the workers in just about 4 or 5 clicks. I don't think trying to jump probes over like that is realistic since you will still be losing tons of probes (can't jump them all).
Honestly, even the above doesn't seem that necessary if the player has vision of another mineral patch because he can just stack and run probes back between the other patch and a patch in his main until an obs/cannon is completed. Maybe lose a few probes this way, but not THAT many.
|
Yeah that was some very strange plays. I can't even explain that mistake by Rain on game 2... it was so strange. He saw the shuttle and he has 2 goons in position but then he moved all the goons on the ramp completely ignoring the reaver... by the time he react he loses so much probes... really so stramge maybe he messed up with something
|
On April 24 2018 00:31 niteReloaded wrote:This post comments on a game between Shuttle and Rain. + Show Spoiler +Hey, While watching the Shuttle vs Rain match, in game 3 Rain massacred Shuttle with just one DT early on. A scenario not uncommon on any level of gosuness in BroodWar. However, while watching the game ( VOD), I got an idea of what Shuttle could have done to mitigate the damage, in my opinion at least 50% up to potentially like 80% less workers lost. The idea is to jump workers over minerals, to a safe spot he already had available. Here's a picture. Shuttle had plenty of time to jump the workers over in case he wanted to. Here's when things happened: - 5:44 Shuttle notices a DT in his natural
- 5:48 Shuttle has blocked the ramp with Dragoons
- 5:50 DT hits a Dragoon on ramp, announcing that the ramp will be breached
*here's when he could've started transfering probes behind the minerals*
- 5:54 DT is in the main base
- 5:59 DT kills the first probe
- 6:40 by now DT has killed a total of 18 workers, before dying.
This seems to me like one of the best possible moves against a DT in your mineral line, what do you think? Note: Shuttle also had a shuttle to use to save the probes (by transferring them behind minerals or keeping some of them inside), but that's not the idea of this topic. I'm interested in discussing the idea of mineral-jumping to the safe area behind the minerals, which is something that could be utilized in every game, while shuttle use is situational. I like the idea but honestly I think just running them to the natural would have been better.
|
This is kind of a retarded thread, the easiest way to defend dts is to, 1) have cannon turret,overlord, and some hydra, vulture, dragoon, whatever your race mid tier ground unit. Workers will never beat dts 1-on-1 due to DT 1shotting them with their high damage. Just get detection
User was warned for this post.
|
On April 29 2018 12:14 funnybananaman wrote: This is kind of a retarded thread, the easiest way to defend dts is to, 1) have cannon turret,overlord, and some hydra, vulture, dragoon, whatever your race mid tier ground unit. Workers will never beat dts 1-on-1 due to DT 1shotting them with their high damage. Just get detection When going robo builds, just get observer. For cannons you need also a forge.
In the match that OP was talking about, Shuttle took a risk and skipped the observer for a faster reaver. Sometimes it happens. And sometimes you get busted by 3 or 4gate dragoons while you're teching to observers, so going fast detection is not always the best answer. 3gate dragoons are actually quite popular on reverse ramp maps, like the one which the match was played on.
Not only Shuttle went for robotics support bay before observatory, he let the DT in after only taking 3 or 4 hits with his dragoons that were blocking the ramp and didn't do too good job on microing his workers.
It's not that hard to glitch workers through mineral line, but when there is limited space behind them, the workers get easily clumped and glitches back to the frontside so I'm not convinced about this techique before I see it happen.
|
Glitching units can be laborious and inconsistent, as we saw in Jaedong's Ro16 game on Third World. Sometimes it's necessary, and I like the creativity behind this idea, but I agree with the poster above who said Shuttle should just have transferred his workers to the natural and then to another mineral line if necessary. (The dragoon blockade at the ramp was also lacking, although I realize that's beside the point.)
Is there any way to build a simcity that, with the addition of a single building at a moment's notice, can lock a DT out of a mineral line? Protoss players often use this locking tactic against vultures, but DTs can slip through smaller gaps. Still, if a method could be figured out, it could provide extra insurance against DTs.
|
On April 29 2018 21:55 Piste wrote: [...]I'm not convinced about this techique before I see it happen. maybe i'll make a video..
On April 30 2018 12:17 Djabanete wrote: Glitching units can be laborious and inconsistent, as we saw in Jaedong's Ro16 game on Third World. Sometimes it's necessary, and I like the creativity behind this idea, but I agree with the poster above who said Shuttle should just have transferred his workers to the natural and then to another mineral line if necessary. (The dragoon blockade at the ramp was also lacking, although I realize that's beside the point.)
Is there any way to build a simcity that, with the addition of a single building at a moment's notice, can lock a DT out of a mineral line? Protoss players often use this locking tactic against vultures, but DTs can slip through smaller gaps. Still, if a method could be figured out, it could provide extra insurance against DTs.
Yes, as TheFoReveRwaR and Jonoman92 said, if we are talking about general PvPs, then one of the 2 buildings closing the minerals can simply be ommited, and the path behind minerals is then like an open garage. In case of emergency, put probes there, and lock 'em up with a pylon
I wanna see it in a big match :D
Transferring probes to the natural is a good solution obviously, it's always decent. However it can still go wrong if there are other DTs around.
|
On May 01 2018 19:54 niteReloaded wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2018 21:55 Piste wrote: [...]I'm not convinced about this techique before I see it happen. maybe i'll make a video.. Please do! I dont have bw installed myself so I cant test if it's that easy to glitch 20+ probes there without some of them glitching back. The space seems so small. I can definitely see this being viable way for saving workers on maps where theres more space behind minerals. Like on outsider where it's normally done.
|
|
|
|