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when you go back home,take my song with you,but you never take your smile away. tomorrow this song will be heard,every corner of the world, tomorrow this smile will be flowers,blossom in the springtime.
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How sad, both Lyn and Xigua out now
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On April 13 2012 01:45 Eee wrote:How sad, both Lyn and Xigua out now True. I wanted to see how good Lyn is nowadays.
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On April 13 2012 04:05 TR wrote:True. I wanted to see how good Lyn is nowadays. He didn't drop a single series in his group and went 6-0.
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Saw the XiGua vs. Lovecd series because I wanted to know how the the best zerg in China crumbled 0-3 to Protoss at a time when Stephano's three hatch style is demolishing foreigner Protoss everywhere. I was going to use Stephano vs. TT1 as a comparison, but NASL hasn't released their VODs yet. Decided to use TangSC's guide on 3 hatch openings - which is the strategy XiGua went all three games - instead:
3:15-3:45 First expansion hatchery begins 4:00-5:00 Second expansion hatchery begins 6:00 Double Gas Geysers 7:00 Roach Warren and Evolution Chamber 7:20 Lair and 3rd Gas Geyser 8:15 Roach Production and 4th Gas Geyser with ~60 Drones 9:00-10:00 Roaches, Speed, 4th Base 11:00 Roach/Ling Aggression with +1 (No additional gas) 12:00+ Start a Macro Hatch and Max Out (Assuming minimal army casualties)
First game on Bel'Shir, XiGua had three hatches down around 4:10, but at the 7:50 mark he had a total of 50 supply, with ~6 of those in the ~12 slow lings he made after seeing an un-greedy forge fast expand from Lovecd. With 3-4 queens, this is ~36-38 drones. At 8:00 he started 11 drones and 6 more zerglings, putting his supply at 64.
This means he had a total of ~50 drones at the 9:00 mark, which is when Lovecd's +1 warp prism harass hit, followed by a +1/+1 2 base warp prism zealot stalker all-in at 10:00, using the warp prism to lift units into XiGua's main rather than going by creep. Right before this, XiGua made the inexplicable decision of putting down a spire after making a total of two roaches; he was researching +1 ranged attack and roach speed. He GG'd shortly after as his roaches were not able to come out fast enough to stop the 2 base all-in.
Second game on Daybreak, exact same build from XiGua but he got the lings a bit later. He still only had about ~50 drones at the 9:00 mark, but built roaches. Lovecd did the smart thing and did not use the same all-in, but continued to warp prism harass while he built up to hit a 2-base immortal all-in. XiGua was at 170 supply at 12:00 when he took the fight to Lovecd though he didn't see a third base. His forces engaged right outside the rock ramp on Daybreak 170 supply vs. 110 with several immortals and got crushed by good FFs - I don't think Lovecd's supply dropped below 100 during the fight while XiGua dropped from 170 to 120. Though he didn't kill Lovecd's units at all during the first attack, he threw another wave of units at Lovecd at the same location for the same result. Lovecdd pushed afterwards for the GG.
Third game on Antiga, XiGua's third hatch was a bit delayed this game and he started it up around 4:50. He had 53 supply at 8:00, once again with about 6 supply of that tied in slow lings -> ~40 drones. He failed to scout out a pylon right below his main base's ledge on Antiga and Lovecd managed to do a void ray + zealot attack from that location, but as XiGua was building roaches the attack didn't do damage. XiGua drops a hydra den and makes a couple of hydras, then again puts down a spire and builds no units with it. But because of Lovecd's failed attack, it was 170 supply vs. 95 and XiGua had hydras vs. no colossi tech.
Lovecd, however, decided that XiGua was bad and moved out on the map with his measly force of about 10-12 stalkers, refused to engage XiGua's giant army, blinked up into XiGua's main base with a warp prism carrying sentries, put down force fields at the ramp and basically took out all of XiGua's main. XiGua sat outside his own base with his units for about a minute before deciding to counter-attack, then hesitated and pulled back half way across the map when Lovecd moved his army down from XiGua's main to attack his nat, engaging with half his army before the other got there, and lost 30-40 supply in units before Lovecd ran out of FFs and blinked out.
Lovecd then built colossi and A-moved for the GG.
Thoughts:
TLDR - XiGua, learn to macro.
Un-harassed, Stephano is able to hit 200/200 at the ~11:00 mark with roaches, with +1 and roach speed before 12:00. 60 drones - the goal given in TangSc's guide for the ~8:00 mark - is a foreigner Masters level count. Having 53 supply at 8:20 is atrocious, and means that you made too many lings early on and failed on your macro besides. Without 70-80 drones around the 10:00-11:00 mark, you don't have the resources to max out by 12:00, and that's why XiGua got crushed every single game by two base all-ins.
Lovecd didn't play amazing. He had good unit control and okay tactics, but his timing was hampered by going safe, standard forge fast expand every game - no attempt at a nexus first, which given the way XiGua played was a great way to exploit the meta-game - was made. Lovecd is a Protoss that I think has a good shot against the average pro foreigner Zerg because his two-base all-ins are dangerous and they are well-executed. Without the balls to go nexus first, however, players around the caliber of Stephano are going to crush him once they understand how he plays.
XiGua, though, made Zerg look bad in the mid-game with a three hatch build, which I didn't think was doable. We're talking about below IdrA level ZvP here, and unless XiGua was meta-gaming Lovecd hard and making those 12 zerglings every game because he thought Lovecd was going to 4 gate, I don't see how he is going to be successful vs. the average foreigner Protoss pro. Seriously, that was embarassing ZvP, and XiGua has a long way to go in that match-up.
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YES! Tapping into the Chinese market is HUGE, hopefully this is successful and we will see more Chinese players and tournaments.
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On April 13 2012 04:20 Eee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 04:05 TR wrote:On April 13 2012 01:45 Eee wrote:How sad, both Lyn and Xigua out now True. I wanted to see how good Lyn is nowadays. He didn't drop a single series in his group and went 6-0.
7-0. Total scores 14win4lose in these 7 BO3s,favored to win the championship.
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On April 13 2012 09:06 Azarkon wrote:Saw the XiGua vs. Lovecd series because I wanted to know how the the best zerg in China crumbled 0-3 to Protoss at a time when Stephano's three hatch style is demolishing foreigner Protoss everywhere. I was going to use Stephano vs. TT1 as a comparison, but NASL hasn't released their VODs yet. Decided to use TangSC's guide on 3 hatch openings - which is the strategy XiGua went all three games - instead: Show nested quote + 3:15-3:45 First expansion hatchery begins 4:00-5:00 Second expansion hatchery begins 6:00 Double Gas Geysers 7:00 Roach Warren and Evolution Chamber 7:20 Lair and 3rd Gas Geyser 8:15 Roach Production and 4th Gas Geyser with ~60 Drones 9:00-10:00 Roaches, Speed, 4th Base 11:00 Roach/Ling Aggression with +1 (No additional gas) 12:00+ Start a Macro Hatch and Max Out (Assuming minimal army casualties)
First game on Bel'Shir, XiGua had three hatches down around 4:10, but at the 7:50 mark he had a total of 50 supply, with ~6 of those in the ~12 slow lings he made after seeing an un-greedy forge fast expand from Lovecd. With 3-4 queens, this is ~36-38 drones. At 8:00 he started 11 drones and 6 more zerglings, putting his supply at 64. This means he had a total of ~50 drones at the 9:00 mark, which is when Lovecd's +1 warp prism harass hit, followed by a +1/+1 2 base warp prism zealot stalker all-in at 10:00, using the warp prism to lift units into XiGua's main rather than going by creep. Right before this, XiGua made the inexplicable decision of putting down a spire after making a total of two roaches; he was researching +1 ranged attack and roach speed. He GG'd shortly after as his roaches were not able to come out fast enough to stop the 2 base all-in. Second game on Daybreak, exact same build from XiGua but he got the lings a bit later. He still only had about ~50 drones at the 9:00 mark, but built roaches. Lovecd did the smart thing and did not use the same all-in, but continued to warp prism harass while he built up to hit a 2-base immortal all-in. XiGua was at 170 supply at 12:00 when he took the fight to Lovecd though he didn't see a third base. His forces engaged right outside the rock ramp on Daybreak 170 supply vs. 110 with several immortals and got crushed by good FFs - I don't think Lovecd's supply dropped below 100 during the fight while XiGua dropped from 170 to 120. Though he didn't kill Lovecd's units at all during the first attack, he threw another wave of units at Lovecd at the same location for the same result. Lovecdd pushed afterwards for the GG. Third game on Antiga, XiGua's third hatch was a bit delayed this game and he started it up around 4:50. He had 53 supply at 8:00, once again with about 6 supply of that tied in slow lings -> ~40 drones. He failed to scout out a pylon right below his main base's ledge on Antiga and Lovecd managed to do a void ray + zealot attack from that location, but as XiGua was building roaches the attack didn't do damage. XiGua drops a hydra den and makes a couple of hydras, then again puts down a spire and builds no units with it. But because of Lovecd's failed attack, it was 170 supply vs. 95 and XiGua had hydras vs. no colossi tech. Lovecd, however, decided that XiGua was bad and moved out on the map with his measly force of about 10-12 stalkers, refused to engage XiGua's giant army, blinked up into XiGua's main base with a warp prism carrying sentries, put down force fields at the ramp and basically took out all of XiGua's main. XiGua sat outside his own base with his units for about a minute before deciding to counter-attack, then hesitated and pulled back half way across the map when Lovecd moved his army down from XiGua's main to attack his nat, engaging with half his army before the other got there, and lost 30-40 supply in units before Lovecd ran out of FFs and blinked out. Lovecd then built colossi and A-moved for the GG. Thoughts:TLDR - XiGua, learn to macro. Un-harassed, Stephano is able to hit 200/200 at the ~11:00 mark with roaches, with +1 and roach speed before 12:00. 60 drones - the goal given in TangSc's guide for the ~8:00 mark - is a foreigner Masters level count. Having 53 supply at 8:20 is atrocious, and means that you made too many lings early on and failed on your macro besides. Without 70-80 drones around the 10:00-11:00 mark, you don't have the resources to max out by 12:00, and that's why XiGua got crushed every single game by two base all-ins. Lovecd didn't play amazing. He had good unit control and okay tactics, but his timing was hampered by going safe, standard forge fast expand every game - no attempt at a nexus first, which given the way XiGua played was a great way to exploit the meta-game - was made. Lovecd is a Protoss that I think has a good shot against the average pro foreigner Zerg because his two-base all-ins are dangerous and they are well-executed. Without the balls to go nexus first, however, players around the caliber of Stephano are going to crush him once they understand how he plays. XiGua, though, made Zerg look bad in the mid-game with a three hatch build, which I didn't think was doable. We're talking about below IdrA level ZvP here, and unless XiGua was meta-gaming Lovecd hard and making those 12 zerglings every game because he thought Lovecd was going to 4 gate, I don't see how he is going to be successful vs. the average foreigner Protoss pro. Seriously, that was embarassing ZvP, and XiGua has a long way to go in that match-up.
Its not the balls to go nexus first, its very risky to go nexus first on maps like belshir, antiga and daybreak. Especially antiga and belshir where a 6 pool/10 pool will just plain kill you since you cant wall off the front and you have to play from very very behind if u nexus first against them.
XiGua normally have way better macro than this, i guess he is nervous and off-form. And Lovecd sort of have an image of being like SK.MC of being a very aggressive 2 base timings player so i think XiGua may be afraid of all the sheninigans and played a little too safe(underdroned).
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what were todays results? edit: sorry, saw the OP now. MacSed
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On April 13 2012 14:00 warcralft wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 09:06 Azarkon wrote:Saw the XiGua vs. Lovecd series because I wanted to know how the the best zerg in China crumbled 0-3 to Protoss at a time when Stephano's three hatch style is demolishing foreigner Protoss everywhere. I was going to use Stephano vs. TT1 as a comparison, but NASL hasn't released their VODs yet. Decided to use TangSC's guide on 3 hatch openings - which is the strategy XiGua went all three games - instead: 3:15-3:45 First expansion hatchery begins 4:00-5:00 Second expansion hatchery begins 6:00 Double Gas Geysers 7:00 Roach Warren and Evolution Chamber 7:20 Lair and 3rd Gas Geyser 8:15 Roach Production and 4th Gas Geyser with ~60 Drones 9:00-10:00 Roaches, Speed, 4th Base 11:00 Roach/Ling Aggression with +1 (No additional gas) 12:00+ Start a Macro Hatch and Max Out (Assuming minimal army casualties)
First game on Bel'Shir, XiGua had three hatches down around 4:10, but at the 7:50 mark he had a total of 50 supply, with ~6 of those in the ~12 slow lings he made after seeing an un-greedy forge fast expand from Lovecd. With 3-4 queens, this is ~36-38 drones. At 8:00 he started 11 drones and 6 more zerglings, putting his supply at 64. This means he had a total of ~50 drones at the 9:00 mark, which is when Lovecd's +1 warp prism harass hit, followed by a +1/+1 2 base warp prism zealot stalker all-in at 10:00, using the warp prism to lift units into XiGua's main rather than going by creep. Right before this, XiGua made the inexplicable decision of putting down a spire after making a total of two roaches; he was researching +1 ranged attack and roach speed. He GG'd shortly after as his roaches were not able to come out fast enough to stop the 2 base all-in. Second game on Daybreak, exact same build from XiGua but he got the lings a bit later. He still only had about ~50 drones at the 9:00 mark, but built roaches. Lovecd did the smart thing and did not use the same all-in, but continued to warp prism harass while he built up to hit a 2-base immortal all-in. XiGua was at 170 supply at 12:00 when he took the fight to Lovecd though he didn't see a third base. His forces engaged right outside the rock ramp on Daybreak 170 supply vs. 110 with several immortals and got crushed by good FFs - I don't think Lovecd's supply dropped below 100 during the fight while XiGua dropped from 170 to 120. Though he didn't kill Lovecd's units at all during the first attack, he threw another wave of units at Lovecd at the same location for the same result. Lovecdd pushed afterwards for the GG. Third game on Antiga, XiGua's third hatch was a bit delayed this game and he started it up around 4:50. He had 53 supply at 8:00, once again with about 6 supply of that tied in slow lings -> ~40 drones. He failed to scout out a pylon right below his main base's ledge on Antiga and Lovecd managed to do a void ray + zealot attack from that location, but as XiGua was building roaches the attack didn't do damage. XiGua drops a hydra den and makes a couple of hydras, then again puts down a spire and builds no units with it. But because of Lovecd's failed attack, it was 170 supply vs. 95 and XiGua had hydras vs. no colossi tech. Lovecd, however, decided that XiGua was bad and moved out on the map with his measly force of about 10-12 stalkers, refused to engage XiGua's giant army, blinked up into XiGua's main base with a warp prism carrying sentries, put down force fields at the ramp and basically took out all of XiGua's main. XiGua sat outside his own base with his units for about a minute before deciding to counter-attack, then hesitated and pulled back half way across the map when Lovecd moved his army down from XiGua's main to attack his nat, engaging with half his army before the other got there, and lost 30-40 supply in units before Lovecd ran out of FFs and blinked out. Lovecd then built colossi and A-moved for the GG. Thoughts:TLDR - XiGua, learn to macro. Un-harassed, Stephano is able to hit 200/200 at the ~11:00 mark with roaches, with +1 and roach speed before 12:00. 60 drones - the goal given in TangSc's guide for the ~8:00 mark - is a foreigner Masters level count. Having 53 supply at 8:20 is atrocious, and means that you made too many lings early on and failed on your macro besides. Without 70-80 drones around the 10:00-11:00 mark, you don't have the resources to max out by 12:00, and that's why XiGua got crushed every single game by two base all-ins. Lovecd didn't play amazing. He had good unit control and okay tactics, but his timing was hampered by going safe, standard forge fast expand every game - no attempt at a nexus first, which given the way XiGua played was a great way to exploit the meta-game - was made. Lovecd is a Protoss that I think has a good shot against the average pro foreigner Zerg because his two-base all-ins are dangerous and they are well-executed. Without the balls to go nexus first, however, players around the caliber of Stephano are going to crush him once they understand how he plays. XiGua, though, made Zerg look bad in the mid-game with a three hatch build, which I didn't think was doable. We're talking about below IdrA level ZvP here, and unless XiGua was meta-gaming Lovecd hard and making those 12 zerglings every game because he thought Lovecd was going to 4 gate, I don't see how he is going to be successful vs. the average foreigner Protoss pro. Seriously, that was embarassing ZvP, and XiGua has a long way to go in that match-up. Its not the balls to go nexus first, its very risky to go nexus first on maps like belshir, antiga and daybreak. Especially antiga and belshir where a 6 pool/10 pool will just plain kill you since you cant wall off the front and you have to play from very very behind if u nexus first against them. XiGua normally have way better macro than this, i guess he is nervous and off-form. And Lovecd sort of have an image of being like SK.MC of being a very aggressive 2 base timings player so i think XiGua may be afraid of all the sheninigans and played a little too safe(underdroned).
Well, now that I have NASL's VODs for TT1 vs. Stephano I have a better example of the timing at the pro-level.
Stephano Game 1 vs. TT1 -
Stephano puts down 3rd hatch at 4:40 due to TT1 building a pylon at the natural.
Stephano built 6 lings total at the beginning of the game.
7:00 - Stephano at 54 food -> ~48 supply in drones 7:30 - roach warren & speed research, delayed 30 seconds because he had map control with the lings 8:00 - Stephano at 66 food -> ~55 supply in drones, lair begins 12:26 - Stephano maxes out on roaches and zerglings, slower than normal because he stopped drone production at 60 to prepare for a 2-base all-in
Timing-wise, XiGua was about a minute behind Stephano in drone production and macro. SC 2 is a game of seconds, and being a minute off puts you way behind.
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it's BO5. Finals BO7 tomorrow.
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+ Show Spoiler +no chance for Toodming... wp LoveCD
now Loner vs F91, i expect more of that... should be less one sided. though i think F91 will win.
in terms of production value it almost feels like the GSL :D shame it isn't in the upcoming events thing. although i'm not sure if that twitch stream is legal or official ^_^
I love the player intros, lol. Feels like old BW intros.
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Wow, times flies. I got a little behind on my schoolwork writing up the interview on Loner, XiGua, and LoveTT, and now that I'm caught back up NSL is all of a sudden nearly finished!
Would be funny if LoveCD and Loner end up in the finals, they're roommates.
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On April 14 2012 20:05 Gaius Baltar wrote:Wow, times flies. I got a little behind on my schoolwork writing up the interview on Loner, XiGua, and LoveTT, and now that I'm caught back up NSL is all of a sudden nearly finished! Would be funny if LoveCD and Loner end up in the finals, they're roommates. All WE players live in the same teamhouse right?
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Yes, the 4 SC2 WE pros all live in the Shanghai teamhouse, and Loner and LoveCD share a room.
+ Show Spoiler +Turns out it will be a battle of the roommates in the final after all
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