Here is the replay that I recently played on Medusa. I go 3 Hatch while he goes Fantasy Mech. I've gotten Hydras just as he was about to drop but, he still caused some disturbance. Can you give tips on how to improve defending against the first vulture drop using the Fantasy Mech build.
So, I did double-expo like what I heard about Day[9]'s podcast against Mech. I mean, you need to expand and expand because Mech can't destroy all your expos. After I massed about 2 groups of Hydra and as he went to attack my 1 oclock expo, I went to counter-attack his base but sadly didn't do enough damage IMO. I managed to destroy some factories but he has also managed to get back in time after destroying an expo.
So, I went pure hydras and just went upgrading them but didn't bother to up my mutas. I managed to kill his 3rd base but the problem was that his mech army managed to caught my troops after they killed his expo. I tried to switch it up to mutas because I noticed that he has many tanks but failed, because I got 0/0 against his upped Gols. Which me leads me to the rant that ZvT Mech is kinda hard for Z because he has to upgrade both his hydras and mutas to fight off Gols/Tanks while T has only to upgrade his mech. Anyways, please watch the replay and pick it off apart. Thanks.
Thanks, Chill. I've watched already some games that follows Fantasy Mech Build. Like GGPlay vs Flash on Medusa where GGplay was able to almost get more than half of the map but, it was just straigh-up mech not fantasy mech. Just a quick question, do I get den first before Lair?
Yes you get den before lair with you first 50 gas, also you use it at your choke to form a partial wall with a sunken to block any early vultures.
I'm sick and about to go back to bed, I'm sorry I can't give a full length detailed explaination but since it took me a while to understand the early game slow and timings I figure why not share.
I choose to go a 3 hat varation, you need den before spire and 5-7 hydra (second gas right after lair) those hydra are not just for vultures they are also incase of wraith and any weird vulture/tank combo.
Now once you have the big down, then you either use those first hydras aggressively or to defend the chokes/ramps of the expos you decide to take. The key to beating the fantasy build is to punish it. When terran drops vultures in my base I already had a sunken out. ESP vs the fantasy build and ones like it using muta+ hydra early game can get you alot of auto wins.
Note my oppt isn't good the idea is to watch what I'm doing.
Alright, take this with a grain of salt, because I'm only D+ and don't have a whole lot of experience vs mech. That said...
oh also I'm not at a computer with SC installed so I can't watch your replay just now.
On April 29 2009 02:31 Batibot323 wrote: Here is the replay that I recently played on Medusa. I go 3 Hatch while he goes Fantasy Mech. I've gotten Hydras just as he was about to drop but, he still caused some disturbance. Can you give tips on how to improve defending against the first vulture drop using the Fantasy Mech build.
I guess my tip here is that you have to know it's coming. And you have to really be on the lookout to know WHERE it's coming from. Just having hydras in your base isn't enough, because it takes 11 hydra shots to kill 1 vulture. In the time it takes to get 44 hits in, he's gonna rape a lot of drones. So you need to watch very carefully and be right there, while he's unloading if possible. If this isn't realistic for you, and you're pretty confident fantasy build is what he's doing, make a sunk by your main minerals. 3 sunk shots to take out a vulture will make his harass shorter.
I did double-expo like what I heard about Day[9]'s podcast against Mech. I mean, you need to expand and expand because Mech can't destroy all your expos. After I massed about 2 groups of Hydra and as he went to attack my 1 oclock expo, I went to counter-attack his base but sadly didn't do enough damage IMO. I managed to destroy some factories but he has also managed to get back in time after destroying an expo.
I think counterattacking mech is a bad idea. Between walls and depots and sieged tanks and spidermines and SCVs (very effective at blocking hydras from reaching tanks) and active reinforcements coming from factories, I think you'll find you rarely do enough damage. Meanwhile, you're sure to lose the base he's attacking, and then since you lost your army in the counter attack, he can very quickly move to take out another base. The general idea AFAIK against mech is to expand a lot, and just wait for him to move out. This gives you a chance to flank/surround, catch him out of position, or hopefully engage while his tanks are unseiged. Don't move in when his tanks, mines, etc. are in a defensive position.
So, I went pure hydras and just went upgrading them but didn't bother to up my mutas. I managed to kill his 3rd base but the problem was that his mech army managed to caught my troops after they killed his expo. I tried to switch it up to mutas because I noticed that he has many tanks but failed, because I got 0/0 against his upped Gols. Which me leads me to the rant that ZvT Mech is kinda hard for Z because he has to upgrade both his hydras and mutas to fight off Gols/Tanks while T has only to upgrade his mech. Anyways, please watch the replay and pick it off apart. Thanks.
You need to have a healthy amount of mutas in order to keep his tank count from getting overwhelming.
On April 29 2009 04:29 Dromar wrote: Alright, take this with a grain of salt, because I'm only D+ and don't have a whole lot of experience vs mech. That said...
oh also I'm not at a computer with SC installed so I can't watch your replay just now.
On April 29 2009 02:31 Batibot323 wrote: Here is the replay that I recently played on Medusa. I go 3 Hatch while he goes Fantasy Mech. I've gotten Hydras just as he was about to drop but, he still caused some disturbance. Can you give tips on how to improve defending against the first vulture drop using the Fantasy Mech build.
I guess my tip here is that you have to know it's coming. And you have to really be on the lookout to know WHERE it's coming from. Just having hydras in your base isn't enough, because it takes 11 hydra shots to kill 1 vulture. In the time it takes to get 44 hits in, he's gonna rape a lot of drones. So you need to watch very carefully and be right there, while he's unloading if possible. If this isn't realistic for you, and you're pretty confident fantasy build is what he's doing, make a sunk by your main minerals. 3 sunk shots to take out a vulture will make his harass shorter.
I did double-expo like what I heard about Day[9]'s podcast against Mech. I mean, you need to expand and expand because Mech can't destroy all your expos. After I massed about 2 groups of Hydra and as he went to attack my 1 oclock expo, I went to counter-attack his base but sadly didn't do enough damage IMO. I managed to destroy some factories but he has also managed to get back in time after destroying an expo.
I think counterattacking mech is a bad idea. Between walls and depots and sieged tanks and spidermines and SCVs (very effective at blocking hydras from reaching tanks) and active reinforcements coming from factories, I think you'll find you rarely do enough damage. Meanwhile, you're sure to lose the base he's attacking, and then since you lost your army in the counter attack, he can very quickly move to take out another base. The general idea AFAIK against mech is to expand a lot, and just wait for him to move out. This gives you a chance to flank/surround, catch him out of position, or hopefully engage while his tanks are unseiged. Don't move in when his tanks, mines, etc. are in a defensive position.
So, I went pure hydras and just went upgrading them but didn't bother to up my mutas. I managed to kill his 3rd base but the problem was that his mech army managed to caught my troops after they killed his expo. I tried to switch it up to mutas because I noticed that he has many tanks but failed, because I got 0/0 against his upped Gols. Which me leads me to the rant that ZvT Mech is kinda hard for Z because he has to upgrade both his hydras and mutas to fight off Gols/Tanks while T has only to upgrade his mech. Anyways, please watch the replay and pick it off apart. Thanks.
You need to have a healthy amount of mutas in order to keep his tank count from getting overwhelming.
I was unaware it took 11 hits from a hydra to kill a vulture... I don't recommend a sunken whatsoever by your minerals... why not just save the drone and build another hydra that is mobile?
Every single mech build of every sort has a pre-8 minute weakness. Zerg MUST capatilize on them.
A sunken in you mineral line can save your ass. The C+/b- koreans don't just use the dropship once and with good vulture micro you are going to lose drones and hydra(mines) while 1 sunken forces the 4 vultures to either die quickly or move the other way. By you time to get more units.
Failure to make sunkens against mech is an easy way to auto loss to vulture harassment in any mech variation.
The build savior did against leta on tau cross is the same thing I aimed for except I used hydras aggressively since I was facing a vulture/dropship variation of mech.
Counter attacking midgame-lategame is very situational. It seems to me (just from personal experience) that counter attacking mech only works if 1) they are not already at one of your bases so they can potentially turn around and 2) they are only on 2 mineral patches/gases.
Those two guidelines are what I've learned from countless loses to mech.
On April 29 2009 04:54 [G4B2S]Tipsy wrote: If you know the other guy is going to drop it's a good idea to get burrow, you'll have the extra gas before a drop ship is out.
Don't listen to this.
Burrow is something you can consider after your third gas is up and running and you are facing a heavy vulture harrass playstyle. Not before.
On April 29 2009 04:29 Dromar wrote: Alright, take this with a grain of salt, because I'm only D+ and don't have a whole lot of experience vs mech. That said...
oh also I'm not at a computer with SC installed so I can't watch your replay just now.
On April 29 2009 02:31 Batibot323 wrote: Here is the replay that I recently played on Medusa. I go 3 Hatch while he goes Fantasy Mech. I've gotten Hydras just as he was about to drop but, he still caused some disturbance. Can you give tips on how to improve defending against the first vulture drop using the Fantasy Mech build.
I guess my tip here is that you have to know it's coming. And you have to really be on the lookout to know WHERE it's coming from. Just having hydras in your base isn't enough, because it takes 11 hydra shots to kill 1 vulture. In the time it takes to get 44 hits in, he's gonna rape a lot of drones. So you need to watch very carefully and be right there, while he's unloading if possible. If this isn't realistic for you, and you're pretty confident fantasy build is what he's doing, make a sunk by your main minerals. 3 sunk shots to take out a vulture will make his harass shorter.
I did double-expo like what I heard about Day[9]'s podcast against Mech. I mean, you need to expand and expand because Mech can't destroy all your expos. After I massed about 2 groups of Hydra and as he went to attack my 1 oclock expo, I went to counter-attack his base but sadly didn't do enough damage IMO. I managed to destroy some factories but he has also managed to get back in time after destroying an expo.
I think counterattacking mech is a bad idea. Between walls and depots and sieged tanks and spidermines and SCVs (very effective at blocking hydras from reaching tanks) and active reinforcements coming from factories, I think you'll find you rarely do enough damage. Meanwhile, you're sure to lose the base he's attacking, and then since you lost your army in the counter attack, he can very quickly move to take out another base. The general idea AFAIK against mech is to expand a lot, and just wait for him to move out. This gives you a chance to flank/surround, catch him out of position, or hopefully engage while his tanks are unseiged. Don't move in when his tanks, mines, etc. are in a defensive position.
So, I went pure hydras and just went upgrading them but didn't bother to up my mutas. I managed to kill his 3rd base but the problem was that his mech army managed to caught my troops after they killed his expo. I tried to switch it up to mutas because I noticed that he has many tanks but failed, because I got 0/0 against his upped Gols. Which me leads me to the rant that ZvT Mech is kinda hard for Z because he has to upgrade both his hydras and mutas to fight off Gols/Tanks while T has only to upgrade his mech. Anyways, please watch the replay and pick it off apart. Thanks.
You need to have a healthy amount of mutas in order to keep his tank count from getting overwhelming.
I was unaware it took 11 hits from a hydra to kill a vulture... I don't recommend a sunken whatsoever by your minerals... why not just save the drone and build another hydra that is mobile?
Your hydralisk has less HP, less range, and less damage than a sunken. Vultures will happily run around and away from a hydralisk or two or possibly just outright kill them. A group of 4 vultures is not going to kill a sunken period and generally people are scared to go near one of them.
Sunkens are pretty much required against any vulture heavy mech build. You save far more money than you lose in drone safety by building one.
On April 29 2009 04:29 Dromar wrote: Alright, take this with a grain of salt, because I'm only D+ and don't have a whole lot of experience vs mech. That said...
oh also I'm not at a computer with SC installed so I can't watch your replay just now.
On April 29 2009 02:31 Batibot323 wrote: Here is the replay that I recently played on Medusa. I go 3 Hatch while he goes Fantasy Mech. I've gotten Hydras just as he was about to drop but, he still caused some disturbance. Can you give tips on how to improve defending against the first vulture drop using the Fantasy Mech build.
I guess my tip here is that you have to know it's coming. And you have to really be on the lookout to know WHERE it's coming from. Just having hydras in your base isn't enough, because it takes 11 hydra shots to kill 1 vulture. In the time it takes to get 44 hits in, he's gonna rape a lot of drones. So you need to watch very carefully and be right there, while he's unloading if possible. If this isn't realistic for you, and you're pretty confident fantasy build is what he's doing, make a sunk by your main minerals. 3 sunk shots to take out a vulture will make his harass shorter.
I did double-expo like what I heard about Day[9]'s podcast against Mech. I mean, you need to expand and expand because Mech can't destroy all your expos. After I massed about 2 groups of Hydra and as he went to attack my 1 oclock expo, I went to counter-attack his base but sadly didn't do enough damage IMO. I managed to destroy some factories but he has also managed to get back in time after destroying an expo.
I think counterattacking mech is a bad idea. Between walls and depots and sieged tanks and spidermines and SCVs (very effective at blocking hydras from reaching tanks) and active reinforcements coming from factories, I think you'll find you rarely do enough damage. Meanwhile, you're sure to lose the base he's attacking, and then since you lost your army in the counter attack, he can very quickly move to take out another base. The general idea AFAIK against mech is to expand a lot, and just wait for him to move out. This gives you a chance to flank/surround, catch him out of position, or hopefully engage while his tanks are unseiged. Don't move in when his tanks, mines, etc. are in a defensive position.
So, I went pure hydras and just went upgrading them but didn't bother to up my mutas. I managed to kill his 3rd base but the problem was that his mech army managed to caught my troops after they killed his expo. I tried to switch it up to mutas because I noticed that he has many tanks but failed, because I got 0/0 against his upped Gols. Which me leads me to the rant that ZvT Mech is kinda hard for Z because he has to upgrade both his hydras and mutas to fight off Gols/Tanks while T has only to upgrade his mech. Anyways, please watch the replay and pick it off apart. Thanks.
You need to have a healthy amount of mutas in order to keep his tank count from getting overwhelming.
I was unaware it took 11 hits from a hydra to kill a vulture... I don't recommend a sunken whatsoever by your minerals... why not just save the drone and build another hydra that is mobile?
Your hydralisk has less HP, less range, and less damage than a sunken. Vultures will happily run around and away from a hydralisk or two or possibly just outright kill them. A group of 4 vultures is not going to kill a sunken period and generally people are scared to go near one of them.
Sunkens are pretty much required against any vulture heavy mech build. You save far more money than you lose in drone safety by building one.
To add to that, I'd build sunkens to DESTROY vultures and hydras to BLOCK vultures, especially at chokes to expos.
Against fantasy/vulture heavy mech, hydras are like range walls and sunkens are to be drone microed around to by time/destroy vultures.
If you lose ANY amount of drones early zvt against a vulture mech, you are already in a tough position going into a macro game. You must insure that you can whore up fast enough otherwise you'll never get an economy capable of defeating a gol/tank push anyway.
On April 29 2009 04:52 FabledIntegral wrote: I was unaware it took 11 hits from a hydra to kill a vulture... I don't recommend a sunken whatsoever by your minerals... why not just save the drone and build another hydra that is mobile?
Yeah I thought it only took 8 until I remembered hydras have explosive attack, so they deal 7.5 each hit, so it takes 11 hits.
Anyway, making a sunken is the way to save drones. Vultures can outrun hydras with minimal damage and end up making several passes by the drones before they die. You will lose at least one less drone by making a sunk, probably more.
It seems a hell of a lot harder on medusa and maps like it when they have the untouchable third. What pisses me off is that you pretty much have to wait around forever and ever and outlast them since attacking mech head on on medusa is total suicide and they've got minerals to last for a very long time. It seems like a lot of games I win pretty much every fight vs mech by a decent margin but then they macro up to 200/200 and we have 1 big clash where I lose the entire game. If they ever get and keep a 4th for a long time it doesn't seem like you can win at all.
On April 29 2009 09:22 Drowsy wrote: It seems a hell of a lot harder on medusa and maps like it when they have the untouchable third. What pisses me off is that you pretty much have to wait around forever and ever and outlast them since attacking mech head on on medusa is total suicide and they've got minerals to last for a very long time. It seems like a lot of games I win pretty much every fight vs mech by a decent margin but then they macro up to 200/200 and we have 1 big clash where I lose the entire game. If they ever get and keep a 4th for a long time it doesn't seem like you can win at all.
It does seem like that.
A few notes about Terran economics in general that might help you to view the matchup differently.
1) assuming relatively fast expansion build, terran should run out of both natural and main minerals between 17 minutes and 21. It changes depending on builds and when they call it 'saturation' ect. This mean that the harder you engauge them while preparing a 'next level' wave of tech in mass the quicker you'll run them dry. I believe terran can max on mech 1 1/2 times off of 2 bases. So that is roughly 120-130 mech units. While with even drone saturation amount all bases zerg can have there main still mining at the 20 minute mark. So if you have 4 or 5 bases, you truely have them, while terran might be on a 'forth' but really be on 2 patches / 2 gas, just like at the start.
2) terran cannot afford enough gols and/or tanks at the same time to deal with pure hydra/ling or pure mutalisks, this includes if they get sci or valks. So your setup play (earlymidgame) is to tech in the way you want them to counter first. I like facing goliaths earlier before my huge economy picks up, so I tend to open 3 hat muta/scourge while droning very hard. This way when they do move out with 16-20 gols (if they do) then they will have at most 3-4 tanks. Some zergs do this in the reverse and force tanks -> use mutas in the earlymidgame. Either way by doing this your not only are giving yourself a soft unit counter/advantage you are making your army more cost effective, and delaying the amount of time they are on those first two bases. This will also keep there gas reserve low, so science vessels stay on the back burner longer.
3) Terran cannot afford to max out quickly or even methodically when you force them to make turrets. Turrets for minor drop harassment and for muta. So consistent harassment which delays expansions,depots,turrets will accumuate into larger economic advantages.
4) terran cannot afford to EVER have the perfect unit combination to counter your army in multiple places. Since they will get a third you must force them to defend it with tanks and goliaths. Once they do you must punish them for it.
I look at ZvMech as a boxing match. Terran might threw in a few jabs here and there with vultures but overall he is aiming right for the chin, while zerg is the fast darty/dodging fighting that is trying to setup a combo move. Muta->hydra-ling->defiler/lurker -> muta 1 2 3 4 5 6 BAM.
So, basically it isn't a bad idea to put a sunken in my main to be more able to fend off the first vulture harass + that way if he wasn't cautious I can counter-attack with a few of my hydras to MAYBE destroy his wall?
@AttackZerg: Thanks for your replay, I'd go watch it after I get home. About counter-attacking, my problem there was when I counter-attacked, I get sandwiched by his tanks and Gols and I wasn't able to put up a good fight with my 2 groups of hydras except for did some damage but they'd all just die to tank fire.
Does anybody know after a series of Z switching up from hydras to mutas back and forth while T is trying to adapt by mixing his gols and tanks a bit too, how do you defeat 3/3 mech with 3/3 hydras and 0/0 mutas. Given that, he massed tanks because only your hydras are upgraded. Do you upgrade mutas as well? Get 2 spires?
As soon as your spire is done and you know its mech, start auto grading carpace, don't even think about it just do it. As soon as you put down your hydra den put down and evo for +1 hydra. Your job isn't to beat terrans grade, just keep up, alot like zvp.
Watch Jaedong vs Forgg on medusa, this game features ALOT ALOT of constant harassment/tech switching to beat a mech terran(he ops for the hydra opening variation I talked about above)
Rewatch the hyvaa video posted above, he uses every zerg unit except queens and ultras (which suck for the most part vs mech). IMO the one posted here is the highest all around vs mech play to date.
Savior vs upmagic on carthage. Savior goes for a more classic/tricky version of play. Muta -> some hydra -> expo->muta + hydra drop -> mass muta. This game really showcases the power of harrassment + tech switches also.
2 spires is a big investment I wouldn't recommend that. Never stop upgrading mutas. Defilers are your lategame obligation. Not for 1 or 2 swarms like lategame zvt but for 5-10 to swarm and entire area of the map and destroy him.
Yes about counter attacking like I said. Early on it can be good. Otherwise you must not overcommit to any aggressive action, esp with hydra, u'll pay for it all game!
EPT
