EPT[T] Jack of All Trades Mafia
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AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
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AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
I am sorry I'm late, but the game starts at 4:30 am in my time-zone. I'm not inclined to be an early riser and in any case for professional reasons that isn't an option. My work requires me to be rested during the day. So first off, before I post anything more substantive, I have a comment about the device. I see a very rapid bandwagon towards pressing it, which I don't really understand very well. The device is unknown and we have no idea what it's impact on the game will be, or whom it will favour. Most of the 'reasoning' I've seen for pressing it can be summarized as 'YOLO' or 'don't be pansy' and similar emotive appeals rather than any concrete reason. One sensible voice pointed out we should guard it until we are behind or doing badly and then press, but he didn't seem to be too invested in the whole issue and didn't pursue it much. He's dead right though; the device randomizes the game, and because town is majority, that itself makes it town favoured. The way we extract an advantage from the device is to gain the ability to randomize the game when it's going badly, not by just saying 'YOLO' and pressing a button, and I'm mildly suspicious of those who started this "PRESS" bandwagon. I really can't overstate the importance of this, and I really want a discussion of this issue and/or responses to it. I'm not attempting to deflect discussion away from the shot, and I'll comment on that in a bit, but this is an important issue and that's why I've dedicated a separate post to it. There is literally no reason not to vote GUARD on the device and I want those who are currently voting PRESS to explain their logic if any. | ||
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AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
On March 03 2015 10:12 Tubesock wrote: I like FF, HtS, and Rsoultin. It's wise to not town me just for being able to count. The rest I just need to see more. I don't really scum anyone at the moment. The only one I'm somewhat questioning is Slam and only because in some game awhile ago Koshi said that town slam makes no sense, while scum slam is coherent and slam is pretty coherent this game. But I liked his evolution of my idea. (his seemingly reluctant acceptance of it anyway). So your reasoning is that he sounds coherent and therefore he is scum because someone else said he's incoherent when he's town? If he's capable of being coherent, I can't see why he wouldn't be coherent when he's town. I'm also unsure why you aren't venturing any opinion or read of your own, but relying on some comment someone made on some other occasion? | ||
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AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
On March 03 2015 13:26 geript wrote: Holy shitpants of saying nothing. This guys is another good kill. Do you actually care to respond? I said a lot of valuable stuff and your attempt to dis it just portrays you as scum. Respond if you have any meaningful response? Also, if you could bother to read, I said I am separately commenting on the shot. | ||
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AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
On March 03 2015 13:35 geript wrote: Sure, you've talked about nothing of any sort of consequence in like the least meaningful way possible. Like there's nothing of any worth talking about there. We have ~18 hours until someone is going to get shot and you're worried about talking about something that nobody knows what the fuck it does. I will be happy to shoot you if this continues. Ok, so here's the thing, I've explained why it's of consequence. It gives Town (which I'm now doubting you are) a chance to come back if we're behind. That absolutely is of consequence. If you think not, please tell me why. Secondly, none of this is mutually exclusive with scum-hunting, which I said I would be posting on. Your attempt to get the device pressed and to avoid discussion of the topic is very scummy, because the device is unknown and hence chaotic, thereby favouring the scum. As Town we want the chaos only if/when we are losing. Of course you will be happy to shoot me. I am Town, I'm being constructive, and judging by this reaction as well your really suspicious plans and reasoning about how to decide a shot makes me very suspicious of you. Also, I am just as capable of shooting you, so that's an unproductive threat. | ||
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AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
On March 03 2015 13:51 geript wrote: Ok, so how do you know that it gives Town a chance to come back? How do you know that it doesn't just give mafia uber roles. From helping GreyMist with his upcoming game I have an idea of what it might be, but it's a semi-guess related to pregame. But I can assure you that it's either really, really bad if it's one of them or it's completely fucking random or it's really really bad. Regarding the device you're a fucking idiot if you want to keep talking about this shit. Because you know where this big pile of unknown is going to end us up at? Because I do. It ends up at not talking about HtS and me not being able to read her town games because I'm either talking to a dumbass or mafia. It ends up not talking about how Koshi is essentially repeating 2 of his previous mafia games. It ends us up not talking about how Rayn isn't gaming the system or coming up with some weird plan, or him reading Slam the same way as last game at almost an earlier point than he did that game AND WHERE SLAM WAS MAFIA, or with him not really talking about how Koshi's bully system (lynch any misshot on D2 regardless) is awful. It ends up with us not talking about LS who Damdred finds interesting. So basically it ends up with us not talking about actually important subjects. So motherfucker. What do you think about those actually important subjects which you have totally ignored? You seem to have skimmed along but don't even remember who was talking about what. Why? Why aren't you interested in who you're going to shoot or who you want to shot instead of this bullshit? How can you possibly think that I can even be mafia here? Are you like a complete noob or just terrible? Okay, I'm going to try and behave for now despite you acting like a prick. Don't test it though. Alright, I'll explain it so a Neanderthal can get it. Device is random. Possibility 1: We are losing and mafia gets uber roles. No harm, we were lost anyway. Possibility 2: We are losing and it helps Town. We gain something we wouldn't otherwise. Possibility 3: We just "PRESS" now (which is what I'm trying to stop). YOU claim the device is "either random or really bad", and therefore us pressing the device is a bad decision according to your own fucking Neanderthal logic. If you're being consistent WHY AREN'T YOU ARGUING AGAINST PRESSING THE DEVICE THAT YOU CLAIM IS SO BAD? What is more this decision matrix should be really obvious if you think about it for longer than 10 seconds, which is why just agreeing to guard will not waste time UNLESS you try and divert the issue by starting meaningless personal attacks and abusive behaviour. | ||
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AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
On March 03 2015 13:53 Damdred wrote: Theres really not much of a bandwagon to press it at this point honestly, i'm not sure even how many of us have messaged the host. I haven't as of yet. And geript is right though you are making a really wordy post without commenting on a lot of the other scum hunting that's going on in the thread Damdred, I already said I would be posting in depth on those issues as well. This is not mutually exclusive but what I'm really trying to drill into people's heads is that this device does matter, and I've posted below in a response to Geript as to why it does. | ||
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AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
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AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
On March 03 2015 13:59 Damdred wrote: ....we aren't even interested in talking about t device, fuck the device we are scum hunting to figure out a shot. I will yolo shoot you so please actually contribute now that you got that out of your system You should be, I've scum-read you as well now, because you insta-voted PRESS and are trying to avoid discussion. You are most likely scum as well, and I am just as willing to shoot you. Stop threatening the newbie. I ain't backing down to this behaviour. | ||
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AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
Every single time he's been Mafia he's far more aggressive and confrontational than he is as Town. Moreover his mafia games have him rapidly suggesting lynch targets and putting out scumpiles pretty quickly. As a mafia (and not as a Town) he invariably pushes multiple targets and acts aggressively. Here as well, he started pushing Koshi and the moment I made my post, his first reaction (even though I said I'm posting on shots as a follow-up) was to scumread me because my post was filler. It isn't filler, the first person to post after me recognized as such, and geript has gambled on being aggressive and unpleasant thinking that people will agree with him because I am new to this forum. Look at his main contribution in the thread. 1) He's tried to normalize the idea that there's no point in trying to reach a consensus on a shot because somebody will shoot anyway. What he's really trying to push though, is the idea that it's normal and ok for everyone to take a shot at 24 hrs and the reason he's doing this is because he doesn't want anybody to gain any information from the shot, which is why he's trying to press the line that there's no point reaching a consensus and then lynching anyone who breaks the consensus. 2) He's then tried to press the nonsensical idea of trying to hunt/lynch the 3P although that makes very little sense for reasons that have already been pointed out. 3) He tries to establish credibility by saying "these are the people I'm ok taking a shot". That doesn't prove anything though, especially since at this point he's done nothing useful except to try and debunk our most useful way of gaining information, which is to try and shoot the guy with the most votes. 4) He's been the one to try and turn the thread into a fight by abusing me (a fight he calculated he'll win because no one here knows me). | ||
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AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
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AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
On March 03 2015 15:07 geript wrote: Ok so let's talk meta. Every single time I've been mafia I've been far more confrontational? What games ahve I been mafia in? Have I never as town pushed multiple lynch targets at the same time? Like your meta of me is really, really fucking off. Explain your shit or die. Becuase I'm not going to get fucking mislynched again because some fucking scrub from some fucking scrubass site comes into my house and tries to lynch me. SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU SHITFACE. I'm not going to take being insulted by you just because I'm new to a site. You better behave with respect you prick. You started absuing me from the first post, and I'm not gonna stand and take it. The forum doesn't belong to you. | ||
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AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
On March 03 2015 15:10 Breshke wrote: 1) He suggested we nominate someone to shoot so i don't think that he is trying to avoid us lynching a consensus 2) He then later stated that he ment he doesn't care if we shoot mafia or 3p 3)Isn't trying to debunk any plan useful as it can show any weakpoints it has? Yes it could be frustrating but yeah. 4) I dont think this is true. Yeah vets seem to listen to other vets more than newbies but with geript gunning for some of them (rayn for example) how do you think he can count on them to back him? You say you are a newbie here yet you seem to think you know geripts meta fairly well which doesn't really add up. Also I don't like that you promised to talk about the shot before damdred started going hard against you which led me to believe you had thoughts on people other than him yet what you have posted is mostly from after you said you would give thoughts which leads me to believe you had nothing at the time yet you got angry at geript for not waiting for you to post. Im not sure if im making sense or not but if you could give reads on other people that would probably help. I spent the last 40 minutes combing the database for Geript's games. I'm new here it doesn't make me stupid. I'll respond to the rest after I've cooled down a bit, because Geript's abuse has rubbed me the wrong way. | ||
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AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
On March 03 2015 15:15 geript wrote: 1)How in the fuck am I even trying to normalize the idea of someone shooting at 24 hours? It's not like that's a new idea or unique to me. I'm also not trying to "make it okay" for anyone to shoot, a point which you bring up but dismiss out of hand. 2)I never said we should hunt the 3P. I said I'd prefer to lynch 3P than mafia on D1. Like that's really fucking obvious. Second, anyone who believes that a mafia shot over a 3P shot is preferable is a fucking retard and doesn't know how games like this go. Hell Toad's argument is literally, "Well in one game mafia were retarded enough to spend 3 kp on me." Yet in more games assassins/ninja's/dueling3P roles tend to fuck up town far more than help. Plus, with instant 2 shot KP on 2 different people, we can have exceptionally dangerous lynch situations ala Demon's run where Kita's shots threw shit all out of whack. 3. That's not even the point of having a list of people who I'm ok with being the shooter. The whole point is to have a town controlled shot and hold anyone not on that list uber responsible for their shit. Getting into a universally townread circle while still having to explain the shot is significantly harder than any of this "let's pretend it's a lynch" bullshit that most people will just fucking ignore. 4) There's no fight here. I'm a big boy and you're still wearing pullups. If you're town, then maybe you'd be able to realize why I'm town. Probably not by how you're talking. 1. You really were trying to make it okay to shoot. In fact, you've declared that's what you're going to do regardless. 2. You said "we should try to kill the 3P". Unless you have a way of doing so without finding them, yes you did argue for hunting them. 3. Let's pretend it's a lynch is close to "town controlled" than you making up your pseudo-version of who you think the town is and then giving them license to shoot. That model works much better for the mafia because they have perfect information and are much more likely to get a free kill with no risk. 4. This is exactly how you behaved in one of those games you were mafia. "I am the best player here" were your words in that game. You can get lost with your big boy rubbish, I'm not kow-towing to you so FO. | ||
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AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
On March 03 2015 15:18 geript wrote: Not me. Dude thinks he can walk in here and meta me all wrong. Like I don't think most of my scumgames even show up any more. Like he doesn't even take context of the thread into account at all. IDK man, dude walked in with a stick up his ass. You were the one who started abusing me for literally no reason. Imagine how you behave if I was the one who started the abuse? | ||
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AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
On March 03 2015 16:24 Tubesock wrote: I think Geript is moving the thread forward and critically thinking. To me it's more towny to say my vote idea is stupid and point out holes in it. Wouldn't that freak you out if everyone just blindly said "great idea! Let's do it!!"? There is value in playing devils advocate. I do agree with you Epiphany that he is being a meanie face to you. Now, toughen up, he's an asshole, so what? 1) I took from his objection is that we vote for someone to do the shooting and it could happen well after the deadline to be able to shoot. There is value in extending the day past just 24 hours. He seems to believe the players here won't just yolo shoot someone. Personally, I think some town is going to yolo and shoot another town. Hence, my idea. 2) He explained that in a perfect world it is better to shoot 3P instead of mafia today. Which i think is true, you get rid of 2 non towns. Easier to PoE. He also said hunting 3P is the same as Mafia, so no real difference. 3) These are reads, and towns are supposed to give reads. 4) uhhhh he and like pretty much everyone else in the thread thinks that talking about the device is worthless at the moment. Geript's actually argued that someone will surely shoot no matter what. I agree with you that somebody is going to shoot, no matter what. The thing Geript has opposed though is the idea of the town taking control of the shot and lynching the shooter if he misses. What I think is ideal is: Town decides who to shoot. If anyone shoots someone else, shoot them. This was the original suggestion. What Geript suggests is a combination of two things. 1) Geript shoots because he has "amazing townreads" according to himself (which is obviously not helpful if he is Mafia) 2) We nominate somebody to take a shot. Here's why the suggestion original suggestion is better than Geript's suggestions: Under Geript's model an individual gets to make a choice, with no accountability for this. This means that if the individual selected is innocent, that's no better or worse than the town taking a call on whom to shoot unless the individual is neccesarily better informed. If the individual selected is mafia, they basically get a confirmed free kill. An individual making a free call is strictly worse here. Note however, that the original model works well only if the two reaches a consensus on whom to shoot, and that players breaking the arrangement will be lynched. Geript argued that a town will disregard that and/or a mafia would shoot and WIFOM. The critical part is that Geript's reasoning is driving the thread towards a point where there won't be any consensus and then anybody can take a shot (which Mafia will) and not get lynched for shooting Town. Another crucial point, Geript's reasoning was that if a town is about to be shot under a consensus agreement, he will shoot someone else reasoning that it's better because he knows 100% he's innocent (FecalFeast also endorsed this). If you look a bit deeper though, if we have a 'lynch the shooter' policy, a Townie about to be shot should let himself be shot, because he's risking 3 Town deaths instead of one by randomly shooting into the crowd. That's not something a townie would do. We need to agree on the plan itself and not just on whom to shoot and Geript is forcing consensus away from this plan. The Mafia are favoured by any situation where there is no consensus on who is going to be shot and how that will be done. This is why he is trying to channel discussion away from this. | ||
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AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
On March 03 2015 17:04 Mocsta wrote: Worst post in the game by far. Doing a turbo read, and this thought certainly never entertained my thought process. translation You do realize I DID start calling out people, and what I did was the literal opposite of blending in? | ||
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AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
On March 03 2015 17:10 Mocsta wrote: Second worst post of the game. I must have won the lottery Of all posts to reply to, this fixation is odd? Perhaps they know each other, Slam is a scum buddy, or <insert other> (1) This is a nitpick statement (in line with this first post) that makes no attempt to harness information from Tubesock. (2) AT.Epiphany makes no attempt to call TS town or scum (yet calls out TS for not venturing a self-justified read) Classic contradiction. translation If you're actually town, you're not only an asshole, but you're an idiot, because you're spectacularly wrong. GJ jumping on a bash the newbie wagon if you're scum. | ||
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AT.Epiphany
India117 Posts
On March 03 2015 17:16 raynpelikoneet wrote: AT.Epiphany instead of throwing in the newbie card how about you explain how this is wrong instead? because that's what you are arguing for without saying why Mocsta is wrong here. First off, I'm not throwing the newbie card, literally Mocsta's entire post is about making fun of me being a newbie in his faux 'translation', so stop faking that accusation. Secondly, I'm not sure if he's scum or not, (which is why I didn't accuse him) but it does seem strange to me argue that Slam is scum because he is coherent. If he's capable of being coherent, there's no reason why he wouldn't be so as town and moreover what I objected to was that the only reasoning tubesock provided was "kochi said so this some other game" which is a very strange reason. | ||
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AT.Epiphany
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On March 03 2015 17:16 raynpelikoneet wrote: AT.Epiphany instead of throwing in the newbie card how about you explain how this is wrong instead? because that's what you are arguing for without saying why Mocsta is wrong here. Also, really, you try playing properly when every post about you is a moronic personal attack by people jumping on a bandwagon.... | ||
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