EPTCheers, Khaldor
CatZ CC first counter - a closer look at the build
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
Khaldor
Germany861 Posts
Cheers, Khaldor | ||
|
iyasq8
113 Posts
| ||
|
WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On maps like the first game, it should be possible to choke the natural with CC and rax to block off Ling reinforcements, which seems like it would change a lot of the early posturing (could also long distance mine from natural like this). More importantly, it seems like the first marines should be intercepting the two drones, because the spine crawlers are really the only thing allowing you to hold that proxy-hatch (without saccing all of your economy). Not sure how the timings would work out, but it seems like the first two marines should block the drones indefinitely, which gives you time to get a bunker up and at least 4 marines before Lings reach dangerous numbers. | ||
|
Shin_Gouki
United States313 Posts
| ||
|
PanzerElite
540 Posts
| ||
|
Magus.421
France159 Posts
On May 22 2013 15:41 PanzerElite wrote: If this is going to happen a lot on ladder, just 11/11 every zerg. You can also do a reaper opening. Or a 1 rax expand (because reaper opening on a 4 spots map is not very good). | ||
|
MarlieChurphy
United States2065 Posts
Another reaction in response to CC first, is just hatch cancel in a random place and make a pool on the 3x2. The opponent will see no pool in your main and no expansion and assume you proxy hatched or naked expo some random place. or they will see you hatch late (if they notice) and just assume you are bad or something. PS- Also, a key point that i don't think was addressed in the video is letting the scv take a swing at you before you are about to plant the hatch. The attack animation slows the scv enough to give you a big enough gap to drop the hatch if he is chasing you. And btw, you don't have to place the hatch exactly on the spot where he is going to CC, it just has to be partially covering. This may help in defending from certain ranges on specific maps, as well as creep spreading closer to his ramp or whatever. | ||
|
Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
It's also possible to hold by going 2 rax after CC and bunker-ing the hatch. | ||
|
saaaa
Germany419 Posts
and if you go cc first on the highground just check your nat if something like this is comming and place a bunker to hit the hatchery and you will be fine. If you don't scout it or scout it to late build a tank and you should be fine too, because most of the time will try to all-in you from this position with roach/ling/bling etc. | ||
|
MarlieChurphy
United States2065 Posts
Also, terrans should be savvy to this in general and just send 2 scv down in order to stop the hatch from planting in the first place. | ||
|
v0rtex
123 Posts
| ||
|
Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
 On May 22 2013 11:38 WolfintheSheep wrote: Just a bit of theory crafting against this... On maps like the first game, it should be possible to choke the natural with CC and rax to block off Ling reinforcements, which seems like it would change a lot of the early posturing (could also long distance mine from natural like this). Perhaps, but you still have a hatchery at your nat that can produce a queen and lings! If you move your CC and rax to block the nat (if the map permits it), you still need to protect your main. Re-walling off the main might be enough.... definitely something that's going to need some experimentation. The problem with lifting the rax is obviously that you have to cut marine production temporarily, which could be problematic. More importantly, it seems like the first marines should be intercepting the two drones, because the spine crawlers are really the only thing allowing you to hold that proxy-hatch (without saccing all of your economy). Not sure how the timings would work out, but it seems like the first two marines should block the drones indefinitely, which gives you time to get a bunker up and at least 4 marines before Lings reach dangerous numbers. The cast showed us that terran DID delay the spine crawlers by a lot because the two drones (attempting to morph) were undefended - but the terran had to fall back when the lings arrived, allowing the spines to morph. | ||
|
Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Both games were awful demonstration from the terran side being completely surprised by the sudden lings popping at the nat and arriving at the same time with the queen. Just multiple rax play beats this fine with a well placed bunker, of course it is very difficult thinking of that on the spot when you face this especially when you were set on going gas quickly after your first rax. Despite that CC first on the high ground is silly build imo, 1 rax FE is superior to it I think because the lost time flying your CC over and potentially defending drone harass is just not a good tradeoff for the faster CC. Why rush the CC when you're gonna waste so much time flying it over.. just get a rax first then.. 4p maps just go CC on the lowground, 2p maps just go something like 1 rax FE, reaper expand or whatever else you like. | ||
|
agahamsorr0w
Netherlands359 Posts
On May 22 2013 16:28 saaaa wrote: yeah this is annoying but everytime i faced this style i always win with a hard mech all-in, because he will delay your CC from landing etc but on the other side he will loose his hatchery and production capabilities and you can just take another mineralline (like near the rocks on akilion). and if you go cc first on the highground just check your nat if something like this is comming and place a bunker to hit the hatchery and you will be fine. If you don't scout it or scout it to late build a tank and you should be fine too, because most of the time will try to all-in you from this position with roach/ling/bling etc. go watch meta episode 4. if you look at the games he played you'll understand your arguments are completely nullified by catz's showed games. most ppl who place a comment should both watch the video and meta ep. 4. ive read some comments from terrans and it seems like none have taken the time to actually wath the video, where they already talk about responses from terran. | ||
|
Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/artosis/b/403669759 | ||
|
ILOVEWAR
Netherlands104 Posts
| ||
|
Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
On May 23 2013 00:36 ILOVEWAR wrote: euh... its not "new", I always block hatch,cc,nexus first with a e-bay... why an hatch? an evo is better though... An hatch block is only usefull when youre gonna "siege" opponent with spines en queens... Did you even finish watching the video before blurting out some words and hitting 'post'? | ||
|
Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
On May 23 2013 00:09 Markwerf wrote: CC first on the high ground is silly build imo, 1 rax FE is superior to it I think because the lost time flying your CC over and potentially defending drone harass is just not a good tradeoff for the faster CC. Why rush the CC when you're gonna waste so much time flying it over.. just get a rax first then.. 4p maps just go CC on the lowground, 2p maps just go something like 1 rax FE, reaper expand or whatever else you like. I'm a zerg, not a terran, but I assume the reason it's used is because the CC first gets you EDIT: corrected. | ||
|
netherh
United Kingdom333 Posts
On May 23 2013 00:54 Hairy wrote: I'm a zerg, not a terran, but I assume the reason it's used is because the CC first gets you a faster mule, and so it's probably economically superior to a 1 rax FE. The fact that CC first is a super common build among the best terrans in the world ZvT pretty much nullifies your arguments of it being "silly". Nope. You delay the main orbital with CC first, which nullifies getting the 2nd orbital faster. The only advantage of CC first is an extra ~3.5 scvs. | ||
|
JonIrenicus
Italy602 Posts
| ||
| ||
