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United States4883 Posts
On May 23 2013 01:21 netherh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 00:54 Hairy wrote:
I'm a zerg, not a terran, but I assume the reason it's used is because the CC first gets you a faster mule, and so it's probably economically superior to a 1 rax FE. The fact that CC first is a super common build among the best terrans in the world ZvT pretty much nullifies your arguments of it being "silly". Nope. You delay the main orbital with CC first, which nullifies getting the 2nd orbital faster. The only advantage of CC first is an extra ~3.5 scvs.
I don't want to get into a huge discussion since I haven't played terran in about a year. But from my experience, CC first and 1rax FE are worlds different in every way; to the point where comparing them doesn't even make sense. CC first ends up giving you a few more SCVs, faster MULEs (delaying the first orbital doesn't matter, you're still ahead in MULEs compared to 1rax FE), and extra marines. You have different points of vulnerability, different counts of marines, different counts of SCVs, different timings available to you, etc. The fact of the matter is that they are wildly and completely different builds. Saying that 1rax expand is just delaying your CC until AFTER a barracks is just not exactly right.
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Idk, when i would see the hatch i would wall my natural with my cc and a bunker/SD. (--> no lings from out side). Then i would use like 10 scvs and my marines to rape the spinecrawlers which arent ready.
Good luck taking a third base when i have my hellions.
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On May 23 2013 00:09 Markwerf wrote:
This is a total gimmick build relying on opponents being puzzled and not knowing what to do
This. Yesterday I defended it while going CC rax gas and not seeing the Hatchery until 4'. Continuous Marine production and bunkering the Hatchery is all it takes to stop this, plus pulling some SCVs if necessary to cancel any attempt of Spines. At best Zerg can drop one tumor with his Queen from the proxy hatch, but since you have two Orbitals you can easily get rid of it.
Despite that CC first on the high ground is silly build imo, 1 rax FE is superior to it I think because the lost time flying your CC over and potentially defending drone harass is just not a good tradeoff for the faster CC. Why rush the CC when you're gonna waste so much time flying it over.. just get a rax first then.. 4p maps just go CC on the lowground, 2p maps just go something like 1 rax FE, reaper expand or whatever else you like.
Even if you lose some time floating down the CC you're still ~2 SCVs ahead compared to gasless 1 rax FE.
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On May 23 2013 01:56 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 00:09 Markwerf wrote:
This is a total gimmick build relying on opponents being puzzled and not knowing what to do This. Yesterday I defended it while going CC rax gas and not seeing the Hatchery until 4'. Continuous Marine production and bunkering the Hatchery is all it takes to stop this, plus pulling some SCVs if necessary to cancel any attempt of Spines. At best Zerg can drop one tumor with his Queen from the proxy hatch, but since you have two Orbitals you can easily get rid of it.
You agree with him that it's "a total gimmick build", but in the very same post you recommend continuous marine production that could delay/disrupt your opening and tech, and pulling SCVs which disrupts your mining. You may "defeat" the proxy quickly, but was the delay/disruption worth it overall? e.g. A zerg who pulls 100% of his drones will "beat" a cannon rush, but he has boned himself in the long run. Also, even if you did truly come out on top after the opening kerfuffle, it's quite possible the zerg did not execute or respond to you well (it's only been "public" a few days, afterall). I wouldn't be so hasty to dismiss the build.
I'd be intrigued to see your replay.
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On May 23 2013 00:36 ILOVEWAR wrote:
euh... its not "new", I always block hatch,cc,nexus first with a e-bay... why an hatch? an evo is better though... An hatch block is only usefull when youre gonna "siege" opponent with spines en queens...
An evo cant spread creap nor produce queens. Creep takes a TON of time to be removed, evo just dies so easy and its not even worth for the minerals spendt.
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since this build excludes roaches from the early game, wouldnt making a third CC and only siege tanks and marines clear this fast enough?
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On May 23 2013 02:52 Hairy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 01:56 TheDwf wrote:On May 23 2013 00:09 Markwerf wrote:
This is a total gimmick build relying on opponents being puzzled and not knowing what to do This. Yesterday I defended it while going CC rax gas and not seeing the Hatchery until 4'. Continuous Marine production and bunkering the Hatchery is all it takes to stop this, plus pulling some SCVs if necessary to cancel any attempt of Spines. At best Zerg can drop one tumor with his Queen from the proxy hatch, but since you have two Orbitals you can easily get rid of it. You agree with him that it's "a total gimmick build", but in the very same post you recommend continuous marine production that could delay/disrupt your opening and tech, and pulling SCVs which disrupts your mining. You may "defeat" the proxy quickly, but was the delay/disruption worth it overall? e.g. A zerg who pulls 100% of his drones will "beat" a cannon rush, but he has boned himself in the long run. Also, even if you did truly come out on top after the opening kerfuffle, it's quite possible the zerg did not execute or respond to you well (it's only been "public" a few days, afterall). I wouldn't be so hasty to dismiss the build. I'd be intrigued to see your replay.
That actually isn't true. If he holds the cannon rush and doesn't lose any drones then he is actually ahead (protoss expansion is later as well as tech). If zerg loses 1 drone he is still ahead but zerg isn't boned if he defends without losing hatchery or many drones.
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On May 23 2013 00:09 Markwerf wrote:
This is a total gimmick build relying on opponents being puzzled and not knowing what to do, pretty much like proxy hatch/hatch blocking/evo blocking in PvZ.
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Of course it is, it's made by CatZ. What else do we really expect from him at this point?
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I doubt that half of the people commenting have really watched the video and understood what it's about. This is NOT designed to kill the terran. It's a small thing to do to get a LEAD in the game. If you get a freewin because the terran reacts the wrong way it's an added bonus but not the main intention. Watch the video before you reply
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Hey Khaldor -- can you maybe see if you can get a game between CatZ and someone who has done some research on how to react?
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On May 23 2013 01:56 TheDwf wrote:
This. Yesterday I defended it while going CC rax gas and not seeing the Hatchery until 4'. Continuous Marine production and bunkering the Hatchery is all it takes to stop this, plus pulling some SCVs if necessary to cancel any attempt of Spines. At best Zerg can drop one tumor with his Queen from the proxy hatch, but since you have two Orbitals you can easily get rid of it.
Post the replay? I don't see you killing his spines when speedlings are out with just marines off 1 rax.
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i think it's a great response to cc first on high ground and i don't think the terran can react in a way that puts him ahead.
i've been doing it since i saw it on meta and i honestly haven't lost a game where i've done it yet. feels like freewin
(top master)
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On May 23 2013 09:42 Khaldor wrote:
I doubt that half of the people commenting have really watched the video and understood what it's about. This is NOT designed to kill the terran. It's a small thing to do to get a LEAD in the game. If you get a freewin because the terran reacts the wrong way it's an added bonus but not the main intention. Watch the video before you reply
Why do you assume that just because people do not agree, they don't have enough information? There are very valid criticisms here.
You overall don't seem like a nice guy when people disagree with you. Just pointing that out so you know this and can change the impressions you give.
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On May 23 2013 08:50 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 02:52 Hairy wrote:On May 23 2013 01:56 TheDwf wrote:On May 23 2013 00:09 Markwerf wrote:
This is a total gimmick build relying on opponents being puzzled and not knowing what to do This. Yesterday I defended it while going CC rax gas and not seeing the Hatchery until 4'. Continuous Marine production and bunkering the Hatchery is all it takes to stop this, plus pulling some SCVs if necessary to cancel any attempt of Spines. At best Zerg can drop one tumor with his Queen from the proxy hatch, but since you have two Orbitals you can easily get rid of it. You agree with him that it's "a total gimmick build", but in the very same post you recommend continuous marine production that could delay/disrupt your opening and tech, and pulling SCVs which disrupts your mining. You may "defeat" the proxy quickly, but was the delay/disruption worth it overall? e.g. A zerg who pulls 100% of his drones will "beat" a cannon rush, but he has boned himself in the long run. Also, even if you did truly come out on top after the opening kerfuffle, it's quite possible the zerg did not execute or respond to you well (it's only been "public" a few days, afterall). I wouldn't be so hasty to dismiss the build. I'd be intrigued to see your replay. That actually isn't true. If he holds the cannon rush and doesn't lose any drones then he is actually ahead (protoss expansion is later as well as tech). If zerg loses 1 drone he is still ahead but zerg isn't boned if he defends without losing hatchery or many drones.
You are too used to thinking of things at a high level, blade55555 :D I guess my example wasn't clear enough. I was thinking more along the lines of a zerg pulling 100% of his drones to go on a wild goose chase vs a protoss just placing and cancelling pylons repeatedly 
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I remember when this happened to me way back in WoL.. I got steam rolled and i responded with immediate extra rax and raven for creep. I think if you don't scout the hatch you are going to be behind... zerg gets free reign of map for way too long...
Must be karma for all the x2 proxy rax Ts have been doing to Zs
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I've yet to lose with this strat. I feel like as long as zerg doesn't miss a beat a home, You should have full saturation on 2 base(including all 4 gases) when terran breaks through. Once you see their army killing your stuff, you respond accordingly to their current army(since their army is an image to their production buildings)
I've yet to play against a player who goes 6-7 rax though. I feel like that's the best response if there is one.
Also, perhaps fast banshee play? Not sure if it'd work that well though
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On May 23 2013 11:11 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2013 09:42 Khaldor wrote:
I doubt that half of the people commenting have really watched the video and understood what it's about. This is NOT designed to kill the terran. It's a small thing to do to get a LEAD in the game. If you get a freewin because the terran reacts the wrong way it's an added bonus but not the main intention. Watch the video before you reply Why do you assume that just because people do not agree, they don't have enough information? There are very valid criticisms here. You overall don't seem like a nice guy when people disagree with you. Just pointing that out so you know this and can change the impressions you give.
You don't get the point. I don't really care if people agree with this strategy being a good counter or not. I simply don't understand why some would harp on points that are clearly touched upon in the video. That indicates to me they haven't watched it before they posted. Same goes for others that don't seem to understand that this is not necessarily supposed to kill the terran right away. Nowhere in the video was claimed it would. It's pointed out several times that it's supposed to give you a lead, not an outright win.
Doesnt have anything to do with people agreeing with me or not. Not quite sure why you would say that in the first place? It's one thing to argue the strategy in itself and talk about possible counters but a completely different thing to claim it's supposed to do something that it's not.
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United Kingdom12071 Posts
The only huge problem with this is it's now being known as CatZ's CC first counter although I've seen this happen hundreds of times on ladder. I don't really think it's fair that people give him the credit for things people have done before him.
Either way, when I used to play CC first I used to have a bunch of trouble against this specific "cheese" I guess you could call it. It is a very nice reaction to take against a highground CC first and you can really, really be annoying with the creep and what have you. I think one of the better reactions could is to get a raven quite quickly to deal with the creep from a terran perspective.
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I played against this, can't remember who against some top 8 masters zerg...and I made the choice to simply get out tanks and marines and hold at my ramp when I saw the hatch nearly complete. Pretty big mistake since although I killed everything and got my third up fast enough, it took ages to clear out the creep from my nat and it was easily spread outward to my third/fourth etc.. My opponent dropped just before the main engagement but I looked at replay afterwards and I was way behind.
But really, my reaction was bad because I've never seen anything like it (I used to play protoss and yeah, I've been proxy-hatched by Catz and others, but as terran...never). If it happens again I'm confident I can easily hold it off with bunkers and marines, just gotta be decisive.
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If you do this build correctly you will get ahead or even win alot of games. But alot of zergs do this wrong and loses alot because of that... When i play vs this i just do a 1/1 mmm push and win, i know that its not supposed too work but it does
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EPT
