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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 30 2013 19:14 Homework wrote: As you say this, watch the GSL of 5/30. Observe MKP vs T8_True. Now, feel the burn of irony. 4 hatch before pool with no intention to do anything at Terran's natural ≠ 3 hatch before pool with a lings/spines/queen attempt. | ||
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LardMaster
United Kingdom123 Posts
On May 30 2013 19:16 Homework wrote: True just did in MKP vs True. He didn't build spinecrawlers with it but it allowed him to go to a very fast 3base. I just caught the end of that game and heard them talk about the opener but didn't actually see it. Would you be able to tell me the order TRUE did things in? Thanks man, I'm too poor for ticket  | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
what happens if the Terran just goes into standard hellions, runs the first 4 of them out and then fights a Zerg without speed and with no defenses at home? Like, wouldn't you just be able to kill every single drone in the main and natural with good hellion micro against a zerg who can only build slow zerglings and only has two queens at home? | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On May 30 2013 19:30 Big J wrote: so, I just saw the build for the first time in a game... what happens if the Terran just goes into standard hellions, runs the first 4 of them out and then fights a Zerg without speed and with no defenses at home? Like, wouldn't you just be able to kill every single drone in the main and natural with good hellion micro against a zerg who can only build slow zerglings and only has two queens at home? Why would you assume that you can't defend against hellion after CC first when you go 3 hatch before pool? | ||
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Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
On May 30 2013 19:30 Big J wrote: so, I just saw the build for the first time in a game... what happens if the Terran just goes into standard hellions, runs the first 4 of them out and then fights a Zerg without speed and with no defenses at home? Like, wouldn't you just be able to kill every single drone in the main and natural with good hellion micro against a zerg who can only build slow zerglings and only has two queens at home? I think the potential for doing damage is pretty high, but you would actually HAVE to do massive amounts of damage to make it worth it, given that you're A) making units that are terrible at killing buildings (to clear your nat) B) not using them to clear your nat | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 30 2013 20:16 Vanadiel wrote: Why would you assume that you can't defend against hellion after CC first when you go 3 hatch before pool? well, usually you defend those 3bases against hellions with 4-6queens and/or zergling speed. However, with the showcased build, you build a lot of zerglings early on and even spines. So it looks like you can't have speed out and you can't have more than 2queens at home (and also no creep spread at your homebases). I guess the tricky part is switching the barracks with the factory (zerglings could run in) for the reactor. Then running the hellions past the spine(s) and then having the army to still take out that proxy base at a reasonable time (probably switch back after 4hellions and start a tank with this setup). So, I guess that's why I'm asking if this is possible and what happens if 4hellions make it out on the map. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 30 2013 20:30 Big J wrote: well, usually you defend those 3bases against hellions with 4-6queens and/or zergling speed. However, with the showcased build, you build a lot of zerglings early on and even spines. So it looks like you can't have speed out and you can't have more than 2queens at home (and also no creep spread at your homebases). I guess the tricky part is switching the barracks with the factory (zerglings could run in) for the reactor. Then running the hellions past the spine(s) and then having the army to still take out that proxy base at a reasonable time (probably switch back after 4hellions and start a tank with this setup). So, I guess that's why I'm asking if this is possible and what happens if 4hellions make it out on the map. No, the creep would stay too long at your natural. You don't want to allow Zerg to settle down at all. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On May 29 2013 20:23 Hairy wrote: You are suggesting to blindly do a really early proxy against a terran who could be doing absolutely anything. "Knowing what's coming" doesn't exactly help if you can see what's coming but just punches you in the face and wins immediately anyway (eg proxy rax). There is a reason this is suggested only for against CC first, and that reason is because you know it's safe. Any one base push is holdable even with a proxy hatch and puts terran massively behind. Only exception is proxy rax, which you can scout before putting the proxy hatch (9 scout on 2 player maps). Additionally a build order loss like this can be acceptable as proxy rax is quite a gamble comparable to 6 pool and therfore not that popular. The pool timing is same like standard hatch first, you can defend a proxy hatch pretty much the same way as with standard hatch first (except that you can rally 6 lings from your proxy hatch into his undefended main :-) ). | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On May 30 2013 19:26 TheDwf wrote: 4 hatch before pool with no intention to do anything at Terran's natural ≠ 3 hatch before pool with a lings/spines/queen attempt. As pointed out in some posts, the Catz build (2 spines+queen) is one variant of nat-proxy hatching. Depending on terrans reaction it might be better to just do nothing at the proxy or even drone at the proxy (rallying to your nat ofc). going 4 hatch before pool behind that is a neat mind-f*cking option :-) | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On May 30 2013 19:30 Big J wrote: so, I just saw the build for the first time in a game... what happens if the Terran just goes into standard hellions, runs the first 4 of them out and then fights a Zerg without speed and with no defenses at home? Like, wouldn't you just be able to kill every single drone in the main and natural with good hellion micro against a zerg who can only build slow zerglings and only has two queens at home? you see them leaving, so enough time to plant 1-2 spines, evacuate the nat and block with queens until spines are done (alternatively go to 4-6 queens). Since terran cannot expand behind harrass and has built hellions, which take ages to burn down the proxy hatch, he has no way to get a decent economy. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On May 30 2013 00:10 TheSambassador wrote: Not really. That assumes full saturation (16 workers will mine ~640 minerals/minute). They can still use their MULES in their main, so the only additional income they get when they take that natural is from normal worker mining. They won't have 32 SCVs right at the time that they would normally take their natural. The amount you deny goes up as they reach 32 SCVs and are still on 1 base. That's kind of a naive fallacy. Compared to a cc first, terran loses a lot more economy. He has to produce early units instead of the usual single marine. So he will also be behind in SCV's (which snowballs losses over time). Additionally the CC has to be flown over (loss compared to cc first) and SCV transfer is additional lost mining time. I am pretty sure 600 minerals is a very conservative estimation. In general i prefer noting losses in time rather than resources, as minerals at 5 minutes are much more worth than at say 7 minutes. The actual value of minerals is time dependent. From my observation the zerg is about 30 seconds late (bare proxy no spines and stuff built at proxy), the terran is ~45 seconds late. So this opening provides a net gain for zerg if both players go for max macro - no agression | ||
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YumYumGranola
Canada346 Posts
On May 30 2013 00:13 TheSambassador wrote: Why did you put down your hatch before he started his CC? Shouldn't the idea be that you attempt to block the natural, so he goes up and builds it on the high ground, and THEN you proxy? If he hasn't put down his CC yet, I don't think you should proxy. He could easily just throw up 2-3 rax with the money he has saved up. You're not supposed to blind proxy your hatch for no reason. This is a proxy hatch in response to seeing a high-ground CC. The strength in this also comes with the Terran not having vision of his natural, so he discovers it a lot of the time when he's floating the CC over to land it, then having a "oh crap" moment. It also is strong because the Terran can't just pump out a ton of marines. I do not have the replay available to me, but the answer is that when I tried to block occ his CC instead of putting it on the high ground he threw it on the low ground off to the side. At that point I threw down the hatch and he then finished the wall around my hatch with bunker/rax/depot. Edit: I may recreate the situation on map editor, one good thing about it is because the cc was on low ground he was still able to mine semi-efficiently until creep rumors were cleared | ||
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Doc Brawler
United States260 Posts
I feel the only way to not be wayyyy behind when a good zerg does this to you is to scout it before the hatch finishes so you can properly position a bunker. I noticed today in the WCS korea finals, innovation scouted for this when he did CC on high ground. | ||
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ROOTheognis
United States4482 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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ROOTheognis
United States4482 Posts
On June 04 2013 12:49 blade55555 wrote: Theo make your own thread, it will get your video a lot more views especially with what you are going over (countering) this hatch block. Okay, will do! was torn about if I should make one or just post here.  | ||
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FCReverie
Australia103 Posts
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Niyanyo
Mexico71 Posts
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FCReverie
Australia103 Posts
On June 20 2013 10:28 Niyanyo wrote: I am kind of upset that Artosis did not make mention of CatZ during the Cast of INnoVation vs Savage as he used this strategy. But I suppose there is no Way of knowing that Savage did not came up with this independently from CatZ and the showing in Meta and Khaldor´s youtube. It's still Catz strategy, whether someone else came up with it independently or not CatZ was the one to make it public so it is kinda cool that it is getting some high level play from other pros! :D | ||
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Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
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