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Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
On May 25 2013 09:39 SHODAN wrote: thank you for the ladder points Khaldor. I get a free win every time zerg tries this. Replays, please. So many people seem to be flaunting how easy it is to overcome this, yet I haven't seen a single replay where the terran ends up in a better spot than a zerg who doesn't play it stupidly. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1162 Posts
On May 25 2013 12:08 Aberu wrote: So you have been 14 cc'ing on the top of your ramp and they've been executing it as well as catz (which isn't even as potentially well as it could be executed by any means)? yes. there is no "execution" involved when terran responds correctly. ST_Life would look just as silly trying to micro slow lings vs 2 bunkers. what exactly is so technical about making buildings in your opponent's base? | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1162 Posts
On May 25 2013 16:40 Hairy wrote: Replays, please. So many people seem to be flaunting how easy it is to overcome this, yet I haven't seen a single replay where the terran ends up in a better spot than a zerg who doesn't play it stupidly. http://drop.sc/337661 | ||
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SacredCoconut
Finland121 Posts
Funny how you say there is no difference in execution and then you send this replay. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1162 Posts
On May 25 2013 20:22 SacredCoconut wrote: Funny how you say there is no difference in execution and then you send this replay. the guy asked for a replay. he's probably happy to at least have a rough idea of how to deal with it now. I'm sure someone else will post one with higher level of play than mine. you play zerg? feel free to add me on b.net if you think you can do better. I'm saying there is no execution full stop. you can't micro slow lings vs marines unless you make them in overwhelming numbers and try to surround (i.e. to stop a 11/11). slow lings will never break 2 bunkers /w repair. there isn't much "execution" in building and transfusing a hatch + spine crawlers either. as catz said, if terran pulls guys out of gas and goes 2 rax, the rush is over no matter what the zerg does. catz' strategy only works if terran goes straight to factory/reactor like normal. this is the only way the expo will be delayed long enough to make the hatch/spines worth the investment. otherwise, terran will be incredibly dangerous on a high marine count /w stim/medivacs against a zerg on late 2nd-4th gases (delayed bane speed, low bane count, delayed mutas, delayed upgrades). It's not a counter to CC on the high ground - it's a counter the gas/fact/reactor follow-up and non-continuous marine production, i.e. entirely a gimmick. some kind of roach all-in is the only half-decent follow-up if terran takes his natural in good time. I'm waiting for another game where this happens. so far this is the only rep I have saved. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 23 2013 02:52 Hairy wrote: You agree with him that it's "a total gimmick build", but in the very same post you recommend continuous marine production that could delay/disrupt your opening and tech, and pulling SCVs which disrupts your mining. You may "defeat" the proxy quickly, but was the delay/disruption worth it overall? e.g. A zerg who pulls 100% of his drones will "beat" a cannon rush, but he has boned himself in the long run. Also, even if you did truly come out on top after the opening kerfuffle, it's quite possible the zerg did not execute or respond to you well (it's only been "public" a few days, afterall). I wouldn't be so hasty to dismiss the build. I'd be intrigued to see your replay. Sorry, are you paid to be this build's apologist? But? Why "but"? There is absolutely no contradiction between the two parts of the sentence; just because this stuff is gimmicky doesn't mean Terran doesn't have to react. The fact you force something from your opponent is frequently meaningless, since what you force is usually the best answer anyway (hence why it's forced in the first place...). In this case my reactor on fact was delayed by 50 sec since the fact made its own reactor while I was producing Marines out of my single rax. So yes, Zerg did disrupt my opening, but it was hardly a victory for him considering he invested in a Hatchery, a Queen, several lings and pulling 2 drones for the spine attempt. No replay, sorry. On May 23 2013 10:54 Abstinence wrote: Post the replay? I don't see you killing his spines when speedlings are out with just marines off 1 rax. Why are you even talking about Speedlings? On May 24 2013 02:37 Markwerf wrote: depends on the version of gasless 1 rax FE, you're not forced to continue making marines with it. You can also just make 1 marine then delay the second one so you can make the CC before 2nd depot. If you do this you can just make the CC at 17 and it's imo strictly superior to CC on high ground. The later CC is compensated by not having to fly it over and you don't have to pull scv's in case of drone harass. Just use the downtime on the rax after the first marine to reposition it to make a nice wall at the natural, great setup to play very greedy behind a rax wall which is so much stronger than a depot wall. I was talking about 3'07 gasless expand off 1 Marine before second depot. Rax wall are mostly useful when you go CC rax CC (can be the case too with 1 rax CC CC). On May 25 2013 01:06 Aberu wrote: Can you post a replay I and many others would be interested to digest the intricacies, like how well the zerg transitioned out of their build and such. This is more of the potential of this build. Even CatZ messed up macro'ing down his 600 minerals many times in all the games I have seen from this so far. Zerg went for a Roach/Baneling bust afterwards. He started droning at home as soon as he saw I was too prepared for his stuff, so he never floated hundreds of minerals. Top 50 GM Europe level. I have no idea why some people are talking about "Tanks" or "Ravens". If you allow Zerg to settle this long in your natural you will 100% end up behind. No wonder some Zergs think this build is good if you let Zerg spread creep freely in your natural for 3 minuts... All you need is pull a few SCVs + 1-2 bunker(s) + continuous Marine production and you immediately terminate his colonization attempt. If you see this early enough, cancel gas or don't mine, get a second rax and force extra lings with a simple Marine push when you're done dealing with his hatch. | ||
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Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
On May 25 2013 20:30 SHODAN wrote: the guy asked for a replay. he's probably happy to at least have a rough idea of how to deal with it now. I'm sure someone else will post one with higher level of play than mine. you play zerg? feel free to add me on b.net if you think you can do better I asked for replays because there was a lot of talk and not a lot of evidence in here!  You're correct in that there's not really anything a zerg with only slowlings can do vs established bunkers. And, as you said, that's why Catz was recommending that if the terran does exactly what you did, the zerg should NOT try to hold the hatch. I'd disagree that execution on the part of the zerg is irrelevant, though.... His proxy was 30 seconds late due to building the pool first, and his proxy queen ended up being 45 seconds late, popping out at 6:20 instead of ~5:35, so there was much less creep spread than there should have been. At 5:35 you had a grand total of 3 marines, against what should have been a queen and ~8 lings. He also sent a legion of zerglings to their doom fruitlessly, instead of droning back at home when he recognised your strong response. He also completely failed to spread creep, or really use any of his queen energy (eg for transfuse). His macro was also poor, with banked minerals and a late third. Despite all that, he was 10 workers ahead when your push arrived and had 600/600 in the bank - enough to have rolled you over with ling bling, or ling roach (if he actually had a baneling nest or a roach warren, that is). :\ | ||
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Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
On May 25 2013 21:35 TheDwf wrote: Sorry, are you paid to be this build's apologist? Really? But? Why "but"? There is absolutely no contradiction between the two parts of the sentence; just because this stuff is gimmicky doesn't mean Terran doesn't have to react. I just don't feel it's a "gimmick" - what I wrote was supposed to be supporting evidence that it's a solid way to open, even if the terran spots it immediately (from what I can see, at least). I thought you immediately discarded it as a "stupid/cheesy/gimmicky" way to open without any real consideration, despite Artosis + Idra + Catz + a GM terran discussing in some detail and concluding it looks pretty good. I'm just saying to give it a chance, basically. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Then proceed as normal, being aware of course that Zerg is behind which a lot of times will induce them to do a follow-up all-in especially if you forced a lot of lings out in the first place. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On May 26 2013 06:16 avilo wrote: For people that do not know how to deal with this, you immediately build a second barracks, build a bunker at the hatchery, constant marines, and then feint/threaten aggression after you clear the hatchery, which forces more slow lings/larva usage from Zerg which puts you ahead 100% of the time. Then proceed as normal, being aware of course that Zerg is behind which a lot of times will induce them to do a follow-up all-in especially if you forced a lot of lings out in the first place. I dare that this puts the Zerg behind, Terrans nat is heavily delayed. The advantage for the Zerg is exactly the information on what's coming. BTW fast marauder + bunker into marauder hellion seems a pretty strong response to me ... | ||
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Lock0n
United Kingdom184 Posts
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FCReverie
Australia103 Posts
On May 26 2013 22:16 Lock0n wrote: The counter to this is just 2rax proxy, then do fake cc on low ground innovation style, free win since no early pool Except that the Zerg will know when he scouts you and you aren't building anything/your CC is delayed. The 3rd hatch starts well after the 2nd CC so If you don't build that CC the Zerg doesn't hatch, he pools. | ||
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Aberu
United States968 Posts
You opponent took the base decently later than catz, due to him taking a pool before the hatchery, then after he made 8 lings and a queen, he continued to make lings, instead of droning behind it. Again a thing catz wouldn't have done seeing two bunkers. If you see two bunkers, you just do your best to spread the creep. Imagine if he hadn't have made the two spines, the double amount of lings, and instead used that larva on drones. That means when you hit (when he had 600/600 in the bank, that number would have been more. Imagine if that was a third base finishing up, and spent down into lings and banelings, and he didn't ridiculously engage you on the lowground (holy crap that's the biggest reason he lost, no banes and didn't engage on lowground after seeing a decent amount of barracks production). Plus his lair tech was significantly delayed as well. After speed, catz gets lair immediately, continues droning and getting all gasses, once near full saturation, in that situation you would build a couple spines at home, cuz the terran has no choice but to all-in or try to expand and play macro. If terran plays macro you win. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1162 Posts
http://drop.sc/338090 | ||
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Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
On May 27 2013 17:22 SHODAN wrote: I ran into this again on ladder. the zerg needlessly lost a spine, attempted a greedy third base and had no banes/roaches in time. I don't see how zerg could spread much creep without the 2 spines and 10 lings - what exactly is defending the queen? We weren't saying that the previous zerg shouldn't have built the 2 spines and 10 lings. What I was saying was that he shouldn't have built the FOLLOWUP lings, if he sees the terran has responded appropriately. The 2 spines, ~8 lings and queen are the "mandatory" bits. On May 27 2013 17:22 SHODAN wrote: I agree that fast lair is the only decent follow-up, but it would have to be some kind of crazy roach timing/nydus all-in. you're dreaming if you think zerg can have a fast lair, a saturated third, spines at home, 1-1 upgrades, bane speed and enough larvae/ banes to hold a counter-attack like this. Good counter-push. This replay was much closer - the zerg played SO much better than that first guy. You say he had "no banes/roaches in time". He just didn't build any - that's not the same thing as having them "in time". If we were to keep his exact same gas timings, his lair and baneling nest were actually late, so he could have had speed banes 70 seconds earlier than he did (finishing in time for this push), but not 1/1 (with these gas timings). I'd disagree that the zerg couldn't have held this, though. With speed banes, and without his supply block (and subsequent massive over-production of overlords), and if he hadn't lost so many lings to the helions.... I definitely think it could be done. Would he be in an okay position moving into the midgame though? *ponder* | ||
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SacredCoconut
Finland121 Posts
I would not be amezed if you played again against the second opponent and he won now that he knows about your attack. If he scouted with overlord he could have known its coming and had about 30 banelings with 1/1 to hold 4 medivacs 8 hellions and 30 marines with 0/0. I dont realy think its hard counter to cc first, but you have not convinced me that the zerg is behind after doing the build. | ||
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havok55
United States276 Posts
On May 23 2013 09:42 Khaldor wrote: I doubt that half of the people commenting have really watched the video and understood what it's about. This is NOT designed to kill the terran. It's a small thing to do to get a LEAD in the game. If you get a freewin because the terran reacts the wrong way it's an added bonus but not the main intention. Watch the video before you reply I agree with the first part, but there's no point telling people to [re]watch the video because in both games the terran reacted wrong. It doesn't actually show what would happen if a terran reacts correctly. In that first game TOP lost the moment he pulled SCVs and the lings caught them. Game pretty much ended right then. | ||
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Abstinence
United States328 Posts
On May 25 2013 21:35 TheDwf wrote: Sorry, are you paid to be this build's apologist? But? Why "but"? There is absolutely no contradiction between the two parts of the sentence; just because this stuff is gimmicky doesn't mean Terran doesn't have to react. The fact you force something from your opponent is frequently meaningless, since what you force is usually the best answer anyway (hence why it's forced in the first place...). In this case my reactor on fact was delayed by 50 sec since the fact made its own reactor while I was producing Marines out of my single rax. So yes, Zerg did disrupt my opening, but it was hardly a victory for him considering he invested in a Hatchery, a Queen, several lings and pulling 2 drones for the spine attempt. No replay, sorry. Why are you even talking about Speedlings? I was talking about 3'07 gasless expand off 1 Marine before second depot. Rax wall are mostly useful when you go CC rax CC (can be the case too with 1 rax CC CC). Zerg went for a Roach/Baneling bust afterwards. He started droning at home as soon as he saw I was too prepared for his stuff, so he never floated hundreds of minerals. Top 50 GM Europe level. I have no idea why some people are talking about "Tanks" or "Ravens". If you allow Zerg to settle this long in your natural you will 100% end up behind. No wonder some Zergs think this build is good if you let Zerg spread creep freely in your natural for 3 minuts... All you need is pull a few SCVs + 1-2 bunker(s) + continuous Marine production and you immediately terminate his colonization attempt. If you see this early enough, cancel gas or don't mine, get a second rax and force extra lings with a simple Marine push when you're done dealing with his hatch. Why am I talking about speedlings? Don't get all pretentious. I played CatZ, he used his build, and he got a fast speed with it. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 28 2013 02:44 Abstinence wrote: Why am I talking about speedlings? Don't get all pretentious. I played CatZ, he used his build, and he got a fast speed with it. So? When opening drone scout + hatch hatch pool Zerg can't have metaboost done before ~6'25 (assuming hatch hatch gas pool), by which time the hatch at Terran's natural has already fallen. Speedlings are thus irrelevant for the decolonization phase since you're facing slowlings at this time. | ||
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