EPTCatZ CC first counter - a closer look at the build - Page 7
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SourCheeks
United States23 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On June 20 2013 17:35 SourCheeks wrote: How come no one has brought up simply walling off the natural when you see the hatch building? If you build bunker/depots and land your cc/rax if you have to, you can prevent drones and lings from getting into the natural. After that you just kill the hatch at your leisure. I do that occasionally , works well on Neo Planet S, not so much on maps like whirlwind. Overall its very easy to counter if you just check your natural | ||
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Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
On June 20 2013 17:58 Type|NarutO wrote: I do that occasionally , works well on Neo Planet S, not so much on maps like whirlwind. Overall its very easy to counter if you just check your natural If the zerg spots it, and does not commit anything and just drones at home, does this put you in a good position? My concern with this response is that rushing out some extra buildings to block and/or moving your existing buildings slows your own build/tech down, making it still pretty worthwhile for the zerg. Some reps would be great, if possible  | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On June 20 2013 18:08 Hairy wrote: If the zerg spots it, and does not commit anything and just drones at home, does this put you in a good position? My concern with this response is that rushing out some extra buildings to block and/or moving your existing buildings slows your own build/tech down, making it still pretty worthwhile for the zerg. Some reps would be great, if possible You need supply anyways. A second bunker can be made or even double ebay. You can use various buildings, depending on what you need ;-)! I would say it slows you down and is not a perfect response, but its better than having creep everywhere. All in all I really don't believe this build needs a lot of caring, as its easy to spot and in my book easy to deflect. Only encountered it once on Neo Planet... so :x no replays here to share | ||
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FCReverie
Australia103 Posts
On June 20 2013 18:08 Hairy wrote: If the zerg spots it, and does not commit anything and just drones at home, does this put you in a good position? My concern with this response is that rushing out some extra buildings to block and/or moving your existing buildings slows your own build/tech down, making it still pretty worthwhile for the zerg. Some reps would be great, if possible I guess it depends on the map like he said. Neo Planet you can float down the CC you are making to wall the nat and don't really lose any time and it doesn't mess up your bo but on other maps you can't. But yeah replays would be cool to see. EDIT: Then what if you wall off your nat instead of your main but then instead of putting down a creep tumor they inject the hatch and make lings inside your base, that would be 100x worse. Just realised this now O.o | ||
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gingerfluffmuff
Austria4570 Posts
On June 20 2013 18:42 FCReverie wrote: I guess it depends on the map like he said. Neo Planet you can float down the CC you are making to wall the nat and don't really lose any time and it doesn't mess up your bo but on other maps you can't. But yeah replays would be cool to see. EDIT: Then what if you wall off your nat instead of your main but then instead of putting down a creep tumor they inject the hatch and make lings inside your base, that would be 100x worse. Just realised this now O.o Imo you should already have one SD and the 1st rax on your ramp to your main, so just build another SD or bunker to wall off. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
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Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
On June 20 2013 21:25 govie wrote: Oggy (theognis) has made a counter video for catz counter to cc first. He builds a tank+raven. Crushes it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqn4IVuDQcU I wouldn't agree that it "crushes it" at all. The zerg's macro in the first game was so horrible it should be discarded as evidence entirely (getting up to 700 minerals in the first few minutes, a production gap of over 90 seconds at 6:30 - 8:00). The second game was better, and that game was still in Terran's favour, but I'm still not convinced a zerg executing well would necessarily come out behind. Some of the comments in this thread suggesting different ways to combat it (eg simcity blocking off natural) are really promising, but I've yet to see any replay where I thought the zerg played well and the terran did something that put him clearly ahead. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On June 20 2013 21:25 govie wrote: Oggy (theognis) has made a counter video for catz counter to cc first. He builds a tank+raven. Crushes it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqn4IVuDQcU Way too slow, Terran ends up behind 100% with this. The only correct answer is to bunker the hatch and kill it as soon as possible, not allowing the Zerg to settle in your natural, as Bomber for instance did against CatZ on Whirlwind. Bomber vs CatZ on Akilon Wastes or Bogus vs Savage on Bel'shir Vestige in the OSL are examples of what NOT do to. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On June 21 2013 01:25 TheDwf wrote: Way too slow, Terran ends up behind 100% with this. The only correct answer is to bunker the hatch and kill it as soon as possible, not allowing the Zerg to settle in your natural, as Bomber for instance did against CatZ on Whirlwind. Bomber vs CatZ on Akilon Wastes or Bogus vs Savage on Bel'shir Vestige in the OSL are examples of what NOT do to. If u look at the video he did build a bunker. Primary reason was to kill tumors because 1 bunker wont cut it. Im no pro, i quote them Hell, Ive never even encountered this against a cc first. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
Yes, but you don't want to make Tanks or a Raven. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On June 21 2013 01:38 TheDwf wrote: Yes, but you don't want to make Tanks or a Raven. Ofcourse, but he doesnt want to burn scans. The creep will eventually cover ur expo and 3rd, thats just so many scans per base. Its ilogical. His goal is too economically kill creep and the base and end up with 3cc's. And transition into anything u strat u want to play. Scans early on are more expensive then lateron in the game. The raven idea is logical in a way and the tank is there because u need starport and its a safe way to kill the hatchery from highground. I dont see the problem with his strategy to be honest. U end up with 3 cc's, be economically ahead, have more tech then opponent and not bounded by a certain strategy. So 4M or something else can still be done. Am I missing something or not seeing something here? To me it looks like a fine counterstrat to blockhatch... | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On June 21 2013 01:48 govie wrote: Ofcourse, but he doesnt want to burn scans. The creep will eventually cover ur expo and 3rd, thats just so many scans per base. Its ilogical. His goal is too economically kill creep and the base and end up with 3cc's. And transition into anything u strat u want to play. Scans early on are more expensive then lateron in the game. The raven idea is logical in a way and the tank is there because u need starport and its a safe way to kill the hatchery from highground. I dont see the problem with his strategy to be honest. U end up with 3 cc's, be economically ahead, have more tech then opponent and not bounded by a certain strategy. So 4M or something else can still be done. Am I missing something or not seeing something here? To me it looks like a fine counterstrat to blockhatch... You kill the Queen as soon as possible, sniping the first Tumor if you can (if not you spend a single scan, which is better than teching a Raven). When using the SCVs/Marines/Bunker answer, the hatch goes down quickly and there cannot be any creep spead beyond a single scan radius. In the Whirlwind game between Bomber and CatZ, the hatch was destroyed 2 seconds before the Queen was complete. The problem with a Tank and a Raven is that you will reclaim your natural way too late (which means you end up behind, e. g. Bogus vs Savage), and invest gas in not super useful stuff. You don't want to overcommit on defence because the Zerg has his natural running meanwhile and can powerdrone in complete safety if you go for a Tank and a Raven (since it means no agression is coming). | ||
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Dudasc
Brazil286 Posts
On June 21 2013 01:25 TheDwf wrote: Way too slow, Terran ends up behind 100% with this. The only correct answer is to bunker the hatch and kill it as soon as possible, not allowing the Zerg to settle in your natural, as Bomber for instance did against CatZ on Whirlwind. Bomber vs CatZ on Akilon Wastes or Bogus vs Savage on Bel'shir Vestige in the OSL are examples of what NOT do to. Catz said himself that as long as the zerg doesn't comit to lings, he should be able to come out ahead on that kind of situation as well. | ||
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govie
9334 Posts
On June 21 2013 01:53 TheDwf wrote: You kill the Queen as soon as possible, sniping the first Tumor if you can (if not you spend a single scan, which is better than teching a Raven). When using the SCVs/Marines/Bunker answer, the hatch goes down quickly and there cannot be any creep spead beyond a single scan radius. In the Whirlwind game between Bomber and CatZ, the hatch was destroyed 2 seconds before the Queen was complete. The problem with a Tank and a Raven is that you will reclaim your natural way too late (which means you end up behind, e. g. Bogus vs Savage), and invest gas in not super useful stuff. You don't want to overcommit on defence because the Zerg has his natural running meanwhile and can powerdrone in complete safety if you go for a Tank and a Raven (since it means no agression is coming). Sounds about right. I understand the "not super usefull gas stuff". But u can go banshee/hellion of this 1/1/1 pretty fast. As said by catz, he will be ahead with no commitment anyway. Maybe 1/1/1 is more safe way to open, when u dont know if there are lings/crawlers (more commitment) behind it? If u can kill the first queen with the marines and see no crawlers or more lings, u can allways cancel the tank and/or the raven even. 1/1/1 isnt that bad, just react to his commitment. U understand what i mean? Just basically 1/1/1 into 3cc's. Depending on commitment zerg and ur execution --> Oggy units. Better? | ||
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webhappy
20 Posts
The key is to scout that this is happening and immediately build second rax. Easy hold, no problem. As thedwf points out, you don't want the queen popping out and planting a creep tumor because that is the real source of your economic pain (your second orbital has nothing to do for another minute if the queen can plant that tumor). I think this is a cheese like cannon-rushing. I play zerg and am always in the habit now of sending a unit to walk around behind the mineral lines for a potential cannon rush. I think Terrans will be forced to get in the habit of pulling one SCV to walk to their nat and then go back to mining or to have their scouting SCV stop by this proxy hatch. My prediction is that this will stop working within a month once everyone is in the habit of SCV scouting their own nat. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On June 30 2013 07:31 webhappy wrote: Thedwf is right: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBcvuypM5Kc The key is to scout that this is happening and immediately build second rax. Easy hold, no problem. As thedwf points out, you don't want the queen popping out and planting a creep tumor because that is the real source of your economic pain (your second orbital has nothing to do for another minute if the queen can plant that tumor). I think this is a cheese like cannon-rushing. I play zerg and am always in the habit now of sending a unit to walk around behind the mineral lines for a potential cannon rush. I think Terrans will be forced to get in the habit of pulling one SCV to walk to their nat and then go back to mining or to have their scouting SCV stop by this proxy hatch. My prediction is that this will stop working within a month once everyone is in the habit of SCV scouting their own nat. This is the first thing people were doing to me when I first tried it and so I abandoned it soon after. I've tried it again since then and it only works if the opponent doesn't see it in time to build a second rax. I would say, though, that if you see them as they make a second rax you can just abandon the plan and still be in a recoverable position. | ||
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Glaive
Sweden138 Posts
I´m not at all surprised how incredibly popular this has gotten on the ladder, (pulling what feels like a realistic number out of my ass) 7/10 times the Zerg scouts high ground CC on High Master EU the hatch goes down immidiately. More often than not the Zerg takes a nice early lead with the modified 3 hatch before pool variation. Opinions of a high master Terran: Many of the proposed counters only really puts you on even footing vs the Hatch -> Pool -> Offensive Hatch opening. The modified 3 Hatch before pool variation, which is completely safe, is a different story. I have yet to play anyone who tries this, but I theorize that you can even go into 4 hatch (Third hatch being the offensive, 4th planted at your 3rd) before pool and get away with it. The safest, more surefire way to deal with the hatch once you scout it in your nat is to add a second rax and build two bunkers around the hatch. You absolutely cannot allow the Queen to plant a creep tumor, that´s essentially game. Even if you clear out the hatch, queen and any potential spine crawlers, without losing a single unit, the Zerg gets far, far ahead. But even then, the creep spread from the hatch alone puts the Zerg slightly ahead if he doesn´t build Queen/Spines/Lings and instead drones. Unless there is some serious meta:ing going on, the Terran has to account for the possibility of the Ling follow-up. Why not just 1 bunker? If the Zerg commits heavily to lings, he´ll break it and you lose your nat, and subsequently, the game. Why not immidiately wall off your ramp? I was excited when I first read about this, in theory it seemed like a great counter. Unfortunately it´s simply not viable on a lot of maps. Whirlwind, Akilon, Belshir etc. all have ramps that are too wide. Besides, the Zerg can simply read the situation correctly and not invest in a single Zergling, cancel his Queen, take a third and drone behind it. Knowing full well the Terran can put on no counter-pressure. The creep spread from the hatch alone more than makes up for the investment. By no means are you absolutely dead in this scenario, but undeniably the Terran is, again, quite far behind. The problem is information. The Zerg holds all the cards, you simply can´t tell if he´s droning or if there are 12 lings about to pop. If you overdefend, you´re behind. If you don´t take the potential Spine/Ling follow-up seriously, you straight up die or get contained. Conclusion? The only true counter to this is to block the drone from planting the hatch, the 300 mineral investment into the hatch puts Z slightly ahead no matter what happens next, assuming he in turn responds correctly to what the Terran is doing. Some Zergs will respond by trying to proxy the hatch, though, so you really need to baby-sit that SCV following his drone for just long enough. Basically the economic damage you suffer from pulling one SCV off of minerals at that ~ 1 minute interval when you need to block the Drone is a lot less painful than having to wait invest in two bunkers, a second rax and then waiting for the creep to recede before you can float your Orbital. Nothing is more satisfying than blocking that Drone over and over, suddenly he´s floating 500 minerals, realizes that even if he jukes the SCV and gets to plant the hatch, the first Marine is going to pop any second and he opts against it. My $0.02 | ||
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Antylamon
United States1981 Posts
On June 30 2013 10:33 Glaive wrote: + Show Spoiler + So, I´ve spent a lot of time studying this build, as it´s by far the most frustrating way to slowly suffocate as a Terran. Just painful. I´m not at all surprised how incredibly popular this has gotten on the ladder, (pulling what feels like a realistic number out of my ass) 7/10 times the Zerg scouts high ground CC on High Master EU the hatch goes down immidiately. More often than not the Zerg takes a nice early lead with the modified 3 hatch before pool variation. Opinions of a high master Terran: Many of the proposed counters only really puts you on even footing vs the Hatch -> Pool -> Offensive Hatch opening. The modified 3 Hatch before pool variation, which is completely safe, is a different story. I have yet to play anyone who tries this, but I theorize that you can even go into 4 hatch (Third hatch being the offensive, 4th planted at your 3rd) before pool and get away with it. The safest, more surefire way to deal with the hatch once you scout it in your nat is to add a second rax and build two bunkers around the hatch. You absolutely cannot allow the Queen to plant a creep tumor, that´s essentially game. Even if you clear out the hatch, queen and any potential spine crawlers, without losing a single unit, the Zerg gets far, far ahead. But even then, the creep spread from the hatch alone puts the Zerg slightly ahead if he doesn´t build Queen/Spines/Lings and instead drones. Unless there is some serious meta:ing going on, the Terran has to account for the possibility of the Ling follow-up. Why not just 1 bunker? If the Zerg commits heavily to lings, he´ll break it and you lose your nat, and subsequently, the game. Why not immidiately wall off your ramp? I was excited when I first read about this, in theory it seemed like a great counter. Unfortunately it´s simply not viable on a lot of maps. Whirlwind, Akilon, Belshir etc. all have ramps that are too wide. Besides, the Zerg can simply read the situation correctly and not invest in a single Zergling, cancel his Queen, take a third and drone behind it. Knowing full well the Terran can put on no counter-pressure. The creep spread from the hatch alone more than makes up for the investment. By no means are you absolutely dead in this scenario, but undeniably the Terran is, again, quite far behind. The problem is information. The Zerg holds all the cards, you simply can´t tell if he´s droning or if there are 12 lings about to pop. If you overdefend, you´re behind. If you don´t take the potential Spine/Ling follow-up seriously, you straight up die or get contained. Conclusion? The only true counter to this is to block the drone from planting the hatch, the 300 mineral investment into the hatch puts Z slightly ahead no matter what happens next, assuming he in turn responds correctly to what the Terran is doing. Some Zergs will respond by trying to proxy the hatch, though, so you really need to baby-sit that SCV following his drone for just long enough. Basically the economic damage you suffer from pulling one SCV off of minerals at that ~ 1 minute interval when you need to block the Drone is a lot less painful than having to wait invest in two bunkers, a second rax and then waiting for the creep to recede before you can float your Orbital. Nothing is more satisfying than blocking that Drone over and over, suddenly he´s floating 500 minerals, realizes that even if he jukes the SCV and gets to plant the hatch, the first Marine is going to pop any second and he opts against it. My $0.02 Uhm? Did you watch Bomber vs Catz on Whirlwind? You haven't said anything about that yet. | ||
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Glaive
Sweden138 Posts
On June 30 2013 11:00 Antylamon wrote: Uhm? Did you watch Bomber vs Catz on Whirlwind? You haven't said anything about that yet. I did cover similar scenarios, but didn´t point to that game specifically for a couple of reasons. But you´re right, now that I re-read I think the parallells were mostly drawn in my own head (skipping sleep to watch MLG ftw!) and not as clear as they should have been, I´ll elaborate! Let me highlight the parts of my previous posts relevant to the scenario that played out on Whirlwind vs Bomber. On June 30 2013 10:33 Glaive wrote: The safest, more surefire way to deal with the hatch once you scout it in your nat is to add a second rax and build two bunkers around the hatch... ... But even then, the creep spread from the hatch alone puts the Zerg slightly ahead if he doesn´t build Queen/Spines/Lings and instead drones. Why not just 1 bunker? If the Zerg commits heavily to lings, he´ll break it and you lose your nat, and subsequently, the game. ... Besides, the Zerg can simply read the situation correctly and not invest in a single Zergling, cancel his Queen, take a third and drone behind it. Knowing full well the Terran can put on no counter-pressure. The creep spread from the hatch alone more than makes up for the investment. By no means are you absolutely dead in this scenario, but undeniably the Terran is, again, quite far behind. The problem is information. The Zerg holds all the cards, you simply can´t tell if he´s droning or if there are 12 lings about to pop. If you overdefend, you´re behind. If you don´t take the potential Spine/Ling follow-up seriously, you straight up die or get contained. 1) Bomber was completely blind and kinda lucked out. 3 rax was my initial response to this build, after further experimentation I realized that you only "need" two. Yes, you can get away with only 1 Bunker with the extra Marines you can squeeze out, but it also hurts you a little bit more economically if the Zerg doesn´t commit. Bomber compensates for this by cancelling his gas and doesn´t remake the Refinery until the 5 min mark. Every time I´ve done that vs a Zerg who doesn´t follow up with the all-in I´ve been completely screwed as I´ve now essentially gone a gasless 2 CC into 3 rax. On some smaller maps there may be potential for a counter bunker rush/SCV pull all-in, they´ve been kinda hit and miss in my own experience, largely dependant on the Zergs control and if he scouts it in time. But in general, that´s just not where you want to be as a Terran player at that stage of the game in HotS. 2) Catz misplayed it. Firstly there was the awkward moment of indecisiveness where he first targeted down one SCVs repairing, then the bunker, then realized he had to kill the other SCV. I´ve seen Catz and many other Zergs execute that variation a lot better. Secondly, he didn´t need to commit the way he did. He had an Overlord in position to scout Bombers ramp, but didn´t. As a result he blindly continued with the Ling follow-up instead of droning. Had he poked with the Overlord he would have seen 3 rax, cut his losses and taken a slight economic lead vs, what I feel, is an overreaction from the Terran. The Overlord patterns times out so that the Zerg can check what the Terrans reaction is before he decides whether or not to commit to morphings lings and pulling Drones for Spines. Correct me if I´m wrong here, Zergs players, but I think the only cases this isn´t true is cross map spawns on Whirlwind and maps of equal size. 3) All in all, it plays out pretty much the same as 2 Barracks into a second Bunker instead of the third rax. Though I must admit I haven´t experimented with it all too much, so I definitely won´t rule out that there might be situations that I´m not considering where you´re better off with the third rax. I doubt there´s a significant difference, but it does warrant further testing! I hope that explained my position on this opening a bit better! | ||
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