• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 12:56
CET 18:56
KST 02:56
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!12[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Weekly Cups (Oct 26 - Nov 1): MaxPax, herO, Solar win0Weekly Cups (October 19-25): Clem triples first in 5.0.175Evil Geniuses - shutting down23ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier7Weekly Cups (October 12-18): 5.0.17 era begins1
StarCraft 2
General
No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? [D] Hacker peak in sc2 ? Liquibets sc2 season 30 Evil Geniuses - shutting down Weekly Cups (Oct 26 - Nov 1): MaxPax, herO, Solar win
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
Starcraft 2 Advance [D] the control group Simple Questions/Answers [G] How to playtest arcade maps
External Content
Mutation # 550 Graveyard Shift The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 549 Endless Sparkles Mutation # 548 Shining Bright
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Sagi.gg Launcher Released Top Players of October 2026 (EBPD Rankings) BW General Discussion Rollback Netcode in Brood War
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4 [Mixed-Gender CK] Rush+4 vs Best+4 [BSL23] RO24 Group F - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
50,000-Word Terran Builds Memo 2026-10-22 Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Deus Ex 3!? Mobile Legends: Bang Bang Armies of Exigo - YesYes?
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Chess Thread
Fan Clubs
Fan Club Resource Thread Reynor Fan Club The Flash Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Why I built Repalyzer (1.1.…
BlueStar
Innovate or Game Over?
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 33969 users

To anyone with Ivy Bridge Heat Problems

Forum Index > Tech Support
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
Steelo_Rivers
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1968 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-22 17:13:54
November 22 2012 17:10 GMT
#1
As most people know, Intel's "Ivy Bridge" is supposed to be the successor of the previous "Sandy Bridge" cpu architecture. A lot of people who like to overclock their cpu's have noted that they have problems with heat even though IB is supposed to be cooler than SB considering that it has a smaller cpu die and runs on less voltage. The issue lies beneath the IHS (the heat spreader). Intel has used cheap thermal paste that must be replaced beneath the IHS, or else you will continue you have heat problems. Here is a video (not by me) that goes through the steps and shows the results of replacing the cheap silicon paste that Intel used:



If anyone has worked on PS3's, its basically the same process as when you are cleaning and replacing the thermal paste under the IHS on the GPU.

EDIT: if you go to the actual video on youtube, the person who made the video has time skips setup for different parts of the video (ex. Temps before XX:XX, Removing IHS XX:XX, etc..)
ok
HotCookies
Profile Joined January 2011
Greece149 Posts
November 22 2012 17:46 GMT
#2
very helpful thanks for mentioning it.
Aando
Profile Joined August 2011
1304 Posts
November 22 2012 18:07 GMT
#3
Such a stupid way for Intel to cut corners. It reminds me of my c2d where I had to lap the IHS with sandpaper to get a decent temperature because it was concave as fuck.
Steelo_Rivers
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1968 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-22 18:16:11
November 22 2012 18:12 GMT
#4
On November 23 2012 02:46 HotCookies wrote:
very helpful thanks for mentioning it.

No problem bro. Anything to help out.

On November 23 2012 03:07 Aando wrote:
Such a stupid way for Intel to cut corners. It reminds me of my c2d where I had to lap the IHS with sandpaper to get a decent temperature because it was concave as fuck.

Yea I feel you. Its the same issue with 360's and ps3's. Companies want to cut corners and save money, but they aren't realizing that the customer is suffering. I wonder if doing this could fix issues with some AMD cpu's as well although I highly doubt it.
ok
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
November 22 2012 18:16 GMT
#5
this has been known for a ltitle while. but this specific video, 90c, really? i cant believe that.
starleague forever
Steelo_Rivers
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1968 Posts
November 22 2012 18:26 GMT
#6
On November 23 2012 03:16 a176 wrote:
this has been known for a ltitle while. but this specific video, 90c, really? i cant believe that.

Yea I know, just thought I should post here for people that weren't aware of why this was happening.
ok
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
November 22 2012 19:30 GMT
#7
On November 23 2012 03:16 a176 wrote:
this has been known for a ltitle while. but this specific video, 90c, really? i cant believe that.


I thought that the cold obsession has been already dealt with, even on this particular forum. 90 degrees for a modern Intel CPU is completely normal. I have an i5 in my laptop and i goes to 90-95 degrees everytime something mildly interesting happens on the computer.

It is not agaist any specification to run at this temperature. All the current Intel processors have integrated safeguards that shut the CPU off the milisecond the temperature actually reaches a remotely dangerous. Mind you, the CPU is not made of meat, but silicon.
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
Steelo_Rivers
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1968 Posts
November 22 2012 19:41 GMT
#8
On November 23 2012 04:30 opisska wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2012 03:16 a176 wrote:
this has been known for a ltitle while. but this specific video, 90c, really? i cant believe that.


I thought that the cold obsession has been already dealt with, even on this particular forum. 90 degrees for a modern Intel CPU is completely normal. I have an i5 in my laptop and i goes to 90-95 degrees everytime something mildly interesting happens on the computer.

It is not agaist any specification to run at this temperature. All the current Intel processors have integrated safeguards that shut the CPU off the milisecond the temperature actually reaches a remotely dangerous. Mind you, the CPU is not made of meat, but silicon.

The fact that its a desktop cpu WITH an aftermarket cooler and still runs a 90c is silly though. Im running a Pentium Dual Core right now that I oc'd from 1.6ghz to 3.2ghz (a 200% oc) running at 1.325v and it doesnt get that hot (on stock cooling). highest it gets is 70c and thats under p95 stress test. Sorry, but laptop cpu's generally run hotter anyway because of the terrible cooling. A desktop cpu shouldnt be above 80c unless under extreme conditions.
ok
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
November 22 2012 20:20 GMT
#9
On November 23 2012 04:30 opisska wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2012 03:16 a176 wrote:
this has been known for a ltitle while. but this specific video, 90c, really? i cant believe that.


I thought that the cold obsession has been already dealt with, even on this particular forum. 90 degrees for a modern Intel CPU is completely normal. I have an i5 in my laptop and i goes to 90-95 degrees everytime something mildly interesting happens on the computer.

It is not agaist any specification to run at this temperature. All the current Intel processors have integrated safeguards that shut the CPU off the milisecond the temperature actually reaches a remotely dangerous. Mind you, the CPU is not made of meat, but silicon.


i can imagine 80-90 using the stock low profile intel cooler under extreme load. but definitely not for a tower cooler. and especially one in open air!
starleague forever
Aando
Profile Joined August 2011
1304 Posts
November 22 2012 20:49 GMT
#10
On November 23 2012 04:30 opisska wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2012 03:16 a176 wrote:
this has been known for a ltitle while. but this specific video, 90c, really? i cant believe that.


I thought that the cold obsession has been already dealt with, even on this particular forum. 90 degrees for a modern Intel CPU is completely normal. I have an i5 in my laptop and i goes to 90-95 degrees everytime something mildly interesting happens on the computer.

It is not agaist any specification to run at this temperature. All the current Intel processors have integrated safeguards that shut the CPU off the milisecond the temperature actually reaches a remotely dangerous. Mind you, the CPU is not made of meat, but silicon.

Well, Tj. max for an Ivy is 105c and it's lower for a Sandy (100c for the mobiles if I remember correctly and something like 95-98 for the desktops ) so if you have temps at 95c whenever something "mildly interesting" happens I'd definitely take a look at that.
ToKoreaWithLove
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Norway10161 Posts
November 22 2012 22:19 GMT
#11
I am surprised this is not common practice for overclockers. Before I went mac we used to replace the paste on everything including video cards. I do imagine nvidia got pretty good at that after Fermi tho^^
ModeratorFather of bunnies
Shauni
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
4077 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-22 22:57:14
November 22 2012 22:56 GMT
#12
On November 23 2012 07:19 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
I am surprised this is not common practice for overclockers. Before I went mac we used to replace the paste on everything including video cards. I do imagine nvidia got pretty good at that after Fermi tho^^


Well, first of all it's a bit risky and can damage the CPU if you're a bit clumsy. And secondly the gains aren't really that high. With a decent tower cooler you can do a good OC and still very low volt, most CPUs doesn't go much higher anyway. Mine runs fine in 4.2ghz and 1.0v for example. Very cool, never over 70C in stresstests. And I run it without a fan... The temperature differences between sandy bridge and ivy is only critical if you want to go over 4.5ghz on the 50% of the CPUs that can (the volt increases skyrockets the temps on ivy).
I'm taking whatever coverage I can get, because frankly, I'm busy working on this million dollar deal at my job. Early retirement is a good thing brotha man. - MessengerASL
bsdaemon
Profile Joined July 2012
618 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-22 23:06:54
November 22 2012 23:05 GMT
#13
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 23 2012 02:10 LgNKami wrote:
As most people know, Intel's "Ivy Bridge" is supposed to be the successor of the previous "Sandy Bridge" cpu architecture. A lot of people who like to overclock their cpu's have noted that they have problems with heat even though IB is supposed to be cooler than SB considering that it has a smaller cpu die and runs on less voltage. The issue lies beneath the IHS (the heat spreader). Intel has used cheap thermal paste that must be replaced beneath the IHS, or else you will continue you have heat problems. Here is a video (not by me) that goes through the steps and shows the results of replacing the cheap silicon paste that Intel used:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXs0I5kuoX4

If anyone has worked on PS3's, its basically the same process as when you are cleaning and replacing the thermal paste under the IHS on the GPU.

EDIT: if you go to the actual video on youtube, the person who made the video has time skips setup for different parts of the video (ex. Temps before XX:XX, Removing IHS XX:XX, etc..)


is this still an issue with the newer batches? it was some sort of an issue when ib first came out but the discussions about it somewhat died down so i thought the issue was resolved. some forums that i go to generally just went for lower overclocks since it is still slightly better than sandy chips.
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
November 23 2012 02:34 GMT
#14
That vid is pretty jank he does a bunch of things i wouldn't recommend while taking off the spreader, also you don't really need to put the spreader back on, assuming you have the right type of cooler just putting it directly on the cpu die works just fine and avoids the spreader which mobile cpu platforms been doing for ages and amd gpu's no longer use head spreaders. At worst you use a shim essentially what the heat spreader is but you can get one out of pure cooper instead of what the ihs is, nickel plated copper, or you just have to run a small mod on your mobo, but fuck it you're ripping the ihs off your expensive cpu why not go the extra mile. It's intels fault anyways for not soldering the cpu to the ihs
Steelo_Rivers
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States1968 Posts
November 23 2012 02:38 GMT
#15
On November 23 2012 11:34 semantics wrote:
That vid is pretty jank he does a bunch of things i wouldn't recommend while taking off the spreader, also you don't really need to put the spreader back on, assuming you have the right type of cooler just putting it directly on the cpu die works just fine and avoids the spreader which mobile cpu platforms been doing for ages and amd gpu's no longer use head spreaders. At worst you use a shim essentially what the heat spreader is but you can get one out of pure cooper instead of what the ihs is, nickel plated copper, or you just have to run a small mod on your mobo, but fuck it you're ripping the ihs off your expensive cpu why not go the extra mile. It's intels fault anyways for not soldering the cpu to the ihs

I 100% agree. The video is very sloppily done and he did a lot of things that I do not agree with, but it gives people an idea about what to do with their stuff.
ok
BeanerBurrito
Profile Joined December 2010
1010 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-23 03:51:17
November 23 2012 03:46 GMT
#16
Not sure if the issue was fixed or not, I made a post about the same thing awhile ago.

I currently have an i7 3770k running at 4.5 ghz and it doesn't go above 60c under full load on air cooling

I haven't had any heat issues at all, but then again I'm not pushing the voltage that hard and haven't tested 5 ghz or higher


http://www.overclock.net/t/1258439/ivy-bridge-3770k-heat-spreader-thermal-grease-testing

There's a thread that goes in depth describing the issue, personally I wouldn't recommend replacing the thermal paste before you're sure you're having an issue with overheating, like i said personally I haven't had any issues at all.

here's a quote from an intel rep from the newegg forum


Sorry I didnt get back on this before. The reason for the change to TIM (Thermal Interface Material) was a cost move. This move had to do with our overall processor line up and keeping the costs as low as reasonable without impacting performance. For the great majority of our processors this move doesn't have any impact at all on performance.

However when it does come to overclocking as some of you have pointed out you are not getting as high of clock speed when overclocking as you did from the 2nd generation Intel® Core™ processors. Most reports in the enthusiast space found that the with the Intel Core i5-2500K about 80% of them would top off at 4.5GHz unless you got into extreme cooling. Most people are finding with the Intel Core i5-3570K are finding that you can reach 4.2GHz to 4.3GHz on the 3rd generation Intel Core i5-3570K without changing the voltage at all. Since it is the voltage that is really leading to the heating issues this means that you are getting a processor that is running at a reasonable temperature without turning to higher end cooling.

Due to IPC (Instructions Per Cycle) improvements on the 3rd generation Intel Core processors you are getting right around a 6% improvement over the 2nd generation in overall performane. So at 4.3GHz you are getting performance that is right at the level that you would from the 2nd generation processors.

In the end as reported on Tomshardware, Anandtech and HardOCP the performance of the 3rd generation Intel Core processors when overclocking is basically a "wash" with the 2nd generation processors when overclocking.

What the future may hold with our processors I don't know but I will say without question that the enthusiast space is important to us and we are going to continue to try to make the best processors that we can.
What they say: "I'm gonna play support!" What they mean: "I'm gonna feed all game!"
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20345 Posts
November 23 2012 05:24 GMT
#17
Obligatory dont do this if you dont know what the fuck you are doing
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
November 23 2012 18:58 GMT
#18
On November 23 2012 04:41 LgNKami wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2012 04:30 opisska wrote:
On November 23 2012 03:16 a176 wrote:
this has been known for a ltitle while. but this specific video, 90c, really? i cant believe that.


I thought that the cold obsession has been already dealt with, even on this particular forum. 90 degrees for a modern Intel CPU is completely normal. I have an i5 in my laptop and i goes to 90-95 degrees everytime something mildly interesting happens on the computer.

It is not agaist any specification to run at this temperature. All the current Intel processors have integrated safeguards that shut the CPU off the milisecond the temperature actually reaches a remotely dangerous. Mind you, the CPU is not made of meat, but silicon.

The fact that its a desktop cpu WITH an aftermarket cooler and still runs a 90c is silly though. Im running a Pentium Dual Core right now that I oc'd from 1.6ghz to 3.2ghz (a 200% oc) running at 1.325v and it doesnt get that hot (on stock cooling). highest it gets is 70c and thats under p95 stress test. Sorry, but laptop cpu's generally run hotter anyway because of the terrible cooling. A desktop cpu shouldnt be above 80c unless under extreme conditions.


Yes, it is silly, in the sense that it is probably a fault somewhere in the cooling and could be made better. The question is, is there a point in doing it, when the CPU can run just fine on this temperature?

On November 23 2012 05:49 Aando wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 23 2012 04:30 opisska wrote:
On November 23 2012 03:16 a176 wrote:
this has been known for a ltitle while. but this specific video, 90c, really? i cant believe that.


I thought that the cold obsession has been already dealt with, even on this particular forum. 90 degrees for a modern Intel CPU is completely normal. I have an i5 in my laptop and i goes to 90-95 degrees everytime something mildly interesting happens on the computer.

It is not agaist any specification to run at this temperature. All the current Intel processors have integrated safeguards that shut the CPU off the milisecond the temperature actually reaches a remotely dangerous. Mind you, the CPU is not made of meat, but silicon.

Well, Tj. max for an Ivy is 105c and it's lower for a Sandy (100c for the mobiles if I remember correctly and something like 95-98 for the desktops ) so if you have temps at 95c whenever something "mildly interesting" happens I'd definitely take a look at that.


But this is exactly it - Tj for a desktop Ivy really is 105. That means that 90 is full 15 degrees below that. Can you please point me to any source of Tj being 95 for mobile Sandies? I always thought it is flat 100.

Anyway, I have a pre-sandy CPU, which has 105 so I am golden
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
skyR
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada13817 Posts
November 23 2012 19:07 GMT
#19
Yes, there is a point. You want a reasonably amount of headroom to account for seasonal changes, mechanical failures, and dust accumulation.
jaj22
Profile Joined September 2009
United Kingdom1376 Posts
November 23 2012 20:14 GMT
#20
Intel CPUs before Ivy Bridge used to throttle at a temperature far below the shutdown temperature, usually in the 80-85C range. So the CPU doesn't run "fine" at 90C - it runs very slowly. That may have changed with Ivy Bridge, but I'd be surprised.

The engineering logic behind this is that a CPU running at higher temperature needs more voltage to run at the same frequency. By implementing a throttle temperature, CPU manufacturers can increase the rated frequency and/or lower the stock voltage while maintaining stability. Turbo boost complicates that a little, but the principle remains.

1 2 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
23:00
King of the Hill #267
EmpressLilyy62
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 389
SHIN 137
MindelVK 32
EnDerr 8
StarCraft: Brood War
Mini 449
BeSt 237
ggaemo 176
actioN 157
firebathero 91
Mind 84
Dewaltoss 76
Mong 64
Zeus 61
Hyun 60
[ Show more ]
Sharp 33
Bale 31
sorry 28
scan(afreeca) 21
Aegong 18
ajuk12(nOOB) 15
Bishop 15
Dota 2
qojqva2759
Dendi1135
monkeys_forever335
Other Games
tarik_tv4995
Liquid`RaSZi1428
FrodaN659
ceh9593
XaKoH 240
Liquid`VortiX226
Fuzer 223
byalli210
ArmadaUGS119
KnowMe87
QueenE67
Grubby66
C9.Mang064
Mew2King64
NeuroSwarm48
UpATreeSC44
Trikslyr37
ODPixel34
Chillindude19
Railgan18
JuggernautJason14
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL225
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 74
• LUISG 19
• Adnapsc2 13
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Laughngamez YouTube
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix20
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis2892
• TFBlade743
Other Games
• Shiphtur627
• imaqtpie578
• WagamamaTV313
Upcoming Events
IntoTheTV X SOOP
1d 17h
Reynor vs Solar
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs MaxPax
herO vs Rogue
IPSL
1d 23h
WorsT vs nOmaD
Dewalt vs andersOn
AI Arena Tournament
2 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
2 days
IPSL
2 days
Azhi_Dahaki vs ggnore13
Double vs WIZARD
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
YoungYakov vs Lambo
SHIN vs TBD
Percival vs Shameless
Solar vs TBD
PiGosaur Cup
5 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
6 days
KCM Race Survival
6 days
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-11-04
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
International ShieldBattery League
BSL Season 23
IPSL Winter 2026-27
Calamity Cup Div. A Season 8
IEM Beijing 2026
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026

Upcoming

1xBet Invitational
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Underdog Cup 2026 Div 2-3
PGL Bucharest 2027
BLAST Bounty Winter 2027
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.