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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
Also, being a math student, a more correct way of presenting the lynch formula would be ((P/2)+1) rounded down, where P is players remaining. Because 6/2 rounded up is 3 not 4(in math anyway, since you don't round whole numbers). It takes (players remaining)/2 rounded up votes to lynch somebody. ie, with 6 players in the game, it takes 4 to lynch. Sorry, but I couldn't help myself.  Edit: Also, first game ever for me on TL(only played the sc2 custom map). | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On August 21 2012 22:12 ghost_403 wrote:@alsn: whoops ^^ I had the same guy who wrote my thesis write my OP, and it looks like he's completely clueless, as per usual. FIX'D. Hah!I especially like it how you modified it in order to keep rounding up, but now it is correct, so touché!  | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On August 22 2012 00:10 marvellosity wrote: Now you're just being rude! Number of votes needed to lynch Alsn = marv how's that for maths | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
To start with, this is my first forum mafia game ever, but that's not something I will use as an excuse. I've been following a few other games in this forum so I think I at least have some clue as to what I should be doing. Now, being in Europe this part of the day is usually my sleeping schedule, so for me I'll usually be most active during the hours approaching "whole" days(such as the 10-12 hours before voting/night deadlines). From the games I've looked at I absolutely agree with thrawn on the lurker pressuring gig, simply on the premise that more posts = more things to try to keep straight for scum. Also, in the last game I followed there was a lot of talk about meta and how people played in previous games. I feel that given the few amount of games people have played in this newbie game(me in particular!) this is not something that I feel people should be focusing on(too much anyway). In fact, establishing healthy pro-town conversation and forcing people to speak up seems a much more fruitful strategy to pursue. I would also like to mention that I feel we should discourage town from any kind of day 1 trolling and consider it a scum move. Seeing as anyone who is town behaving in such a manner is likely to cast all attention on them and way too easily let scum seem all too reasonable in painting targets on them. I realize that the game I am drawing this conclusion from is a game in progress(the prior newbie mini mafia) but the way that day 1 in that game was completely derailed is not something that I look forward to or seems like healthy pro-town behaviour. And that's it for my introductory post, toodles. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
Anyway, from skimming through the thread I have a few things that I probably want to comment on, so that will follow shortly(or, when I've made some tea and eaten a sandwich). | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
I tend to agree that Shady is not deviating much from his town meta, but as I said earlier I don't think we can trust meta that much in a game like this, especially since many of us are not qualified enough to draw conclusions from it. With such a small sample size we are bound to make mistakes if we focus on it too much. In fact, I think it's too early to tell from a few hours of one-liners and newbie advice even if there was some good analysis to be had from it. As for yourself, I would think that as an experienced player you would be able to offer better advice to the beginners than: On August 24 2012 09:20 Lvdr wrote: Get out there! Don't use your newbiness as an excuse! Given that, I feel that the following comment deserves scrutiny: On August 24 2012 10:11 Lvdr wrote: New players what do you think of my claim on shady? This because this to me feels more like you are trying to make the new players do the work for you and then claim credit later on through "I made them do the analysis!". Especially since comparing meta is not something easily done during a stressful day 1 as a new player(I tried while observing XXIV, it's really confusing). So Lvdr, while I have no good reason to suspect you on anything but what I right now perceive as laziness, that could change if you don't start leading by example instead of through fingerpointing. @kushm4sta, @WeeTee: The entire point of discussion is to make people explain their thoughts and reasoning. So instead of thinking you have nothing to add, try and figure out ways to question people's motivations. Why, for example, did players call you out in the way they did? Was it to deflect? Was it to make themselves seem overly active while they in fact were not? Was there another reason such as simply trying to help you start contributing? There is a good reason for the "lynch the lurker" policy. This because it is in the towns interest to catch scum with dubious motivations or casting blame on shaky grounds and that can only happen if we force them to speak up. Thus, the worst thing you can do right now is to stay quiet and offer yourselves up to scum casting the blame on you without themselves seeming suspicious. Instead, what we presumably want to encourage are lots of backs and forths in order to have a history on who everyone suspected and when, and for what reason(the filter button on the right side of people's posts are good for seeing this). As long as you carefully think about your arguments, no self-respecting townie should have any problem with starting discussion. Things to start discussions about can be: Who seems to be promoting the town agenda? Who are the people that look the most suspicious to you? And why! Is there someone who you feel are using bad or dodgy reasons as basis for their arguments? Looking at the thread there have been a few posts since I started writing this, will read and post more in a while. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On August 24 2012 11:02 kushm4sta wrote: (Emphasis mine)Also thrawn...this dude is just appointing himself town leader with his epically long posts with quotes etc, also intiating all topics of discussion. It seems like he is trying to make himself essential so no one will suspect him. Why would anyone care as much about the minutiae of lurker policy as thrawn? Because his scum strategy is to not be a lurker and provide justication to lynch any innocents that might be lurking. I like that you are starting to contribute to the discussion. I don't, however, agree with your conclusion. If you look at the following post(long, so spoilered it): + Show Spoiler + On August 24 2012 09:34 thrawn2112 wrote: If it comes down to voting for a strong scumread and one of several lurkers, I'd rather go with the scumread. Being too focused on lurkers caused me to play poorly in my last game. If I make a strong case against a player I am definitely going to vote for them. Excluding that, lynching a lurker is the backup plan. Your experience of how mafia players lurk during newbie games is something I don't have so I don't share your commitment to a flat out "only lynch a lurker during D1" plan. I don't think that "worst outcome of lurking is to not get lynched" but I don't think that D1 is the time to do it. Of course there are always exceptions...such as the player who has 4 posts at the end of D1, he's sheeping the popular cases, and never offers any original reasoning for his votes. But yeah, hopefully lurking won't be an issue. I expect all this talk about lurker policy will help achieve that. And this disagreement isn't that big of an issue to me, because if I have a case worth lynching someone over then it should be a strong enough case to convince everyone else. That post also caught my eye and I suggested that he comment on the current discussion but so far there's been nothing. Kush it's not too big a deal this early on but the longer you wait the worse it's going to look. In this post thrawn argues with Lvdr about the lyrker lynch policy and makes clear and concise arguments and in fact comes to the conclusion that the policy post did it's job in that it put focus on starting discussion. Something which is good for town. You then immediately jump to the conclusion that he must be scum that wants to look like town. I feel this is overly aggressive on your part and while it's entirely possible that you are just feeling attacked right now and reacting a bit emotionally, please understand that things are not personal. If you are in fact a townie trying to cast blame on someone you suspect as scum, you should use clearly articulated points with a clear explanation of the basis of your argument. So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting. FoS kushm4sta | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
Someone provided it during the early stages of XXIV and so here it is in this one too. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On August 24 2012 11:27 thrawn2112 wrote: If it was not clear from my post, that's what I think too. However, looking at his filter it consists more or less entirely of oneliners. Admittedly they are all somewhat pro-town oneliners. We're also only a few hours into the game, but I called him out because he could probably have done a better job of encouraging that discussion.I think what lvdr was doing was what you explained here: I don't see it as anything more than trying to get discussion going and to get reads from players who haven't given any. Lvdr, Shady, and I have been doing it all game. (questioning people and asking for reads) My point, if I did not make it clear enough was the following post: On August 24 2012 10:11 Lvdr wrote: The claim that he is referring to is that he thinks Shady Sands is acting like he was in his previous game. This is something that I feel is not a good way to encourage someone new to join the discussion since as I pointed out, I do not feel that comparing meta is particularly easy. In fact, with only a game or two to go off, it's particularly informative or revealing either. Sure, if someone experienced really wants to take the time to compare metas, then don't let me stop you. New players what do you think of my claim on shady? I stand by my argument however that it's not a good starting point for a beginner. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On August 24 2012 11:45 kushm4sta wrote:Wow you sounded really smart about lvdr he seems fishy how he constantly shifts the focus to those he knows aren't mafia. And he does it in a very non constructive way. However you suspect me for some reason which is just wrong. I've already warned you, this is not a game based on gut feeling and emotion. A statement such as "85% mafia" is something which needs a lot more evidence than a few one-liners this early into the game. You are providing a lot of controversy with very little thoughtful analysis. I ask that if you are truly town to take a good look at yourself and think. You most certainly do not have to blame someone else in order for yourself to look like less of a target. In fact, baseless accusation only lets scum attack you for being incoherent while in one fell swoop make themselves look like town-heroes. This with town having only to agree that you were playing very weirdly.If I were mafia I would be super nice and would not be aggressive or defensive in any way actually. It's because im town that I'm not afraid to act like this because I have nothing to hide. Basically I think you are mistaking "bad play" for guilt. Lvdr is 85 percent mafia in my mind though. We should lynch him. I do believe that you are simply responding in a knee-jerk fashion to our attacks against you. Take a deep breath, take a look at what you have said, and think about if you really had good reason to say the things you did. If not, simply tell us. But if you truly suspect someone, you absolutely must provide better evidence than "waaah, he called me bad!", otherwise the rest of us can't make any sense of your suspicions. | ||
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Sweden995 Posts
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On August 24 2012 12:09 Spaghetticus wrote: No worries!Oh and I apologise for the quoting format of that last post, I'll need to play around with the forum tools in order to make it more easily readable. Both of my quotes were of Shady's quote criticisms, so I have pasted in the quote he was criticising, then added his response underneath in both cases. Once again, my apologies  Actually I find some of your analysis intriguing and while I'm not as eager to suspect Shady Sands had any other intention than spur on some healthy conversation I would like to make it known that I'm backing you up on wanting an explanation. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
That being said, while there has been some analysis of other posters, I would love it if we could stop focusing on kushm4sta for now. This in order to make sure people who hasn't contributed much yet are grilled about it, and that we make sure there is more than a single person being attacked. I noticed that Shady Sands also completely dodged the accusations by Spaghetticus after a post claiming he had to get some work done but has been very busy on TL for the last 2,5 hours. So, in conclusion, please stop the tunnelvisioning on kushm4sta for now and let's see if we can't find something else to talk about for a while too. After all, there's a lot of time left before lynch. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
I'd just like to state the fact that among the people that have been active so far every single one has pointed out that kushm4sta's posting quality has not been particularly stellar or helpful from town's point of view. It has however sparked a lot of conversation. I also feel that we have all conveyed our feelings that in order for his posting to help town, he needs to start putting a lot more thought into his arguments. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On August 24 2012 15:04 Shady Sands wrote:That was the work I was talking about. Got the email with a request to do some on the ground research about it =) Haha, ok, I forgive you. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On August 24 2012 15:06 WeeTee wrote: First I would like to point out that I have not been the only one to criticize kush as you claim, several people jumped on the bandwagon(for good reason, I might add) when he first started accusing people.I will put a FoS on Alsn for this But it is undeniable that kushm4sta is rubbing everyone the wrong way. Let me know what you think about Alsn Fos-ing Kush, Does Alsn see an easy opportunity to take someone out? and why is he the only one that chirped up for the obvious? I would also like you to see my latest post where I explicitly say that we should stop worrying about kush for now as I think it's taking up too much of our attention. I have every intention of forgiving kush's mistakes, if he can start acting like that's what they are, instead of coming up with convoluted explanations as to why he feels the way he does. If you do not consider my latest post on kush to satisfy your suspicions against me, could you explain to me why that is? | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On August 24 2012 15:22 WeeTee wrote: I do not mean that my suspicion against kush has gone away, I am still not satisfied with his defense against my concerns about his posting.@Alsn I like you response verrry smooth. I must have started writing before you posted so sorry for that. Are you willing to say that kush is in the clear then? or do you think there is something underlying still? I guess throwing around FoS can mean next to nothing, especially if you change your mind so fast. I wonder now you have stopped leading the bandwagon if someone will pick it up again. Kush is an easy target. What I mean is that it is harmful for town if we keep arguing back and forth about kush and do not discuss anyone else. This because if it turns out that noone else is scummy, and we lynch him and he turns out to be town and just wasnt defending himself very well, we will be back at square one, except with 5 town against 2 scum(scum will undoubtely kill a townie during night 1). If at that point the only thing we have done is attack someone that had a hard time defending himself, we would have almost no usable information at all to try and find out who is scum and who isnt. Thus, I just want us to all agree that kush needs to get his act together but that we need to start talking about something/someone else too. | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On August 24 2012 15:24 Dandel Ion wrote:I think it's not generally well-recieved in mafia to argue by using a players activity in the rest of TL. Afair it's not explicitly forbidden in this very game, but it's still a bad argument, and you shouldn't use it. Alright, point taken, I'll refrain from it in the future. I just found the timing of their postings to be a bit weird as their posts were within a few minutes of each other. In retrospect and checking out that other thread I now realize he wasn't intentionally saying nothing here, he was simply not reading.My point however wasn't so much the inactivity as the fact that I would still like to see him respond to Spaghetticus. | ||
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