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CvZ : Modern Blink Immortal Templar [ PvZ ]
--> Double Archon Timing
Revision [ 1 ]
Overview
Over the past couple months I've been playing with my own style. I really wanted to try out my own ideas that I honestly thought would be really fun to play, with a goal of having a style that has a high skill ceiling. All Zerg players should be very comfortable playing against Colossus compositions nowadays, and there's honestly only so much you can do with a Colossus centric army. I focus on a composition that revolves around Blink/Immortals/Archons (and later HT).
Imagine you have Immortals in PvZ. What are they bad against? Lings, Mutalisks, and Broodlords (most things are bad against Broodlords though). So, if you want to make Immortals, what unit would have great synergy with them? Archons of course! Imagine an army in PvZ made with Archon/Immortals. This army is extremely tough (given that zealots and sentries are present as well), but sadly rather immobile. I haven't solved my problem of getting away from using those boring Colossus!
Blink and Warp Prism. These are your tools. Use them and love them. Blink grants your army a highly mobile option, and warp prism allows great versatility as well. In my style, which was happily dubbed CvZ one day on my stream by one of my fans (Cecil vs Zerg haha) your play will focus around Immortal/Archon/Blink/DT/Warp Prism. Throw in Voidrays and/or HT in the late game, depending on what tech the opponent goes for.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/czieh.png) Executing a strong push once the double Archons finish.
Choose your Opening
Really, go ahead and choose your favorite opening! Any! As long as it puts you at least on equal footing with the Zerg's economy. My absolute favorite opening is a 1 Gate FE, so I'll briefly cover it.
- Pylon
- Gate
- Assimilator
- Pylon
- Cybernetics
- Zealot
- Assimilator (2)
- Stalker or Sentry
This is the basic opening pathway for most Protoss openings in all matchups. If you cannot do this without perfection, then go practice it in YABOT until you can. Next you do the following:
- Pylon
- Nexus
- Gate -> At Nat
- Gate -> At Nat
- Make Sentries non-stop from your 1 single Gateway
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GJqkb.png) Try using this very cool sim-city! Er.. Well that's not the best place for the Zealot 
The Gameplan
Here is the really interesting part. After your three Gateways are up and you Saturate your Natural with about 16 probes on minerals, you place either a Robotics Facility or Twilight Council. Twilight Council first is great for fast DT, which is good if the opponent is delaying Lair tech and staying in Ling Baneling. It's also a good way to win a lot of fast ladder games with fast DT tech. Just be sure to research Blink before any large engagements, if you can help it.
Robotics Facility first is more standard an much safer, as such I recommend it. Once you lay the Robotics Facility, chrono out 1 Observer followed up with either one or two Warp Prisms. These Warp Prisms are going to do wonders for you if you use them well. They will allow you to tech to Blink and DT while taking a third base - you can even take an early third base on a lot of maps.
This Warp Prism needs to be used in a specific way. Here are the priorities for the Warp Prism in descending order starting with the highest priority:
- Do not lose any gas units (zealots are okay), and especially don't lose the Prism!
- Show active presence to the Zerg player.
- Kill enemy units (drones!).
Very simple! What this sort of priority schema will do is it will force the Zerg player's attention onto the prism, and keep the prism as a constant threat. Every moment the Zerg player does not have defending forces in place to fend off the Warp Prism, show presence and land units. Warp in some Zealots -you can afford to lose a few here and there! This keeps a large amount of the Zerg's forces on the opposite side of the map, giving a much easier time to take your third base.
On more open maps like Tal'Darim you should chrono out two Warp Prisms and harass two locations constantly! You should also do this on maps where a three base Zerg is very spread out (Xel'Naga Caverns, Shakuras Plateau if they take the edge base).
It is essential to show at least one Warp Prism in order for you to not fall behind economically. Otherwise you won't have a fighting force with your two Archons until about 12 minutes into the game, which is much much too late.
After you lay your Robotics Facility and order your Warp Prism, lay down your Twilight council, immediately followed by 2 more Gateways. You need the additional Gateways to keep up with your 2 base full saturation. Once the Twilight Council finishes you should have about 3-7 Stalkers, 6-9 Sentries, and an amount of Zealots. Start researching Blink as soon as you can afford it. Continue Stalker production in order to have a nice bulk of Stalkers to make use of Blink (about 8-14 Stalkers).
Next you need to save up a bit of Vespene, so I recommend taking a third base, or warping in a lot of Zealots. This vespene is for DT tech followed by Dark Templar. Keep in mind you should have had a good amount of action with your Warp Prism(s) at this point in time!
Now here should be your current setup: 5 Gateways, 1 Robotics Facility, Blink, and DT tech. Start Chronoboosting out Immortals. Once DT Tech finishes, warp in 4 Dark Templar and morph them into Archons, and if you have the resources place some DT around the map.
You now have an excellent infrastructure to produce a very scary army! You have Immortals, which are excellent against Roaches and Ultralisks, you have Archons which are good against everything except Brood Lords -and exceptionally good against Ling/Muta, you have Blink Stalkers for Mobility and core army supplementation, and Warp Prism/DT which has great harass synergy! All of these types of units work extremely well together and have amazing synergy!
Now you might have been wondering what this Double Archon business is about. Well the moment your Dark Shrine finishes is the moment when your army is "complete", and at this time you just so happen to always have enough resources for 2 Archons. I find it's a really great timing where the army value of your army spikes sharply, and often times I simply win the game at this point due to the Warp Prism harass slowing the Zerg player down so so much. With your Double Archon timing, you should have somewhere around 15 Stalkers, 6-10 Sentries, 2-4 Immortals, and 2 Archons with a rabble of Zealots.
Once your third is complete (often times around or just before the Archons finish, you can support 2 Forges 3-4 more Gateways and another Robotics Facility. You need two Robotics Facilities at this point in the game to replenish Observers, Warp Prisms, and Immortals. If you feel these Forges are a little too late, you can simply delay the timing of your Blink by a minute or so and research +1 attack (around the time you lay the Twilight). I do this very often.
Summary:
- Opening to Three Gates (FFE is acceptable, I included a FFE replay).
- Robo -> Obs -> Warp Prism(s)
- Twilight Council
- +2 Gateways
- Blink
- DT Tech
- Third Base + Immortals + Stalker/Zealots
- @100% Dark Shrine 2 Archons + DT Harass
- If you are ahead of your opponent, the 2 Archon timing will likely secure a win!
- @3 Bases have: 2 Forges; Templar Archives (going for Storm)
- If Broodlords : Blink Stalkers OR Voidrays (Voidray/HT/Immortal is basically unbeatable!)
Notes for Engagements
There is really only one time of engagement that will take some practice, other than practicing general good PvZ engagements, and that is against an Infestor count of 5+. Against Infestors, it's best to Blink a small group of Stalkers onto the Infestors and snipe the ones with the most energy. I tried exemplifying this in one replay against engulfSAGA and misclicked and Blinked all my Stalkers forward, and didn't pick off any Infestors. This is bad!
When you engage Roach/Ling/Infestor you need to try to FF the Infestors away from your army as best you can, and space your army about as best you can. Once the enemy's Infestors are away from the core army roach/ling, then is the time to blink a group of 5-7 Stalkers at them and pick off 2-3. This will reduce the Fungal count immensely and also force down wasted fungals on your small group of Stalkers. Also Immortals and Archons take a lot of damage to die from a fungal, so fungal isn't very effective against them -Archons also deal hardly any damage to Immortals/Stalkers if neural parasited!
It takes some practice, so play with a friend in a unit tester for a bit with equal food counts! I assure you the battle will come out even. Just be sure to have less Immortals if no roaches, in favor of Archons!
Important Notes
I've had a tough time against very heavy Hydralisk counts. This is due to a delayed AoE tech of Storm or Colossus. If spotted, it's best to immediately tech switch to Chargelot/Archon and head towards Storm asap! It's also important to stay on top of your upgrades, go double Forge if you have to (three base or higher)!
Against pure roach or macro roach, I simply get a second Robotics Facility before my third base, and favor a lot more Immortals. Similarly, against very little to no Roaches, get less Immortals more Archons/Stalkers/DT. Just don't be afraid to make Immortals if you see no Roaches at all! You need to have at least two in the event of a tech switch from the Zerg player. You'll see in my replays that I always have a few Immortals in my composition - that's because they cannot be hard countered. Immortals are just good against everything except ling/muta, which the Archons and later HT make up for! Immortals are even pretty dang good against a large Hydra count (it should be noted that against pure hydralisk compositions Chargelot Archon should be created with fast HT/Storm).
Don't be inactive with your Warp prisms! Remember, this style is intended to have a high skill ceiling, so push yourself to your limits! It's going to give all lower-tier players a great chance to improve themselves since it requires a higher degree of skill than low-apm deathballish play.
It should be noted once more that you don't need to deal a giant amount of damage with the warp prisms. It's more important that you show its presence and keep it as a threat, than trying to deal some damage while losing the prism altogether. However, if you lose the prism to mutas (happens to me all the time), well now you know mutas are on the map earlier than usual.
Replays
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Great read! I am looking forward to testing this out!
My PvZ has been suffering lately and i've been looking for a way to change up my play.
Thanks for the thread 
P.S I'm method
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ty for the guide!
I really like these for sentry-light styles that allow for more bw-esque style fights and multitasking with the WP. will grind this out and add it to my pvz tool belt ^^
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as a Zerg, I have to say colossus play is still the most threatening style that most toss seems to abandoned now in flavor for 6 gate all in etc.
personally I like this build because it actually requires the toss to do something more than just turtling and push out to hope for a win, using warp prism is extremely welcomed for me since it makes the game more interesting (I won't feel as bad when I lose to these toss players)
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On October 11 2011 15:24 Alejandrisha wrote:
ty for the guide!
I really like these for sentry-light styles that allow for more bw-esque style fights and multitasking with the WP. will grind this out and add it to my pvz tool belt ^^
Sentry light style? This build gets 10 sentries... o.o
Anyway downloading reps and checking out now! :D
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you're so good. these replays just make me think that you're just better than the people you're playing lol
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On October 11 2011 15:38 Anihc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 15:24 Alejandrisha wrote:
ty for the guide!
I really like these for sentry-light styles that allow for more bw-esque style fights and multitasking with the WP. will grind this out and add it to my pvz tool belt ^^ Sentry light style? This build gets 10 sentries... o.o Anyway downloading reps and checking out now! :D
IMO any non-colossus style outside of straight stalker/immortal or blinkstalkers is less sentry dependent and thus sentry light just because of the way you have to engage with compositions that rely on not taking any damage. With a build that utilizes chargelots your not constantly buffering the entire mass of roaches so your units don't take any damage so you have less need for ff's in mid game engagements
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Interesting...... Infestors might be a tad scary, but you can get HTs with feedback easily with this comp.
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Hm, interesting. Why the DT's instead of HT's? Would you advise using HT's instead of DT's for the archons if you can tell that DT's wouldn't do any damage? Or are HT's simply too gas intensive for the build?
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On October 11 2011 15:52 Xxazn4lyfe51xX wrote:
Hm, interesting. Why the DT's instead of HT's? Would you advise using HT's instead of DT's for the archons if you can tell that DT's wouldn't do any damage? Or are HT's simply too gas intensive for the build?
DT because I like DT tech more than HT tech. DT tech doesn't rely on hitting good FF, and also is a little less vespene intensive.
On October 11 2011 15:43 caradoc wrote:
Interesting...... Infestors might be a tad scary, but you can get HTs with feedback easily with this comp.
No actually, Archons are just really good vs Infestors. I don't like HT too early tbh.
On October 11 2011 15:38 yoonshik95 wrote:
you're so good. these replays just make me think that you're just better than the people you're playing lol
That might be. My mmr has been spiking really hard lately.
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On October 11 2011 15:52 Xxazn4lyfe51xX wrote:
Hm, interesting. Why the DT's instead of HT's? Would you advise using HT's instead of DT's for the archons if you can tell that DT's wouldn't do any damage? Or are HT's simply too gas intensive for the build?
I thought he seemed like his gas was pretty high during the first replay (only one I watched).
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So I watched the reps, and while I love your warp prism harass (especially the game on tal darim), I'm not convinced that archons actually help you/this build that much. In all the games you were already really far ahead from early game warp prism and/or dt harass and/or successful muta defense, and you were just able to roll over the zerg with a superior army. The only battle where it was an equal army fight, the zerg army was a muta/ling army which of course cannot win a straight up battle against an equal protoss army. In a more standard game where the zerg handles the harass better, the zerg will almost always have a superior army to yours, and in that case I'm not sure how you will fare.
The reason why IMO archons aren't so good is because they're kinda like zealots - melee units that don't synergize well with the main core of stalker/immortal/sentry(ff) which focuses on not getting hit. Even against muta/ling, I find that archons only do "ok." Not great at all. I wouldn't even consider archons a counter to lings or mutas. In my experience pure stalker with some zealots actually does better against muta/ling than stalker/archon/zealot in a mid-game battle for the cost - even more so if the zerg then tech switches to roaches.
That's not to say that you shouldn't get archons - because actually it makes perfect sense for your build to get those archons, DTs are great for harass especially with your warp prism play, and if you have extra gas why not make archons? It's better than DTs in your army or nothing in your army and extra gas in the bank.
I will note however that archons get better as the game goes on since although they are not as cost efficient as stalkers, they are much more supply efficient. If you can save your immortals/archons and not let them die, you will eventually end up with a really scary deathball.
So I guess my point is great build, misleading title! The power from your build does not come from archons, instead it comes from:
1) warp prism harass eventually with DTs as well
2) relatively fast twilight and robo, which gives you a very versatile army composition, blink/sentry/immortal is always good. none of this useless stargate business (I cringe every time I see people laud the wonders of protoss FE > stargate)
Change the title to "CvZ: Modern Blink Immortal Templar" or maybe just "How to play PvZ without opening stargate" :p
Oh and also, I highly recommend trying to incorporate more HT into your play, maybe not immediately but at least after you get a 3rd base up. I don't know why you hate HT so much, storm is sooo good.
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On October 11 2011 16:20 Anihc wrote:
So I watched the reps, and while I love your warp prism harass (especially the game on tal darim), I'm not convinced that archons actually help you/this build that much. In all the games you were already really far ahead from early game warp prism and/or dt harass and/or successful muta defense, and you were just able to roll over the zerg with a superior army. The only battle where it was an equal army fight, the zerg army was a muta/ling army which of course cannot win a straight up battle against an equal protoss army. In a more standard game where the zerg handles the harass better, the zerg will almost always have a superior army to yours, and in that case I'm not sure how you will fare.
The reason why IMO archons aren't so good is because they're kinda like zealots - melee units that don't synergize well with the main core of stalker/immortal/sentry(ff) which focuses on not getting hit. Even against muta/ling, I find that archons only do "ok." Not great at all. I wouldn't even consider archons a counter to lings or mutas. In my experience pure stalker with some zealots actually does better against muta/ling than stalker/archon/zealot in a mid-game battle for the cost - even more so if the zerg then tech switches to roaches.
That's not to say that you shouldn't get archons - because actually it makes perfect sense for your build to get those archons, DTs are great for harass especially with your warp prism play, and if you have extra gas why not make archons? It's better than DTs in your army or nothing in your army and extra gas in the bank.
I will note however that archons get better as the game goes on since although they are not as cost efficient as stalkers, they are much more supply efficient. If you can save your immortals/archons and not let them die, you will eventually end up with a really scary deathball.
So I guess my point is great build, misleading title! The power from your build does not come from archons, instead it comes from:
1) warp prism harass eventually with DTs as well
2) relatively fast twilight and blink, which gives you a very versatile army composition, blink/sentry/immortal is always good. none of this useless stargate business (I cringe every time I see people laud the wonders of protoss FE > stargate)
Change the title to "CvZ: Modern Blink Immortal Templar" or maybe just "How to play PvZ without opening stargate" :p
Oh and also, I highly recommend trying to incorporate more HT into your play, maybe not immediately but at least after you get a 3rd base up. I don't know why you hate HT so much, storm is sooo good.
Yeah I think you're right on all your points! I manage with Archons now, but once my MMR stabilizes more in the near future, faster HT are likely to be seen. I was told HuK has been doing basically what I detailed above except DT -> HT. I still however really like the timing when you get those two Archons!
I don't hate HT, I just haven't had a defined time in which I need to incorporate them. It's of course after 3 base currently however.
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Cecil,
Your guides have been absolutely amazing! Love your protoss innovation and idealogy to making the game more interesting
I will be trying this out and hopefully this can help me better my game mechanics on top of my general play
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Great guide !
Going to try that out later. However i think if you are already going to build Archons, build a mothership as well in case you scout the Zerg goin Broodlords. No need to actually include it in the build or even build it early, but with already a decent amount of Archons in the late game Archon toilet would make you demolish Broodlord based armies so bad.
Immortal + Archons should be able to crush Ultra tech as well, which would make both Zerg T3 hardcounterd if scouted a bit in advance.
On Paper it sounds like a really really strong compostion that has answers to everything.
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I like your style, since i've been doing a similar style for a while. I usually go for 1gate fe (one gas, then nexus, then 2nd gas, add forge and then 2 more gates for 8min +1 push while teching up to robo/twilight or only a 2nd gate and getting twilight+dts sooner or similar (comes barely in time vs roach-ling push)) with zealot-doublestalker chronoboosted pressure. Also getting +2 attack asap and blink usually slightly delayed after getting dark shrine or robo unless i see all signs of fast mutas incoming.
So what I'm personally missing here is your upgrades, they come when you take your 3rd and then double ups. Attack upgrades just make your army in pvz so much stronger and since i opt for fast twilight here like you do, I think it totally makes sense rushing to +3 attack (most of cb dumped on it after first few used on probes). They help immensily vs any unit combination the zerg can go for. However, armor and shield upgrades can be helpful and good, but only vs heavy ling, mutas or broodlords. Against other units these upgrades don't make much difference in battle. Maybe you can try this out for yourself, and if you see them going for units where these upgrades help a lot, just add a 2nd forge later to get armor and shield at the same time. If they however go for roach-hydra, roach-infestor, roach-bane or similar, attack is enough and you can just use that forge all game long without a break to get your upgrades going (after reaching +3 attack start others ofc, not before).
I think if you skip one of your two archons and get +2 attack instead (finishes around 11:30 if you do it like me), your army would be much stronger and sets for a much better mid-lategame after your 12min push.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
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Um, you're just a LOT better than the players you are facing.
However... this just flat out loses to Roach/Hydra off of 3 base. You delay storm tech and Colossi.... yeah I can't see you beating a basic Roach Hydra composition that keeps up on upgrades.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
"CvZ: Modern Blink Immortal Templar" Mmmm  where did you hear that before cecil?
Besides, I think this is vulnerable to a number of Zerg strategies (macro roach, hydras, a good mutaling) - if they hold off your harass without significant loss then the game is over I think.
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this is a really awesome guide, I am struggling in PvZ horribly right now (high plat dying to be diamond) and I am going to make this my go to build I think.
I like how it has a high skill cap (warp prisms) hopefully this will help me to improve my multi tasking and my win / loss vs zerg. I really like how this build appears to be safe in the early game and surprises your enemy with a strong attack that leaves you free to expand behind it. The warp prism is so much more versatile than I realized. I never thought to use it to save units taking fire and let them regen some shields, the health buff makes that possible now.
Question :: in game one had you taken more damage in the first or second zergling attack and he was able to get the mutas out, do you feel that you would be vulnerable to them? I didn't see any mention of mutas at all in the guide, and it appears this timing comes a few min after they would be able to be harassing your base with them. How does this factor into shutting down your warp prism play, would you just go with more blink stalkers + archons and get storm quicker, or colo?
Awesome guide!
edit :: (Take a look at game 2 and how many drones that guy has at his main / natural, wow!)
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Thanks for the guide. I've been trying to look for a way to utilise Stalker/Templar/Immortal in my PvZs and this is really helpful.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jjJjG.png)
