|
Just played 2 games and got ling rushed both games. I've been generally around low-midish diamond for a while and rarely see the early pool at this level but when i do, i always lose to it. I don't know why people say it's an autolose for Z. I never find anything auto about beating it. It's always hard for me, and I don't get why people can call it easy to stop.
First game was a 6pool on shattered which i was lucky to scout quickly. I hadn't even put down my gateway yet. So I calmly put the gateway in the normal spot, finally fought off a blocking drone to lay the forge to wall-in, but neglected to *immediately* plug the "hole" at the corner between the buildings. When the lings showed up a second later, they ran through the hole and took out the main pylon. gg.
Second game was a 7pool on Shakura's. This time I guessed wrong on the scout and came to his base basically just in time to see the lings spawn. I quickly put the forge in place and this time immediately plugged the hole, queueing a zealot and 2 cannons as soon as buildings are ready. EVEN THEN, the initial lings destroyed both the forge and gateway with me unable to do anything. Z figured he'd done enough damage and backed off, rather than try and run past the cannons (I couldn't build new buildings fast enough to keep the wall). I had an eco advantage but not a huge one, and had to start my tech over from the beginning. 200 minerals worth of lings destroyed 300 minerals worth of buildings. I 4gated him before he could recover too much and won but *barely*. It wasn't an auto-win at all. And I'm sure he could have done a runby if he'd timed it when I left my base but hadn't plugged the hole. Or could have run in and killed workers if he wished. It was satisfying to finally beat it, but frustrating how specific the defense has to be to prevent a loss, when the attack is so mind-numbingly brain-dead simple.
I feel like even though I set the buildings perfectly I only squeaked out a win and took so much damage. Please tell me if this is how holding off the ling rush is supposed to go, because I don't get the "auto-lose" part to this at all. I am also aware that there are other strats for defending besides the forge wall-in, but this one seems to have community consensus of being the most reliable. If you disagree, I'm open to ideas.
|
|
|
on shakuras you can forge fast expand and hold a 6 pool... if you scout him first, you'll be at 12 supply(assuming a 9 scout from pylon) and you STOP probe production to put down forge+gateway... cannon immediately after forge done, then gateway #2 to fill hole.. can pull probes to hold position if a gap left over until cannon done.. gg
i FFE'd on shattered temple other day in close positions and got 6 pooled(was game 2 vs a guy in a row) and scouted him first.. plopped down forge.. gateway..cannon.. brought all my probes to hold position blocking access to my main/to the cnanon until it was done.. i lost of my 12 probes.. but i still held the line, and since i already had that tech done i figure i was pretty even in that exchange regardless of going back to 6 probes.. since he would likely be at like 8 or so drones after 6 pooling.
if you arnt FFEing.. you have 13 gateway if you dont scout it fast... and if do see the 6 pool.. as before, forge right after.. can block with a pylon too.. but please stop probes until you are safe. you need the minerals. cannon after forge done.. if they at your base before you can start cannon, chrono out a sacrificial zealot while its building if you fear one your buildings is going to die
|
do you take probes off mineral lines to help defend? that might help. Delay till you get zealots and even then help the zealot with probes. Don't worry so much about mining as you are sure the zerg is behind in econ anyway. Once you lose your pylon, it should be all over for you. Protect it! And always always plug the whole. The thing with the wall is that it's harder to get it, but once they do it's easier to harass. Pull of probes to they can't destroy your buildings in general (gateway and forge). At least probes will give you time to get your cannon up and the zerg can't just keep hitting your buildings. But don't just let your probes die. Micro them back and fourth just enough to get the lings' attention.
|
I should've mentioned that both games were 12gate, which is my usual build in vZ. I have more success with that than FFE right now. Yes, I stopped probes both times and still only *barely* got the buildings up in time to hold the wall and *still* took massive damage doing so. It's not like: you defended perfectly and stopped the attack and that's gg. But that's what it always sounds like when people talk about holding the 6pool! Why is that? And I don't understand what you mean about the sacrificial zealot. Whenever I've tried to get a zealot in front of the wall, he refuses to spawn on the right side since the lings take all the available area on that side.
|
On September 09 2011 10:18 aghull wrote:
I should've mentioned that both games were 12gate, which is my usual build in vZ. I have more success with that than FFE right now. Yes, I stopped probes both times and still only *barely* got the buildings up in time to hold the wall and *still* took massive damage doing so. It's not like: you defended perfectly and stopped the attack and that's gg. But that's what it always sounds like when people talk about holding the 6pool! Why is that? And I don't understand what you mean about the sacrificial zealot. Whenever I've tried to get a zealot in front of the wall, he refuses to spawn on the right side since the lings take all the available area on that side.
to add. never make a full wall. just pull off probes and plug that hole. Lings will never be able to get a surround on your probes that way and more probes than lings can engage. A good position. I wouldn't stop probe production because it can be held off. You only need one cannon really. Just be sure to defend with probes.
|
yea. 1 cannon.. but unless the defender is higher rated and can pull back hurt probes before death with wall plug... then its not worth it and better to just stop production and plug with pylon instead of losing 3-4 ish probes while cannon finishes
|
On September 09 2011 10:22 mage36 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 10:18 aghull wrote:
I should've mentioned that both games were 12gate, which is my usual build in vZ. I have more success with that than FFE right now. Yes, I stopped probes both times and still only *barely* got the buildings up in time to hold the wall and *still* took massive damage doing so. It's not like: you defended perfectly and stopped the attack and that's gg. But that's what it always sounds like when people talk about holding the 6pool! Why is that? And I don't understand what you mean about the sacrificial zealot. Whenever I've tried to get a zealot in front of the wall, he refuses to spawn on the right side since the lings take all the available area on that side. to add. never make a full wall. just pull off probes and plug that hole. Lings will never be able to get a surround on your probes that way and more probes than lings can engage. A good position. I wouldn't stop probe production because it can be held off. You only need one cannon really. Just be sure to defend with probes.
thats just bad advice, building a pylon is alot easier and safer, pylon = 100 mins with 400 life. 2probe = 100 mins with 80 life. if u block with probes, you will probably lose at least two unless u have super gosu micro which isnt worth it when u can just build a pylon. not to mention the mining time u would lose if u blocked wih probes.
with 6 pool, rally your zealot inside your base and get a cannon up behind the gateway and forge. if the lings take down a forge or gate, rewall it behind it until your cannon is up, by which he will have to retreat and u can just cancel them and rebuild your core where your gate or forge was. if he backs off without taking down any buildings, kill your pylon and put your zealot there.
|
This link will answer most if not all of your questions.
I should add the using the search feature on TeamLiquid for 6 Pool will bring up results like the one I linked with helpful advice given and discussed. Probe micro is important in the non-walloff solutions. It is possible to cannon-walloff, though some will say that puts you behind in many ways compared to intelligent probe micro (basics here but its recommended you use techniques in first link)
|
On September 09 2011 10:39 mR.bONG789 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2011 10:22 mage36 wrote:On September 09 2011 10:18 aghull wrote:
I should've mentioned that both games were 12gate, which is my usual build in vZ. I have more success with that than FFE right now. Yes, I stopped probes both times and still only *barely* got the buildings up in time to hold the wall and *still* took massive damage doing so. It's not like: you defended perfectly and stopped the attack and that's gg. But that's what it always sounds like when people talk about holding the 6pool! Why is that? And I don't understand what you mean about the sacrificial zealot. Whenever I've tried to get a zealot in front of the wall, he refuses to spawn on the right side since the lings take all the available area on that side. to add. never make a full wall. just pull off probes and plug that hole. Lings will never be able to get a surround on your probes that way and more probes than lings can engage. A good position. I wouldn't stop probe production because it can be held off. You only need one cannon really. Just be sure to defend with probes. thats just bad advice, building a pylon is alot easier and safer, pylon = 100 mins with 400 life. 2probe = 100 mins with 80 life. if u block with probes, you will probably lose at least two unless u have super gosu micro which isnt worth it when u can just build a pylon. not to mention the mining time u would lose if u blocked wih probes. with 6 pool, rally your zealot inside your base and get a cannon up behind the gateway and forge. if the lings take down a forge or gate, rewall it behind it until your cannon is up, by which he will have to retreat and u can just cancel them and rebuild your core where your gate or forge was. if he backs off without taking down any buildings, kill your pylon and put your zealot there.
I guess to each his own. but I find it better not to make a full wall. It's not like i'm engaging the lings. just keeping them distracted and preventing them from killing off your buildings. But I suppose making a pylon is easier. Pylons can't attack though. if you're at the choke where the pylon is supposed to complete your wall, you can have several probes attacking a ling while his other lings are outside. That was the plan i was trying to convey. Just buy time for your zealot to train or cannon to warp in.
Edit: The link on the post above suggests basically the same thing I do. So I don't think it's totally bad advice.
|
might aswell throw this out here, if u hold the 6pool whats the best thing to do after that? 4gate? or expo into 6 gate or sumtin else?
|
On September 09 2011 10:53 peppilepew wrote:
might aswell throw this out here, if u hold the 6pool whats the best thing to do after that? 4gate? or expo into 6 gate or sumtin else?
Scout your opponent. If he's throwing up spines, better to expo. If he's not, you can 4 gate. Assuming you held off and you only took minimal losses to put you way ahead.
|
One way I've been managing well with is this:
9 pylon at the farthest point away from the choke, but still able to power buildings to completely wall off. Also, send scout here.
12/13 Gateway, then after detecting the dreaded early pool, throw down the second gateway and a pylon (if necessary) to completely wall in.
While his lings hammer away at your gateways, chrono out zealots.
When you have 2, pull about 8 probes off the mineral line, destroy the pylon, then making sure that you don't let lings run past you, run out and kill the lings.
If he commits to it, then he's dead. If he only made 6 lings then went back to macro mode, then you'll be in a decent shape due to a good worker count and an army that'll hold off any more lings.
This has worked for me many times, so it's not worth completely ignoring.
|
I 9 pool a lot (diamond), which is less economically damaging than a 6 or 7 pool, but it still takes an economic punch and has a few of the same problems for a Zerg that a cheesier pool would.
It's tricky for the Protoss. I mean, the first step is even holding off the pressure without taking much of any damage which is in itself an impressive feat. The second part, your follow up, is again something that can easily be screwed up.
Holding it off? I can't help you. I don't play or know protoss, so I'd be pulling things straight out of my ass... which isn't comfortable for anyone. I'll defer to a protoss who knows what the hell they're talking about on that subject.
The follow up? As a Diamond zerg that drops quite a few early pools, there's some valuable information I can give you.
What's Artosis' arguably most famous quote, again? "If you're ahead, get more ahead!" Let's take a look at this statement and what it typically means to most players. Now, I'm not most players, but the feeling I get from that statement is "If you're ahead in bases/workers/tech, get more tech, bases, or workers!". This usually works... but what if you're already ahead in tech, bases, and workers?
Well, instead of increasing your own numbers, use yours to kick the shit out of his.
You're ahead in tech.
With an early pool (basically anything short of a 14 pool) you kind of can't afford to get gas very early without putting the hurt on your mineral economy. Especially considering the zerg is already investing into army instead of workers, his mineral economy is going to be pretty damn bad and he'll need to get that back online before he can worry about neat little things like zergling speed, lair tech, Roaches, or detection.
You're ahead in bases.
"1base vs 1base sez wut?"
We're going to reverse the common concept that Zerg needs to be a base ahead of their opponent, and use it to your advantage. Normally, people say Zerg need to be a base ahead of their opponent, yeah? Doesn't that mean a Zerg base is less than a Protoss or Terran base, then? Taking that concept, let's do some thinking.
Consider what a Zerg can make off one base. More importantly, consider the defensive units a zerg can make off one base. Spine crawlers? Yeah, but they cost minerals, drones, time, and can't attack. Even forcing spine crawlers to be made has damaged an already fragile Zerg economy. Tech to infestors? He shouldn't even be close. Roaches? One base fully saturated should produce a fair amount of roaches, I'll admit. I'll say you should be able to outproduce him by a mile, but I'd actually have to test that to see if it's true. It really, really should be.
I think it's pretty safe to conclude that given the choice between being a one-base Protoss and a one-base Zerg, the wiser choice is Protoss.
So we expand ASAP, right? NUUUUUUUUUU. You're already ahead in bases! You don't need to be -more- ahead in bases yet, so rather than immediately investing in an expansion of your own, make sure he can't expand, first! After you've unsecured his expansion, you can take your own secured expansion, but if you take your own and let him get his, it opens up a new world of possibilities for him. That's decidedly bad for you.
Note that with a 9 (or later) pool it's very likely that he's trying to expand super duper fast as well as pressure. Important to keep in mind, because if that base gets up and gets spine crawlers, you're in trouble again.
You're ahead in workers.
We've established that he's behind in tech and would have to hurt his already-fragile economy to get some. We've established that he's behind in bases because Zerg is friggin' strange. We know he's behind in workers because you held the push cleanly and your macro was at least 85% efficiency through the whole ordeal, so there's no way he's ahead in workers. Good, you're ahead in workers. What does that mean?
Damn cost efficiency. Congrats! You no longer need to be cost effective! A zealot dies to only one zergling? No problem! The fact that he had to make zerglings to not die means his economy is still terrible, while your nexus can keep merrily producing probes at a somewhat comical rate! Note, please don't take this to the extreme and rally individual zealots into his main... still make a solid effort to not lose all your shit for free... just know that even though it feels like you're not being cost-effective, any defensive units the poor zerg has to make at this point just put so much hurt on his economy that it'll soon come to the point where he couldn't even afford workers (larva D if he had the breathing room to.
Enough words! What do?
Here's where I theorycraft like a boss, and you tell me I'm fucking dense and it won't work for X or Y reason. That's okay, I try to help!
Thought one - Post-apocalyptic cannon rush/contain. Cannon rushes are a pain in the ass for a Zerg to deal with under normal circumstances, yeah? You've also potentially built a forge to hold his push as well, yeah? Well, imagine a Zerg trying to hold one when he's -already- behind. Make two zealots, saunter down to his natural expansion and cockily build a pylon half-wall at the bottom of his ramp, blocked and defended by your two zealots. Build a cannon or two behind it. There are a couple of things that can happen here, all of which good for you.
He could make a shitload of zerglings and run over all your stuff before cannons come out or before the wall solidifies. Cool, you should already have a defended wall back at home, and he's now got a ton of useless zerglings that aren't drones. Crazy man that you are, you've still been producing workers outta dat nexus.
He could not make any units and try defend it with high ground spine crawlers. There's an opportunity for your Zealots to just run up the ramp and pester shit to force him to defend with zerglings until the spines are up, but for the most part you'll still have forced him to make things that aren't drones while delaying the crap out of his expansion and securing your own.
He could do nothing, in which case you trololo while securing your expansion and making damn sure he doesn't ninja nydus, muta, or drop you with his fancy one base. I recommend void rays. They're hard enough to deal with on an equal gas income. 4 gas void rays vs 2 gas infestors or mutas or corruptors or queens + corruptors or hydras really should be teh lulz. As an added bonus, it should feel like you're cheesing a cheeser :D
Thought two - Kill it with psi blades. Pretend your two gateways were nexuses and Zealots were probes. Maintain constant production, send the first four to go force some defenses (or just kill him) and rally the rest into his base to cause mayhem (or just kill him). Again, remember that they don't necessarily have to be cost effective to be cost effective. Anything made that isn't drones and can't actually kill your base is sweet.
Plus he's got no tech, so Zealots should be cost effective against whatever he's got anyhow.
...I thought I had more thoughts. Basically, as a Zerg who often 9 pools vs protoss, I'm most scared of Zealot counterpressure and cannon rush/contains that I'd have absolutely no way to hold cost effectively.
Worthy of note - A 9 pool is a whole lot less all-in than its 6 or 7 pool brethren. There's a good chance that even if the Zerg doesn't kill a gateway or two zealots or seem to cause a lot of damage in any way - You cannot assume you're ahead in workers or bases. There's still plenty of opportunity to deny his expansion with zealots, but you won't be anywhere near as ahead in bases or workers as you would be against a 6 or 7 pool. You'll still be ahead in tech, meaning Zealots are still good against everything and cannons are still scary, but you can't afford to be too cost inefficient, meaning any followup push from -you- is more risky than it might otherwise be.
Cheers, hope I was helpful!
|
Okay shit lol a lot of bad advice here lol....Master toss here, if you make a gateway at 14 even you can hold a 6 pool. The thing is that if you scout the zerg in the first position, you will immediately see the 6 pool meaning you can drop a forge asap, btw you have to cut probes (cutting at 14 food to be exact) if you scout them in later positions 2nd or 3rd. if its 2nd, then u should just see the lings running by your probe. In this case, immediately wall in with a gateway or a forge and a pylon for the gap. Depending on how much minerals you have, build either a zealot or a photon asap. Try to make it so that the photon can form a secondary wall so you can drop a 2nd pylon in case the first wall falls. And as for the 3rd position, really you should never be scouting the zerg in a last position...on maps like tal darim, you need to double scout if you do not scout the zerg after the first position in order to defend a 6 pool.
On maps like shattered temple, you should send the 10th probe to the close air position to see if the overlord is comin at you. IF the zerg pulls back before your probe can see his overlord and he's 6 pooling you, you're screwed. I honestly don't know how to deal with the last variation( although its quite impossible to scout and know u're in that position with an overlord and pull back before the probe sees the overlord) As for Forge expand, as I said on tal darim, if you do not scout your opponent first, you must drop your forge before you drop your nexus otherwise a 6 pool will stomp you. After not scouting the opponent in the first position, you drop the forge and send that probe out as well to scout in the last remaining position to confirm if it is or isn't a 6 pool. Same as before, if you scout the lings running past your probe, completely wall off with gateway then throw down a cannon and finally add on a pylon. It is imperative that you throw down that pylon so if he's blocking you with a drone, make sure u can kill it or get it the hell out of the way.
Sidenote * you can rewall behind your wall thats getting broken through if necessary and you'll still be ahead, do not get greedy and start making probes before you've completed the cannon*
Also, note that if you open with a gateway you can also add another gateway instead of a forge but you must fully wall off until your chronoboosted zealot pops out and then cancel the building pylon (this however requires good micro, so if you do not have good micro, then opt for the forge).
Oh yea I forgot to add, if you finish your wall off and your cannon will finish before the lings can take down your buildings you can start building probes, for the double gateway variation you can start building probes as soon as you no longer need to produce zealot.
The followup, I see a lot of people opt for DTs or Voidrays, but honestly, transitioning into a macro game as you normally would is viable, transitioning into a 4 gate is possible, and these 2 are prolly better than trying for DTs or voidrays. Personally, I transition into a macro game, and move out with zealot to try to pressure the zerg so he doesn't catch up on drones, making sure he doesn't have a hidden base is also very important(achieved by sending probes to scout bases)
|
On September 09 2011 14:43 Cloudshade wrote:
On maps like shattered temple, you should send the 10th probe to the close air position to see if the overlord is comin at you. IF the zerg pulls back before your probe can see his overlord and he's 6 pooling you, you're screwed. I honestly don't know how to deal with the last variation( although its quite impossible to scout and know u're in that position with an overlord and pull back before the probe sees the overlord)
You're not screwed if you don't scout the six pool. Just keep the lings busy by microing probes while you wait for zealots or a cannon to pop out. If the lings go after your probes, send them back to your mineral line. Once they start going for buildings again, go back and attack the lings. Repeat again and again till you're confident with your zealot numbers or you have a cannon, then you only need maybe a few probes just to keep him from running by.
btw you have to cut probes (cutting at 14 food to be exact) if you scout them in later positions 2nd or 3rd.
By cutting probes, you are just letting the zerg catch up to your worker number (if he's the type that decides to macro after initial lings). By walling off completely, you're giving away your buildings. I know walling off is easier than micro-ing probes, but no one said defending cheese was supposed to be easy. That is why I am trying to encourage people to not fully wall off and use probes to defend. If done properly, you're more ahead then walling off and re-walling off. You open yourself to playing a macro game because you don't have to feel like destroying one of your buildings you used to re-wall while you also maintain the option to go 4 gate. You can also get +1 attack too (if you built a forge) because it deceives the zerg sometimes thinking they can take your army on but subsequently find their lings melting because of the 2 hits to zealots instead of 3.
|
Netherlands19141 Posts
No replays means no topic. Please read the strategy forum posting guidelines and recreate this topic with replays added.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
