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[G] - remaking the sentry expand (PvZ)

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Keilah
Profile Joined May 2010
731 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-24 21:48:35
May 22 2011 08:38 GMT
#1
Updated with a replay, more will be coming. Hopefully I get a decent zerg opponent =p


OK, so by now everyone knows about the 'Losira timing attack' where the Zerg hits with a strong roach/ling timing attack against a standard 3gate sentry expand Protoss shortly after the expansion nexus completes. Sentry expand was everyone's standard of standards, but now it's really hard (many would say almost impossible) to hold off the roach/ling attack without taking serious losses, or blind building enough cannons to set you behind in economy. So is sentry expanding dead? Do you need to practice FF micro for 5 hours a day and memorize the correct simcity positioning on every position of every map? Nahhhh, just make a few tweaks and you're good.

So here are the tweaks:
-2gate sentry expand instead of 3gate. Brought to you by reduced sentry build time.
-Build 2 cannons blind at 7:10, so they complete just in time for the attack - if you need them.
-Send out hallucinated phoenix(es) at around the same time as you build the cannons, so you will either see the attack coming, and keep the cannons, or see that it is NOT coming, and cancel the cannons to get 225 minerals back.

And there you have it. It's not quite as powerful and greedy as not building cannons or getting hallucinate, praying the attack doesn't come, but it works and hallucinate is always nice. ROOT.Minigun says he prefers blind building a single cannon, keeping it always, and relying on FF micro to win, but... yeah... not everyone is capable of that.


These are the goals I set out for the build. They are open to discussion but I believe they're effective:
+ Show Spoiler +
-warpgate research complete at 6:00 - requires 3 chronoboosts, assuming you 14gate which gets the cybernetics core done around 3:50

-forge complete with 300 minerals available at 7:10 for completed cannons at 7:50

-hallucinate complete at 7:10 - it takes about 25s for a phoenix to go across most maps, so it will be over your opponent's hatchery in time to cancel your cannons if there are no roaches. This requires one chronoboost. You'll want to use 2 chronoboosts and complete hallucination by 7:00 on maps that take a long time to cover the attack path and reach the enemy main.

-spend 100% of gas at all times, until you finish sentry production

-Build probes nonstop, with as many chronoboosts as possible, as early as possible. Assuming 3 chronoboosts on warp, that leaves you 4 to spend on probes before it completes. You also get a 5th and 6th available while hallucinate is researching. You might want to use your first chronoboost on the zealot, and you might want to save the 5th and 6th to use as a reaction based on what the phoenix sees. In my build I assume you can't use a 3rd boost on probes before starting a zealot, but if you see that it's safe it does give you a better economy without needing to change anything in the build.

-put the forge AND 3rd gate into the expo wall? I'm not certain the forge is necessary, since you'll have 2 cannons, but it could be helpful - could also be a liability in case they do some goofy allin and force you to abandon the low ground. Anyways, to get the forge into the wall on time you need a low ground pylon started by 6:00. My tests give me 1 zealot and 2 sentries around 5:15, the 3rd around 5:50, and the 4th/5th around 6:10. Can the pylon be planted and defended with 1z/3s for ten seconds until the 2 extra sentries arrive? Someone better than me can answer that. If you have 2 cannons, 1-2 pylons, and just the 3rd gateway in the wall, is that enough?

-nexus planted ASAP, as long as it's after 5:50. I say this because, if you get hit with some sort of faster roach attack with less drones before the 7:30 mark, you might need to cancel your stuff on the low ground and retreat up your ramp. 20s + of FF stalling with no backup DPS is probably unrealistic. Also, 5:50 is when you get your third sentry, and before that I'm 99% certain you can't leave your ramp to fight off speedlings.

-3rd gate planted in time to keep up with your income - this one I'm including as a formality really, since between chronoboosts, nonstop probes, 2 gates, and building geysers at the expo, I find there's no trouble at all keeping the money spent. I also think a 3rd gate might not even be necessary - 2gates will spend your income up to the point of the attack, and you get a phoenix into his main by 7:50, so you can still decide to build a faster robo or something instead of more gates. Cancelling the cannons when you determine there's no roach rush coming does leave you with a bunch of minerals, but there's no harm in being flexible in the way you spend them.

-Have ways to branch off the main build into some variant(s), based on scouting at certain times - this is frosting on the cake for some determined individual, I won't touch this but it's worth mentioning.

-Is there anything else that needs mentioning? I don't think so. Feel free to add something if it's important.

If you think these goals are bad in any way, feel free to say so and we'll try to figure out something better.

And now, on to the build:
+ Show Spoiler +


-constant probes at all times, I won't say it over and over

9 -pylon, scout
10 -2 probe chronoboosts in a row
14 -gate
15 -gas
16 -pylon
18 -cybernetics core
18 -gas #2
19 -zealot
-chronoboost probes again
23 -pylon
24 -warp gate research (chronoboost this 3 times total)
24 -sentry
-chronoboost probes again (this is the 4th time)
28 -gateway #2

From here I'm not giving supply counts. Your income will line up pretty nicely with the timings I point out.
-keep up the nonstop probes. Don't chrono them any more until you've scouted him with the hallucinations - you might want to use a chronoboost on your gateways if you spot an attack.
-build nonstop sentries as gas allows, don't make other gateway units even though you will waste a bit of warpgate build time. You can build stalkers or whatever AFTER you lay down the cannons.
-build your 4th pylon in main, 5th pylon on the low ground. Start the low ground pylon no later than 6:00 if you want your forge to be part of your walloff.
-queue up hallucinate just before warpgate finishes. Chrono this once on spawns where the phoenix can fly straight over the path the roaches will take and into the enemy base. Chrono it twice if you'll need to take a longer route, like on Metalopolis cross positions - you need the phoenix to be in his base before the cannons complete so you can be certain it's safe to cancel them.
-build the nexus at 5:50
-lay down a forge by 6:25. This should probably be on the low ground in your wall.
-build one more pylon on the low ground, and make sure it's in a good position to power your wall and the 2 cannons you're about to build. You definitely want more than just 1 pylon powering your cannons
-build 2 cannons the instant the forge completes, which is around 7:10, meaning you have 2 cannons at 7:50, just as a well-executed standard roach/ling attack will reach you.
-gogogo hallucinated phoenix scout(s)! Do this ASAP when the research completes, you don't have time to spare. Send 1 per possible attack route, and make sure to have vision on his hatchery before the cannons complete. It usually takes 25s or so to cross a map. If you don't see units streaming towards you, it's 99% certain he's not attacking, but you may as well hover over his base and see what pops out of the eggs, count his drones, and check his buildings. Maybe he's just a little slow, no sense canceling cannons and then having to rebuild them a few seconds later.
-Build a third gateway (optional, you might want to do something else, but you do have the minerals at this point).
-If you see the attack coming, let your cannons complete and crush him. Might want to add on a third cannon and chronoboost your gateways to make extra sure.
-If the attack is NOT coming, cancel your cannons quick! They will be seconds from completion by the time your phoenix is over his base. I recommend spending the money on either a gateway or double gas at the expansion, with a few minerals to spare. Don't forget to use up stored chronoboost energy on more probes. You might want to keep ONE of the cannons, just for peace of mind against later zergling harass or burrowed roaches. Up to you.
-Please note: If you use the build I'm outlining and he does some crazy roach allin off of 20 drones or something, he's going to hit you before 7:30 and your cannons will be too late. Unless you're super confident you can stall with gosu forcefields, cancel everything on the low ground, retreat up the ramp, defend and push out later. He's slowed himself down just as much as you.
******EDIT*******: It also might make sense to build the forge sooner (probably by building it before the nexus), then plant your first cannon around 6:45-50 so it will be there in time to help defend vs faster roachling busts. Downsides to this are a worse economy (delayed expansion) and needing to decide whether to cancel or keep the first cannon before your phoenix reaches his main. Upside is you never need to cancel your expansion, so you pretty much insta-win vs a 20ish-drone roachling attack.*********END EDIT***********
-Please also note: on close spawns, you might want to cut ONE probe after building the nexus to get the forge and cannons down faster, since he'll be at your base a few seconds earlier.


So there you go, you're at 8:00, you've scouted him, you've got an expansion running with a healthy probe count, you've got loads of sentries, and you aren't DEAD. Good luck!


Replays:

+ Show Spoiler +

http://drop.sc/11165
OK, here's one I played a few minutes ago. The opponent was... not top-noch, and I make several mistakes, but you get an idea for how it goes. Accidentally sending the hallucinate late forced me to cancel the first cannon before I reached his main, where I did see some roaches and low saturation, so I decided to keep the second cannon. He didn't attack but whatever. He plays defensively and I expand and max out before killing him, yawwwwn, I'm not very good or I probably would have recognized that I could kill him at any time. Oh well =p
Obvious mistakes:
-queued up hallucinate before dropping nexus, delaying the expansion
-I forget to build probes a few times
-I forget to send out the hallucinate phoenixes for 20s! LOL =]
Possible mistakes:
-I built a low ground pylon before the nexus, but wouldn't have supply blocked by going nexus before pylon... hrmm...
-I built my 3rd gate before my cannons, delaying the second cannon by a fair bit, but getting the gateway up faster. For the haters who just gotta have 3gates, maybe you actually prefer this =]


+ Show Spoiler +

http://drop.sc/11169
Here's another one, it's not quite as terrible a game, but I do butcher the opening pretty badly. I also decided to try building the nexus before the low ground pylon this time. I make mistakes again, including accidentally cancelling only 1 cannons ><. You still get the idea of the build. Side note, don't bother getting double robo for immortals really early, you can't afford it ^^


+ Show Spoiler +

http://drop.sc/11170

K here's one where he actually does the attack. I have no idea why he only has 14 drones and hits later than 8:00, but he has the unit count that I believe is common, so no biggie that he has no drones. It still shows how the attack is easily held, even with my omfg bad micro. Note: position pylon #2 somewhere else, so you can build your 2nd, or a 3rd cannon directly above the nexus if you want it.
kyarisan
Profile Joined May 2010
United States347 Posts
May 22 2011 08:48 GMT
#2
the only thing that confuses me about this build is why you're getting warpgate first when warpgate is primarily used for aggression or at least the threat thereof, when you follow that up with an expansion plus cannons (that might be canceled, but still loses you 75 minerals for no actual gain).

the benefit of warpgate first is that you have the threat of heavy pressure instead of an expansion and it keeps the zerg honest, but you dont even know whether to apply this heavy pressure until youve already thrown 700+ minerals into a simcity expansion. if you were to get hallucinate first, and then warpgate second, you can see a roach ling all-in coming before you need to decide on cannons, so you won't waste money or time spent holding money on defense that isn't needed. and then WG research will finish at the same time your expansion does, allowing you to go for a 6gate +1 timing attack if you so chose.
IIIOmegaIII
Profile Joined May 2011
Sweden319 Posts
May 22 2011 08:51 GMT
#3
i think this sounds really good =)) been having probs with that timing push loads of times so im gonna give it a shot. gj!
IIIOmegaIII
Profile Joined May 2011
Sweden319 Posts
May 22 2011 08:53 GMT
#4
On May 22 2011 17:48 kyarisan wrote:
the only thing that confuses me about this build is why you're getting warpgate first when warpgate is primarily used for aggression or at least the threat thereof, when you follow that up with an expansion plus cannons (that might be canceled, but still loses you 75 minerals for no actual gain).

the benefit of warpgate first is that you have the threat of heavy pressure instead of an expansion and it keeps the zerg honest, but you dont even know whether to apply this heavy pressure until youve already thrown 700+ minerals into a simcity expansion. if you were to get hallucinate first, and then warpgate second, you can see a roach ling all-in coming before you need to decide on cannons, so you won't waste money or time spent holding money on defense that isn't needed. and then WG research will finish at the same time your expansion does, allowing you to go for a 6gate +1 timing attack if you so chose.


ye its true id prolly use that chrono for pushing out units, but the general idea is awesome.
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-22 09:16:38
May 22 2011 08:56 GMT
#5
I've noticed players going 2gate expand rather than 3gate in many of my latest ZvPs, and it seems good. It's very important to get that nexus going asap against a zerg who's macro'ing hard.

The safety cannons + hallucinate scout sounds like a smart way to be safe against the timing you mention too.

edit:
On May 22 2011 17:48 kyarisan wrote:
the only thing that confuses me about this build is why you're getting warpgate first when warpgate is primarily used for aggression or at least the threat thereof, when you follow that up with an expansion plus cannons (that might be canceled, but still loses you 75 minerals for no actual gain).

the benefit of warpgate first is that you have the threat of heavy pressure instead of an expansion and it keeps the zerg honest, but you dont even know whether to apply this heavy pressure until youve already thrown 700+ minerals into a simcity expansion. if you were to get hallucinate first, and then warpgate second, you can see a roach ling all-in coming before you need to decide on cannons, so you won't waste money or time spent holding money on defense that isn't needed. and then WG research will finish at the same time your expansion does, allowing you to go for a 6gate +1 timing attack if you so chose.


This is a good point, and getting hallucinate first may be a good option. But I want to mention that warpgate tech isn't completely worthless even on defense. Upon completion, you still basically get an entire round of units ahead, since with warp you get the units, then wait, rather than waiting first then getting the unit.

I don't know enough about the timings of everything to comment on whether that's really important or if it could be squeezed out to be made more efficient. But completing warpgate and getting that extra round of units can help defend standard speedling harass.
Wolf
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)3290 Posts
May 22 2011 09:05 GMT
#6
Oh my goodness I just tried this and had some awesome success. Thanks!
Commentatorhttp://twitter.com/proxywolf
TL+ Member
Belha
Profile Joined December 2010
Italy2850 Posts
May 22 2011 09:06 GMT
#7
I think the timming of the roach-ling push is like 7:30-7:40 in xel´naga, so the build don´t reach in time, not sure tho. Still, is nice to see the brotoss comunity unite aganist this freaking push. Nice guide.
Chicken gank op
Keilah
Profile Joined May 2010
731 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-22 09:11:25
May 22 2011 09:10 GMT
#8
On May 22 2011 17:48 kyarisan wrote:
the only thing that confuses me about this build is why you're getting warpgate first when warpgate is primarily used for aggression or at least the threat thereof, when you follow that up with an expansion plus cannons (that might be canceled, but still loses you 75 minerals for no actual gain).


-Warpgate first keeps you safer against many allins

-Warpgate first is smoother, it costs 50/50 at a time when 100/100 is bothersome

-Nobody says you have to sentry expand, lol. Gate, gas, core, gas, warp is the core of practically every protoss build. Obviously you can cut the second gas if it suits you, or build something other than sentries, or get more gates instead of a nexus, or whatever.

-I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, just the sentry expand =] Some other guy figured getting warpgate, sentries, and a nexus was a good idea, and a lot of people agreed... I'm just refining that idea.

-Be careful about saying the 75 minerals gets you no actual gain. It gives you the ability to sentry expand without rolling the dice. Before, you either spent the money or didn't, and that either gave you an advantage or screwed you over. Now, you either spend the money or you spend a little bit, and you either have an advantage or are on equal terms.
Keilah
Profile Joined May 2010
731 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-22 09:13:50
May 22 2011 09:13 GMT
#9
On May 22 2011 18:06 Belha wrote:
I think the timming of the roach-ling push is like 7:30-7:40 in xel´naga, so the build don´t reach in time, not sure tho. Still, is nice to see the brotoss comunity unite aganist this freaking push. Nice guide.


No problem. Edit the build to suit specific maps and spawns. One easy way is to cut a probe after the nexus to get a faster forge. Another way is to build the forge before the nexus. Be careful not to build the cannons so early that you can't cancel them in the case of no attack.

Also, stalling for 10s with your sentries + FFs isn't too unreasonable.
FenneK
Profile Joined November 2010
France1231 Posts
May 22 2011 09:16 GMT
#10
I'll try this out, seems well thought out. However, I do like getting fast DTs after my expand to repel the push, as they have no choice but to back out until detection.
good luck have batman
kyarisan
Profile Joined May 2010
United States347 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-22 09:26:17
May 22 2011 09:24 GMT
#11
On May 22 2011 18:10 Keilah wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2011 17:48 kyarisan wrote:
the only thing that confuses me about this build is why you're getting warpgate first when warpgate is primarily used for aggression or at least the threat thereof, when you follow that up with an expansion plus cannons (that might be canceled, but still loses you 75 minerals for no actual gain).


-Warpgate first keeps you safer against many allins

-Warpgate first is smoother, it costs 50/50 at a time when 100/100 is bothersome

-Nobody says you have to sentry expand, lol. Gate, gas, core, gas, warp is the core of practically every protoss build. Obviously you can cut the second gas if it suits you, or build something other than sentries, or get more gates instead of a nexus, or whatever.

-I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, just the sentry expand =] Some other guy figured getting warpgate, sentries, and a nexus was a good idea, and a lot of people agreed... I'm just refining that idea.

-Be careful about saying the 75 minerals gets you no actual gain. It gives you the ability to sentry expand without rolling the dice. Before, you either spent the money or didn't, and that either gave you an advantage or screwed you over. Now, you either spend the money or you spend a little bit, and you either have an advantage or are on equal terms.


i should clarify - no actual gain against a macro'ing zerg. of course the idea behind your build has a natural gain of safety against an all-in, i was just referring to the situation where you don't need the cannons and that's what causes the cancel, as in this situation - in this game where the zerg was macroing his drones off - these minerals (plus the early time spent without the minerals you DO receive back) are wasted. also i agree with you the sentry expand is a standard build and regardless of the order, will probably always be the safest way to open up against a zerg.

fyi if you get 2nd gas before core you can get hallu + sentry at the same time, although you don't actually need hallu right as your first sentry is finished because your sentry won't have the energy. however instant hallu would still be better than delayed hallu because a faster hallu means a faster WG research as well.

edit: i want to know more about which all-ins WG first is safer against?
done
Profile Joined January 2009
Germany70 Posts
May 22 2011 09:25 GMT
#12
I absolutely hate how every low player just asumes 3gate expand is not good anymore... In fact it holds this losira push off just fine every single time the protoss is not greedy as hell, and it sets the zerg really far behind in tech and economy.

FFS just build a wall and force field the holes for 2 times while building stalker/zealots and you just got an easy win... dunno why people whine about it, its not even that strong a timing imo
FataLe
Profile Joined November 2010
New Zealand4560 Posts
May 22 2011 09:31 GMT
#13
On May 22 2011 18:16 FenneK wrote:
I'll try this out, seems well thought out. However, I do like getting fast DTs after my expand to repel the push, as they have no choice but to back out until detection.

You're banking on the Z doing the timing attack. A passive Zerg who is constantly pressuring your front / sends ovie can tell if you're up to something which means he can just drone drone drone to his hearts content.
hi. big fan.
FataLe
Profile Joined November 2010
New Zealand4560 Posts
May 22 2011 09:33 GMT
#14
On May 22 2011 18:25 done wrote:
I absolutely hate how every low player just asumes 3gate expand is not good anymore... In fact it holds this losira push off just fine every single time the protoss is not greedy as hell, and it sets the zerg really far behind in tech and economy.

FFS just build a wall and force field the holes for 2 times while building stalker/zealots and you just got an easy win... dunno why people whine about it, its not even that strong a timing imo

Oh you just ooze knowledge on the matter, don't you..
If it were that easy, which it's not.. you wouldn't be seeing this many threads revolving around a single build order this long after it was introduced mainstream now would you.
hi. big fan.
NB
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Netherlands12045 Posts
May 22 2011 09:34 GMT
#15
5 dont know how he did it but i swear i saw whitera held this off by 6 gate on his stream today o.O

me myself held this several time with around 4 stalker and a high sentries count with 1-2 cannon (normally 1)
Im daed. Follow me @TL_NB
Keilah
Profile Joined May 2010
731 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-22 09:37:50
May 22 2011 09:36 GMT
#16
On May 22 2011 18:25 done wrote:
I absolutely hate how every low player just asumes 3gate expand is not good anymore... In fact it holds this losira push off just fine every single time the protoss is not greedy as hell, and it sets the zerg really far behind in tech and economy.

FFS just build a wall and force field the holes for 2 times while building stalker/zealots and you just got an easy win... dunno why people whine about it, its not even that strong a timing imo



Are you saying you can lay down the nexus before 6 minutes and reliably defend without a forge? Mad skills.
noobcakes
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States526 Posts
May 22 2011 09:39 GMT
#17
Instead of sentry expand, I change it up a bit with stargate+2gate then expand. They can't afford to produce mass roach if they want hydra and stay on top of economy.
Professional BattleCraft Player
done
Profile Joined January 2009
Germany70 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-22 10:30:28
May 22 2011 10:28 GMT
#18
On May 22 2011 18:33 FataLe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2011 18:25 done wrote:
I absolutely hate how every low player just asumes 3gate expand is not good anymore... In fact it holds this losira push off just fine every single time the protoss is not greedy as hell, and it sets the zerg really far behind in tech and economy.

FFS just build a wall and force field the holes for 2 times while building stalker/zealots and you just got an easy win... dunno why people whine about it, its not even that strong a timing imo

Oh you just ooze knowledge on the matter, don't you..
If it were that easy, which it's not.. you wouldn't be seeing this many threads revolving around a single build order this long after it was introduced mainstream now would you.


And then again in every single one of those threads some decent protoss player comes in and tells everyone how easy it is to hold this off with just decent building, some micro and not beeing too greedy...

Just listen to Minigun for example, he served the last one of these threads >.<

Edit: for everyone who is not getting it, building a forge and a cannon is not beeing greedy and reqired to be save vs this. Also not getting a nexus before 6min is.
Philip2110
Profile Joined April 2010
Scotland798 Posts
May 22 2011 10:40 GMT
#19
On May 22 2011 18:25 done wrote:
I absolutely hate how every low player just asumes 3gate expand is not good anymore... In fact it holds this losira push off just fine every single time the protoss is not greedy as hell, and it sets the zerg really far behind in tech and economy.

FFS just build a wall and force field the holes for 2 times while building stalker/zealots and you just got an easy win... dunno why people whine about it, its not even that strong a timing imo


On maps with large naturals you lose vs a good ling/roach push. Theres a reason people are trying to find alternatives.
Master Sc2 - Diamond LoL - Eu W
Keilah
Profile Joined May 2010
731 Posts
May 22 2011 10:44 GMT
#20
Well, you can either build a forge, a cannon you keep, have sick micro, and probably take decent damage (even minigun says this, he expects to lose a building or two and might be forced to overbuild sentries)

Or, you can get hallucinate, a forge, two cannons you might cancel, and hold it off with bronze micro and no/very few losses.

Whatever works for you.
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