EPT[GSL] 2012 Jan Code S RO32 D5 - Page 81
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CeriseCherries
6170 Posts
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Chicane
United States7875 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23317 Posts
Gumiho's style is pretty epic though, it is conducive to interesting games for me. He spreads himself so thinly and hits at so many points that if it goes well he looks great, if it fails he looks terrible. It's a nice balance of risk/reward. First year I've gotten a GSL pass and I'm really enjoying the freedom to browse the vods/watch live, and even watch with Korean commentary. Can't overstate the return I feel from this investment. GSL is looking great, though there have been silly games, there are no passengers anymore, EVERY player is capable of really high level play, even if they don't deliver it all the time. Such an improvement from the early days. On another point does Stephano have to come up in any thread about a GSL group containing a Zerg? It's obnoxious at this point, some of the worst fanboys, they might be worse than Idra's. At least when people derail topics with hypotheticals regarding Idra they get called out for it. | ||
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MasterKang
United States1373 Posts
On January 17 2012 05:04 blamekilly wrote: You are crazy. MMA has top 3 TvT. The only time I wouldn't bet on MMA in TvT is when he's up against Polt. You have no idea what you're talking about man. Yes Oz beat MMA but how can you say Oz looked like the better player just from a series that was close? In the protoss favored map, calm before the storm, MMA took out Oz's expansions and should've won the game but his army got split up when he rallied to the center of the map. He would've won in a proper engagement with reinforcements and superior economy. TvP late game is hard. I agree. TvP late game is just so difficult right now for terrans. There's a reason why MVP and MMA, two best terrans, have such trouble vs. P. The only player who's been known to dominate protoss (Bomber) has even lost to protoss frequently, most recently MC. PuMa used to be a TvP god, but he's been falling off as of late unfortunately. Or maybe just cause we haven't seem him play as much | ||
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MasterKang
United States1373 Posts
On January 17 2012 06:24 Wombat_NI wrote: Zenio still looking pretty good but maybe succumbed to the mindgames that happen in GSL by thinking the bunker rush was a fake, at least that's my only explanation Gumiho's style is pretty epic though, it is conducive to interesting games for me. He spreads himself so thinly and hits at so many points that if it goes well he looks great, if it fails he looks terrible. It's a nice balance of risk/reward. First year I've gotten a GSL pass and I'm really enjoying the freedom to browse the vods/watch live, and even watch with Korean commentary. Can't overstate the return I feel from this investment. GSL is looking great, though there have been silly games, there are no passengers anymore, EVERY player is capable of really high level play, even if they don't deliver it all the time. Such an improvement from the early days. On another point does Stephano have to come up in any thread about a GSL group containing a Zerg? It's obnoxious at this point, some of the worst fanboys, they might be worse than Idra's. At least when people derail topics with hypotheticals regarding Idra they get called out for it. My first year buying the ticket too, definitely an awesome decision. Loving this season. only round of 32 and we're seeing epic games. Things can only get better from here. I wouldn't be surprised if this final becomes just as exciting as the last one (MMA DRG) | ||
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XRaDiiX
Canada1730 Posts
Damn sending a pack of marines to deny hatches are what killed yugioh in that last game. Terrans can just send 1 medivac of marines to deny hatches lategame where Zerg has to use their whole army to deny Terran bases -.- | ||
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36905 Posts
On January 17 2012 06:36 MasterKang wrote: My first year buying the ticket too, definitely an awesome decision. Loving this season. only round of 32 and we're seeing epic games. Things can only get better from here. I wouldn't be surprised if this final becomes just as exciting as the last one (MMA DRG) Well..... technically..... the last final was Jjakji vs Leenock. MMA/DRG was Blizzcup | ||
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Forbidden17
666 Posts
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36905 Posts
On January 17 2012 07:33 Forbidden17 wrote: Why do people whine about balance on tournament threads? It's so silly and pointless =/ Wouldn't be TL without it | ||
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TheTurk
United States732 Posts
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On January 17 2012 07:25 Seeker wrote: Well..... technically..... the last final was Jjakji vs Leenock. MMA/DRG was Blizzcup People tend to consider BlizzCup and GSL 2011 World Championships as 'GSLs' seeing as the level of play is basically identical. | ||
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ItsMeDomLee
Canada2732 Posts
On January 17 2012 04:53 SenorChang wrote: GSL November: Came out on top in his group of: MMA, MC, Ryung, Yugioh GSL October: Came out 2nd in his group of Nestea, MMA, Nada, Keen GSL August: Came out on top in his group of: MMA, Nestea, Happy, Kyrix Yep, those are some easy groups >_> This season was his easiest group but his previous ones have always had a GSL champion in them, so not sure how you define difficult. Don't bother with that guy. He makes a point of entering every thread to hate on SlayerS.. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On January 17 2012 04:46 Jlei wrote: I disagree with some of the points here. His TvT while stylistically doesn't always look the greatest has always brought him out with the wins. He generally very good at mixing timing attacks with super greedy play. He basically TvT'd his way through Super Tournament (beating Lyn, Supernova, Ganzi, Ryung, MarineKing only losing to Polt) and GSL October (beating Keen, Nada, asd, Clide, Happy and MVP). Just because it doesn't look like MVP (which is basically godly) doesn't mean it isn't great. There is a reason he is Number 1 in ELO in TvT. His TvP hasn't really been tested but saying it isn't great because of that Oz series really isn't fair. He lost game 1 to double proxy gate in his base and lost the Calm Before the Storm game because that map is really imba for Protoss late game (which is why GSL took it out). Not saying he would have neccisarily beaten Oz but a couple of things didn't go right for him and probably cost him the series. While none of those TvT players you mentioned are mediocre at TvT, only a couple were at the time notable in TvT. In the Super Tournament, he went through some good TvTers. Supernova, Ryung and Ganzi are pretty good TvT (IIRC). But MKP has always had his achilles heel in TvT, Lyn doesn't mean anything to me (sounds like a WC3 player) and there was of course the 4-0 loss to Polt. As for GSL October, I have similar sentiments. Clide, asd, Happy and (obviously) MVP are all definitely tough opponents but Keen was dropping out at that point. Nada similar, and unfortunately I predict Nada continuing to drop. His only real accomplishment for TvT is continuously beating MVP. As incredible as that is, that's the one thing of note. Admittedly, it's a big thing, but he loses to some players that other consistent TvTers wouldn't. Not so much in Korea, but looking at his foreign TvT he's been losing to theStC, Keen. Sure, he doesn't drop many games he shouldn't, but I'm not just talking about statistics. His TvT looks far less confident and refined than his TvZ. Same with his TvP, which looks scrappy and not fully fleshed out. As for vs Oz, I think MMA had a reasonable chance of winning, but Oz definitely looked better in that series. I think(?) that series was played before the patch nerfing EMP area by 44% and before 1-1-1 had more-or-less died in Korean TvP, so the fact that CBTS is such a P-favoured map is balanced out by the whole matchup being Terran favoured. The series certainly wasn't a roflstomp, but it wasn't the work of a confident TvPer either. | ||
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Xarles
459 Posts
Of course there are some who overcome it like MC, although he did lose a match-up first. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On January 17 2012 06:35 MasterKang wrote: I agree. TvP late game is just so difficult right now for terrans. There's a reason why MVP and MMA, two best terrans, have such trouble vs. P. The only player who's been known to dominate protoss (Bomber) has even lost to protoss frequently, most recently MC. PuMa used to be a TvP god, but he's been falling off as of late unfortunately. Or maybe just cause we haven't seem him play as much I feel like neither MVP nor MMA were ever confident against Protoss. MVP has always relied on his Marine/Tank 1-2base pushes to win, and I've not seen enough of MMA to definitively say what his problem with the matchup is. I think that because there were so few Protoss players in GSL for a while, there was not as much need to innovate etc in TvP, so TvP doesn't look a great deal different to how it looked 6 months ago, while a lot of the other matchups have changed completely. As for Bomber, he is looking worse and worse recently, but losing to MC in a TvP isn't exactly indicative of the matchup being too hard for Protoss, especially as neither of those games really went into the proper lategame. Puma has only ever dominated foreigners and MC. He, like Hero, has never performed well in GSL and had a brief period of looking excellent when he beat MC had NASL 1. Then in IEM Cologne the whole matchup just looked broken (sparking tree.hugger's article on Dead Presidents). Since then, Puma has never really played a series against any other good Protoss other than Hero, with the exception of a defeat at the hands of MC at Orlando. Jjakji looked like he had pretty good TvP against Oz, but then Oz played badly that series. He also lost to Oz in KSL (IIRC) so he isn't dominating the matchup. TvP needs a few main things: 1) Innovation (new builds, new compositions, new timings) 2) Refinement (so many top TvPs look very unpolished and almost primitive) 3) Leading figure. Like TvZ had MMA, ZvT had DRG, ZvAnythingElse had Nestea and PvX had MC. Someone needs to get confidence, get really good and look really dominant doing it in a particular way. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23317 Posts
On January 17 2012 08:12 SeaSwift wrote: I feel like neither MVP nor MMA were ever confident against Protoss. MVP has always relied on his Marine/Tank 1-2base pushes to win, and I've not seen enough of MMA to definitively say what his problem with the matchup is. I think that because there were so few Protoss players in GSL for a while, there was not as much need to innovate etc in TvP, so TvP doesn't look a great deal different to how it looked 6 months ago, while a lot of the other matchups have changed completely. As for Bomber, he is looking worse and worse recently, but losing to MC in a TvP isn't exactly indicative of the matchup being too hard for Protoss, especially as neither of those games really went into the proper lategame. Puma has only ever dominated foreigners and MC. He, like Hero, has never performed well in GSL and had a brief period of looking excellent when he beat MC had NASL 1. Then in IEM Cologne the whole matchup just looked broken (sparking tree.hugger's article on Dead Presidents). Since then, Puma has never really played a series against any other good Protoss other than Hero, with the exception of a defeat at the hands of MC at Orlando. Jjakji looked like he had pretty good TvP against Oz, but then Oz played badly that series. He also lost to Oz in KSL (IIRC) so he isn't dominating the matchup. TvP needs a few main things: 1) Innovation (new builds, new compositions, new timings) 2) Refinement (so many top TvPs look very unpolished and almost primitive) 3) Leading figure. Like TvZ had MMA, ZvT had DRG, ZvAnythingElse had Nestea and PvX had MC. Someone needs to get confidence, get really good and look really dominant doing it in a particular way. I think there's not a massive scope for Terrans to do much else other than really well executed weird pressure builds, or just play MMVG better than they already have. The Terran saturation back in the dark days of GSL is also a factor that people overlook, there just weren't enough Protoss sticking around to make it worthwhile. Conversely I think that's why MC's vT is still pretty top-notch as he was required to do a lot of practice in the matchup, plus ForGG/Fin coming into the oGs house gave him another good practice partner for the matchup. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On January 17 2012 06:35 MasterKang wrote: I agree. TvP late game is just so difficult right now for terrans. There's a reason why MVP and MMA, two best terrans, have such trouble vs. P. The only player who's been known to dominate protoss (Bomber) has even lost to protoss frequently, most recently MC. PuMa used to be a TvP god, but he's been falling off as of late unfortunately. Or maybe just cause we haven't seem him play as much There aren't really any TvP specialists anymore. Continued Terran nerfs and Protoss buffs have really thrown the late game out of wack, with Protoss being able to field crazy unit compositions with upgrade advantages against the standard MMMVG from Terran. I know some are suggesting Terran try new unit compositions, but the problem is there are no reliable alternatives. Even MVP, the best Terran player out there and the master of mech, has said flat out on stream, "I will never use mech vs Protoss". If that doesn't tell you mech is bad, I don't know what ever will. The only time you can do something besides MMMVG is when you're aiming for a specific timing, usually off of two base, that involves marine/tank or lots of banshees. The only thing Terrans can do right now in TvP is work on improving their upgrade and ghost timings, which will probably make some difference but ultimately won't help fix how downright ugly TvP is. | ||
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Ansinjunger
United States2451 Posts
On January 17 2012 07:21 XRaDiiX wrote: NOOOO Yugioh!!!! Damn sending a pack of marines to deny hatches are what killed yugioh in that last game. Terrans can just send 1 medivac of marines to deny hatches lategame where Zerg has to use their whole army to deny Terran bases -.- YuGiOh was more active with changelings than any other unit, as far as scouting. Speed overseers are pretty fast. Barring that, however, good old zerglings make 10x more sense anyway. What I don't get, is that he was clearly looking for expansions in the Antiga game, but just completely neglected the one place where there was one. I feel bad for him, cuz we've all made that type of mistake. All those guys seemed to have nerve issues except MMA. | ||
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