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I don't understand why everyone is complaining about the format. First of all, it's NOT a best of 15 or 16 or some crap. It's 2 x BO7. If one team wins both BO7 (whether by 4-0 or 4-3 or whatever) you win the match. If the two teams split the two BO7, it goes to one final super epic ace match to decide it all.
Basically, depth of line-up is a bit more important, since the players a team would normally send might need to play twice, but honestly, even teams with more depth might very well end up sending their best 6 players twice anyway, rather than go deeper into their lineup to pull out average players, so it's not like teams like OZ are gonna be at too much of a disadvantage vs a standard 1 x BO7.
It makes the final ACE match super super imbalanced important of course and this actually gives teams like OZ with an S-class player an advantage.
So, in my opinion, this format is fine and balanced, and provides us with more games. + the chance for multiple ace matches. + how epic would a final ace match between like Effort/Jaedong or Jaedong/Bisu, etc. be.
I think it's awesome.
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On July 14 2009 04:06 o3.power91 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2009 02:53 Carnac wrote:
I think players can be used on both days? Would be lol if they couldn't XD
That would be epic and horrible at the same time. Can you even imagine how bad Oz would be if they could only use Jaedong on one day?
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On July 14 2009 08:34 IntoTheWow wrote:
wtf cj thumbs down God's Garden?
CJ's Zergs all have ZvZ as their worst matchup. On the other hand, it's not worth sending anything but a Zerg on God's Garden (although maybe Iris could take a game... maybe). Simple solution: get rid of the map.
The more I think about this, the more I don't like it. I'm coming the grips with the double-set idea - after all, many other sports use a multiple game playoff format. But if it's multiple games, then preferably I'd like to see multiple Bo5s.
With double Bo7, the worse players will see more time, and instead of being a real judge of depth, suddenly you're giving bad players the chance to do something flukey on multiple days. One game to prepare for = you know what you're up against. Two games to prepare for, two days in a row = at least one game will get shortchanged on prep time. I'm not particularly worried about the teams' ace players having second games (although it's going to hurt KHAN - they live on preparation), but when you're playing three or four flunkies multiple games it's a problem.
Now, I'm not suggesting that PL finals really need the level of preparation that goes into an OSL semi Bo5 - but we do like to see good games. I'm predicting we'll only see one day's worth of good games from any given team, and a lot of the results will depend on who gets luckier preparing for the right matches. Which is not a good way to determine playoff results.
If they were going to do this multiple match thing, the reasonable way to do it would be to space it out: first match of one PO Saturday, first match of the other Sunday, second match of one PO Monday, second match of the other Tuesday. And then one single Bo7 (or even Bo9) for the Grand Final. That leaves some preparation time for the teams without dragging too much.
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wow what a awesome format!
i can't wait for  Clay vs  Snow!
hopefully a 50 minute full mine-out on andromeda!
PLAYOFF MAGIC!!!
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I read all the posts in here and I still don't understand if it's been made clear how the format works.
A) I'm going to take STX/Khan for an example. Is it 2x Bo7 and ace if the day 1 and day 2 were won by different teams even with different scores? Example:
STX
STX
STX
STX
STX
STX
STX
Khan
khan
khan
Khan
Khan Ace, Khan wins 5-7? O_o
B) Or do they play 2x BO7 and whichever team has the most games won wins. Example:
STX
STX
STX
STX
STX
Khan
Khan
Khan
Khan
STX wins 4-0 1-4, for a total of 5-4? In this case they only play the ace if the scores were mirrors. Eg 4-3/3-4, 4-0/0-4.
If it's A it can create some very weird scenarios where the winning team won less games than the loser. If it's B why would they play Closer matches and set up a best of 7 when a single game would end the match? And would the match be over after STX's win in the 2nd day or would they play out the bo7 despite being already eliminated, subjecting the spectators to 4+ pointless games. Either way this format is fucked up.
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On July 14 2009 12:22 NovaTheFeared wrote:
I read all the posts in here and I still don't understand if it's been made clear how the format works.
A) I'm going to take STX/Khan for an example. Is it 2x Bo7 and ace if the day 1 and day 2 were won by different teams even with different scores? Example:
STX
STX
STX
STX
STX
STX
STX
Khan
khan
khan
Khan
Khan Ace, Khan wins 5-7? O_o
B) Or do they play 2x BO7 and whichever team has the most games won wins. Example:
STX
STX
STX
STX
STX
Khan
Khan
Khan
Khan
STX wins 4-0 1-4, for a total of 5-4? In this case they only play the ace if the scores were mirrors. Eg 4-3/3-4, 4-0/0-4.
If it's A it can create some very weird scenarios where the winning team won less games than the loser. If it's B why would they play Closer matches and set up a best of 7 when a single game would end the match? And would the match be over after STX's win in the 2nd day or would they play out the bo7 despite being already eliminated, subjecting the spectators to 4+ pointless games. Either way this format is fucked up.
It really is pretty dumb. I still don't think there's been a definitive answer on this yet either. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.
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I'm pretty sure ace match happens if it's 1-1 Bo7s regardless of total records
it would be stupid if one team 4-0s the first Bo7 and only needs to win 1 game out of the next Bo7 to take the series.
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On July 14 2009 11:52 Musoeun wrote:CJ's Zergs all have ZvZ as their worst matchup. On the other hand, it's not worth sending anything but a Zerg on God's Garden (although maybe Iris could take a game... maybe). Simple solution: get rid of the map. The more I think about this, the more I don't like it. I'm coming the grips with the double-set idea - after all, many other sports use a multiple game playoff format. But if it's multiple games, then preferably I'd like to see multiple Bo5s. With double Bo7, the worse players will see more time, and instead of being a real judge of depth, suddenly you're giving bad players the chance to do something flukey on multiple days. One game to prepare for = you know what you're up against. Two games to prepare for, two days in a row = at least one game will get shortchanged on prep time. I'm not particularly worried about the teams' ace players having second games (although it's going to hurt KHAN - they live on preparation), but when you're playing three or four flunkies multiple games it's a problem. Now, I'm not suggesting that PL finals really need the level of preparation that goes into an OSL semi Bo5 - but we do like to see good games. I'm predicting we'll only see one day's worth of good games from any given team, and a lot of the results will depend on who gets luckier preparing for the right matches. Which is not a good way to determine playoff results. If they were going to do this multiple match thing, the reasonable way to do it would be to space it out: first match of one PO Saturday, first match of the other Sunday, second match of one PO Monday, second match of the other Tuesday. And then one single Bo7 (or even Bo9) for the Grand Final. That leaves some preparation time for the teams without dragging too much.
well the main cj zergs are savior and effort with effort having his ZvZ his best MU and savior ZvZ is decent. i dont see any worst matchups for the cj zergs
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On July 14 2009 13:13 geegee1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2009 11:52 Musoeun wrote:On July 14 2009 08:34 IntoTheWow wrote:
wtf cj thumbs down God's Garden? CJ's Zergs all have ZvZ as their worst matchup. On the other hand, it's not worth sending anything but a Zerg on God's Garden (although maybe Iris could take a game... maybe). Simple solution: get rid of the map. well the main cj zergs are savior and effort with effort having his ZvZ his best MU and savior ZvZ is decent. i dont see any worst matchups for the cj zergs
Well, you're right about Effort. I sort of forgot about that. The second main Zerg though for CJ recently has been Kwanro, and his ZvZ has been less than impressive. Though he does win. sAviOr's ZvZ is well-known to be his weakest MU.
But after looking through some stats, I agree, it's weird. Every CJ player has a good record on God's Garden (although not against Zerg) and Much (a Protoss, no less) has only one loss - to Jaedong - in eight games, all against Zerg, although the other games were against mediocre (at best) players.
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United States13896 Posts
On July 14 2009 13:13 geegee1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2009 11:52 Musoeun wrote:On July 14 2009 08:34 IntoTheWow wrote:
wtf cj thumbs down God's Garden? CJ's Zergs all have ZvZ as their worst matchup. On the other hand, it's not worth sending anything but a Zerg on God's Garden (although maybe Iris could take a game... maybe). Simple solution: get rid of the map. The more I think about this, the more I don't like it. I'm coming the grips with the double-set idea - after all, many other sports use a multiple game playoff format. But if it's multiple games, then preferably I'd like to see multiple Bo5s. With double Bo7, the worse players will see more time, and instead of being a real judge of depth, suddenly you're giving bad players the chance to do something flukey on multiple days. One game to prepare for = you know what you're up against. Two games to prepare for, two days in a row = at least one game will get shortchanged on prep time. I'm not particularly worried about the teams' ace players having second games (although it's going to hurt KHAN - they live on preparation), but when you're playing three or four flunkies multiple games it's a problem. Now, I'm not suggesting that PL finals really need the level of preparation that goes into an OSL semi Bo5 - but we do like to see good games. I'm predicting we'll only see one day's worth of good games from any given team, and a lot of the results will depend on who gets luckier preparing for the right matches. Which is not a good way to determine playoff results. If they were going to do this multiple match thing, the reasonable way to do it would be to space it out: first match of one PO Saturday, first match of the other Sunday, second match of one PO Monday, second match of the other Tuesday. And then one single Bo7 (or even Bo9) for the Grand Final. That leaves some preparation time for the teams without dragging too much. well the main cj zergs are savior and effort with effort having his ZvZ his best MU and savior ZvZ is decent. i dont see any worst matchups for the cj zergs
EffOrt's best matchup is ZvT. Hands down. He's also really good in ZvZ, and significantly above average, but his ZvT is only matched by Yarnc nowadays, with JD an extremely close 3rd imo. EffOrt is also like 8-0 on God's Garden, so it is a bit strange that they gave the map the thumbs down. I can only speculate that CJ doesn't want to have to waste a zerg (namely EffOrt) on God's Garden when there's always the possibility of him losing merely by a B.O. loss or a small micro error.
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does this mean the PL finals will be this format
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On July 14 2009 10:55 Conquest101 wrote:
I don't understand why everyone is complaining about the format. First of all, it's NOT a best of 15 or 16 or some crap. It's 2 x BO7. If one team wins both BO7 (whether by 4-0 or 4-3 or whatever) you win the match. If the two teams split the two BO7, it goes to one final super epic ace match to decide it all.
Basically, depth of line-up is a bit more important, since the players a team would normally send might need to play twice, but honestly, even teams with more depth might very well end up sending their best 6 players twice anyway, rather than go deeper into their lineup to pull out average players, so it's not like teams like OZ are gonna be at too much of a disadvantage vs a standard 1 x BO7.
It makes the final ACE match super super imbalanced important of course and this actually gives teams like OZ with an S-class player an advantage.
So, in my opinion, this format is fine and balanced, and provides us with more games. + the chance for multiple ace matches. + how epic would a final ace match between like Effort/Jaedong or Jaedong/Bisu, etc. be.
I think it's awesome.
I agree with this
On July 14 2009 12:22 NovaTheFeared wrote:
I read all the posts in here and I still don't understand if it's been made clear how the format works.
A) I'm going to take STX/Khan for an example. Is it 2x Bo7 and ace if the day 1 and day 2 were won by different teams even with different scores? Example:
STX
STX
STX
STX
STX
STX
STX
Khan
khan
khan
Khan
Khan Ace, Khan wins 5-7? O_o
B) Or do they play 2x BO7 and whichever team has the most games won wins. Example:
STX
STX
STX
STX
STX
Khan
Khan
Khan
Khan
STX wins 4-0 1-4, for a total of 5-4? In this case they only play the ace if the scores were mirrors. Eg 4-3/3-4, 4-0/0-4.
If it's A it can create some very weird scenarios where the winning team won less games than the loser. If it's B why would they play Closer matches and set up a best of 7 when a single game would end the match? And would the match be over after STX's win in the 2nd day or would they play out the bo7 despite being already eliminated, subjecting the spectators to 4+ pointless games. Either way this format is fucked up.
Scenario A is not so weird (in the context of other sports and competitions) if you think about it. Imagine if this was your Bo7 final series in basketball, hockey, or whatever. Switch out your 1v1s and think of them as goals scored by a team. Team A could absolutely rape Team B in Game 1 by 9001-0. Team B could still come back and win the next four games, winning by, say, 3-0 each game. Team B wins the series even though Team A outscored Team B 9001-12.
This 'problem' exists in several other competition formats, but the majority of people don't really complain about it.
So really, this format is actually a 3 game series played between teams, with game 1 on day 1, and games 2 & 3 on day 2; the thing is, game 3 is a super sudden death game between two of the team's strongest players, an extremely tense Bo1 that concludes a two day's worth of games.
Also, I can see another reason why KeSPA decided to make 'game 3' consist of one set instead of having 'game 3' be a normal Bo7 match; the audience would probably get terribly bored after 3 days worth of the same players playing the same players, so they decided to cut out the crap and just make it a super insane Bo1 to round everything off.
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On July 14 2009 09:30 GTR wrote:
STX has Trap too and Khan doesn't have that many zergs this month for lineup or is this special lineups for playoffs?
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Germany2762 Posts
this format is so hard for teams with thin lineups... i don't think that oz will be able to win. they could win vs hite or khan, but these two teams definitly wont make it to the finals.
but well... 4 good players are enough. given the fact that they're allowed to send out the same players on both days. with jd, backho, hiya and .. well. that's the problem.
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konadora
Singapore66366 Posts
On July 14 2009 08:34 IntoTheWow wrote:
wtf cj thumbs down God's Garden?
CJ has noticeably EffOrt, Kwanro, sAviOr, Orion and Devil.
But everyone knows sAviOr and Orion's ZvZ is bad, and Devil is not sure. EffOrt and Kwanro are too much of a watse to play a highly-possible ZvZ, and there's also speculation among the netizens that CJ thumbed-down God's Garden because Leta was most likely to play on that map.
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@ GTR. You left out Justin from the hite roster.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
After seeing the lineups from each team I've gotta say I'm really excited for the playoffs!
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sorry for all you khan fanboys
but khan is pretty fucked!!!
cant see them taking this
everytime i look at this match up stx is a clear winner unless some miracle occur and no not the player
kal >jangbi (showed a nice pvp this msl)
hwasin >juni (hwasin's tvz in a bad day is decent while juni is 15%vs t ....)
shuttle > miracle (if shuttle plays like he played vs flash and no reason he wont miracle would cry his name out in vein )
that leaves 3 other matches 1 zvz which is unkown unless u'r jaedong (not tired) or effort
stork vs last is a free point for khan and calm vs fbh will be a great game but still hard to call
leaving us 3-1 to stx with unkown 2 matches
in order for khan to win they will have to avoid the last 2 matches
in ace any player khan will send can be confronted with calm or kal
just pouring my thoughts here and yes spelling mistakes is a common illness
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On July 14 2009 10:35 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2009 09:29 oshibori_probe wrote:On July 14 2009 09:25 TwoStep wrote:
Right now Stork is bad. If you knew anything about stork you would know he is one of the most consistent tosses around. To call him bad is a joke. if you knew anything about stork you would know he has been bad for the last 2-3 months.
Well Khan is definately putting alot of faith into him and he is poised to play possibly 4 games. In the first series he is playing Shades of Twilight which is the ace for the second series, and in the second series he is playing andromeda, which is the ace map for the first series.
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haha, never underestimate khan when we seldom see their b players on tv. Their backline players could still take games off since other teams hardly know their playing style. The only reason they are fucked is the maps this season is really bad for toss and the WL format. FBH can take any TvZ and TvT when he is at 100%. The reason they are at disadv is they need FBH, Jangbi and Stork to win on that day. If Great or Juni do a snipe its even better.
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