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The great thing about this build is that it blind counters a lot of cheese and greedy plays like tech or FE.
If they are proxy rax (with or without scv all in) you hold it and come out ahead for an auto win.
If they go blue flame hellion, you can bust in and clean up, very easy.
A bunker contain won't work either, as you can put your hatchery in your main and it has almost no affect on the build.
2rax agression is held off and you can attack after that.
One build I noticed that could fare well is if T opens with reapers. You have to hold back a few roaches to protect your drones and hatchery, and defending is easy, but you will have about 2 less roaches at their base, AND they already have a techlab on the rax so they will just get out some marauders. Luckily reaper harass is practically a cheese and isn't seen that often.
Once T players get used to the FE roach build though they will start to just add tech labs on their rax after they scout it, get a bunker and get out marauders. They might have to cancel some tech, which is a plus for z, but they can hold it with a switch to marauders, and they don't have to worry too much about speed lings as you won't have enough larvae to get lots of roaches and lings.
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On March 18 2011 23:38 P00RKID wrote:
The great thing about this build is that it blind counters a lot of cheese and greedy plays like tech or FE.
If they are proxy rax (with or without scv all in) you hold it and come out ahead for an auto win.
If they go blue flame hellion, you can bust in and clean up, very easy.
A bunker contain won't work either, as you can put your hatchery in your main and it has almost no affect on the build.
2rax agression is held off and you can attack after that.
One build I noticed that could fare well is if T opens with reapers. You have to hold back a few roaches to protect your drones and hatchery, and defending is easy, but you will have about 2 less roaches at their base, AND they already have a techlab on the rax so they will just get out some marauders. Luckily reaper harass is practically a cheese and isn't seen that often.
Once T players get used to the FE roach build though they will start to just add tech labs on their rax after they scout it, get a bunker and get out marauders. They might have to cancel some tech, which is a plus for z, but they can hold it with a switch to marauders, and they don't have to worry too much about speed lings as you won't have enough larvae to get lots of roaches and lings.
Oh wow, I must be a fucking idiot to have not realized you could just hatch in your main.
Against 2-rax I think this is a good idea. They will think speedlings anyway, which you can transition to later with the macro hatch.
I've had no trouble dealing with bunker contains though. Marines just don't do enough damage against the hatch, and it only needs to survive while you produce 3-4 roaches with it (~1min).
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To everybody talking about banshee builds countering this, consider the fact that by the time these roaches are up the terran will have MAYBE 1 banshee, You can sack his base once the banshee gets to yours. If he goes for a base trade he loses and if he pulls back to kill the roaches then you just make 2 queens and drop an evo chamber.
This is a pretty nice opener, I went into the thread thinking "pfft no queen, gtfo" but it seems like it can definitely be viable. I'll try it later after the GSL thingy thats coming on :D
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This sounds odd but this build worked against a masters league player who knew it was coming and tried to proxy rax to stop it on xel naga caverns. He killed my natural(I got 2 larvae from it) and as he tried to move into my main 5 roaches popped (3main 2nat) which decimated 8 marines. I went to the proxy and when he lifts we are equal in resources lost(few more marines died). My nat is rebuilding during this time, I make a queen, and I immediately counter... a few min later after destroying his supply depots/bunkers I walk in and with some stop micro it's gg. Being smart with your overlords and using them for vision is key.
This build is very potent.
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Would you post some replays if you have them?
Shall do as soon as Im happy with the build, and have enough of them.
I dont think the build in the OP is optimal though. Its good, sure, but I think it can be better.
for 1, Im pretty sure that you can safely get lingspeed, with no effect on the roach timing, so there should be no reason not to do it, that way, they can scout the lingspeed, and it should allow an easier transition out of the build.
2, Im pretty sure that making some lings after the pool finishes isnt optional. You kinda need them to lay down your hatch, and to prevent scouting by later SCVs. I think you can also squeeze out a drone or 2 there.
3, there is too much gas, so drones should be pulled off gas at some point.
4, with managing to squeeze out 1-2 extra drones, and pulling guys off gas at some point, it should be possible to afford a queen, and then either drone up, or make lings, since you got lingspeed.
I dont really think that making the lings should be that needed, but its good to have lingspeed for later, to transition out of it.
Also think its bad to just make roaches nonstop. I think 8 roaches should be enough, though not sure on the exact number quite yet, perhaps just 6-7 would work, perhaps 10-11 are needed.
From what Ive seen, if you dont break in with the first 8 roaches, you wont break in with 10 more coming along. So at this point, it would be wise to just make the required number of roaches to break in, and if you do, you kill him/cripple him, and if you dont, well you have all drones on minerals, an expo, 1-2 queens coming along, and are pumping pure drones while being relatively safe.
Also wondering about a lair timing if I manage to find a somewhat decent way to transition out of it without being crippled, if it should be done straight away, so not pulling guys off gas, but just getting a lair directly, lingspeed ->8? roaches->lair, or lingspeed->8? roaches -> full minerals pumping drones for a while -> lair.
Most of the time, hes at around 20 SCVs when you hit him, and you at around 14-15. So only really 5 behind (plus mules -_-).
If the push fails due to a bunker plus enough stuff to hold your roaches, then its not a tech build, its a build with lots of marines and/or marauders. And you still have the roaches, and he cant really move out before stim. So even though youd be 5 drones behind, it would give you quite a while to drone up relatively safely behind your 8? roaches.
Dunno, seems like with a few tweaks here and there, the build might be able to transition if the rush fails, and thus not be all-in anymore. But havent found out how to do it yet, hope its possible though :D
I need more terrans to queue up on the ladder! 
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14 pool 15 hatch 14 gas, the another drone.
4 lings as soon as pool pops, then roach warren as soon as lings pop and drone/SCV is out.
Overlord, drone, overlord.
then 4 roaches as soon as the warren pops, and 3 more right after that.
then queen
then drones, overlords, and lingspeed at 100 gas, and pull guys off gas after 100.
then more drones and overlords.
The roaches start building at 4:25.
That gives you 2 bases, 1 queens, and 32 drones at the 7 minute mark. Lingspeed at 80/110.
Thats an economy thats pretty much equal to what a terran would have at that point in the game. (he would have like 27 workers and mule)
Thats the best transition Ive managed to find so far in a BO tester.
Are 7 roaches enough? Are they fast enough? what happens if he stays in and lets his SCV get killed by the lings instead of running it away? What happens if he blocks the hatch?
Still a few questions to be answered, but that build looks like it has the potential for major damage, just like the one from the OP, but also with the posibility of an economic transition.
And 14 pool 15 hatch 14 gas would look even more tempting for a terran to try and abuse, imo, with the later gas :D
What do you guys think?
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3/4 on north american masters.
lost once to 2port banshee, i scouted the double gas but went for the build anyway to see what would happen. it losses.
you're right, terrans dont actually scout anymore, just blind bunker at nat when they see 15 hatch.
[ive been doing 15h/14p/14g]
http://i.imgur.com/QZGEh.jpg
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after trying this out, I have to say that I was wrongly doubtful. You can get a queen AND the same amount of roaches at the same time, but the extra 30-40s you have to wait until the first roaches are at their base make a pretty big difference, because 2-3 roaches can actually delay the bunker a lot - and they have to pull scvs earlier. I think this might be a good way to open on close position.
About the banshees, gas stealing should help delay them quite a bit.
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Again i had little time to play at the canadian equivalent of Pc bang and i got 6 wins out of 6 with it.
That's like 13 straight wins against Terran.
I think that this could become a standard!
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On March 19 2011 02:35 morimacil wrote:
14 pool 15 hatch 14 gas, the another drone.
4 lings as soon as pool pops, then roach warren as soon as lings pop and drone/SCV is out.
Overlord, drone, overlord.
then 4 roaches as soon as the warren pops, and 3 more right after that.
then queen
then drones, overlords, and lingspeed at 100 gas, and pull guys off gas after 100.
then more drones and overlords.
The roaches start building at 4:25.
That gives you 2 bases, 1 queens, and 32 drones at the 7 minute mark. Lingspeed at 80/110.
Thats an economy thats pretty much equal to what a terran would have at that point in the game. (he would have like 27 workers and mule)
Thats the best transition Ive managed to find so far in a BO tester.
Are 7 roaches enough? Are they fast enough? what happens if he stays in and lets his SCV get killed by the lings instead of running it away? What happens if he blocks the hatch?
Still a few questions to be answered, but that build looks like it has the potential for major damage, just like the one from the OP, but also with the posibility of an economic transition.
And 14 pool 15 hatch 14 gas would look even more tempting for a terran to try and abuse, imo, with the later gas :D
What do you guys think?
I like where you're going with this, and perhaps it should be broadened up more. On its face, the idea of not getting a queen sounds so gimp, but the tradeoff is basically creep adjoining your base (which is for the queens you wouldn't have) for very solid standing army and an expansion that is immune to everything except maybe a perfect double proxy gate.
When you FE you always use those first injects on creep tumors because you can't support the larva no matter what your build is, and so in this light, getting a queen slightly later can really be of tremendous advantage, at least insofar as we're starting to see in this thread by posters.
I don't want to go so far as to say this "vein" of play could or should be a new standard, but it's just so adaptable, and it's nice to think that zerg at least has a real option of being able to flip a switch and go heavy econ or semi-all-in at the drop of a hat.
Also, regarding the ling speed. I always start ling speed while the warren is building, and sometimes before so that even if I don't have lings, the scouting worker will see my 2 building overlords + bubbling spawning pool and think "lings and ling speed" and proceeds to run away.
Being able to get 60 seconds of meta speed researched before having to cancel it is very nice, because you get that extra time to scout and make your decision.
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On March 17 2011 01:01 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 00:37 Grapefruit wrote:
Does this also work when you're going hatch first? I haven't tried it because I greatly dislike any hatch-first play just as a general rule. A hyper-aggressive opponent can auto-win if he does a 2-rax with a proxy 3rd. I'm sure if you could get away with hatching first, you could be fine though. July's "no queen" build was 15hatch 14gas 13 pool I believe.
Theeeeeeeeere.
I did a quick build test against computer in the morning and wanted to try against a real opponent (3200+ master).
Now i understand why he's going for hatch first.
It's because of the scouting scv which has all the time to block my expansion for a long time.
If you really want to play pool first, i think you should opt for a quick pool instead of putting it at 15 or even worse 16. Something like p11 after a gas trick.
You can always make a gas to trick ur opponent, and go for an expand.
I really don't understand why you're going for p15 though... It WAYYYYYY late and does nothing but troubles imo. 
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The current ZvZ meta seems to be shifting to a significant amount of Zerg doing a hatch-first variant of this build. I honestly don't see why you wouldn't hatch first in ZvT anyway unless you're in some ultra-close positions anyway, since it would actually encourage a player to 2rax, and it would make the build even HARDER to scout since it would look like such a standard opening for ZvT anyway.
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Well the reason not to hatch first here, is that you can get your lings up slightly earlier, thus shoo the scouting SCV away slightly earlier, and thus start your roach warren slightly earlier, and so your roaches arrive at his base slightly earlier, and so on.
And by slightly earlier, I mean 45 seconds earlier.
at 14 drones and 200 minerals, you start the pool, instead of moving out, making a hatch, making 2 more drones, getting another 200 minerals, and then only starting the pool.
And really, I dont think hatch first makes it much harder to scout. I mean, 14 pool 15 hatch? No way in hell that this looks unorthodox, or will alert the terran to any form of cheese
On to some replays:
 vs  Morimacil vs mindover ![[image loading]](http://www.topreplays.com/img/layout/download.png)
vs Morimacil vs swArm
vs Morimacil vs RAYDEN
vs Morimacil vs RegoMadcheck
These guys are like at 1500-2500k masters, so nothing top notch, but not bronze either.
The good news is, my build works, kind of. I was able to decently transition to a macrogame with a giant advantage in 2 of them, outright killed my opponent in the other 2.
The bad? news, is that Im not sure the transition is really needed
In those games where I did transition out of roaches, and made more drones, and got lingspeed, and outmacroed them....well those games felt like if Id just kept making roaches instead of taking the giant advantage, and making a queen plus some drones, I probably would have just outright won.
The other thing is, against a 2rax build, its really good, but it feels incredibly aqward to try and transition out of it. Usually, he will have a second CC, and 3 rax up, so if you just kill a bunch of marines and SCVs, and then go home... with double mules, plus the rest of his SCVs, he can regain a macro disadvantage quite fast. Plus, with no lingspeed, its kinda trivial for him to make some marauders with his marines, and push you back, so if you drone hard, especially on close positions, it feels super risky. But if you dont, then with double orbital, he can catch up and outecon you pretty fast, at least thats the feeling I get. So in most cases, against 2rax I think that the best solotuion is to just keep making roaches for a while, its very hard for him to keep up anyway, since hes got the same amount of workers as you, but has to keep repairing with a lot of them, and your roaches are more costeficient than his marines if the marines exit the bunkers.
4-0 today with the build, 6-1 altogether, and the loss was the first time I used the build, where I got greedy and made only 2 lings as the OP suggested, he came back to scout with his SCV, and scouted a roach popping, he had time to make a techlab, a marauder, and a bunker, since it was on scrap station.
So Id say the build is pretty damn good :D
Now I just need to play against a terran that can actually hold this off without knowing that its coming beforehand, and then once that happens a couple of times, Ill be able to tell if its actually beneficial to try and have a way to transition out of it, or if its better to just all-in.
Also, since the opening is so normal, you pretty much could do it reactively. 14 pool 15 hatch, and if hes 2raxing on close positions, roach warren and go kill him.
Its kind of hard to try and think about using the build reactively when ive had no losses with it that I wouldnt have been able to avoid though, since so far, I cant really think of anything I would scout that wouldnt make me wanna do this. Even seeing a rax with a techlab on it, its going to be blueflamed hellions 90% of the time, so no need to worry about marauders...
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Amazing! Can't wait to try it out. All to often we zerg plays reactionary, now the table has turned with this fantastic build. Cool stuff. Well done
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Ok, so what does counter your build?
I was thinking maybe it's worth saving money until you do not have SCV in your base. Delaying roach warren does not seem to be bad idea because you are not getting all of roaches at the same time anyways.
Btw it looks like completely all in, I mean you have like 13-14 drones when doing this rush..
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On March 20 2011 21:56 Alpina wrote:
Ok, so what does counter your build?
I was thinking maybe it's worth saving money until you do not have SCV in your base. Delaying roach warren does not seem to be bad idea because you are not getting all of roaches at the same time anyways.
Btw it looks like completely all in, I mean you have like 13-14 drones when doing this rush..
Check my post slightly above, but still on page 5 for a build based on the same idea, but that delays the roach warren until the lings pop to chase the SCV out of your base, and for the planned followthrough that makes it not all-in, or my post witht the replays to see me playing it, and transitioning out of it.
As for what exactly counters it... thats still out there
Seriously, so far, my opponents just havent been able to counter it.
I can tell you what it beats though. 2rax, hellions, 1 port banshees, any type of fast expand.
I suspect that the counters to it would be opening up with a reaper, or going for some sort of 3 rax stim timing. Both of which are pretty damn uncommon.
2 port banshee MIGHT be able to beat this too, but not sure. The jury is still out there on that one. It crushes any suboptimal 2 port banshee build though.
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On March 20 2011 21:56 Alpina wrote:
Ok, so what does counter your build?
I was thinking maybe it's worth saving money until you do not have SCV in your base. Delaying roach warren does not seem to be bad idea because you are not getting all of roaches at the same time anyways.
Btw it looks like completely all in, I mean you have like 13-14 drones when doing this rush..
It's not even close to being all-in..... There's never a point where you can't instantly abandon and drone up on 2 bases.
The only thing I've found that "beats" my build honestly is the number of really shitty SEA players I've been playing against. The guys that will 2-rax you anyway even when they scout pool first, because they are too noob to know you will always lose in that exchange.
but since they are bad anyway I try to all-in them. About 1/3 of the time they manage to get bunkers up and hold, and then it goes into a normal game.
There's not really any counter at all, because it's a very economical opener that you can be extremely flexible with.
The only thing I can think of that could be devastating is some hyper aggressive double 10rax SCV all-in or something equally goofy, but no one good is going to do anything like that, especially when there's no way to know what you're doing.
The best way to deal with that playstyle is a) not 2-rax (or if you do, don't aggress), or b) be content on double OC'ing one-base for the short term. Make banshees slowly while keeping strong defense (double bunker), and just play standard.
This build doesn't beat a player who plays conservatively. It beats a player who thinks he can get away being greedy or being very aggressive vs whatever zerg is doing (blue flame Hellion vs FE, 2-rax vs a late pool/FE, 2-port banshee, tank drop, etc etc.)
The whole point IMO, is to really show the power of NOT getting a queen super early, and what advantages and disadvantages that entails. If you FE, not getting a queen doesn't hurt you AS LONG AS YOU GO ROACHES for a short while. And roach is a pretty safe unit.
Even if you did something similar to this build, got ling speed, and only made a handful of roaches, you'd be basically immune to every form of aggression that terran can throw at you in the opening minutes of the game, and that is a strong reason to consider using this (or some variation) as a default opener.
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On March 20 2011 21:56 Alpina wrote:
Btw it looks like completely all in, I mean you have like 13-14 drones when doing this rush..
i must be doing it wrong then, because i have no problem squeezing in drones when 15 hatching.
ive also found that just sitting in the natural of someone who held me off will delay the terran long enough for me to pull ahead in workers and bases. im quite comfortable taking a third if i cant kill my opponent.
its pretty common to roll up the ramp and be greeted with a techlab researching stim and sniping it will result in minutes of tank repositioning required for terran to clear you out of his natural.
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Michael, I love you for coming up with the idea for this build, but lets not get overboard here.
It IS pretty close to an all-in. Yes, you can stop making roaches, and start droning, but you can also do that with a 6 pool, and thats still pretty all-in.
Its not a "very economical opener that you can be extremely flexible with". Classic speedling expand would fit that description. This build doesnt.
If anything, its a very strong agressive build, that has the option of falling back and catching back up in economy pretty fast and pretty safely should the attack fail.
But since there is no way for you to be ahead in economy before the 7 minute mark, calling it "very economical" would just be wrong.
Its really good as is.
No need to try and make it look better than it is with wrong statements
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EPT
