Racial Slurs in QuanticDestiny's Stream - Page 44

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zerglingrodeo

United States910 Posts

May 01 2012 17:04 GMT

#861

On May 02 2012 01:58 Destiny wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 02 2012 01:52 zerglingrodeo wrote:

On May 02 2012 01:43 Destiny wrote:

On May 02 2012 01:11 Klondikebar wrote:

On May 02 2012 01:07 Destiny wrote:
Sigh, I promised myself I wouldn't dive into this thread, but I can't resist...

On May 02 2012 00:44 SherlockTV wrote:So just because you are a player means you can act like an immature teenager, ignorant to other people's feelings and devoid of any human empathy? Destiny doesn't have empathy because if he knew what the words meant to some people, he would stop using them. His opinions that either its "stupid" or "illogical" to have such negative feelings attached to racial words just means that he simply does not understand individuality.

"Ignorant to other people's feelings"? Maybe if I spammed him with messages after the game, or added him and told my stream to harass and stalk him. Maybe if I messaged him on Skype or sent him e-mails. Calling someone a nigger/faggot/gook/cheese/piece of shit/queer/mother fucker/step-mother fucker etc...at the end of a game before leaving? You honestly think that people who rage at the end of games lack empathy? You should be a psychiatrist!

If I knew what WHAT words meant to WHAT people? Lots of people find different words offensive. List of possible offensive words -

faggot - offensive to the gay community
nigger - offensive to the black community
gook - offensive to asians(?)
spic - offensive to hispanics
retarded - offensive to mentally challenged
rape - offensive to rape victims
snipe - offensive to war veterans
nuke - offensive to descendants of hiroshima survivors
grammar nazi - offensive to descendants of concentration camp survivors
murdered - offensive to people who've experienced death in family
cancer on the community - offensive to people who've suffered from cancer

Now, here's the fun part. Without sounding like a bigot, I want you to tell me which words I can and cannot say, and why certain groups of people are special enough to have certain words not said for them, and the others are unworthy of said "protected status". Good luck!

I love this at the end..."His opinions that either its "stupid" or "illogical" to have such negative feelings attached to racial words just means that he simply does not understand individuality."

Because nothing says individuality like taking offense to a simple word spoken out of context that at one point in time was used to insult a collective group of individuals.

On May 02 2012 00:44 SherlockTV wrote:Destiny holds that his opinions are right and really does not have any room to be wrong because of how "logical" and "good with people" he is.

Eh, I could be humble here, but nah, fuck that. I'm pretty damned good with people. Ask anyone who sees me at any MLG, I'll stop and sign anything or take a picture with anyone, regardless of the length of the line. People that you guys hold to much higher "friendly" standards, though, such as Day9, Huk, Nony, and others? They SPLIT the second they think a crowd is gathering and they do their best to stay away from any places where they could be mobbed.

So how do you judge whether someone is "good with people"? Is it based on the facade they put up when they know they're under the public eye? Or is it based on how they actually interact with other people?

On May 02 2012 00:44 SherlockTV wrote:Clearly any human being would understand that just because you feel like they are just words, doesn't mean they aren't hundreds of years of history for person.

Ah, my bad. I was unaware of the several hundred year old stream viewers I have. I'll try to cater to that audience more.

Seriously, though? You want me to cater to an audience of people that define themselves based on some insulting words that someone said about their ancestors hundreds of years ago? If we played that game, there are tons of other words we should cut out of our dictionary (for just black people, I can think of the word "boy", "negro", and "colored", and I'm sure there are many more for many other groups of people).

On May 02 2012 00:44 SherlockTV wrote:I really hope this man (yes, sadly he is a man, not a child, or we could forgive his foolishness without a second thought) experiences some of the hardship that others have experienced in the past. Maybe it will come in the form of income inequality or maybe in the form of his child being bullied at school. Maybe then he will learn his lesson that he should respect other cultures and other people if he wants to be respected himself: that respect is earned and not a right.

Ah, now here, I'm going to have to call you a brainless fucking piece of shit. I can't even believe you would have the audacity to fucking call me out on something like that. You have absolutely no fucking idea what I have or haven't experienced in my past. A lot of the immature and childish bullshit that you call "hardship" (OH NO SOMEONE SAID NIGGER, OH GOD HE SAID FAGGOT, OH NO HE MADE FUN OF MY PANTS) PALES in comparison to a lot of the shit I've had to deal with in my life. Maybe the difference in perspective is one of the reasons why I'm able to look past absolutely pointless bullshit like this and someone like you turns it into the focal point of a huge discussion. You want my child to get bullied in high school? Seriously, I would dedicate all 130 lbs of my tiny frame into the beating the shit out of you if I ever saw you in person wishing that on my son. If you think the only way to learn respect about someone else is to suffer, then you're sadly misguided, and incredibly stupid.

On May 02 2012 00:44 SherlockTV wrote:That's my two cents. I don't watch his stream because it provides him income to continue what he's doing.

Honestly, this should have been the only thing you wrote in your post. I agree 100% with this. If you don't like the things I say or the way I act, don't watch my stream. Less people watching me = less money for me, meaning I either A) have to change the way I behave, or B) fade away from the public eye.

On May 02 2012 00:44 SherlockTV wrote:I think any community that is a community at all would see his stream has a negative impact on it and would seek to prevent it by de-listing his stream.

Negative impact on the community? I have the most viewer hours of any current SC2 streamer. You don't think that counts for anything?

On May 02 2012 00:44 SherlockTV wrote:Clearly he does not paint an accurate picture of our community of gamers and e-sports.

Ah, that's why so many people watch me. I understand now.

On May 02 2012 00:44 SherlockTV wrote:Why would we want to be associated with such a bigoted person with such ignorance that encompasses many of the stereotypes that non-gamers have against us. That we are trash-talking immature button mashers that rage and argue like children.

ITT: someone wishing that someone else's child gets bullied in high school, then calling that person ignorant because he uses bad words on the internet.

On May 02 2012 00:44 SherlockTV wrote:Seriously people, stop watching his shit. Its not entertaining and its not funny and its not even educational. Its a waste of time and its very negative just to listen to his logic and world views.

Educational...I lol'd.

Here's a novel idea Destiny...don't say any of them! Is your vocabulary so small that that really cripples your ability to communicate? Or even communicate cleverly?

Some groups get that protected status because of institutionalized marginalization and discrimination. White people don't get that because they've never been marginalized.

Although to be honest I have no delusions that we're going to be able to convince you in this thread. However, we can convince Quantic to keep you in line.

You didn't respond to anything I said.

Do you think you sound intelligent because you're requesting that I arbitrarily edit out certain words from my vocabulary because some groups of people may find those words offensive?

My vocabulary is larger than most. What does that have to do with anything? Are you trying to make the claim that everyone that swears is stupid, or at least has a small vocabulary?

I think I communicate cleverly plenty enough. I'm a relatively creative person, whether I'm making an analogy or insulting someone or talking dirty to your mother over the phone. I can get across most messages I have pretty clearly.

Some groups get that protected status because of institutionalized marginalization and discrimination. White people don't get that because they've never been marginalized.

Ah. So white people are never A) poor, B) bullied, C) disabled, or otherwise disadvantaged? You think every single white person in the world lives a perfect life?

Sorry, bro, but that's pretty fucking racist. And bigoted.

Although to be honest I have no delusions that we're going to be able to convince you in this thread. However, we can convince Quantic to keep you in line.

I would leave my time and abandon any sponsorships before turning myself into a politically correct zombie who spews meaningless bullshit because people are too fucking weak to handle a few swear words.

There is a difference between being a 'politically correct zombie' and not condoning public use of racial slurs. The move to degrade 'political correctness' has been a go-to for right-wing nutjobs for a long time, and it does not help in the current debate.

What is at issue is whether it is okay for public figures to use racial slurs. Forget whether it 'offends' people for a moment, and consider that publicly endorsing this language contributes to a culture of marginalization of racial minorities. If this is the case (which some believe), then it would be better to not endorse use of this language.

Why wouldn't I condone public use of racial slurs? It has abso-fucking-lutely nothing to do with racism.

People can use racial slurs without being racist.

People can be racist without using racial slurs.

Why the fuck would I care how someone expresses them self? That's idiotic.

Oh yeah, you got me. I'm one of those atheist, pro-drug legalization, pro-prostitution legalization, pro-homosexual marriage right-wing nutjobs!

The disgusting thing about "political correctness" is that it doesn't seek to address any of the underlying problems that are only hinted at by certain words. People act like getting rid of certain words will get rid of the nasty thoughts/emotions/history that brought certain words into being. People act like if they could get everyone in their community to stop saying "nigger", all of the bad racism/hate towards a certain group of people would suddenly vanish. This is disingenuous and ignorant thinking that only serves to endanger freedom of expression, while offering absolutely no positive effects whatsoever.

Since when has publicly endorsing certain words served to further racism? Have you seen the rap scene lately? Hollywood? Come on, man.

I am sorry that I was unclear, I was not trying to suggest that you were a right-wing nutjob. I do not know nearly enough about you to make an assertion like that. I was merely pointing out the fact that trying to paint the opposition as 'politically correct zombies' was unhelpful.

We disagree on a few points. First, you say that "[P]ublic use of racial slurs [...] has abso-fucking-lutely nothing to do with racism." I disagree. I think that publicly using or endorsing this language contributes to a culture of racism. While the speaker may harbor no ill-will to any minority group, if the use of this language is tolerated it can have wide-ranging negative cultural impacts. The intent of the speaker does not affect that in the least. I am not asserting that YOU are a racist. Once again, I do not know nearly enough about you.

The next point on which we disagree is that you seem to hold that people, like me, who object to public use of racial slurs think that eliminating their use will solve all problems. I do not believe that at all. These are deep problems, and they require large-scale, difficult solutions (primarily in terms of economic policy). However, simply because it will not solve ALL problems does not mean that we should not attend to something that will help our culture. When people stand up and say that they do not accept racist/homophobic/misogynistic language (all of which you use publicly), even if they are expressing this in a small thread on the internet or to a Starcraft team manager, a small good is done.

Mesha

Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts

May 01 2012 17:04 GMT

#862

Destiny is pretty inteligent person, no way he could be part of racist mindset. But being smart doesn't make you decent person. That being said, i think he is maybe too smart and also walking the thin line of becoming a complete psycho. That emotionless face when i take a look at his stream scares me. So eloquent, fluent and allknowing, some scary shit if you ask me. Reminds me of Hitler a little. Also, he has a hard time coping with loses. I watched his stream few times and it ain't pretty when he loses. ^_^

DeepElemBlues

United States5079 Posts

May 01 2012 17:04 GMT

#863

On May 02 2012 02:00 Destiny wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'm going to stop responding to thoughtless post like this until you respond to my questions earlier.

Tell me which words a person should/shouldn't be allowed to say, and then tell me why some groups of people are protected while others aren't.

Your pseudo-intellectual stance and arbitrary standards of argument that coincidentally of course benefit your position don't help you.

aristarchus

United States652 Posts

May 01 2012 17:04 GMT

#864

On May 02 2012 01:52 iNcontroL wrote:
mailing sponsors instead of the team is so completely fucked up and horrible.

mail the SHIT out of quantic. If they don't do anything or say anything for a few weeks.. make threads, tweet, write more letters to quantic.. but by no means at all should you mail sponsors with things like that.

Razer sponsors a lot more than just destiny or even quantic.. by one man's error you are potentially making it worse for a LOT of people.

Even if you disagree with what I said you could probably agree that quantic deserves a chance to respond before you start emailing sponsors.

Debating whether we should be emailing sponsors is sort of moot at this point. You're right - it's dumb (and I say this as someone who really thinks we should have no tolerance for this stuff). But it's going to happen. In society at large, anyone who sponsors someone who spouts racial slurs constantly gets angry email. The only way to avoid this is to keep the community so small and marginal as to have a whole different social norm than the rest of society, and I don't think any of us want that.

So sponsors will get emailed. Knowing this, we should be talking about as a community not how to make sure that racial slurs don't lead to sponsor emails, but how to stop the racial slurs.

And really, it's sort of stupid to say "give Quantic a chance to respond". With Orb, it was at least conceivable that EG didn't know about the fact that he still said stuff like this. Destiny is famous for it. Quantic knows perfectly well he says this stuff, and they've known it for months. It's not like this should take them by surprise or they had no chance to act first.

-KarakStarcraft-

United States258 Posts

May 01 2012 17:04 GMT

#865

On May 02 2012 02:00 Destiny wrote:

Show nested quote +

I responded to this above. Please feel free to reply to my response. I have to go IRL now, but will check back later.

On May 02 2012 01:12 Karak wrote:

You seem to be debating the creation and continued existence of societal norms, why we accept some and why others are rejected. That is a reasonable cause and an interesting academic discussion, however in the eyes of contemporary consumers and media, there are certain words which plainly cross the line. There are others that are in a gray area. And there are fringe words that only a few select groups find incredibly offensive.

I too resent the majority of "PC language" culture, but I can easily accept that a certain group of extreme racial slurs are plainly unacceptable and draw a line there before debating the rest of the gray area. Racial slurs used for blacks or Asians clearly cross that line. There's really no debate there. The rest of the gray areas are debated every day in political discourse.

Then there's the second point of EVEN IF you disagree with people being offended by these terms, the fact remains that a vast majority of the mainstream public WILL BE offended by these terms. If the true end goal of this thread/forum is the furtherance of "Esports," then this is a consideration which must be paramount from a financial perspective of teams and sponsors. Whether or not you agree with that reality is a different issue, but it is very much a reality. If this weren't a fledgling industry with relatively little financial support (meaning esports as a spectator sport), you might have wiggle room to "fight the good fight" (from your own perspective). However, I do not think there is much give for that here.

PeZuY

935 Posts

May 01 2012 17:04 GMT

#866

If you have an issue about destiny, DEAL WITH QUANTIC DIRECTLY NOT SPONSORS. Fucking trash people messing with other people when it is only one person who has caused such drama, which I find very funny overall and people are overreacting about it, but in any case go directly to quantic.

UmiNotsuki

United States633 Posts

May 01 2012 17:04 GMT

#867

In the screenshot you provide, you appear to gg him, in a language that is likely not your own (last I checked, Korean is not the national language of Canada,) and while he is clearly upset. When you BM someone like that, they're gonna be mad, and since you chose to for some reason type in Korean, he was insulting you based on that.

If you don't think he's a true racist, why does this really matter? Because it sheds a negative light on the community? That implies that the community is going to be affected by this. Do you really think some random viewer is gonna see a racial slur come out of one, totally non-racist player, and give up on the StarCraft community as a whole?

We are not represented by Destiny. We are represented by ourselves. And that you think this is a big issue represents you quite poorly.

MethodSC

United States928 Posts

May 01 2012 17:04 GMT

#868

Destiny, if you want to continue to act like a 20 something year old man child then go on and do it, no one should be able to stop you and you shouldn't care. You shouldn't have to defend yourself for acting the way you want to act and saying whatever you want to say. If your team wants to accept how you are, then that's their right as well. Do whatever you want to do, you are the one that has to deal with the consequences after all.

NoGasfOu

United States1117 Posts

May 01 2012 17:04 GMT

#869

It's Destiny. That's what he lives off of. He's got one of those "personality" that Quantic was looking for.

Siphyo

Netherlands121 Posts

May 01 2012 17:05 GMT

#870

On May 02 2012 01:50 Diizzy wrote:
cant he just go to lol where his behavior would be accepted. hes not even that good.

Can't the people who are so desperately trying to pretend the SC2 community is so super awesome and not part of the fucking internet in any way go elsewhere instead? Let people be themselves no matter how much you disagree with their behavior. Why do all SC2 players have to pretend to be gay with each other to not upset people?

None of Destiny's behavior hurts any team, sponsor or 'esports'. All the upset kids that spam the shit out of sponsors however, do. His playing skill isn't even relevant here so I am not sure why that is pretty much your only argument as to why he doesn't belong.

Bagration

United States18282 Posts

May 01 2012 17:05 GMT

#871

On May 02 2012 01:59 Zambrah wrote:
Well, I emailed Razer.

But to try and represent the people who don't share the viewpoint that Destiny needs to be flayed and burned at the stake.

Good job. When Razer pulls or reduces its sponsorship of all SC2, and teams like Liquid have to cut player salaries and stop sending players to tournaments because they don't have the funding anymore, you can thank yourself and others like you. So easily outraged, and so eager to take action without thinking, just so you can feel important and self-righteous.

Destiny

United States280 Posts

May 01 2012 17:05 GMT

#872

On May 02 2012 01:58 SherlockTV wrote:

Show nested quote +

On May 02 2012 01:52 Destiny wrote:

On May 02 2012 01:50 SherlockTV wrote:

On May 02 2012 01:13 Mallidon wrote:

On May 02 2012 01:09 SherlockTV wrote:

Yup, got mine in.

Why not just e-mail Quantic? Well because I am certain they are aware of his behaviour. They are, after-all, his employers. If they could not see this coming then they are just as ignorant.

You realise this hurts EVERY SC2 team?

Sponsors will look at that and be like 'Oh screw SC2, its a minefield'.

Well done...

Edit - Let me just clarify further. Its like someone phoning up a multi national CEO to complain that a cleaner in one of their minor offices was rude to them. The CEO gets pissed and speaks to someone lower down the line to find out what is happening, and everyone up the chain of command looks like an idiot because they knew nothing or very little about it until it goes too far.

People usually complain about my analogies, but in this case, I reckon its similar. If you want to complain about the cleaner, go to the manager of that office or the cleaning supervisor first. If you want to complain about Destiny, go to his team management first.

As discussed in our PMs, teams should screen their players better. Quantic knew who Destiny was and his reputation. If Destiny's attitude fits in Quantic's philosophy and Quantic is willing to take the risks that come with that, its Quantic's fault for not having the foresight to acknowledge this. Also, if Quantic's team members did not have the foresight to know that they would now be associated with such a person that would risk the entire team's sponsorship, Quantic as a whole should be punished. Therefore, e-mailing Razer is appropriate to remove sponsorship from a team that made a mistake in hiring such a person in the first place.

Teams need to take responsibility for the players they take on. Razer as an organization needs to take responsibility for the teams they sponsor. Razer can't be responsible for overseeing every single player's actions, this is the community's job. A team, like Quantic, can help the community by not hiring people like Destiny.

If Destiny doesn't make money doing what he does, its a very large incentive for him to either change or move onto something that is not the SC2 community that we are all so passionate about.

E-mail sponsors and stop sponsoring teams that put our community in danger. Teams: stop hiring people that put your organization at risk. Your own staff don't deserve that kind of risk either.

>yfw Quantic is disbanded and I continue to make all the money I do via ad revenue on my stream/ad revenue from youtube/lessons/stream subscriptions while everyone else on Quantic who is salaried at damn good pay has to go searching elsewhere.

Sorry then, my bad. Guess we should e-mail own3d.tv. Perhaps even every advertisement that pops up on your stream, we should e-mail them and tell them not to put their ads on your stream because people will boycott based on the message you are sending.

Sounds like a great idea. It worked with Rush Limbaugh, right?

farvacola

United States18825 Posts

May 01 2012 17:05 GMT

#873

On May 02 2012 02:01 ScienceRob wrote:
@ Destiny:

Show nested quote +

I recommend a book: The rise and fall of the third Reich. The public endorsment of racial slurs has in fact caused the deaths of many millions(beyond the Nazi), in fact it is hard to not be aware of it.

This just in, a member of the Sc2 community has pinpointed the singular cause of the Holocaust, and it was racial slurs. More at 11.

Bear4188

United States1797 Posts

May 01 2012 17:05 GMT

#874

On May 02 2012 02:02 Truenappa wrote:
The OP made the thread yesterday. You think that's enough time for anyone and step up and do something yet?

I bet there will be some sort of response from Quantic by the end of the week.

This thread is 4 hours old.

Nobody should be sending crap to a sponsor of half the teams in Starcraft without giving Quantic a chance to respond officially. If they officially condone it and people are stil upset then they can send all the crap they want but doing so before doesn't make it any more likely that a satisfactory end will be met and makes it more likely that a bad one (some effecting SaSe or NaNiWa or any of the dozens of players Razer sponsors) will.

stormchaser

Canada1009 Posts

May 01 2012 17:05 GMT

#875

I'm a Gook and I'm proud of it.

iNcontroL

USA29055 Posts

May 01 2012 17:05 GMT

#876

On May 02 2012 02:03 duracell wrote:

Show nested quote +

I agree with this.

Incontrol,

You should know better as a public figure than to pull the "you're hurting esports" card. If you think it will actually happen, then maybe you should use your considerable influence to address the matter whether you agree or not for continued success of esports.

The whole spiel about potentially hurting so many others, so don't complain, is incredibly trite. Desinty, Quantic, even anyone involved in the esports community that stands to get hurt, should be held accountable once this becomes a public issue.

Nobody is saying don't complain.. people are saying don't jump to the top of the pyramid to the MOST uninformed people (sponsors) who have the MOST to lose when it comes to situations like this so they react the MOST drastically. It's like calling in the national guard because someone stole your car. Yeah it's horrible and bad but we don't need AR armed soldiers running after the guy. Give the police a chance..

TheWorldToCome

United States452 Posts

May 01 2012 17:06 GMT

#877

nvm.

Destiny

United States280 Posts

May 01 2012 17:06 GMT

#878

On May 02 2012 01:58 halfies wrote:And I know, some people say that 'its just his stream', and 'he just wants to be himself', two which i have 2 responses; firstly, IF he is really racist, that's awful, and I hope he dies painfully.

i lol'd

SC2Phoenix

Canada2814 Posts

May 01 2012 17:07 GMT

#879

"Oh no, someone said something disrespectful over the internet again! Lets all run to Razer and email them about it"
God this community is fucking stupid at times. There isn't even a point in making a logical post about the issue with the amount of people who come here just to flame destiny.

Klondikebar

United States2227 Posts

May 01 2012 17:07 GMT

#880

On May 02 2012 02:03 iNcontroL wrote:

Show nested quote +

I know everyone has the ability to post on TL so I guess I shouldn't be responding but it's important that other people know I guess: Yes, emailing EG's sponsors with the orb situation DID have a negative effect.

EG is fortunate enough to have amazing fans who on a regular basis email our sponsors and tell em they love em and appreciate what they do for eSports. That was needed because of the people that emailed saying EG sponsors/supports a racist. Sponsors don't read every thread, they don't check forums, they don't watch every tweet.. when they get an email there is a dangerous possibility that is the ONLY message from that situation they are getting. Emails aren't filtered or edited for fairness they are 90% the emotional response from someone (when the situation is like an orb/destiny) and it's the first draft. Those emails can cause real damage in a industry (SC2) that isn't shitting gold.. we are fighting for survival.

I understand you hear all the time: email sponsors! Tell em you love em! and I could understand the argument "well they need to hear the good with the bad." But that is dangerous for us. Destiny doesn't represent all of Quantic nor does he represent all of the community but when you email the sponsors about a relatively small issue you can potentially cause gargantuan ripples in a place where we can't afford said ripples.

Just please trust me on this.. email the shit out of quantic. Tweet the shit out of them. Post on TL about how upset you are.. but do NOT email sponsors threatening them with things and telling them one side of a small story.

When does it become appropriate to email sponsors? This is a legitimate question. Destiny's behavior is nothing new and it's been tolerated by Quantic for quite some time. Hell, they picked him up knowing full well how he behaved (unlike EG and Orb).

When do we as fans finally get to say "no more forum posts, I'm talking with my dollar?"

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