EPTTL Mafia XXXIX - Page 43
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rredtooth
5459 Posts
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rredtooth
5459 Posts
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DropBear
Australia4351 Posts
Let's recap it. 1: Don't lurk. 2: Don't spam. 3: Never give up. On May 04 2011 16:27 redtooth wrote: Rule 3: Never Give Up This is directed at townies. If you're scum, by all means feel free to give up and get modkilled or bussed. However, as mentioned above, it is likely that townies will lose interest in the game much faster than scum will. There are two provisions to this rule: don't stop participating and don't stop defending. Sometimes your ideas are overlooked or cast aside simply due to the number of strategies or targets being promoted. That doesn’t mean you should stop participating. The town may be tunneling, they may be overlooking something, you may see a scumtell nobody else believes, etc. Each members’ participation is vital to a successful town operation. 4: Kill scum 5: Have fun. Yet we are not capable of following it? I'd say everyone is, in general, following it pretty well so far. On May 07 2011 01:12 redtooth wrote: + Show Spoiler + OK EVERYBODY STOP AND LISTEN Collectively as a group, town is playing the worst mafia I have ever seen. I think there are literally >20 suspects being listed as being scum with only around half that amount actually being actively pursued. People observing the game from the outside are laughing their asses off at the ridiculous level of fingerpointing going on right now and frankly it's embarrassing. There is so much criticism and scrutiny on my help-the-town longpost. Honestly I wouldn't have cared as much if you guys knew all of the advice listed there. But seriously none of you guys have shown that you're capable of following it so far. Do you want to know why I posted it in the first place? Because Chaoser was literally the only person who realized my first vote on Irish was a RVS vote and I immediately lost all hope in having a smart town. It's amazing that some of you are able to move forward with that smug "I-know-you-did-it" attitude after being so blatantly wrong about Kurumi. I think Jackal (very slightly), aidnai (late addition), and I are the only ones on the record arguing against his lynch. Not to mention it's hilarious how so many of you were guaranteeing Chaoser's town alignment and being sheeped by him, only now to turn around and accuse him of being scummy just because. Stop for a second and actually think about what you are doing. If all you have is "there is a possibility _____ is mafia" then stay quiet and pursue evidence indirectly. I don't want to hear your quotewalls and orgies of bad evidence. All it does it make town lose focus on the real suspects. If you do raise an argument against one person, you will be held accountable for the results of either the lynch or the press. Learn how to distinguish a scumtell from a nulltell. Suspicious =/= Scummy. Listen to yourselves talk before you blurt something out. I am connected to Chaoser? My kick-the-hive post was the one that made him fall from Town God status that would have easy-carried him to victory if he was scum. You figured out the entire opposing scumteam? Not a chance, players much better than me and you wouldn't have been able to confidently find even 2 with the level of focus the town has right now. Every post _____ made is scummy? Well everybody looks scummy when you haven't even bothered to objectively consider if he is town at all. Your ideas aren't clever. Your ideas aren't smart. Your ideas aren't correct. From now on, I will show no more lenience. If you are incompetent and provide a terrible accusation backed by flawed reasoning, I will move forward with the assumption that you are scum trying to derail the thread. If your terrible accusation is proven wrong by the night kills or otherwise, you will be held accountable. The people who are not lurking are posting analysis, which is point 1. Now that they are posting analysis, this is bad. You also now are asking people to give up on their analysis, yet never give up was point 3. Plus, isn't hunting scum point 4? Find scum, prosecute scum, lynch scum, beat scum? People have been posting analysis since the lynch of Kurumi. People are already being held accountable for their posts against him. It looks very much to me as though you are discouraging looking at who voted to lynch him. Sure not everyone on it was mafia and knew for sure that he was town but there are absolutely guaranteed at least 2 mafia on the list of those who voted for him, most likely more considering how easily he won the vote. Why is pointing out people you believe to be suspicious bad exactly? Who are these real suspects you speak of? Finally, could you explain to me why suspicious =/= scummy? I don't understand. All this sounds like to me is "if you don't listen to redtooth, you are a retard, mafia or both". You're trying to lead the town away from finding information. I'm going to pretend for a moment that I think you are town and are trying to help, which I don't. Provide me with some town guidance. On May 07 2011 01:32 redtooth wrote: + Show Spoiler + EBWODP: Node please tell us exactly what time (TL Time or EST) that the Night officially ends. We are starting all over again. The previous pages can be used as evidence but all cases must be set forth again with new, strict standards in mind. Abide by the following:
I will not deny that I am taking draconian steps in reorganizing town. However, unless you really think what I am proposing is anti-town, shut up and deal with it. By the way, this applies to my argument against Chaoser as well. If I make an official argument and it's bad or doesn't adhere to these rules, call me out. 1. What is the point of a formalised declaration about confidence in your own accuracy? Isn't being confident in your own accuracy what EVERYONE has been doing so far? What purpose does it serve? Other than create filler in your posts? 2. Why limit the number of posts you look at? If I see something dodgy in more than 4 posts, why should I leave out the extra ones? 3. Why must cosponsoring happen? Why must we drop arguments of absolutely nothing is done to allay suspicions? Remember your point number 3! 4. Why must we completely ignore every argument we've made so far? Do we pull new evidence out of thin air? The arguments made in the thread become useful later. As you have stated so boldly, people are held accountable if their accusations are proven wrong. | ||
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
Some of those points leave no wiggle room. "No more than 4 quotes"? "All new arguments can't be linked to old arguments"? Mistakes on one part of the assessment of a player doesn't mean the rest of it isn't true. Let's instead view these as "Guidelines" and not "Hard Rule" a la Pirates of the Caribbean. To restrict people so much is damaging, especially considering the subjective nature of arguments and getting people to agree with them. That being said, can you give your thoughts on who you think is scum? You haven't been really doing that at all. Town's been doing fine so far. It's not like making a mistake day 1 mean town is fucked. We have a good atmosphere and people are taking stances and making arguments. That's better than almost all the town's I've been in where day 1 was spent discussing whether we should lynch inactives or not and then lynching an inactive player. This is definitely NOT the worst game you've ever played in. Hyperbolic statements don't help. I ain't going to write "I, chaoser, blah blah blah". I will however, proposition this: Amber[Light] has been playing lurker-ish I'll come back to the Irish issue once he's posted and responded to our questions to him. Anyway onto Amber. Amber is a vet player, and he generally posts a lot. Not just posts a lot, he also usually very active in calling people out and making FoS's on people he thinks is scummy. Except this game he hasn't. Most of his posts have been either asking or answer questions; in fact, out of his 5 total (game relevant) posts in this thread, he's pretty much only asked and answered questions in 3 of them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216644¤tpage=22#426 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216644¤tpage=22#427 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216644¤tpage=22#439 In the two posts where he actually tries to take a stance on someone (In this case Kurumi), he pretty much says the reason he's voting for kurumi is because he wants information. He never outright says that he's suspicous of kurumi, just that: Chaoser has really been digging deep into Kurumi and hasn't been letting up against other players. I almost want to see Kurumi flip to see how much we can trust his analysis. and before, he questions where the Kurumi flip will lead: Back to you Airblade... My question is do you think creating a chaoser vs/with kurumi vision is going to get us somewhere? Clearly he doesn't really support the Kurumi lynch but when questioned on if he actually believes the vote though, he responds to redtooth with: He's using a lot of diversion tactics and getting really defensive to the point where he was analyzing players that were either targeting him or easy pins for inactivity. It seems like it's more pseudo-analysis than actual content. You know, posting just to post. Which seems like a throw-away reason. For that, I ask that Amber start to post more. His excuse that he's at work and so he can't do much is nulled by the fact that he generally posts a lot anyway as can be seen in insane 1, and insane 2. He hasn't contributed much to the discussion even though he's clearly caught up to speed and has been reading the thread. This same sentiment is also applied to GGQ. He gives the advice to DropBear: There was no need for a PbP analysis here, you just needed to tell Lyter to post more and explain his vote You need to better explain your reasoning for voting Kurumi (Pretty much that he was acting like serejai aka trolling and so he's probably scum) and why you're not posting as much | ||
Mig
United States4714 Posts
I want you to look at this from my viewpoint for a second. On one hand I see kurumi who is obviously spamming and trolling with 90% of his posts. Who then comes up this ridiculous explanation that all his posting was a plan (I still think this was a lie, I think he just posted terribly at the start and then made up something to try and save himself). Then on the other side the absolute only argument defending him is you saying hes so bad he can't be mafia. Which in my limited experience isn't always going to be the case. Along with this after you defended irish/kurumi you don't make any argument for who people should lynch. You say killer is somewhat scummy but make no argument for him. You say chaoser is the most scummy but then claim you don't have time to make a case to get him lynched. So really with the information that I have who do you expect me to vote for? You accuse the town of sheeping onto kurumi, well maybe if you had made a case for someone else to be lynched you could have convinced the town to switch their votes. And I think your rules are a pretty bad idea. In an ideal world the rules sound like a great idea. But I think when you post this long 10 point list of rules and at the end you say if you don't follow these I am going to assume you are scum, the only thing you are going to do is discourage people from analyzing. If people have to go and follow 100 rules before they can post their thoughts most of them just won't bother. It's going to make it easier for scum to lurk, since less people will be actively contributing. | ||
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sandroba
Canada4998 Posts
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DropBear
Australia4351 Posts
On May 07 2011 01:12 redtooth wrote: OK EVERYBODY STOP AND LISTEN There is so much criticism and scrutiny on my help-the-town longpost. Honestly I wouldn't have cared as much if you guys knew all of the advice listed there. But seriously none of you guys have shown that you're capable of following it so far. Do you want to know why I posted it in the first place? Because Chaoser was literally the only person who realized my first vote on Irish was a RVS vote and I immediately lost all hope in having a smart town. At no point have you ever voted for Irish_Punk13. You voted for Cthsazsa, then switched to chaoser. Could you explain please? | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On May 07 2011 02:23 redtooth wrote: [/list][*]Standard 10: Failure to abide by these rules will be automatically receive a pFoS (partial Finger of Suspicion) by me and any others who wish to do so. I will treat these like normal FoS and move forward with the assumption that the person is scum with the intention to derail the town. lol this made me chuckle. Anyone that doesn't follow your rules you are going to assume is scum? -_- | ||
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aidnai
United States1159 Posts
The problem with the thread yesterday was that everyone was posting analysis, and (almost) all of it was half-assed and not even worth responding to. Therefore nobody was responding, so none of the cases gained traction (except kurumi t.t). In this situation, scum is not pressured, scum can make weak arguments, scum can wagon freely, scum can lurk without being punished. If everyone is held to high standards, how are the scum going to contribute? if they try to do real analysis, it's either fake (therefore usually weak as well) or a bus. BTW, you are one of the shining examples in the thread so far, i doubt redtooth had you in mind when he wrote this stuff. And he answered your questions already, read his posts again. redtooth's initiative is a pro-town take over of the thread, get on board all townies. | ||
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rredtooth
5459 Posts
DropBear gets a pass because he didn't really go against any of them. I wasn't kidding fellas. Honestly, you're opposing this simply out of ego and it's not helping. I really couldn't care less how you feel, as long as the end product is protown. Really ask yourself - are you doing this because you really think disagreeing will help town or are you doing this because you don't like being ordered around? The strict guidelines are there so there's absolutely no degradation in quality once the game starts moving forward again. If I don't set a cap for quotes, someone will use 5 then 6 then 10 then we have quotewalls all over again. Both of you are wrong in saying that town played well or even acceptable. Please, link me the true "quality" posts from before the night. There's been 31 pages since roles were sent out, maybe there will be 7 quality posts (1% of total) dependent on how lenient you want to be. This is before even considering the fact that it's nearly impossible to follow trains of thought and developments in an argument. By the time you want to 3 more accusations have popped up. We do not have a good atmosphere conducive to scumhunting. We have an atmosphere of chaos where people blurt out arguments, some good but some bad, and they are just swept away by spam. This initiative creates organization that allows the same level of discussion for those that want to contribute to existing arguments. This initiative makes people think twice before they blurt out an accusation for the sake of blurting out an accusation. Listen, the bottom line is that I want to win. You may hate me at the end, but I will do everything, everything I can to win. All of my actions are motivated not by emotions, not by ego, not by anything but an unquenchable desire to win. If you attack me for wanting to win then you are attacking my being town. I am fine with that as long as you provide an objective and solid argument on why my attempts to win are scum objectives instead of town objectives. @Chaoser - I will wait til morning for an official argument. Like I mentioned earlier, I can't lynch anyone at night. But, I now have solid proof that you either goofed a lynch super hard or I was right all along in that you are pushing obvtown lynches. The fact that you are calling out Amber for voting Kurumi is SUPER scummy because no townie has the guts to call out someone for doing something they themselves advocated VERY hard for ("60% chance flipping red" iirc). | ||
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chaoser
United States5541 Posts
The fact that you are calling out Amber for voting Kurumi is SUPER scummy because no townie has the guts to call out someone for doing something they themselves advocated VERY hard for ("60% chance flipping red" iirc). I'm calling him out on the fact that he has SHITTY reasoning for voting kurumi. And that he hasn't contributed at all. How is that scummy for me to do? I thought Kurumi was scummy for GOOD reason (The perceived chainsaw defense from Irish, his quick switch, his god awful plan that made no sense, his nonsense post) when Amber doesn't even take an actual stance on Kurumi. You can't be calling me out as scummy for asking Amber to contribute more...that's just ridiculous. | ||
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sandroba
Canada4998 Posts
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rredtooth
5459 Posts
On May 07 2011 02:43 sandroba wrote: First off, I apologize to everybody for making this post. It was arrogant, it wasn't protown and contradicts everything I had been pushing for thus far. I sincerely apologize for it. My only defense was that it was made in a state of rage. If edits were allowed, that post would have been gone immediately but unfortunately it'll stay as a stain in this thread.I must admit I raged a bit when I saw your post because of your patronizing behaviour. While I do not agree with some of your points (first line should be implicit imo, not sure about restriction on quotes), I'm willing to give this a try and see how this goes, because I really like the cosponsor idea, as it would make it evident people hoping on bullshit analysis. You are putting a huge effort into organazing things, and I find it very unlikely you would be doing this if you were mafia. I still strongly believe (and will be held acountable) irish is mafia. Secondly, I respect your opinion and am eagerly waiting for an organized accusation on Irish. On May 07 2011 02:39 Mig wrote: Hey Mig. I am trying to take some leadership but I goofed up bad in attacking you guys' skills. However, please help as we move forward.I think you are being ridiculous right now redtooth. If the town is being so impossibly bad how about taking some leadership and actually putting us in the right direction. I want you to look at this from my viewpoint for a second. On one hand I see kurumi who is obviously spamming and trolling with 90% of his posts. Who then comes up this ridiculous explanation that all his posting was a plan (I still think this was a lie, I think he just posted terribly at the start and then made up something to try and save himself). Then on the other side the absolute only argument defending him is you saying hes so bad he can't be mafia. Which in my limited experience isn't always going to be the case. Along with this after you defended irish/kurumi you don't make any argument for who people should lynch. You say killer is somewhat scummy but make no argument for him. You say chaoser is the most scummy but then claim you don't have time to make a case to get him lynched. So really with the information that I have who do you expect me to vote for? I defended Kurumi and he flipped green. I wanted you to cast your vote for Chaoser but was afraid that calling for a mass voteswap in the 11th hour would have made us end up lynching someone random along the way (remember scum can always fake inactivity and not switch). Also, please note that my case against Chaoser is still 100% viable (nothing has happened so far to contradict any of the claims made) but Chaoser's argument against Irish has essentially shattered. Since I too need to be held by the same standards, I'll be making an official accusation on him very soon. On May 07 2011 02:48 kitaman27 wrote: [/list]Yes. Why would any townie not want to follow quidelines that promote a more protown environment? Honestly, the rules are draconian as hell but they aren't creating a proscum environment right? And by definition, only scum should act with the intent to be antitown. So following that line of thought I think it's safe to think that anybody who doesn't follow it is scum.I was really afraid with the number of new people we had this game that there were going to be tons of lurkers and modkills. I was surprised by the number of people that actually came out to post analysis. Obviously, it would have been nice to get a correct lynch, but at least we have a decent amount of information to go by. lol this made me chuckle. Anyone that doesn't follow your rules you are going to assume is scum? -_- | ||
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DropBear
Australia4351 Posts
If there are any detectives out there, check this guy. If you force everybody to post exactly the same way then how the hell are we supposed to pick out scum? Your plan is extremely anti-town. If you want people to improve their posting, why not tell them to be more structured instead of making everyone look the same? If everybody looked the same, we'd get tired of looking at each other. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOI-zEwjdEQ You still haven't explained the absolute backflip between your original longpost and your new town guidelines. You also still haven't explained your comment about voting for Irish when you never did. | ||
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rredtooth
5459 Posts
On May 07 2011 02:48 DropBear wrote: Well actually I attempted to vote for him pre-Day1 but at no point did I actually think Irish was scum. I was actually the guy that staked his life defending Irish and Kurumi. Cthsazsa was a baitvote and Chaoser is my realvote.One more thing I noticed after going over your post again. At no point have you ever voted for Irish_Punk13. You voted for Cthsazsa, then switched to chaoser. Could you explain please? On May 07 2011 03:06 chaoser wrote: Hrm. Well honestly there's no real nice way to put this one. Personally, I wouldn't have the gall to call out someone for voting on a lynch that I advocated extremely hard for.I'm calling him out on the fact that he has SHITTY reasoning for voting kurumi. And that he hasn't contributed at all. How is that scummy for me to do? | ||
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rredtooth
5459 Posts
On May 07 2011 03:17 DropBear wrote: By examining the content and merit of their argument. Honestly, isn't that what we want? We don't want the speechwriters or the rabblerousers drowning out the silently intelligent.Redtooth, if I survive the night, I am going to vote to lynch you as soon as I get to my computer. If there are any detectives out there, check this guy. If you force everybody to post exactly the same way then how the hell are we supposed to pick out scum? Your plan is extremely anti-town. A standard ensures two things: - that there is a minimum (not maximum) quality expected of the town - that there are repercussions for advocating misleading lynches Please, think through this carefully. If after considering it you still believe that it is antitown, by all means feel free to vote me. | ||
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sandroba
Canada4998 Posts
@redtooth you kind of screwed up in the way you posted this, because I feel a lot of people will opose this because of ego alone, so it will be harder to get a read on them. | ||
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aidnai
United States1159 Posts
Finally, could you explain to me why suspicious =/= scummy? I don't understand. forgot I wanted to address this. Kurumi is the PERFECT example of suspicious =/= scummy. Was kurumi's motivation for posting hard to understand? suspicious looking? YES. Was kurumi scummy? NO. In almost all situations, the number one scum objective is to not look suspicious, which is why kurumi was obviously not scum. As a general rule, people that show no concern for how they appear to people are townies. This of course is most applicable to noob level play. A large proportion of the FoSing and analysis yesterday (especially towards Kurumi) was focussed on suspicious behaviour that really was not scummy. EVERYBODY THAT HAS A PROBLEM WITH REDTOOTH'S INITIATIVE: (that's you, kita, dropbear, chaoser, etc) If you don't think the thread was in need of fixing or that redtooth's solution is bad, send a quick PM to Ver asking - What do you think about the thread environment day 1? - What would you propose should be done to improve it? I guarantee the answers you get back are - Thread is a POS, i couldn't even read it - Without PM's, your only option is to bulldog everyone into behaving. | ||
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rredtooth
5459 Posts
On May 07 2011 03:17 DropBear wrote: I'm sorry I still don't get what the "backflip" you're referring to is. The initiative doesn't address #1 at all, strictly enforces #2, doesn't change #3, strongly advocates #4.You still haven't explained the absolute backflip between your original longpost and your new town guidelines. You also still haven't explained your comment about voting for Irish when you never did. You're right in that I no longer care about #5. Having fun is no longer an option with the negative tone of the game. The gloves are off and we're playing to win now. | ||
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aidnai
United States1159 Posts
On May 07 2011 02:38 chaoser wrote: ... I ain't going to write "I, chaoser, blah blah blah". I will however, proposition this: Amber[Light] has been playing lurker-ish I'll come back to the Irish issue once he's posted and responded to our questions to him. Anyway onto Amber. Amber is a vet player, and he generally posts a lot. Not just posts a lot, he also usually very active in calling people out and making FoS's on people he thinks is scummy. Except this game he hasn't. Most of his posts have been either asking or answer questions; in fact, out of his 5 total (game relevant) posts in this thread, he's pretty much only asked and answered questions in 3 of them. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216644¤tpage=22#426 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216644¤tpage=22#427 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=216644¤tpage=22#439 In the two posts where he actually tries to take a stance on someone (In this case Kurumi), he pretty much says the reason he's voting for kurumi is because he wants information. He never outright says that he's suspicous of kurumi, just that: and before, he questions where the Kurumi flip will lead: Clearly he doesn't really support the Kurumi lynch but when questioned on if he actually believes the vote though, he responds to redtooth with: Which seems like a throw-away reason. For that, I ask that Amber start to post more. His excuse that he's at work and so he can't do much is nulled by the fact that he generally posts a lot anyway as can be seen in insane 1, and insane 2. He hasn't contributed much to the discussion even though he's clearly caught up to speed and has been reading the thread. This same sentiment is also applied to GGQ. He gives the advice to DropBear: You need to better explain your reasoning for voting Kurumi (Pretty much that he was acting like serejai aka trolling and so he's probably scum) and why you're not posting as much FoS? Vote? might we expect a fullblown analysis with an accusation soon? I must say I look forward to it if you do it. Amber is certainly a scummy player and I plan to push his lynch today, but I can't tell if you're serious about him from this post. | ||
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