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On August 04 2012 07:02 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 06:53 slOosh wrote:On August 04 2012 06:43 Zephirdd wrote:On August 04 2012 06:24 slOosh wrote:
No, this isn't an issue of confidence. Confidence would be saying "WBG is scum/town" rather than "I think WBG is scum/town". What you said was "WBG thinks *this*" and saying "I think WBG thinks *this*" makes no difference, because you are claiming you know how someone is thinking and I'm calling BS on that.
What post of his makes you assume WBG is thinking in the same way as you? When you defend someone, do you know what that person is thinking? I don't find wbg's actions scummy. I gave you a possible POV that shows you that he wasn't scummy(aka. what I think he was thinking). What else is there to say? Usually, since you can glean thoughts from posts. I've asked which of WBG's posts you have gleaned that thought "there is scum in the masons", and you still haven't given me anything, nor a sufficient explanation. In either case, would you please shed some thoughts on prplhz or any other potential lynch candidate for today? I made a mini-case on talismania if you are interested. When wbg instaclaims he is masoned with VE, and then later with Erandorr, my initial thought is that he is outing masons because it's likely that masons are scum. Simple as that. My notes on prplhz are "baiting". I don't find him disruptive and he is making sense. Will re-read tho.
The thing about prplhz is that I thought he's baiting as well but he said he's honest with what he said 
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On August 04 2012 07:02 Zephirdd wrote:
When wbg instaclaims he is masoned with VE, and then later with Erandorr, my initial thought is that he is outing masons because it's likely that some masons are scum. Simple as that.
^ebwop fix
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zeph and toad, thoughts on the other?
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On August 04 2012 07:13 talismania wrote:
zeph and toad, thoughts on the other?
don't ask the same things over and over again especially when those questions are already answered. This is making me want to lynch you first even more.
Although WBG is pretty tempting as well.
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filter check... ok so you put him in your rainbow list but I don't see any other mention. So... ?
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On August 04 2012 07:28 talismania wrote:
filter check... ok so you put him in your rainbow list but I don't see any other mention. So... ?
don't know, I only know I mentioned him at least once.
I'm done answering things for today, see you guys tomorrow and hopefully some people start doing "stuff".
I'm especially looking at WBG and VE.
I don't want you to defend yourself because I called you weird/mafia once VE. If I really wanted you dead RIGHT NAO I'd keep explaining stuff instead of just keeping you on my list. That's nothing considering you're VE, I'm Toad and I'm talking to you, remember last game? So do something.
WBG had literally done nothing so far and I can't tell if he genuinely is pissed so far or if he's trying to fake being pissed. Either way that's not helping right now.
And the shitton of people who are about to be modkilled need to get in here. I highly doubt that all of the mafias are within this group of people actually playing the game.
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NONONONO MAFIA REFLECTED THE HEAT FROM WBG TO ZEPH
##Vote: Wherebugsgo
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On August 04 2012 07:48 grush57 wrote:
NONONONO MAFIA REFLECTED THE HEAT FROM WBG TO ZEPH
##Vote: Wherebugsgo
Pretty bold first post there, care to state your findings?
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On August 04 2012 07:39 Toadesstern wrote:
And the shitton of people who are about to be modkilled need to get in here. I highly doubt that all of the mafias are within this group of people actually playing the game.
Doesn't the day last 48 hours and started last night? Nobody is about to be modkilled. Day ends saturday at 9pm EST. (unless i'm wrong)
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On August 04 2012 07:49 BioSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 07:48 grush57 wrote:
NONONONO MAFIA REFLECTED THE HEAT FROM WBG TO ZEPH
##Vote: Wherebugsgo Pretty bold first post there, care to state your findings?
THE STARSENSES, THEY ARE COOOOMMING TOO MEEE
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On August 04 2012 04:11 Toadesstern wrote:
Although the updated list would probably be:
Talis
Prplhz
Zephirdd
VE
This is literally your only mention of him so no you didn't talk about him. You replied to him a couple of times but no other comment. So how'd he end up on your rainbow list?
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On August 04 2012 06:11 Zephirdd wrote:
Maybe I am taking too confidently. Fine let me rephrase that for you
I think wbg thinks a scum mason would mason him. Why? Because at the time, I thought "a scum would mason wbg!". However, I don't think either erandorr nor ve are scum at this point. It does make sense, however, that he would out masons. After all, a town mason has nothing to fear(if you assume medics exist) unlike a scum mason.
And the "bullshit" part was just me being mad. "Hey some people posted nothing, let's say this guy who's been giving his opinions on subjects and calling people on other and say he has done nothing!". -_-
Zephirdd, I think I may be too dumb to understand you here. You are saying that a town mason has nothing to fear, assuming medics exist. By that you agree that giving the names of town masons to everyone, scum included, puts them in more danger? Danger they really didn't need to be in? And also, if town has medics, do you really think its good to force them to protect more people ? In my braindead opinion, that rather sounds like making mafias job of hitting the targets they want easier.
And since I am reaaaally slow today, could you also explain what a scum mason has to fear from being outed at that point in the game? Is it just assuming that once a few town masons are dead, the rest must be scum? I am sure there must be more!
masons themselves shouldn't unless that would save his life.
What you said makes sense. Mason'd people shouldnt claim :s
These were your statements about claims early in the game. How was wbg claiming for them something that made you change your mind?
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I am so impressed, Erandorr, you are so elaborate. Nobody even remotely suspects you of being mafia.
You painted yourself to be a very big opponent of mason claims.
+ Show Spoiler [As seen here] +On August 03 2012 12:26 Erandorr wrote:YO talismania : wtf Show nested quote +Mason is kind of worthless for town and at face value is little different than a vanilla townie.
--A normal pair of masons have the benefit of knowing that one person is definitively town, and being able to claim that later. There is no such guarantee in this game. It's just like posting in the thread with someone except without anyone else seeing it, plus they're going to be extra suspicious of you. Of course you can glean a lot of information just by talking as well, which is a plus regardless. So lets see. Townie masons are kind of bad because all you can do is privatly talk to someone to get information and a feeling of not some random player, but someone you want to talk to more? Also explain the bolded part please. Why are you focused on how a town mason is looking trying to get information? Show nested quote +2) Mason is kind of a worthless role for scum.
--A scum mason is an annoying role to play. Do you pick townies, a scumbuddy, etc. What do you say to whom you buddy, each day? Seems fraught. Are you serious? Can you really think of no reason how a scum mason could be useful? Show nested quote +3) One interesting point is that if there is a town mason, there's likely a scum mason. Given the setup description, I find it hard to believe in fact that this would not be the case. This makes the role doubly poisonous/useless for scum. As it stands now, there are 5 scum and 19 townies (25%). If all the masons claim, and scum claims with them, I'm betting it's closer to 50/50 ratio. Maybe 2 town, 2 scum. That's shit for scum, so they won't want to claim. Except that they might think if they don't claim those that do are going to get too much town cred and yadda yadda.
Yeah those kind of speculations always work out and are totally valid and never before produced complete retard lynches! Show nested quote +4) So why not have them claim? Sounds fine to me but I don't think it's necessary either.
Okay. So would I be correct in saying that you think the mason role is so shitty that having it claimed wouldn't really help anyways, so why bother? If I misunderstood feel free to elaborate. Show nested quote +5) If you are masoned for the day - you MUST claim. There is no reason not to claim that. And save your logs and communications, because that shit needs to end up in the thread eventually.
Why? I can think of reasons not to claim that, actually. And just because you can do something doesn't really mean you should , right?
But mafia either already knows who the masons are by receiving PMs, or sleep soundly at night knowing the masons are bickering among the townies in private, accusing each other of being scum behind each others' backs.
Along comes WBG and gives away VE, to which you replied:
On August 03 2012 20:54 Erandorr wrote:
any reason why you would out VE as mason this early? I mean thats kind of retarded.
WBG confirms his stance on revealing masons, and has already done so in practice with an attitude that would assure anyone that he would easily do it again.
+ Show Spoiler [Here] +On August 03 2012 21:10 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 20:59 wherebugsgo wrote:
Pot calling the kettle black...
Let me break this down into simpler terms for you (and I thought that wasn't possible!)
1. Being a mason isn't alignment indicative (therefore outting a mason is rather worthless)
2. The playerbase of this game will not understand stuff unless it's obviously stated.
3. If we are both town then mafia will strongly consider shooting one of us. Which means that we will make good protects. Which means that it potentially forces mafia to shoot suboptimally. Sorry wbg, I am just too retarded to understand you.
Within the same hour you mason WBG and get your role revealed. This warrants WBG's reveal of your role being anti-town; your role specifically, revealing VE was just "retarded", not necessarily anti-town. If you had filed your mason request before WBG revealed VE, he would have revealed both of you at the same time. BC was online at the time, as per his voting thread announcement, allowing for all of this to happen in rapid succession. You have abused WBG's rash decision making to your advantage, which I commend.
+ Show Spoiler [Time of BC's post] +On August 03 2012 21:20 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Please move all voting into the voting thread I just created Here
Thank you
Erandorr's reasonings:
+ Show Spoiler [Here] +On August 03 2012 23:53 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 23:51 strongandbig wrote:On August 03 2012 21:48 wherebugsgo wrote:
Erandorr just masoned me. Dunno if he's scum or just dumb though.
Also I didn't ask either of them before outting them. errandorr I was kind of hoping you would address this without being prompted but... I wanted to see if he did it again, considering I know my alignment. Its a completely anti town move . Give me one reason why not to hammer wbg right now please.
+ Show Spoiler [And here] +On August 04 2012 01:37 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 01:31 talismania wrote:On August 04 2012 00:39 talismania wrote:On August 03 2012 23:53 Erandorr wrote:On August 03 2012 23:51 strongandbig wrote:On August 03 2012 21:48 wherebugsgo wrote:
Erandorr just masoned me. Dunno if he's scum or just dumb though.
Also I didn't ask either of them before outting them. errandorr I was kind of hoping you would address this without being prompted but... I wanted to see if he did it again, considering I know my alignment. Its a completely anti town move . Give me one reason why not to hammer wbg right now please. can you walk me through your thought process a little more? It seemed like you were against masons being in public given your agreement with toad. So why did you risk outing yourself? Its a completely anti town move to out people like that without thoughts on alignment or actually any information. They may have been context with VE, but I thought of it as trading my role for confirming wbg as scum. it is that easy.
+ Show Spoiler [Finally here] +On August 04 2012 01:40 Erandorr wrote:
EBWOP: at that point I wasnt actually certain that wbg was scum at all.
Something else I would like to point out that fucks over wbgs shitty logic even more, he pretended to give reasons on why he outed VE. Now what exactly were his reasons to out me , assuming he is town? He seems to think that I am town, so why do that to me?
Suddenly you become the victim of something you, apparently, could not forsee, making you look town. You try to convince people that WBG's move was anti-town, while the move against VE "may have been context", or was just "retarded", but not anti-town yet.
It doesn't even matter whether WBG is town or mafia! He could be scum, and you may have asked him to rat you out without you even being a mason. I don't know.
But you, Erandorr, I am very impressed with. That was clever. I will strive to be like you in the future.
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@Erandorr
1. I said the people mason'd shouldn't claim "I was mason'd" because of this:
The biggest issue: If you are masoned you don't claim. Ever. If you are masoned you either got masoned because someone thinks you're scum and wants to sacrifice himself to catch you with a trap in PM-Land for a 1v1 trade (highly unlikely but possible) or you got masoned because the guy thinks it's highly likely you are town and wants to talk with you to get another point of view on reads, to make sure he stays objective. So claiming you got masoned is basicly telling mafia "sup, someone think's I'm the most likely guy to be a townie IN THE GAME. Pretty please don't shoot me though". I don't like outing townreads and I don't like outing the strongest townread someone has either.
by Toad
However, this only applies when you are claiming that YOU YOURSELF were masoned. I admit I didn't put proper thought on this, but wbg says nicely when he says that now medics have their targets and now scum are forced to shot sub-optimaly.
A scum mason fears being outed because that will put him on the spotlight for the whole game. That's not exactly what scum wants.
Also, a medic's biggest dilemma is "who to save". When they have their "MUST SAVE" targets and scum are forced to shot suboptimaly, they are doing their job. Besides, there is always the WIFOM for both medic and scum "but what if I protect someone else because they think he will be save/but what if I shoot him because the medic will prot someone else"; In my opinion, this kind of WIFOM benefits the medic(and town) more than scum who either have to take a chance or shoot a really bad target.
Also, as long as only wbg did it and only now, I guess there is no problem with it.
Now, one odd thing is that wbg has been away for some time already. I usually don't like to think a vet would play badly. Him going away is bad for him being scum AND town. Maybe I'm wrong after all? :S
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On August 03 2012 10:41 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 10:36 JingleHell wrote:On August 03 2012 10:34 prplhz wrote:
And we're off.
This is a 23 player game and I will not be able to handle it if there is a 130 page spamfest between a couple of people before night1. Seriously, condense your god damn posting. That said, there's also a couple of new/newer people on the list. You guys remember to post your thoughts and stuff on the game. No one here bites. Do you bite if we ask nicely? Zephirdd, don't you think there's danger of an early bandwagon voting with no cause like that? It's hard to defend yourself against a vote for no reason. FoS Zephirdd What. If you really think an early bandwagon would come from a vote like that, then you are silly. He doesn't even have to defend himself against non-existant accusations. ##unvote
##vote JingleHell
Zephirdd's change from one unfounded vote to another tells me that
1. He doesn't care who is lynched
2. He doesn't feel comfortable dealing with pressure, so he fires back on jinglehell counterproductively.
On August 03 2012 20:02 Zephirdd wrote:
Masoned players should claim IMO.
masons themselves shouldn't unless that would save his life.
toad, why improvise? Are you feeling some kind of pressure that stops you from making a decent post?
On August 03 2012 20:27 Zephirdd wrote:
What you said makes sense. Mason'd people shouldnt claim :s
wbg mason does sound scary too
Another example of an unsubstantiated position-taking. After a legit response from toad, another switch.
He sounds way too meek in the latter quote.
Any objections/further evidence backed by specific evidence? Cause I'm leaning toward voting zephirdd.
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On August 04 2012 08:16 Hier wrote:I am so impressed, Erandorr, you are so elaborate. Nobody even remotely suspects you of being mafia. You painted yourself to be a very big opponent of mason claims. + Show Spoiler [As seen here] +On August 03 2012 12:26 Erandorr wrote:YO talismania : wtf Show nested quote +Mason is kind of worthless for town and at face value is little different than a vanilla townie.
--A normal pair of masons have the benefit of knowing that one person is definitively town, and being able to claim that later. There is no such guarantee in this game. It's just like posting in the thread with someone except without anyone else seeing it, plus they're going to be extra suspicious of you. Of course you can glean a lot of information just by talking as well, which is a plus regardless. So lets see. Townie masons are kind of bad because all you can do is privatly talk to someone to get information and a feeling of not some random player, but someone you want to talk to more? Also explain the bolded part please. Why are you focused on how a town mason is looking trying to get information? Show nested quote +2) Mason is kind of a worthless role for scum.
--A scum mason is an annoying role to play. Do you pick townies, a scumbuddy, etc. What do you say to whom you buddy, each day? Seems fraught. Are you serious? Can you really think of no reason how a scum mason could be useful? Show nested quote +3) One interesting point is that if there is a town mason, there's likely a scum mason. Given the setup description, I find it hard to believe in fact that this would not be the case. This makes the role doubly poisonous/useless for scum. As it stands now, there are 5 scum and 19 townies (25%). If all the masons claim, and scum claims with them, I'm betting it's closer to 50/50 ratio. Maybe 2 town, 2 scum. That's shit for scum, so they won't want to claim. Except that they might think if they don't claim those that do are going to get too much town cred and yadda yadda.
Yeah those kind of speculations always work out and are totally valid and never before produced complete retard lynches! Show nested quote +4) So why not have them claim? Sounds fine to me but I don't think it's necessary either.
Okay. So would I be correct in saying that you think the mason role is so shitty that having it claimed wouldn't really help anyways, so why bother? If I misunderstood feel free to elaborate. Show nested quote +5) If you are masoned for the day - you MUST claim. There is no reason not to claim that. And save your logs and communications, because that shit needs to end up in the thread eventually.
Why? I can think of reasons not to claim that, actually. And just because you can do something doesn't really mean you should , right? But mafia either already knows who the masons are by receiving PMs, or sleep soundly at night knowing the masons are bickering among the townies in private, accusing each other of being scum behind each others' backs. Along comes WBG and gives away VE, to which you replied: Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 20:54 Erandorr wrote:
any reason why you would out VE as mason this early? I mean thats kind of retarded. WBG confirms his stance on revealing masons, and has already done so in practice with an attitude that would assure anyone that he would easily do it again. + Show Spoiler [Here] +On August 03 2012 21:10 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 20:59 wherebugsgo wrote:
Pot calling the kettle black...
Let me break this down into simpler terms for you (and I thought that wasn't possible!)
1. Being a mason isn't alignment indicative (therefore outting a mason is rather worthless)
2. The playerbase of this game will not understand stuff unless it's obviously stated.
3. If we are both town then mafia will strongly consider shooting one of us. Which means that we will make good protects. Which means that it potentially forces mafia to shoot suboptimally. Sorry wbg, I am just too retarded to understand you. Within the same hour you mason WBG and get your role revealed. This warrants WBG's reveal of your role being anti-town; your role specifically, revealing VE was just "retarded", not necessarily anti-town. If you had filed your mason request before WBG revealed VE, he would have revealed both of you at the same time. BC was online at the time, as per his voting thread announcement, allowing for all of this to happen in rapid succession. You have abused WBG's rash decision making to your advantage, which I commend. + Show Spoiler [Time of BC's post] +On August 03 2012 21:20 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Please move all voting into the voting thread I just created Here
Thank you Erandorr's reasonings: + Show Spoiler [Here] +On August 03 2012 23:53 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2012 23:51 strongandbig wrote:On August 03 2012 21:48 wherebugsgo wrote:
Erandorr just masoned me. Dunno if he's scum or just dumb though.
Also I didn't ask either of them before outting them. errandorr I was kind of hoping you would address this without being prompted but... I wanted to see if he did it again, considering I know my alignment. Its a completely anti town move . Give me one reason why not to hammer wbg right now please. On August 04 2012 01:37 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 01:31 talismania wrote:On August 04 2012 00:39 talismania wrote:On August 03 2012 23:53 Erandorr wrote:On August 03 2012 23:51 strongandbig wrote:On August 03 2012 21:48 wherebugsgo wrote:
Erandorr just masoned me. Dunno if he's scum or just dumb though.
Also I didn't ask either of them before outting them. errandorr I was kind of hoping you would address this without being prompted but... I wanted to see if he did it again, considering I know my alignment. Its a completely anti town move . Give me one reason why not to hammer wbg right now please. can you walk me through your thought process a little more? It seemed like you were against masons being in public given your agreement with toad. So why did you risk outing yourself? Its a completely anti town move to out people like that without thoughts on alignment or actually any information. They may have been context with VE, but I thought of it as trading my role for confirming wbg as scum. it is that easy. On August 04 2012 01:40 Erandorr wrote:
EBWOP: at that point I wasnt actually certain that wbg was scum at all.
Something else I would like to point out that fucks over wbgs shitty logic even more, he pretended to give reasons on why he outed VE. Now what exactly were his reasons to out me , assuming he is town? He seems to think that I am town, so why do that to me?
Suddenly you become the victim of something you, apparently, could not forsee, making you look town. You try to convince people that WBG's move was anti-town, while the move against VE "may have been context", or was just "retarded", but not anti-town yet. It doesn't even matter whether WBG is town or mafia! He could be scum, and you may have asked him to rat you out without you even being a mason. I don't know. But you, Erandorr, I am very impressed with. That was clever. I will strive to be like you in the future.
Dear god I hope you are trolling
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On August 04 2012 08:17 Zephirdd wrote:@Erandorr 1. I said the people mason'd shouldn't claim "I was mason'd" because of this: Show nested quote +The biggest issue: If you are masoned you don't claim. Ever. If you are masoned you either got masoned because someone thinks you're scum and wants to sacrifice himself to catch you with a trap in PM-Land for a 1v1 trade (highly unlikely but possible) or you got masoned because the guy thinks it's highly likely you are town and wants to talk with you to get another point of view on reads, to make sure he stays objective. So claiming you got masoned is basicly telling mafia "sup, someone think's I'm the most likely guy to be a townie IN THE GAME. Pretty please don't shoot me though". I don't like outing townreads and I don't like outing the strongest townread someone has either. by Toad However, this only applies when you are claiming that YOU YOURSELF were masoned. I admit I didn't put proper thought on this, but wbg says nicely when he says that now medics have their targets and now scum are forced to shot sub-optimaly. A scum mason fears being outed because that will put him on the spotlight for the whole game. That's not exactly what scum wants. Also, a medic's biggest dilemma is "who to save". When they have their "MUST SAVE" targets and scum are forced to shot suboptimaly, they are doing their job. Besides, there is always the WIFOM for both medic and scum "but what if I protect someone else because they think he will be save/but what if I shoot him because the medic will prot someone else"; In my opinion, this kind of WIFOM benefits the medic(and town) more than scum who either have to take a chance or shoot a really bad target. Also, as long as only wbg did it and only now, I guess there is no problem with it. Now, one odd thing is that wbg has been away for some time already. I usually don't like to think a vet would play badly. Him going away is bad for him being scum AND town. Maybe I'm wrong after all? :S
No Zephirdd, thats not what you said.
You said that masons should not claim unless their life depended on it. I have it as a quote in my post, buddy.
I am going to try this one more time. Slowly. Hang on.
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wbg is not a mason, is he?
I said a mason shouldn't claim. WBG, the claimed vanilla, outed a mason. Two very different things.
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Zeph 2 questions:
1) Who is scum?
2) Why do you think so?
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EPT
