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TL interviews Dustin Browder at Blizzcon - Page 22

Forum Index > SC2 General
579 CommentsPost a Reply
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pezit
Profile Joined October 2010
Sweden302 Posts
October 25 2011 10:01 GMT
#421
You don't have to ruin the pathfinding to fix the death balls. A start would be to remove the colossus which walks on top of other units, then just increase the "hitboxes" of units slightly so that they cannot be so closely packed. Giving each race a unit that is very strong when they're in a positional advantage like the reaver/Siege tank/Lurker in BW. The high ground miss chance was another mechanic in broodwar that let you spread out your units, because even if you had less food defending a base than what he was attacking with your units were stronger because of their position.

Amazing interview by kennegit, asking the hard questions and not just sucking up.
Audio
Profile Joined March 2010
United States60 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-25 10:09:49
October 25 2011 10:04 GMT
#422
This interview makes me so sad .. : /

EDIT: great interview though, I mean the questions you asked basically affirmed my suspicions that blizzard is clueless....
Zeon0
Profile Joined September 2010
Austria2995 Posts
October 25 2011 10:06 GMT
#423
nice interview, but i think he should have been a little more offensive in terms of maps. Maybe ask him directly if he thinks its was a fair final game of Blizzcon, if Nestea has to play Mvp on Shattered close positions^^
Hater of MKP since GSL Open Season 2 | Fanboy of: NesTea Stephano IdrA DIMAGA MorroW ret DongRaeGu Snute SaSe Mvp ThorZaIN DeMusliM
Toadvine
Profile Joined November 2010
Poland2234 Posts
October 25 2011 10:10 GMT
#424
On October 25 2011 18:50 m0ck wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 25 2011 18:43 Micket wrote:
On October 25 2011 18:11 Toadvine wrote:
Well, at least Browder's sincere in the "you should go back to Brood War if you don't like this" statements, always nice to see the PR bullshit dropped for a bit. Still, it's really worrying that he doesn't see any major problems with the current design of the game. Both Protoss and Zerg look like ticking time-bombs, with Protoss having the possibility to be completely awful come HotS, and Zerg being insanely oveprowered with their new stuff.

I also don't like his way of dealing with the "deathball" problem. You should do that by introducing more harassment opportunities and units that work well in small numbers, so having all your shit in one place actually becomes a bad idea. Not by designing units that CAN'T be used in an army, like Shredders or Oracles.

On October 25 2011 13:45 Raiznhell wrote:
Honestly there's too much whining about Terran specifically. Like honestly aside from Code S no other tournament is very Terran heavy AT ALL. Also nobody points to the fact that Code S has a lot of issues with routing bad players out of Code S and getting good players in. The whole tournament system pre-Ro16 is entirely flawed.

Just look at how Code S became filled with Terran in the first place. Because Code A got stacked with Good players that belonged in Code S like MMA, Ganzi, Mvp and Bomber to name a few. They all climbed their way into Code S however due to the flaw of up and downs not all the bad players were routed out.

But now look at Code A full of Zerg and Protoss who are all going to make their shot for Code S and is now also getting refilled by more Protoss and Zerg specifically 4 foreigner Protoss and Zerg players and what do you think is going to happen? Code S may start to balance out or even become dry of Terrans.

People Jump on the hate train way too fast and never have patience. Look at MLG Orlando, IEM, IPL and now the Korean Weekly. All going to have Protoss and Zerg Champions and not even have Terran make it to the finals. No good Terrans some have said? WHAT? PuMA, Bomber, TheSTC, forGG (who's playing fantastically) Taeja? all not good Terrans? Get outta here.

Another thing to touch on is look at BW. 99% of players would argue that BW is almost completely balanced and is the most balanced game in the world involving 3+race/faction differential. Yet still....guess what Terran is pretty damn dominant. Protoss and Zergs catch their time every now and then but for the most part you would see Fantasy or Flash or going way back BoxeR, NaDa, OOV even lesser Terrans like Midas dominate a ton.

There was a point in BW where Terran literally seemed unbeatable until eventually someone who figure one little thing out. Yet in SC2 everyone points to Terran being imba when the only real Tournament Terran is seeing a lot of success in is Code S which again is only Terran heavy due to Code A being filled with Z and P right now and a flawed up and down system.

I guarantee you that is a player in SC2 loses a game in the current state it's because he deserved to and he could have won had he played better.


I read stuff like this, and I marvel at how good the human mind is at lying to itself. You probably really believe this to be sound reasoning, which is a bit depressing. But hey, anything is better than admitting that Terran is too good, because that would hurt the precious egos of Terran players who lose to Zerg and Protoss on the ladder.

I mean, come on. There are 19 Terrans in Code S because "there just happened to be awesome Terran players in Code A"? I guess you're one of the people who believe that there are 15 top5 Terrans in Code S, and that they all deserve their spots because of how amazing they are.

I don't even especially think ZvT is especially imbalanced, although it's way easier for an inferior Terran to beat a better Zerg than vice versa. However, to think Protoss is fine from their results in major tournaments and from watching how the games play out requires an amazing amount of denial.

I mean, wow, Protoss actually got Top2 in a tournament with no good ZvPer, and with most of the PvTs having one player cheese or just do retarded crap (like Bomber's "hidden expo" vs Sase on Shakuras or MKP's "24 Marines with no upgrades and 0 bunkers vs 6 Gate"). Awesome. All the while, even with all the "new Protoss hopes" in Code A, we still have 5 Protoss in Code S next season, and that's only because of MC getting a spot from Orlando.

And bringing up BW as an analogy is just so disingenuous. BW had long periods of one race dominating a given matchup, yes, but it wasn't just one race on top of everything constantly. BW winrate graphs have nice sinusoid shapes for almost all the matchups, while the SC2 graph only consistently shows one thing - Terran on top.


Adding to this, those that say Terran is dominant in BW are deluding themselves. True, the bonjwas are mostly Terran, but thats like saying Zerg is dominant because NesTea is a good player. If you look at PL statistics, it is 49%, 50%, 51% winrate, for T, Z, P respectively. That's pretty amazing if you ask me. Outside of Flash and Fantasy, Terrans aren't nearly as good and actually, there are a ton of Zergs who are really good and are better than the majority of Terran players.


This cannot be said enough: outside korea there has been no indication of protoss being the weaker race.


No indication of Protoss being the weaker race outside Korea in BW? o.O

In SC2 there's less and less of a division between "outside Korea" and "inside Korea" as more and more Korean players travel to international events, and more and more foreigners move to Korea to train and compete in GSL. And it's not like Protoss is doing especially well in foreign tournaments anyway. Even at Orlando like half the Top8 are Korean Terrans.
"There are always some Eskimos ready to instruct the Congolese on how to cope with heat waves." - S.J.Lec
Unas84
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands62 Posts
October 25 2011 10:13 GMT
#425
Awesome interview Kennigit!
Macabre
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1262 Posts
October 25 2011 10:15 GMT
#426
Nice interview thanks a lot for this Kennigit.
Those who know how to think need no teachers. Tasteless - I think I'll take my shirt off and let my muscles do the casting
enzym
Profile Joined January 2010
Germany1034 Posts
October 25 2011 10:22 GMT
#427
On October 25 2011 09:57 Pyre wrote:
Good interview, worries me how clueless they act on stuff. How can you not think about how the game changes adding new units. Only adding because they are cool scares me. Yes they can be tweaked but by how much?

On October 25 2011 11:12 dtvu wrote:
Great Interview Kennigit. Dustin Browder sounds earnest in his attempts to make SC2 a great game. I think his points regarding the need to change the theme of each race with addition of new units to be lazy. For me Protoss should always be expensive, strong, highly technologically advanced; Terran is hard hitting, medium cost, defensive oriented; while zerg are fast, cheap and in large numbers.

I agree with these posts, and what Dustin expressed in the interview is what worries me most about the direction of StarCraft.
He said the following:

9:33 "You know, we don't think of the races as really tightly themed... If themes emerge, so be it."
9:53 "There's no way to add a new unit to this game without changing it, right? The race will change. It must change if we add any new units. If you want exactly the same game, please go play Brood War... By the very nature of changing units we will change the nature of the race."
10:23 "We are not as worried about specific character for the race. That's not what we're trying to do."

I appreciate the honesty here, but I have numerous problems with this understanding.
If races don't have a specific theme and feel to them, then what are they other than a name? What makes StarCraft other than the names in it? It loses its character. It becomes dumbed down, an empty shell.
Just like dtvu said: Zerg used to be these creepy, evil aliens, but they changed into being just bug like and very superficially disgusting with WoL. They feel less alien and more like 'just bugs'. Less sinister and more like fancy toys. It changes not only the nature of the race, but the perceived atmosphere of the setting of the entire game itself.

For my next criticism I would like to agree with dtvu again.
Where is the reasoning demanding that the addition of new units must necessarily change the nature and concept of the race? Is that not what artists are there for - to ensure that new content does not break with the concepts and lore that was previously there?
I, too, think that Blizzard is being lazy here.
Of course the gameplay must change. That's uncontested. It's the purpose of new units. It keeps the content interesting if any great enough lack of interest justifies it and gives the developer better arguments to convince customers to continue to buy expansions.
But the same cannot be said for the atmosphere of the game itself.

They're killing their own universe, and that's fine, if that's what they want to do. But I prefer not only some consistency in setting, but I also prefer xenos over children's toys.
The ease with which Blizzard seems to be able to completely disregard where their stories came from worries and disappoints me.
This realization isn't entirely new, however. People have started to notice it as early as in WC3. It persisted through WoW (where countless elements of lore have been retconned for convenience as well) and has now been introduced into StarCraft, too. I just wish they'd handle their stories with more devotion and care instead of discarding them so easily.

Asking people to go play Brood War instead does not address the issue, being an easy cop-out just as disregarding game history is an easy way to churn out new content.

On another matter, some people have mentioned the Devs wearing Terran-shirts, proposing this as an indicator and reasoning behind balance decisions. I'd like to offer an alternative explanation. Maybe they're just wearing these because they are a Terran corporation, made up of human employees. Seriously guys, there is the possibility that it is just a t-shirt. ^^
"I fart a lot, often on my gf in bed, then we roll around laughing for 5 mins choking in gas." — exog // "…be'master, the art of reflection. If you are not a thinking man, to what purpose are you a man at all?" — S. T. Coleridge
XsebT
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Denmark2980 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-25 10:27:14
October 25 2011 10:23 GMT
#428
Really nice interview. Well done, Kennigit!

I especially liked the bit with:
"Please go play brood war, coz it's awesome" - Dustin Browder.
Of course the quote is taken a little out of context, but I actually admire that they're trying to make a new game. And considering how many people who like it, they're certainly not doing a bad job at it.
화이팅
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9366 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-25 10:30:49
October 25 2011 10:30 GMT
#429
No question about the collosus? Honestly I was sure that blizzard had realized that the collosus was extremely bad designed, and was going to fix it in some way.

Besides from that, Dustin Browder just seems like he is kinda unstructured in the way, that he has a lot of ideas, and think, "hey that could be cool, lets do that". Instead of trying to theoretize the potential drawbacks, and analyze it more indepthly. And if your profession is "starcraft 2 design", you should be able to that. But the kidna problem is that he just doesn't seem to really have a good grasp on what good design is. The only thing he seem to care about, is whether bad players can use the unit as well, but there are a lot more factors that decides whether the design is good or bad, and IMO Blizzard needs to define the factors that define good good design, and pull every unit through that list, before they add them to the expansion.

If they do this intelligently, the beta of HOTS will mostly be a "balance-beta". What will happen instead, is that a lot of units will be taken out of the game, and other readded over the next months untill release, because Dustin Browder did not work systhematically (and test the units through the "good design"-conditions/definitions).

And no, I dont they really have a well throught out definition of good design, because if they had so they would most likely have presented them for the community. Now they are just saying that they want to add cool units.

Someone else mentioned that they did not like that Dustin Browder did not have an idea for how each race should be played, and I agree with that. I feel that each race should be kinda special in the way that "Terran immobile, but strong if well positioned". "Zerg mobile, weak/cheap units". "Toss, mediocore mobile, lots of microable units like storm"."

But the problem with toss is that microable skills (like blink) doesn't make entertaining games in it self. There needs to be more than that, and their plan for toss just doesn't seem very well throught out unfortunately.
Steglich
Profile Joined September 2011
Denmark282 Posts
October 25 2011 10:32 GMT
#430
Great interview! Please hire kennigit to make future interviews (:
Grettin
Profile Joined April 2010
42381 Posts
October 25 2011 10:39 GMT
#431
Great interview. Thanks kennigit & tl.
"If I had force-fields in Brood War, I'd never lose." -Bisu
EaryKing
Profile Joined July 2011
Bulgaria158 Posts
October 25 2011 10:40 GMT
#432
Great everyone in the forum can be a Lead Game Designer. Well done Interview.
"You shouldn't trust your feeling sometimes. Remember Emperor had a feeling that Luke Skywalker would turn to the darkside.
Twinmold
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden238 Posts
October 25 2011 10:41 GMT
#433
Thanks for the interview
SC / LoL / DotA // Twinmold took a moment for himself. He never gave it back.
ImustnotfeaR
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom154 Posts
October 25 2011 10:46 GMT
#434
dear dustin,

thankyou for the creep tumors, the reason i picked zerg!

you are a bald don
'Fear is the mind killer'
zYwi3c
Profile Joined November 2010
Poland1811 Posts
October 25 2011 10:47 GMT
#435
Awesome interview, great questions.

We love you Kennigit.
I'm getting the derection.
Paladia
Profile Joined August 2003
802 Posts
October 25 2011 10:49 GMT
#436
Nice interview but the guy in the Terran shirt obviously dodges the questions about Terran having no weaknesses. It gives me very cold reminders of WoW, where the lead game designer (Tigole, Jeff Kaplan) played Warrior and thus Warriors were the only required class in both PvP and PvE for five years (until he moved on to other tasks). It feels like the people at Blizzard are very biased towards their own race or class. This is alright but not if you are the lead designer or in charge of balance.

To return to the question, he says he wished every race was like that. However, he doesn't have to wish, as he is in charge, he can just make it happen.
I can no longer rest under the tree of wisdom, since you have axed down the roots feeding it.
Dectilon
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden50 Posts
October 25 2011 10:56 GMT
#437
While I don't agree with ever design decision this man has made, I do agree that shaking things up is more valuable than trying to achieve perfect balance; especially when making a commercial add-on.
Pipeline
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden1673 Posts
October 25 2011 11:01 GMT
#438
Thanks Kennigit.

Great interview! I got to say Im very worried about the state of zerg and protoss coming in to HOTS. I feel like zergs will have huge issues where they are all easy countered by terran. I dont like that burrow tech is becoming vital and how easy and fast terrans can counter it. Doing run-by strats will not work when you give terrans shredders (please remove them asap). It feels super weird that the two races with the least amount of units (zerg and protoss) get one or two removed and terran stays the same.

As the situation is with PvT I feel its very weird and awkward by blizzard to remove the only real solid unit protoss have (Zealot), by buffing helions to some crazy shit transformer. I really don't get that. It feels again like terran is suppose to have the most units, the most army supply and the counter to everything. What stands out as the worst decision made by Browder and his team is the replicator. Who thought it was a good idea? That the counter to ghosts late game is for protoss to replicate ghosts to EMP the terrans ghosts first? Is the same logic applied to Infestors and NP? Is the counter to mass ghost late game for zerg to NP a ghost to EMP his ghost buddies to stop the massive snipes of broodlords, ultralisks, overseers, mutalisk and infestors?

I don't like being negative, but I cant help to feel awfully frustrated atm.
FieryBalrog
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States1381 Posts
October 25 2011 11:04 GMT
#439
Cool interview. DB certainly talks at a 100 miles an hour.

I really hope they get a fix on the ball vs ball problem. More importance on positioning and holding ground.
I will eat you alive
Blizzard_torments_me
Profile Joined February 2010
Romania199 Posts
October 25 2011 11:05 GMT
#440
On October 25 2011 20:01 Pipeline wrote:
Thanks Kennigit.

Great interview! I got to say Im very worried about the state of zerg and protoss coming in to HOTS. I feel like zergs will have huge issues where they are all easy countered by terran. I dont like that burrow tech is becoming vital and how easy and fast terrans can counter it. Doing run-by strats will not work when you give terrans shredders (please remove them asap). It feels super weird that the two races with the least amount of units (zerg and protoss) get one or two removed and terran stays the same.

As the situation is with PvT I feel its very weird and awkward by blizzard to remove the only real solid unit protoss have (Zealot), by buffing helions to some crazy shit transformer. I really don't get that. It feels again like terran is suppose to have the most units, the most army supply and the counter to everything. What stands out as the worst decision made by Browder and his team is the replicator. Who thought it was a good idea? That the counter to ghosts late game is for protoss to replicate ghosts to EMP the terrans ghosts first? Is the same logic applied to Infestors and NP? Is the counter to mass ghost late game for zerg to NP a ghost to EMP his ghost buddies to stop the massive snipes of broodlords, ultralisks, overseers, mutalisk and infestors?

I don't like being negative, but I cant help to feel awfully frustrated atm.


Stop whining you hypocrite, Zerg has the most powerful lategame atm. Ghost's are useless against ling baneling, if you'd actually get a support army for those broodlords and not make mostly broodlords you'd roll any ghost composition in late game.

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