EPT[H] PvT, how to stop early pressure when you suck? - Page 2
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Mofisto
United Kingdom585 Posts
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vnlegend
United States1389 Posts
If you're planning to just a-move then I suggest something like 1 zealot, 1 stalker, 1 sentry opening into mass zealots, some sentries, and a few stalkers (like 10 lots, 4 sentries, 3 stalkers). | ||
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ZeNd0kUn
United States331 Posts
OP ... your APM is pretty low so your Terran opponent who had a far higher APM could micro by kiting those Marauders and expand and build more Barracks and constantly streamline units from those Barracks. I thought this was the norm for Diamond players. Anyways yeah early game it's all about surviving those rushes and Marauder Marine attacks in PvT. When it gets to the higher levels you get other kinds of rushes .. Thor, Marine and SCV rushes ... the Raven Banshee Marine and a couple of Marauder rushes ... and even some rushes with some tanks. So yeah ... enjoy the PvT matchup and really stop the Terran-is-easy-to-play-IMBA whining. The Protoss race is programmed for the player to use lower number of very expensive units to win against a mass number of relatively cheaper units. A sentry is good only when the player actually knows how and when to use it's abilities. Notice how your opponent focuse fired your sentries as they were warped in .. he knew he had to get those out of the way. And once the attacking wave had calmed down you really needed to play defensively since the early 2 Marauders picked off a lot of Probes .. you could have assumed he would have expanded, made more Barracks and have more units. So he was worlds ahead of you and the game was pretty much lost at that point .. but i think you went down the ramp and engaged when you had collected a decent amount of units .. but gateway units without their upgrades are crap against Terran Barrack units. Zealots need charge to do damage or otherwise they become meat shields for the stalkers who's DPS is lame compared to the Marines and Marauders even without stim. Collosus and Templar are the mainstay of countering Terran Bio. Survive before you get to that and hope like hell you don't fall behind in the Macro game. Good luck in your PvTs. | ||
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HardCorey
United States709 Posts
Heres the Link: HardCorey QuestionTime #11: PvT Dealing with Early MM Pressure with Low APM My Main Thread Hope this Helps, -HardCorey | ||
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Mons1eur
Russian Federation24 Posts
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Babyschwein
Germany33 Posts
Stalkers are nice to pressure an UD, right? And when do I get stalkers vs Protoss? I simply didn't understand that unit... In pvp I always feel, that HIS mass stalkers own the hell out of my sentries/zealots. | ||
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Silmakuoppaanikinko
799 Posts
On December 06 2010 20:29 Babyschwein wrote: Stalkers are what I explained, a unit that does low dps for cost, has 'okay' health, is fast, maneuverable, and can attack both are and ground with a pretty good range. They're pretty all-round, and great when you can micro like a king because they're fast and ranged, but their dps on a-moving is not that impressive.I still don't fully understand the stalker thing. Shall I just ignore them vs T if he doesnt have air-units? DO I Build them to pressure and THEN go zealot/sentry? Stalkers are nice to pressure an UD, right? And when do I get stalkers vs Protoss? I simply didn't understand that unit... In pvp I always feel, that HIS mass stalkers own the hell out of my sentries/zealots. Zealots are the dps backbone of your protoss army, a single zealot significantly out-dps-s a stalker. Well, let me phrase it otherwise how you should think of army comp: The zealot is a very good damage dealer, it's dps for cost is actually significantly higher than such units as thors or battle-cruisers or what not. It comes at a cost though, a zealot is quite slow compared to a lot of units, it's also melee. THe melee part is not only important for reaching your oponent, but once you get there, your zealots clog up behind each other, not all of them can do their high dps if you have a lot of them. That's where the stalker comes in, you get some stalkers in, simply because getting more zealots in wouldn't matter, since they can't all hit anyway, so then get stalkers. If you're confident with your forcefields, then get some sentries with it. Often, a rule of thumb is to get them in 3 : 3 : 1 ratio if you don't have a feeling for which is better. But it's important to see it in reverse, you complement your zealots with stalkers because just continuing to get zealots would mean most couldn't hit and became useless. | ||
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gcoin
United States89 Posts
Trust me, im GcoinProd. | ||
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bigbeau
368 Posts
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MarkIV
12 Posts
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MarkIV
12 Posts
Not getting cyber right as gateway finishes. This was a huge problem for early unit production. Hotkey the Gateway. I usually did this. Now I always do this, usually right as I make it. Keep the early gateways busy. Make something all the time. Focus fire. I still struggle with this, but am getting better. Sentry use, use a FF to cut off the ramp. Try to post units at high ground. Don't poke with my first zeal unless my probe tells me I can. Don't be a whining bitch who blames imbalance for losses and gets BM about it. I was coming off a losing streak that game and felt helpless: you guys have shown me I could improve and it was my fault, not the game's fault. Hard Corey and Jayrod especially helped, extra thanks to them. This thread really turned my attitude about the game around, and brought back my sense of enjoyment, even when I lose. Because now I know I can figure out how to get better, and if all else fails, people here will help even when I don't 100% deserve it. Thanks! So, I had a recent game where I tried to put all the lessons together. It's a PvZ vs a 2200 diamond zerg. I'll post it up here and hope people can tell the difference they helped make in my play: http://www.sc2replayed.com/users/Mark4444 Obviously still a work in progress! Early game still needs work, but better scouting helped me a lot in my build. | ||
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mskaa
Denmark155 Posts
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Sm3agol
United States2055 Posts
Raging at someone for beating your build with his is stupid bm. Scout better. Raging because "x" unit is op is stupid bm. No unit in SC2 is so op that it can't be beaten if used correctly. Raging because you're annoyed with yourself after a loss......a lot better of an attitude. Just don't focus your bm at the game. Things like "marauder is stupidly op omg" GG, glad you could choose T, etc, is just stupid, ill-informed, and makes you a poor loser. Bad bm: GG, good job choosing Terran. Good bm: "LOL DTs, fag." Bad bm focuses on the game. Good bm focuses on the players. Nothing wrong with a little bm. :-D | ||
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bigbeau
368 Posts
On December 06 2010 23:15 Sm3agol wrote: Don't ever rage bm. I see people bm for the lulz a lot on streams and replays, and even though it might not be obvious to the receiver of the bm that it's being done as such, its all about the attitude. Raging at someone for beating your build with his is stupid bm. Scout better. Raging because "x" unit is op is stupid bm. No unit in SC2 is so op that it can't be beaten if used correctly. Raging because you're annoyed with yourself after a loss......a lot better of an attitude. Just don't focus your bm at the game. Things like "marauder is stupidly op omg" GG, glad you could choose T, etc, is just stupid, ill-informed, and makes you a poor loser. Bad bm: GG, good job choosing Terran. Good bm: "LOL DTs, fag." Bad bm focuses on the game. Good bm focuses on the players. Nothing wrong with a little bm. :-D exactly ima dick so i bm quite a bit for the lols tbh. but its not at the game. at any level below gsl neither player has the skill levels to prove or disprove an imbalance. terran is op cuz of bioball until toss finds storm which is now op to terrans until they find emp which is now op to protoss until a certain point when each player realizes how to deal with everything and everyone realizes its not the race; its them as a player thats causing them to lose | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
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Farkinator
United States283 Posts
OKAY HES BUILDING A RAX COOL. That's it. Except for the suicidal Zealot later on. Scouting on 9 is not only to harass, but to see what he's doing. stay longer and you'll see that he gased right after rax. This means one of two things: quick marauders or quick tech. Now, since you only saw one rax with that Zealot of yours (which is still scouting i guess), you can safely assume a concussive expand or 3rax pressure. Both these vary greatly in your supposed response (ESPECIALLY in close positions), and I recommend an observer right after your first gate. Not only does this give you map control, but you can get immortals/collosus later on in the game.Secondly, you never scout his expo either. Suiciding a probe would be great to get SOME information on what on earth is going on. Just because you've scouted once doesn't mean that you're set for the game. This leads to the faulty assumption that he's all-inning you and the subsequent bm. Finally, you should DEFINITELY have more units out than nothing when two marauders arrive. Why don't you have any units? -Zealot before core in PvT this is generally a bad idea -Zealot suicide always a bad idea -Not constantly producing out of non-upgraded gateways. That and the predisposition I have against 9pylon scouting (only do it in certain matchups/maps IE not lost temple) result in your loss to the "early aggression" from the Terran. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
as for my pvt, i try to tech for templar with storm ASAP, so ill throw down a cannon or two at ramp and get only 1 or 2 (usually just 1) sentry before i expand for FF of ramp, and go like 75% lots 25% stalkers until u start popping up HT and ur expo is up, then mix in some more stalkers and a few more sentries. get chargelot upgrade, and with good FF/storm micro u can absolutely rape a bio army. i have to be careful of a banshee rush (throw down a cannon at mineral line) because i get robo core a little later than usual, but this doesnt seem to cause problems very much. when a terran comes a-knocking with his 40-food bioball death army and he sees ur ridiculous small army (as far as he can tell, he's going to try running up your ramp. ff, storm, go counterattack to try to pick off his expo or the new units hes pumping out to replace all the poor little rines/rauders u just popped with storm. also, feedback feedback feedback bye bye medivacs. i dont even waste time trying to feedback ghosts unless hes sacrificing medivacs to get more ghosts, with good positioning EMP is not going to be fucking over your HTs. also good chargelot positioning so when he dances out of ur storm, u have a buttload of chargelots raping his infantry, as opposed to just charging in and getting ur lots buttraped by stim before u even get the first storm off. | ||
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mordk
Chile8385 Posts
On December 06 2010 20:29 Babyschwein wrote: I still don't fully understand the stalker thing. Shall I just ignore them vs T if he doesnt have air-units? DO I Build them to pressure and THEN go zealot/sentry? Stalkers are nice to pressure an UD, right? And when do I get stalkers vs Protoss? I simply didn't understand that unit... In pvp I always feel, that HIS mass stalkers own the hell out of my sentries/zealots. Stalkers are inmensely useful against terran, and they gain a lot when in mass numbers, however, since they aren't particularly tough, nor heavy hitting, they need to be supported in order to abuse their speed and range, which are their main features. As such, when building stalkers against terran they should always, ALWAYS be supported by either zealots or sentries, hopefully both. Zealots are crucial because they tank marauders. Marauders take a very long time to kill zealots, and when under attack by zealots and stalkers, the marauder basically has to choose between attacking zealots and being attacked by stalkers, or attacking stalkers and getting sliced by zealots, in contrast, zealots by themselves get kited eternally by marauders, while stalkers by themselves just die to marauders. Sentries allow you to split marauder armies rather easily, in a way such that you can abuse stalker range to create numerical advantages for your stalkers and thus out-dps a lesser amount of marauders. In this situation one should ideally try to micro the stalkers so they only lose shields, instead of hit points. Against protoss stalkers are also a core unit, since just like marauders, they'll beat both zealot and sentry armies pretty bad. Remember that zealots and sentries are extremely slow compared to the stalker, so mass stalkers can always kite zealot/sentry armies in the same way early stalkers can kill a nearly infinite amount of unstimmed marines just by kiting. I try to get stalkers as soon as possible both in PvP and PvT, many times if I don't see heavy pressure incoming I don't get that first zealot and get 2 gate double stalker for early pressure, works for both terran and protoss. | ||
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Moriarity
United States91 Posts
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vnlegend
United States1389 Posts
The early game what you do is build 1 zealot, the chronoboost a stalker out. Then make a sentry. So you go 1 zealot, 1 stalker, 1 sentry. When he's pressuring with 1 marine 1 marauder, you should have zealot and stalker out already and your 2 units > his 2 units. Then you add more and more sentries (like 3-4) to ForceField the ramp and you're set. | ||
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