• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:58
CEST 19:58
KST 02:58
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call7[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 244ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3
Community News
New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery!8Weekly Cups (August 17-23): Zerg dominate the week0Weekly Cups (August 10-16): SHIN doubles2GSTL Returns in 2026!45Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out7
StarCraft 2
General
SC4ALL II: SC2 Player Announcement 6/8 - Maru How would you feel about frequent/monthly balance patches for SC2? Weekly Cups (August 17-23): Zerg dominate the week Geoff 'iNcontroL' Robinson has passed away GSTL Returns in 2026!
Tourneys
PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WORTEX 2026 - Hungarian SC2 Finals Budapest SC2 AI Tournament 2026 Fall 2026 GSTL Announcement
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 540 Dodge This The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 539 Thunder Dome Mutation # 538 Media Blackout
Brood War
General
New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery! [ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Pros React To: First 'Fastest' Map in ASL History
Tourneys
[ASL22] Wildcard Qualifier [ASL22] Ro24 Group D [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Toronto invitational lan 22 august
Strategy
Replay Review Process - What do you do? Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates Any training maps people recommend?
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Anyone here play Quakeworld back in the day? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Dating: How's your luck? Canadian Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread
Fan Clubs
The Creator Fan Club MarineLorD Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Young Players Exit Esports E…
TrAiDoS
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
Hello guys!
LIN1s
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 3673 users

DreamLeague 11: VP vs LGD Analysis Game 1

Forum Index > The Tavern
Post a Reply
harodihg
Profile Blog Joined November 2013
Japan1344 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-03-23 16:22:03
March 23 2019 16:19 GMT
#1
Preface


VP vs PSG.LGD was one of the seemingly closest matchups in this major with all three games lasting over 40 minutes and the final game resulting in a score of 25-23. Despite this, I'd like to put forth the argument that all three games were pretty thoroughly decided from the drafts alone.




https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/4564903836

[image loading]

On first glance alone it might appear to be an even draft, but in reality I'd say that it's a pretty strong 70-30 outdraft where LGD wins [70% chance LGD wins if both teams play well]. Now to break down what the reasoning is behind this and what lead this to being so.

In DotA you'll typically see a singular hero being a team's "game winning hero" which is often the hero that you'll want to be relatively uncountered as well as being strong against the enemy team's heroes. The team will put focus on enabling this hero and making sure that it has a strong game as their success largely relies on that hero having a good game and strong impact. In this game for LGD that's Spectre and for VP it's fairly split between Troll and Morph (with a bit more emphasis on Morph)

If you break down the draft order you'll see a very clear list of "let's pick X because it counters Y" from both sides. Such as:
  • Grimstroke hardcounters Pango
  • Pugna is strong against Grimstroke, Enigma, and Troll
  • Bane supplies LGD with a means to cancel black hole
  • Ursa is strong against Doom and renders him unable to lane should they be laning against one another
  • Spectre hardcounters Enigma, Grimstroke, and Doom.
  • Troll is strong against Pango and Ursa
  • Morphling is strong against Spectre


You'll notice I used varying terms between hardcounter and 'is strong', this was purposeful. What inevitably happened this game was LGD managed to make it out of the draft with their centerpiece being relatively uncountered while also being a hardcounter to 3/5 of VP's lineup resulting in a fairly clean-cut victory for LGD despite the score, networth, or even overall game appearance seeming even because when push comes to shove Spectre would steamroll them in any fight.

Why is LGD's teamfight so much stronger despite the counters listed and how does Spectre play into this?

The two focal points of what makes LGD so favored are vision and mobility. Spectre counters heroes that are simply immobile and unable to escape the illusion as well as any chasing enemies that are following up during haunt. The threat of playing against Spectre isn't just what lies on the surface, it's the fact that her Desolate reduces vision of enemies by 70% making followup advances from her allies that much more uncountered and potent. For instance, Grimstroke being a counter for Pangolier is reliant upon him landing Soulbind on Pango during his roll to stop him from advancing or Phantom Embrace on him before he starts, but with reduced vision he's all but helpless to actually get his spells off before he's cut down thus giving Pango free roam during a teamfight. Enigma is also particularly susceptible as he's often viewed as a strong counter-initiator with the threat of a blackhole, but Spectre causing so much chaos in a fight and being able to simply instantly get on top of Enigma cancelling his blink or any chance at gaining good positioning he's essentially nullified. These two major components alone let LGD simply wipe half of VP during any given teamfight before picking away at the not-so-mobile Doom and Troll that remain, before finally bringing down the Morph.

+ Show Spoiler +
Might continue with this for games two and three as there's other comparable observations to be made regarding those drafts, but I'm extremely tired right now and leaving this as is.

Fun fact: Doom, Spectre, Enigma, Pugna, and Disruptor were in 2 out of the 3 games.


Hope you enjoyed the read as well as the Major thus far.
Agh's ult sniper: Sniper locks eyes with target unit, immobilizing them in horror as he turns the gun on himself. Channeled, lasts 5 seconds.
Julmust
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Sweden4867 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-03-26 12:23:54
March 26 2019 12:22 GMT
#2
Hey, this is some good stuff. Some quick feedback: would you mind expanding on the hardcounters/is strong against list? You kind of did further down but I'd love to read more about the synergies (as I'm a shitty player and often miss/don't understand these things)

Also, if you're interested in making this a featured article, hit me up. I'd definitely be happy to have it on the FP, with a few tweaks!
AdministratorI'm dancing in the moonlight
Dirkzor
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Denmark1944 Posts
March 27 2019 02:21 GMT
#3
That was interesting. Drafts usually go over my head - most of it anyway.
"HOW THE FUCK ARE YOU ON TOP AGAIN???? HOW DO YOU KEEP DOING THIS????" -Julmust (also, thats what she said)
harodihg
Profile Blog Joined November 2013
Japan1344 Posts
March 27 2019 14:24 GMT
#4
Thanks for the comments, glad you enjoyed it!

And yeah I could expand but those could run into entire articles themselves - I'll try to keep it really plain and simple but when reading just bear with me that it goes WELL beyond just this and that the intricacies aren't exactly listed.

Grimstroke hardcounters Pango

*grim has a targetable silence from high range and his ult also completely stops pango from going anywhere during roll. Not to mention in lane Ink swell lets many carries play aggressively if not outright kill Pango.

Spectre hardcounters Enigma, Grimstroke, and Doom.

*Spectre typically always loses lane much like TB so when you pick it you need to be prepared for that - but if you DO have other heroes/lanes that can sustain losing that lane it's fine. The problem arises when Spectre faces a hero that either has kill potential or can run him down in the jungle. Enigma is a hero that always wins lane but has no real kill potential or run-down potential vs a Spectre. So with that in mind it's essentially just accepting what's happening and playing towards what you can get. Enigma is also EXTREMELY immobile and only really interacts in teamfights with one of two builds: Greaves/pipe/etc. or blink bkb. Spectre counters most blink initiators as haunt cancels blink, but also her vision reduction stops Enigma from effectively being able to walk in and counter-initiate. Her ult also spreads out the teamfight and does massive damage to immobile heroes. With all that in mind Enigma will essentially almost never get a "good" blackhole off and will just be running around pretty uselessly. The same goes for Grimstroke and Doom.

The only real play for an Enigma vs Spectre is to try and get a HoD and early Greaves and try to push down every tower early before Spectre gets farmed. But teams being aware of what Spec does to their lineup, they'll typically have contingency plans in their draft to be able to hold if not fight back.
Agh's ult sniper: Sniper locks eyes with target unit, immobilizing them in horror as he turns the gun on himself. Channeled, lasts 5 seconds.
harodihg
Profile Blog Joined November 2013
Japan1344 Posts
March 27 2019 14:27 GMT
#5
For reference on the nuances: I could probably dig up a few replays and look at the overall networth difference between Spec/Enigma in each game and average that out combined with how they interact in lane, post-lane, and then later on in the game to sort of prove this point. I know Enigma on paper sounds good since you 'win' the lane and he has a big AoE teamfight spell and pure damage, but it's one of those things where once you play it and see how they interact it feels pretty awful. I'm honestly severely surprised teams were even first picking Enigma (granted they moved it to 4 often which helps) considering how many of those games were solid Spectre games yet it remained unpicked.
Agh's ult sniper: Sniper locks eyes with target unit, immobilizing them in horror as he turns the gun on himself. Channeled, lasts 5 seconds.
grizzly110590
Profile Joined September 2019
3 Posts
September 24 2019 18:45 GMT
#6
--- Nuked ---
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
The Patches Monday
16:15
#4
RotterdaM869
TaKeTV 405
TKL 255
IndyStarCraft 217
BRAT_OK 154
SteadfastSC150
ZombieGrub58
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 869
ByuN 418
uThermal 312
TKL 255
IndyStarCraft 217
BRAT_OK 154
SteadfastSC 150
ZombieGrub58
EnDerr 11
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 23162
Shuttle 1078
Jaedong 865
Light 164
Bonyth 135
Rush 100
Dewaltoss 97
Hyun 53
Sexy 46
sorry 24
[ Show more ]
Bale 13
Dota 2
qojqva4723
Counter-Strike
x6flipin906
Other Games
Gorgc4000
Liquid`RaSZi2105
FrodaN1350
singsing818
Beastyqt608
XBOCT452
ArmadaUGS133
KnowMe123
C9.Mang0111
Livibee97
Trikslyr56
QueenE50
Rex39
Chillindude15
MindelVK4
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 51
• Shameless 26
• kabyraGe 18
• Reevou 5
• IndyKCrew
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Pr0nogo 1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos1742
• TFBlade1321
Other Games
• imaqtpie804
• Shiphtur369
Upcoming Events
Afreeca Starleague
16h 3m
Soulkey vs PianO
JyJ vs sSak
GSL
17h 3m
PiGosaur Cup
1d 6h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 16h
Mini vs Calm
Queen vs EffOrt
Replay Cast
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Escore
3 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
3 days
Korean StarCraft League
4 days
[ Show More ]
GSL
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
WardiTV Weekly
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-08-23
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
META DYMY #4

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL Season 22: Qualifier 1
CSL Season 22: Qualifier 2
RSL Revival: Season 6
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026

Upcoming

BSL 2026 LAN: Kraków
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSA
Acropolis #5 - GSB
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Calamity Invitational
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.