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i've only played the game for a few months and i'm currently at 1.5K.
I've read a lot of guides and i've indentified most of my problems.
But, i haven't found the solution to these problems and i need help.
1. How do you counter axe in laning stage as a carry without a proper support?
I know axe destroys pretty much every melee heroes on laning stage (except lifestealer? i'm not sure). So, what if i'm using a short ranged carries like luna or morph and he keeps cutting my creep wave when another hero is with him (it doesn't have to be a support, just someone to keep harrasing me while the axe is tanking the tower or the creeps or both)
2. How to deal with enemies who always diving my tower in the early game trying to kill me?
i don't really have a problem with normal heroes diving the tower. But i struggles when someone tanky like axe, centaur, lv 5 timber, dives me with another heroes. Whether the other one is a support, or a ranged harraser like viper, venomancer, winranger, or even sniper.
3. How to deal with skill spammer supports like cm,silencer,etc when i don't have anything to cancel their clarity?
4. In drafting phase, once i saw a hero as viable in the game, i just kept focusing on picking him and looking for their counters, instead of searching for a better heroes to counter the enemy picks. Is there anyway to get rid of this bad habit?
5. As a mid/carry, when should i rotate to other lanes to help out teammates and when should i just stay and farm?
6. My CS is terrible, i know that and i want to improve it. i saw pro players compensate for their missing cs in lane by farming the jungle while the lane is pushed. However, in my bracket, everyone farms the jungle (even the supposedly supports). How do i deal with it?
7. This one is sort of connected to No.2. How do i mantain the lane equilibrium and good cs when my teammates keeps hitting the creeps (they're not even trying to last hit, they auto attack 95% of the time). I've told them not to auto attack the creeps. If they want the last hit, go take it properly but they won't listen. They don't even use the chat.
That's probably all that i can think of right now. I'm sorry if i made any mistake in my post. Thanks for reading (and helping)!
(Edit : Added question No.7)
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Hello, 3.5k scrub here. I have played the game for a long time (~5k games) and should be probably much higher but my team holds me back and my cat regularly catches fire during games.
No, but, here are my thoughts anyway :
1. How do you counter axe in laning stage as a carry without a proper support?
I know axe destroys pretty much every melee heroes on laning stage (except lifestealer? i'm not sure). So, what if i'm using a short ranged carries like luna or morph and he keeps cutting my creep wave when another hero is with him (it doesn't have to be a support, just someone to keep harrasing me while the axe is tanking the tower or the creeps or both)
You don't. If he tower skips you, the good thing to do is to get a PMS (poor man's shield) and try to tank/kill creeps under your tower. But eventually you'll need backup, especially if they are 2.
If you don't get any backup, just switch lane (go top, or go jungle). Some people really dislike it when the carry switches lane (did you lose the lane??? Axe freefarm??? Nobody safelane??? Why are you here, retard???) but you have to, because your job is to get farmed, no matter what.
Btw, those are very uninformed/clueless reactions meaning they simply don't know better. Do not talk back, nothing you say can appease this kind of player(s), just mute or ignore.
2. How to deal with enemies who always diving my tower in the early game trying to kill me?
i don't really have a problem with normal heroes diving the tower. But i struggles when someone tanky like axe, centaur, lv 5 timber, dives me with another heroes. Whether the other one is a support, or a ranged harraser like viper, venomancer, winranger, or even sniper.
Hmm. Try to juke them, going in the trees, cutting their line of sights, doing circles around the tower, hopefully buying time for them getting targetted and deterred by your tower and/or anyone on your team TP to the tower to help.
A PMS can help here too, you can also consider getting a wand, let the charges pile up and keep them, for when they finally dive you. Then try to turn, with a HP/mana surge, coming from the wand that you will use at the last moment, when they'll commit so hard to try to last hit you. It's not the best though, especially if their heroes do not give many charges (don't cast many spells, like Axe).
If they dive you a lot and nobody on your team reacts (most likely), then again, change lane. Go bottom or go jungle.
3. How to deal with skill spammer supports like cm,silencer,etc when i don't have anything to cancel their clarity?
On your own, with a melee hero ? You can't. I mean you could get a wand and use a lot of potions/tangoes but you're basically just wasting gold on consumables by trying to stay in the lane.
Getting 2v1 on the safelane is the worst case scenario, you are getting shutdown. Ask for a support/jungler/mid/anyone to help, if nothing happens, change lane.
4. In drafting phase, once i saw a hero as viable in the game, i just kept focusing on picking him and looking for their counters, instead of searching for a better heroes to counter the enemy picks. Is there anyway to get rid of this bad habit?
I'm not sure to understand what you are doing. Time and experience will of course lead you to pick better suited heroes. There are many approaches to drafting, do you want to carry the game on your own (...), do you want to counter the other team core(s), do you want to supplement the heroes already picked in your team, to support, to gank, to farm early and be strong later, to go for a push strat...
It's a vast subject. What I will say is that, if you know the safelane will get no support, try to either get a support yourself and be a nice guy OR pick a more ganking heroes instead of the safelane carry, and go and cause chaos in the enemy lines (gank a lot).
People tilt way too easily and way too hard in this game, so if you manage to kill them early, you might just secure a win (if they start flaming each other, it's often half the battle won, maybe more if one goes afk/abandon). It's a sad strategy really, but it does work.
5. As a mid/carry, when should i rotate to other lanes to help out teammates and when should i just stay and farm?
2 ways of doing so : reactive (when the enemy over-extends, ie dives the top tower way too hard), and pro-active (aka you found an invis / dd rune being mid).
Reactive : you react to enemy behaviour. It requires you to have a TP, and be in a somewhat decent shape HP/mana wise. Probably the safest way to rotate. You probably should only go if you know for sure you can kill them, but if you're having a bad lane, and/or you cannot identify if you can or can't for sure kill them, you can still go anyway. At the very least, it will bolster your own team morale ("wow, this guy actually came to help !!! I'll try to help him as well, maybe I don't have only selfish retards on my team this time...")
Pro-active : you go when you feel you have an advantage. Be it rune (invis, dd, haste), powerspike (you just hit 6 and have a good ult), numbers (2 guys want to smoke and you were near), vision of a lone hero (someone warded their jungle and you see one dude low hp), etc.
Results are never guaranteed, so there's always the risk you will not get anything done and lose farming time. But... it's a good thing to try, at least, and with time and experience you will become better at judging if the time is right, or not.
6. My CS is terrible, i know that and i want to improve it. i saw pro players compensate for their missing cs in lane by farming the jungle while the lane is pushed. However, in my bracket, everyone farms the jungle (even the supposedly supports). How do i deal with it?
Get a quelling blade. And... just work on your CS in the lane, first. You can manipulate creep agro, work on your hero animations. But again, if you are 1v2, don't expect to have perfect or even good CS, you are being shutdown. Call backup, change lane, see above...
7. This one is sort of connected to No.2. How do i mantain the lane equilibrium and good cs when my teammates keeps hitting the creeps (they're not even trying to last hit, they auto attack 95% of the time). I've told them not to auto attack the creeps. If they want the last hit, go take it properly but they won't listen. They don't even use the chat.
You don't. Just try to take last hit in the mess. Quelling blade, ring of aquila, phase boots... all those early game items will give you a higher attack dmg and improve your window for last hitting. You can also use your spells to get last hits. It's really bad but... at least you're getting last hits.
I'd like to add a few things :
- you're basically in the MMR jungle. It's nonsensical, so don't try to theorycraft too hard. That said, the enemy team is probably just as bad as yours, so, even if you're having a really bad laning phase (say, you got crushed the first 10 minutes), do not give up yet. Try to salvage what you can in terms of farm. And try to get kills.
Because kills on the enemy team, when they are ahead, will give you massive chunks of gold. So you (and your team) can totally make a comeback after a good teamfight or two.
In other words, it's not the end of the world/game if you're having a bad start. There are comebacks mechanics in the game, keep that in mind and play to their strengths!
- go and watch day9 learns dota with pudge. They cover everything in depth 
- watch bulldog/waga streams, they are good and often comment on their plays/choices. You'll learn things, even if the players are not 1.5k. Singsing is also a good watch, he roams a lot, that gives a new angle of approach of the game (see above, causing chaos in the enemy lines), or "how to still get gold and have impact without a lane".
- oh, I made a lame-ass guide on "how to get from 2.5 to 3.5k", it's... not the best, and mostly about communication, but here goes : http://www.liquiddota.com/blogs/520916-guide-from-26k-to-36k
GL!
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First of all, thanks a lot for the quick and detailed reply! :D
it's my first time going to forums, i'm sorry if my post is messed up. But i'll try to organize it as much as i can
You don't. If he tower skips you, the good thing to do is to get a PMS (poor man's shield) and try to tank/kill creeps under your tower. But eventually you'll need backup, especially if they are 2.
If you don't get any backup, just switch lane (go top, or go jungle). Some people really dislike it when the carry switches lane (did you lose the lane??? Axe freefarm??? Nobody safelane??? Why are you here, retard???) but you have to, because your job is to get farmed, no matter what.
Btw, those are very uninformed/clueless reactions meaning they simply don't know better. Do not talk back, nothing you say can appease this kind of player(s), just mute or ignore.
Hmm. Try to juke them, going in the trees, cutting their line of sights, doing circles around the tower, hopefully buying time for them getting targetted and deterred by your tower and/or anyone on your team TP to the tower to help.
A PMS can help here too, you can also consider getting a wand, let the charges pile up and keep them, for when they finally dive you. Then try to turn, with a HP/mana surge, coming from the wand that you will use at the last moment, when they'll commit so hard to try to last hit you. It's not the best though, especially if their heroes do not give many charges (don't cast many spells, like Axe).
If they dive you a lot and nobody on your team reacts (most likely), then again, change lane. Go bottom or go jungle.
Thanks for the insight!
I have never thought about changing lanes...I usually picks carry because i don't trust my team to carry (i loses a lot when playing supports). But somehow i've never been selfish enough to force my team to change the lane :/. I'll do it when i'm having a hard time in my future games.
On your own, with a melee hero ? You can't. I mean you could get a wand and use a lot of potions/tangoes but you're basically just wasting gold on consumables by trying to stay in the lane.
Getting 2v1 on the safelane is the worst case scenario, you are getting shutdown. Ask for a support/jungler/mid/anyone to help, if nothing happens, change lane.
Not only melees, i could be using ranged heroes but still can't risk getting close to those kind of supports if they have someone who can kill me quickly with them (like jug, ursa). For example, i was using gyro with spectre as my lane mate. I was up against silencer and jug. silencer kept using arcane curse and he bought like 6 clarities. i tried my best to missile him but i got caught 3/6 times and spectre can't do anything in the early game.
I'm not sure to understand what you are doing. Time and experience will of course lead you to pick better suited heroes. There are many approaches to drafting, do you want to carry the game on your own (...), do you want to counter the other team core(s), do you want to supplement the heroes already picked in your team, to support, to gank, to farm early and be strong later, to go for a push strat...
It's a vast subject. What I will say is that, if you know the safelane will get no support, try to either get a support yourself and be a nice guy OR pick a more ganking heroes instead of the safelane carry, and go and cause chaos in the enemy lines (gank a lot).
People tilt way too easily and way too hard in this game, so if you manage to kill them early, you might just secure a win (if they start flaming each other, it's often half the battle won, maybe more if one goes afk/abandon). It's a sad strategy really, but it does work.
I'm sorry if i wsn't clear on this part. For example, I just won dominantly using OD. The next game, if i see the first 2 enemy picks are countered by OD,whether it's soft or hard. I'll just look at the other pick as "This hero can counter OD or not" instead of "OD can counter this hero or not" or "Is OD suitable for my team or not" (in case we don't have mid).
I don't know about being a roaming support. I've tried doing it using MK a lot of times in unranked but i always got so far behind everyone in the game that it's not even fun anymore. I'll try watching the ones you suggested for more information regarding this.
2 ways of doing so : reactive (when the enemy over-extends, ie dives the top tower way too hard), and pro-active (aka you found an invis / dd rune being mid).
Reactive : you react to enemy behaviour. It requires you to have a TP, and be in a somewhat decent shape HP/mana wise. Probably the safest way to rotate. You probably should only go if you know for sure you can kill them, but if you're having a bad lane, and/or you cannot identify if you can or can't for sure kill them, you can still go anyway. At the very least, it will bolster your own team morale ("wow, this guy actually came to help !!! I'll try to help him as well, maybe I don't have only selfish retards on my team this time...")
Pro-active : you go when you feel you have an advantage. Be it rune (invis, dd, haste), powerspike (you just hit 6 and have a good ult), numbers (2 guys want to smoke and you were near), vision of a lone hero (someone warded their jungle and you see one dude low hp), etc.
Results are never guaranteed, so there's always the risk you will not get anything done and lose farming time. But... it's a good thing to try, at least, and with time and experience you will become better at judging if the time is right, or not.
I almost always rotate when i got dd, invis, or haste. My problem is the reactive rotating part since i'm always not sure whether it's worth it to leave farm to fight (and probably die).
Get a quelling blade. And... just work on your CS in the lane, first. You can manipulate creep agro, work on your hero animations. But again, if you are 1v2, don't expect to have perfect or even good CS, you are being shutdown. Call backup, change lane, see above...
I always buy quelling blade on melee carries/mids. Is that a good habit?
I'd like to add a few things : - you're basically in the MMR jungle. It's nonsensical, so don't try to theorycraft too hard. That said, the enemy team is probably just as bad as yours, so, even if you're having a really bad laning phase (say, you got crushed the first 10 minutes), do not give up yet. Try to salvage what you can in terms of farm. And try to get kills. Because kills on the enemy team, when they are ahead, will give you massive chunks of gold. So you (and your team) can totally make a comeback after a good teamfight or two. In other words, it's not the end of the world/game if you're having a bad start. There are comebacks mechanics in the game, keep that in mind and play to their strengths! - go and watch day9 learns dota with pudge. They cover everything in depth - watch bulldog/waga streams, they are good and often comment on their plays/choices. You'll learn things, even if the players are not 1.5k. Singsing is also a good watch, he roams a lot, that gives a new angle of approach of the game (see above, causing chaos in the enemy lines), or "how to still get gold and have impact without a lane". - oh, I made a lame-ass guide on "how to get from 2.5 to 3.5k", it's... not the best, and mostly about communication, but here goes : http://www.liquiddota.com/blogs/520916-guide-from-26k-to-36kGL!
-I've never given up on a game,any game. So i don't think being behind affects me that much unless i'm on a losing streak.
-I watch bulldog and singsing's videos on youtube quite often. I remember people mentioning waga a lot but always forgot to watch his streams since i don't open twitch that much. I've also starting to watch purge's recent videos and going to watch the "old but probably still relevant" videos
-I've read your blogs first before i even posted this thread XD. One day i was looking around liquiddota then saw the blogs and i was like "there's blogs!? let me check it then" then i saw your post and started reading it. and then i started following your advices and it worked out pretty good so far.
Thanks!
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What server are you playing in? If it's SEA, we can play together. I'm playing support so i can babysit you until late game when I hope you can protect me. At least you won't have shitty games.
Anyway, for question no 4, drafting, there are lots of programs you can download to simulate the drafts. I used "easy pick" for android when I started to play dota. Sure it's not perfect but it helps a lot.
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No probs
I think your posts are quite clean for first timers, too. I mean, they are as clean as they get!
Thanks for the insight!
I have never thought about changing lanes...I usually picks carry because i don't trust my team to carry (i loses a lot when playing supports). But somehow i've never been selfish enough to force my team to change the lane :/. I'll do it when i'm having a hard time in my future games.
Yes, or going to jungle. Changing lane can be a tough one mostly because of the flame/rage of your team-mates. In theory it's the way to go, in practice... it can get messy. At least you know there's the option now.
Not only melees, i could be using ranged heroes but still can't risk getting close to those kind of supports if they have someone who can kill me quickly with them (like jug, ursa). For example, i was using gyro with spectre as my lane mate. I was up against silencer and jug. silencer kept using arcane curse and he bought like 6 clarities. i tried my best to missile him but i got caught 3/6 times and spectre can't do anything in the early game.
Yes, well, it basically works with ranged hero too. Few cores can hold their own and "do well" in a 1v2, this is why they often get a support because... well, they are weak early game. Medusa is not bad... it mostly comes down to how good they are and how much you can outplay them. But if you're all at a similar level, then... you're basically screwed.
Or just pick an offlaner (and play it in the safelane), that could work too. Clock, centaur, weaver... I mean, at least you can get some farm despite being in a 1v2.
I'm sorry if i wsn't clear on this part. For example, I just won dominantly using OD. The next game, if i see the first 2 enemy picks are countered by OD,whether it's soft or hard. I'll just look at the other pick as "This hero can counter OD or not" instead of "OD can counter this hero or not" or "Is OD suitable for my team or not" (in case we don't have mid).
I don't know about being a roaming support. I've tried doing it using MK a lot of times in unranked but i always got so far behind everyone in the game that it's not even fun anymore. I'll try watching the ones you suggested for more information regarding this.
It's still not crystal clear for me but if your OD can counter 2 of their heroes, and do reasonably well in your lineup then I'd say go for it. The drafting part is quite complicated imo, so I'm not sure how to explain it. I mean... I'm not qualified first, and it's a very deep subject, too.
Your approach looks decent to me.
As for the roaming part, yes it's tricky. Singsing makes it look easy, but in fact it's quite difficult because it requires you to know what you can/can't get out with, grabbing farm on the way, etc. It's not unusual to end up with no farm and no XP and wondering why the fuck did you even try to roam.
Maybe MK is not the easiest hero for that, especially now with 7.05 early game focused nerfs. And even before those nerfs, you may end up spending too much time on trees, gathering intelligence that your team will not use anyway. Tusk, Spirit Breaker, Vengeful Spirit, Riki... would probably be more straight forward. But yes, there's a balance between roaming/farming, and... well, it's not always the safest/easiest move to pull out, as it requires some awareness from your team, too. But that's an option.
Maybe the easiest/safest move is to actually pick a jungler. Get farm, and go gank/roam when you hit powerspikes, if nothing happens, go back to jungle. Bloodcyka is a good one. Axe too. I find LC to be pretty strong too, despite all the flames that a LC jungle generally induces.
I almost always rotate when i got dd, invis, or haste. My problem is the reactive rotating part since i'm always not sure whether it's worth it to leave farm to fight (and probably die).
Yeah. Well, as a core and if you have a good time, it's generally not a good idea to rotate, early. But, if you think that you can turn the fight, and have a TP off cd, and have decent HP/mana, it's worth a try. Be it only for the morale boost part of it, and you also learn by... trying (which includes failing ).
I always buy quelling blade on melee carries/mids. Is that a good habit?
I'd say it is. You can't really go wrong with quelling blade and PMS on melee cores.
Overall I think the communication is pretty important. If you and your team can communicate like human beings, it's a very strong asset already, which often can lead you to overcome unfavourable drafts or bad laning phases. The comeback mechanics are real.
So again, GL, and have fun aswell, people tend to forget that aspect in ranked, but it does contribute too ^^
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On April 10 2017 14:20 RandomAnon wrote:
6. My CS is terrible, i know that and i want to improve it. i saw pro players compensate for their missing cs in lane by farming the jungle while the lane is pushed. However, in my bracket, everyone farms the jungle (even the supposedly supports). How do i deal with it?
7. This one is sort of connected to No.2. How do i mantain the lane equilibrium and good cs when my teammates keeps hitting the creeps (they're not even trying to last hit, they auto attack 95% of the time). I've told them not to auto attack the creeps. If they want the last hit, go take it properly but they won't listen. They don't even use the chat.
Practice, practice, practice. Go to bot games or practice lobby and just CS up to 10 mins with 0 items. It's boring but getting fundamental mechanics is the "easiest" way to improve in the beginning.
With regards to overcoming difficult lanes, it'll take time to understand different lane matchups. Some matchups are inherently disfavoured at lvl 2-3, but can quickly change. The issue is that without a lot of experience you end up taking punishment for no trade off and failing to capitalize on when they overextend. E.g. You take damage and dont get CS for it, or you try to deny and take 3-4 hits when you shouldn't have done it.
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On April 10 2017 17:03 brinepumps wrote:
What server are you playing in? If it's SEA, we can play together. I'm playing support so i can babysit you until late game when I hope you can protect me. At least you won't have shitty games.
Anyway, for question no 4, drafting, there are lots of programs you can download to simulate the drafts. I used "easy pick" for android when I started to play dota. Sure it's not perfect but it helps a lot.
Yea i'm from SEA. I appriciate the help! My ID is 252292033. or i can add you instead. I still haven't tried to add anyone since my account has become non-limited.
I've seen a lot of apps and sites like that. i'll try using them sometimes. Though it would be better if i can know the reasoning behind picks but i'll learn slowly i guess.
On April 10 2017 17:27 Murlox wrote:Show nested quote +Yes, well, it basically works with ranged hero too. Few cores can hold their own and "do well" in a 1v2, this is why they often get a support because... well, they are weak early game. Medusa is not bad... it mostly comes down to how good they are and how much you can outplay them. But if you're all at a similar level, then... you're basically screwed.
Or just pick an offlaner (and play it in the safelane), that could work too. Clock, centaur, weaver... I mean, at least you can get some farm despite being in a 1v2. yeah, i've used weaver a lot in my games. One question though, in high level games, where does necro fit in? He's tanky like an offlaner (or he's regening fast i guess), He can harass the opposing laner quite efficiently, but he sort of need items like dagon to reach his max potential so he's like a core. Then people in my games treated necro like a support which in my opinion isn't as good since he won't benefit from his regen passive. What do you think? Show nested quote +It's still not crystal clear for me but if your OD can counter 2 of their heroes, and do reasonably well in your lineup then I'd say go for it. The drafting part is quite complicated imo, so I'm not sure how to explain it. I mean... I'm not qualified first, and it's a very deep subject, too.
Your approach looks decent to me.
As for the roaming part, yes it's tricky. Singsing makes it look easy, but in fact it's quite difficult because it requires you to know what you can/can't get out with, grabbing farm on the way, etc. It's not unusual to end up with no farm and no XP and wondering why the fuck did you even try to roam.
Maybe MK is not the easiest hero for that, especially now with 7.05 early game focused nerfs. And even before those nerfs, you may end up spending too much time on trees, gathering intelligence that your team will not use anyway. Tusk, Spirit Breaker, Vengeful Spirit, Riki... would probably be more straight forward. But yes, there's a balance between roaming/farming, and... well, it's not always the safest/easiest move to pull out, as it requires some awareness from your team, too. But that's an option.
Maybe the easiest/safest move is to actually pick a jungler. Get farm, and go gank/roam when you hit powerspikes, if nothing happens, go back to jungle. Bloodcyka is a good one. Axe too. I find LC to be pretty strong too, despite all the flames that a LC jungle generally induces. Yeah, when comes the time for me to roam, i'll probably just use blyatcyka, LC or axe since i'm still on lower mmr Show nested quote +Yeah. Well, as a core and if you have a good time, it's generally not a good idea to rotate, early. But, if you think that you can turn the fight, and have a TP off cd, and have decent HP/mana, it's worth a try. Be it only for the morale boost part of it, and you also learn by... trying (which includes failing ). I see. So in that case, i should just farm my lane and try to split push right? Show nested quote +Overall I think the communication is pretty important. If you and your team can communicate like human beings, it's a very strong asset already, which often can lead you to overcome unfavourable drafts or bad laning phases. The comeback mechanics are real.
So again, GL, and have fun aswell, people tend to forget that aspect in ranked, but it does contribute too ^^ Thanks once again ^^. I'll try to comunicate even better with my team.
On April 10 2017 17:56 Baggage wrote:
Practice, practice, practice. Go to bot games or practice lobby and just CS up to 10 mins with 0 items. It's boring but getting fundamental mechanics is the "easiest" way to improve in the beginning.
With regards to overcoming difficult lanes, it'll take time to understand different lane matchups. Some matchups are inherently disfavoured at lvl 2-3, but can quickly change. The issue is that without a lot of experience you end up taking punishment for no trade off and failing to capitalize on when they overextend. E.g. You take damage and dont get CS for it, or you try to deny and take 3-4 hits when you shouldn't have done it.
I'll allocate more time training cs then. I heard the max you can get from lane alone is 70/ 10 mins. Is it right?
and Thanks! i just realized my problem. I kept doing unfavouable trades. I'll try reducing the amount of bad trades i made as much as possible.
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yeah, i've used weaver a lot in my games. One question though, in high level games, where does necro fit in?
I don't know about high level games. Necro is still used as a support in 3.5k.
He's tanky like an offlaner (or he's regening fast i guess), He can harass the opposing laner quite efficiently, but he sort of need items like dagon to reach his max potential so he's like a core. Then people in my games treated necro like a support which in my opinion isn't as good since he won't benefit from his regen passive. What do you think?
I often hear people (mostly casters / "analysts") say that necro should be core and nothing else. What I do see though, in my games at least, is that necro will get farm anyway because his ult nets him the last hit on heroes, if he plays it semi-decently. So even/despite being played as a support, he still gets his farm.
The added death time is a huge pain too. Very cancerous hero no doubt, I still wouldn't play him in the safelane (I just think it's safer to go for a right clicker - physical DPS hero, in general), but it could work (if you already have plenty of said physical DPS in other lanes, for instance!)
I see. So in that case, i should just farm my lane and try to split push right?
Its the safer thing to do. Going to the fight, turning the gank, saving your allies and/or getting hero kills can be better, but its riskier too. If you go and succeed, you will not only gain gold, but also make the enemy lose gold, open the map for push, get a positive "helpful" vibe going. If you go and fail, well you just lost gold, and more gold (farming time), fed your enemy, opened your lane, wasted a TP cd...
If you can get a tower instead, I guess just go and do that (but do get the tower). It's hard to be definitive here, depends on the situation really!
Thanks once again ^^. I'll try to comunicate even better with my team.
Cheers
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One comment; don't pick dedicated junglers. I think it will really stunt your laning and hurt you overall as a dota player. You might reach 3K by just iron taloning jungling LC or LS but you're not going to figure out how lanes really work and how to draft to win your lanes.
The absolute max CS just in lane is 78 by 10 mins (4 creeps at the x:00 and x:30 marks, plus a siege creep on 3:30 and 7:00. It's not 82 since the 10:00 wave won't be there yet).
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On April 10 2017 21:45 Murlox wrote:Show nested quote +I don't know about high level games. Necro is still used as a support in 3.5k.
I often hear people (mostly casters / "analysts") say that necro should be core and nothing else. What I do see though, in my games at least, is that necro will get farm anyway because his ult nets him the last hit on heroes, if he plays it semi-decently. So even/despite being played as a support, he still gets his farm. I see, Thanks for the info! Well, his theme IS around disease. So, it's no wonder he's cancerous XD Show nested quote +I still wouldn't play him in the safelane (I just think it's safer to go for a right clicker - physical DPS hero, in general), but it could work (if you already have plenty of said physical DPS in other lanes, for instance!) Yeah, i thought about the same thing. That's why i'm thinking about him as an offlaner since he can have a lot of impact in games with just a dagon (at the least). Since he can get someone out of the fight much more efficiently than doom or rupture. Show nested quote +Its the safer thing to do. Going to the fight, turning the gank, saving your allies and/or getting hero kills can be better, but its riskier too. If you go and succeed, you will not only gain gold, but also make the enemy lose gold, open the map for push, get a positive "helpful" vibe going. If you go and fail, well you just lost gold, and more gold (farming time), fed your enemy, opened your lane, wasted a TP cd...
If you can get a tower instead, I guess just go and do that (but do get the tower). It's hard to be definitive here, depends on the situation really! I had a game that i don't understand a few hours ago. I'm going to send the match ID here to ask for a short rewiew on what should i do. Your help will be much appriciated :D
On April 11 2017 00:56 schmitty9800 wrote:
One comment; don't pick dedicated junglers. I think it will really stunt your laning and hurt you overall as a dota player. You might reach 3K by just iron taloning jungling LC or LS but you're not going to figure out how lanes really work and how to draft to win your lanes.
The absolute max CS just in lane is 78 by 10 mins (4 creeps at the x:00 and x:30 marks, plus a siege creep on 3:30 and 7:00. It's not 82 since the 10:00 wave won't be there yet).
Yeah, that's what i not want to happen since i want to improve. Thanks for the info!
My last games
3110336769 LC offlane
I don't know what i should've done at the point when the bane starts rotating and made a lot of mistakes which led to the loss. Had a bit of fight with silencer since he keeps asking "who fed slark" when me and veno were having a great time in the early game. So i thought it was the LD's fault that the bane and undying got out of control. and since they're duo queing, silencer helps the LD and then the fight happen. Was i wrong? I'll be happy to acknowledge it if it's my mistake.
3110417453 Slark safelane
I had a terrible laning phase. Anything i can do instead of what i did in the game?
I "sort of" blames invoker not for not calling missing, but for not using the space created by my deaths from qop's rotations to push the mid so the qop won't rotate anymore. I don't know...
and also, what should i do instead when i tried to man up against WK in the late game and died stupidly(twice or thrice i think, i don't remember it quite clearly)
I know it sounds like i'm always blaming people for my losses, but the ones that i don't are mostly because of my CS problems so the solution is simple. What i want to ask by posting my replays is what to do when one of my teammates messed up and they let a snowballing heroes to snowball.
Btw, i just remembered one confusing moment for me from pro games
How can someone go from almost dying to almost full hp without bloodstone suicide on their team? I saw this happens a lot in pro games. The ones that i still remember is secret vs empire from ESL One Manila game 2 where the spectre came from almost dying to almost full hp. and i don't see any illusions so i assume he didn't manage to activate haunt and swap with the illusion before got caught by blackhole.
Thanks!
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3110417453 Slark safelane
Just looking at the scoreboard (which is not always telling), I will say this :
- the scores are very even ;
- invoker looks like he did OK, good hero dmg, good KDA, good building dmg ;
- each team warded a lot (60 sentries each...wow), which is surprising, and good ;
- their lineup look much stronger lategame than yours, to me. Basically you're the only initiator/tank of your team.
- where is your BKB? Their lineup screams "get a bkb", and given your lineup, you're likely to be quite exposed when you open on someone... Also you will not be able to teamfight without a BKB in this game. I would go something like Power Treads -> Shadow Blade -> Echo Sabre -> Silver Edge -> Basher -> BKB -> etc. Maybe get it earlier (after echo), depends on the general situation (are you getting pushed heavily, or not).
- if you look at the scores, the only people with positive KDA on this game are the ones that got a BKB ;
- get a BKB!
Watching the first 10 minutes :
- minute 0 : good starting items
- minute 2 : your positioning in lane is CRAZY and BAD. You are begging to getting destroyed or even killed with that positioning. In a 2v2 like that, you don't want to ever walk to a creep and hit it. Nyx can easily read your movement, stun you, necro spam you, it's terrible.
What you want to do is walk near the creeps, then right click on one enemy hero. It will "pull" the creep wave to you. Then immediately walk back. You want to do that repeatedly, so that the creep wave gets closer to you and further away from them. Then you can last hit. I believe Day9 learns dota with Purge addressed this issue/technique in the first episodes. It's a very important thing to do, otherwise you get harassed, lose way too many HP way too early, then you can't lane anymore (what happened in your lane, 1 minute in).
You had the good reaction to buy a salve, but you let the courier walk to your lane without it. Just re-route it back to grab your item aswelll the next time, it's much better than you having to walk back all the way to base (missing so much XP and potential last hits).
- minute 4 : nice TP back on the shrine for the bounty. Nice kill on nyx and then on necro. Maybe a bit too aggressive on the chase, for necro. I would have just salved and go for last hits instead (like your ogre did, he stayed for last hits).
- minute 6 : yeah unfortunate gank from qop. You never saw it coming. In fact, your lane is the only lane without any ward (top lane has 2 wards up, mid has 1 ward, yours has... nothing). This is not your fault, this is not "your job", but... this is something you can still fix anyway. Just buy a ward and put it here :
![[image loading]](https://tof.cx/images/2017/04/11/c8ed83aa43cb35fb8e5355df535bfd96.png)
It "covers" the lane pretty well. You would have seen qop lingering about with a haste, with that ward.
Regarding the miss call, or lack of it, I mean... I do believe "miss calls" are mostly an excuse, and a bad one (inflammatory), in the end. Would you have played differently knowing that qop was missing? Probably not, you were already under your tower anyway. Would you play differently knowing that "mid is missing" "mid is missing" "mid has returned" "mid is missing"... I'm not sure. I believe that those are half-information, and unless you're getting a proper "mid is missing, he has rune, heading bot, be careful", they are basically useless. And you can't control the quality of the miss calls done by your team-mates. A ward on the other hand, is something YOU can fix, and would have given you all the information you need. Maybe even set you up for a turn, if your team sees 3 people lurking in the woods, one is more inclined to TP and try to turn the fight. Vision advantage.
- minute 9 : second qop gank, same deal. That ward would have given you the info.
Besides, your last hitting is awful. You are just attacking creeps for seemingly no reason. This is not what you want to do!! Ideally, you don't want to even touch the creeps, just to land ONE HIT, the last hit, and that's it. Rest of the time you should care about your surroundings, pull the creepwave to you, attack your own creeps to weaken/deny them...
You really have to try to get EVERY last hits, it's a massive gold surge. Look at the streams, the guys are mad at themselves when they miss one last hit (sure, they overdo it a little bit for entertainment but... the idea stands). You want to get all the last hits. This is what early game is about for a core in the safelane, getting all the last hits in your lane. Nothing else.
Getting kills is nice ofc, but its often not guaranteed so... last hits should have priority, if you have any doubts. Let your support do the harass job, you focus on last hits (it seems the position are almost reversed in this game, where you chase necro for instance while ogre just focus on LH). Yes, your ogre is not the best at harassing, but to be fair, you're wasting last hits so... I sort of understand how he would stay and "not waste" gold, by getting the last hits himself.
- minute 10 : the lane is somewhat empty, it's your chance to get last hits in peace. You miss way too many of them, and you attack the creeps way too much.
Moments later, you even go for a try on necro, under his tower, again leaving some creeps behind. And almost die to a qop turn.
Ok I'm going to stop here. Work on your lane aggro (pull the wave to you), focus on last hitting and nothing else, get a ward if you don't have one, and... that's it
Minute 11:31, you have 27 last hits, including the small camp you farmed. This is terrible! Aim to have ~50 lane creeps last hits at minute 10, and nothing else.
Your games will change a lot if you manage to secure early farm.
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There are many thins that come from just playing the game, im not sure i would go into details because most of whats been written here is really well done and its good
but in terms of CS, thats one thing you can practice, a lot of shit like map awareness, timings, realizing ganks, heros not being shown, etc... its all about playing the game but CS is all about practice, bot games are great and help tremendously.
Play the game but also get some practice, knowing when a hit will actually kill a creep and not leave it at 10hp for you to miss the last hit its something you must learn
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Sorry for the late replies!
On April 11 2017 15:05 Murlox wrote:3110417453 Slark safelane Just looking at the scoreboard (which is not always telling), I will say this : - the scores are very even ; - invoker looks like he did OK, good hero dmg, good KDA, good building dmg ; - each team warded a lot (60 sentries each...wow), which is surprising, and good ; - their lineup look much stronger lategame than yours, to me. Basically you're the only initiator/tank of your team. - where is your BKB? Their lineup screams "get a bkb", and given your lineup, you're likely to be quite exposed when you open on someone... Also you will not be able to teamfight without a BKB in this game. I would go something like Power Treads -> Shadow Blade -> Echo Sabre -> Silver Edge -> Basher -> BKB -> etc. Maybe get it earlier (after echo), depends on the general situation (are you getting pushed heavily, or not). - if you look at the scores, the only people with positive KDA on this game are the ones that got a BKB ; - get a BKB! Watching the first 10 minutes :- minute 0 : good starting items - minute 2 : your positioning in lane is CRAZY and BAD. You are begging to getting destroyed or even killed with that positioning. In a 2v2 like that, you don't want to ever walk to a creep and hit it. Nyx can easily read your movement, stun you, necro spam you, it's terrible. What you want to do is walk near the creeps, then right click on one enemy hero. It will "pull" the creep wave to you. Then immediately walk back. You want to do that repeatedly, so that the creep wave gets closer to you and further away from them. Then you can last hit. I believe Day9 learns dota with Purge addressed this issue/technique in the first episodes. It's a very important thing to do, otherwise you get harassed, lose way too many HP way too early, then you can't lane anymore (what happened in your lane, 1 minute in). You had the good reaction to buy a salve, but you let the courier walk to your lane without it. Just re-route it back to grab your item aswelll the next time, it's much better than you having to walk back all the way to base (missing so much XP and potential last hits). - minute 4 : nice TP back on the shrine for the bounty. Nice kill on nyx and then on necro. Maybe a bit too aggressive on the chase, for necro. I would have just salved and go for last hits instead (like your ogre did, he stayed for last hits). - minute 6 : yeah unfortunate gank from qop. You never saw it coming. In fact, your lane is the only lane without any ward (top lane has 2 wards up, mid has 1 ward, yours has... nothing). This is not your fault, this is not "your job", but... this is something you can still fix anyway. Just buy a ward and put it here : It "covers" the lane pretty well. You would have seen qop lingering about with a haste, with that ward. Regarding the miss call, or lack of it, I mean... I do believe "miss calls" are mostly an excuse, and a bad one (inflammatory), in the end. Would you have played differently knowing that qop was missing? Probably not, you were already under your tower anyway. Would you play differently knowing that "mid is missing" "mid is missing" "mid has returned" "mid is missing"... I'm not sure. I believe that those are half-information, and unless you're getting a proper " mid is missing, he has rune, heading bot, be careful", they are basically useless. And you can't control the quality of the miss calls done by your team-mates. A ward on the other hand, is something YOU can fix, and would have given you all the information you need. Maybe even set you up for a turn, if your team sees 3 people lurking in the woods, one is more inclined to TP and try to turn the fight. Vision advantage. - minute 9 : second qop gank, same deal. That ward would have given you the info. Besides, your last hitting is awful. You are just attacking creeps for seemingly no reason. This is not what you want to do!! Ideally, you don't want to even touch the creeps, just to land ONE HIT, the last hit, and that's it. Rest of the time you should care about your surroundings, pull the creepwave to you, attack your own creeps to weaken/deny them... You really have to try to get EVERY last hits, it's a massive gold surge. Look at the streams, the guys are mad at themselves when they miss one last hit (sure, they overdo it a little bit for entertainment but... the idea stands). You want to get all the last hits. This is what early game is about for a core in the safelane, getting all the last hits in your lane. Nothing else. Getting kills is nice ofc, but its often not guaranteed so... last hits should have priority, if you have any doubts. Let your support do the harass job, you focus on last hits (it seems the position are almost reversed in this game, where you chase necro for instance while ogre just focus on LH). Yes, your ogre is not the best at harassing, but to be fair, you're wasting last hits so... I sort of understand how he would stay and "not waste" gold, by getting the last hits himself. - minute 10 : the lane is somewhat empty, it's your chance to get last hits in peace. You miss way too many of them, and you attack the creeps way too much. Moments later, you even go for a try on necro, under his tower, again leaving some creeps behind. And almost die to a qop turn. Ok I'm going to stop here. Work on your lane aggro (pull the wave to you), focus on last hitting and nothing else, get a ward if you don't have one, and... that's it Minute 11:31, you have 27 last hits, including the small camp you farmed. This is terrible! Aim to have ~50 lane creeps last hits at minute 10, and nothing else. Your games will change a lot if you manage to secure early farm.
Thank you very much for the very detailed review!
I've done your suggestions and it worked out wonders! I've gotten about 40-60 CS/10 min
One question though, is it still worth it to get hit once (just once) when you're trying to aggro the creeps when using melee heroes? I sometimes can't aggro the creeps because the ranged enemies are standing right next to their creeps so if i wanted to aggro the creeps,i'd get hit at least once (i heard somewhere the aggro range is 500 to the creeps. Is that right?)
On April 11 2017 21:44 Faruko wrote:There are many thins that come from just playing the game, im not sure i would go into details because most of whats been written here is really well done and its good but in terms of CS, thats one thing you can practice, a lot of shit like map awareness, timings, realizing ganks, heros not being shown, etc... its all about playing the game but CS is all about practice, bot games are great and help tremendously. Play the game but also get some practice, knowing when a hit will actually kill a creep and not leave it at 10hp for you to miss the last hit its something you must learn
Thank you for the answer!
I'm still having trouble setting up the private lobby though. I've been trying the mid SF challange with no items but i can't aggro the creeps since there's no enemies. If i were to set the bots on "passive" difficulty, the bots will still autoattack the creeps. Is there anyway i can set the bots to not do anything but i can see them so i can aggro the creeps or am i not supposed to aggro the creeps on the challange?
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SEA? its a hell in sea hahaha.. u want to raise mmr? no other choice just stick to 1 2 carry hero
my friend just play 2 hero Void / AM ..but mostly Void
from 3.0 to 4.8 now.
Me on the other hand still stuck at my 3.5..best is 4.1k .. i only play support in mmr but i might follow my friend by just playing void. Its not easy thou..need a good lasthit/deny especially when your lane are hard
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Thank you very much for the very detailed review!
I've done your suggestions and it worked out wonders! I've gotten about 40-60 CS/10 min
One question though, is it still worth it to get hit once (just once) when you're trying to aggro the creeps when using melee heroes? I sometimes can't aggro the creeps because the ranged enemies are standing right next to their creeps so if i wanted to aggro the creeps,i'd get hit at least once (i heard somewhere the aggro range is 500 to the creeps. Is that right?)
Nice, 40 is ok, 60 is good
Yes it is fine to get hit to do the "aggro-trick" (afaik, it is indeed 500 range from enemy creeps), this is also why you get a PMS and a set of tango, to deal with some of the necessary hits you'll take.
Some hits are fine. Just be careful not to get stunned/combo'd, you want to remain somewhat healthy so that you can stay in lane, and get last hits/experience.
As a farming core, laning priorities should be :
1- staying alive
2- getting as many last hits as possible
The game basically consists in finding a good balance between the two.
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HI guys! I'm not sure whether i should make a new thread about this or not since this is about the same topic. But i decided to put it here.
How many CS should i realistically get as melee cores when i'm against dual lane of heroes who can bully others + somewhat tanky hero or heroes that have sustains, like necro, or all tranquil buyers since i can't cancel their tranquil because if i do i'll get killed by the other one.
1. When i'm solo laning
2. When i'm with another teammate that always try to lasthit themselves
3. When there's a threat of global ganks/ hard/long disable blink carriers (sunstrike, bara charge, jungle legion, axe,etc). (not just there are those heroes in the game, but the enemy player ARE able to, will, and have ganked me)
Plus, i wanna ask if there's anyone who wanna play with me and help me notice my mistakes (which i'm sure is gonna be quite bad...). You can just call it if you see it, don't really try to spot it like a full time coach, and generally just have fun together. I can play on SEA, Japan, India, and Dubai (I'm not sure why i have low ping on dubai...).
or, if you want, i can send either what in my opinion my best game of the day/week, or worst game of the day/week. and you help me analyse it. I'll try explaining why i do things from my point of view and you tell me why it's bad or something along those lines. The second one does sounds like coaching tho, so i'm not forcing anyone to do it if they don't want to (if there's even anyone who wanna play with me i'd be happy XD). But i'm seriously want to and trying to improve.
Sorry if i have terrible grammar, i'm not sure how i'm supposed to write what i want to write.
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Hello, i remember when i first started dota, my two objectives in a game were this
1. Try to not die
2. Get 50cs by min10 on any core
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Why is this old thread bumped. Apologies.
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On June 28 2017 16:57 Erasme wrote:
Hello, i remember when i first started dota, my two objectives in a game were this
1. Try to not die
2. Get 50cs by min10 on any core
Thanks for replying!
Yeah, i'm still working on my laning. Managed to get around 35 cs on average with 50-60 on a good game while having 0-1 death at max.
On June 28 2017 18:21 RubickPicker wrote:
Why is this old thread bumped. Apologies.
I think you already find the reason? (because you edited your post).
In case you haven't, i'm the one who started this thread with the main goal of improving myself. Since i got a new question, i decided to put it here instead of making a new thread since it still on the topic of the thread.
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Ah, too bad. I had a long-ish post I had written for you, but sheepishly deleted it when I realized how old your OP is.
What I was going to say is just lane creep movements: Deny. If you have a support and they aren't harassing, ask them to help with deny while you focus on LH. In a normal game, when the creeps are pushed to the tower, the support would stack a camp for you. But at 1.5K MMR (been there) nobody stacks, so you should go to the jungle. The red team's offlaner is getting free CS, and as safelane having more farm than that guy is your job, so if the lane is pushed in go jungle. That guy getting free CS at his tower isn't likely to leave and come bother you. Just make sure you have vision of the entrances in case mid comes in to gank you. That means wards.
The last thing I'm going to say about 1.5K tier is don't be afraid to buy some wards even if you have to because you have some support that is being obstinate and wants to buy their own items or something. Stumbling around in the dark is the easiest way to lose games. Even in games with hard-headed people who are difficult to deal with, wards can change the game because if those people can see the enemy movements themselves they'll react by themselves.
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EPT
