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OK, so, specifically - I am disappointed with much of the gaming hardware out there right now. So much of it has such obvious and such silly flaws that its kind of ridiculous. Many of these flaws are being turned right back and marketed to us as features!
Being so tired of this state of affairs, I have drafted a megapost regarding non-features and bad design.
Unfortunately, its such a huge topic I'm sure I've made some mistakes! (I'm also aware that sometimes my opinions will be disagreed with, IE, I'm sure someone out there finds macro keys useful, but I'm unlikely to want to change much of what I'm saying in that regard - I am however open to specific examples and convincing logic!)
I am also aware that much of this is covered in the respective megathreads for hardware we already have. This is because I wish for this to be posted in many different places across the internet, and I also hope to use the length of the article to consolidate and as efficiently as possible condense the information into one single source!
NOW! Without further ado, here's what I've got so far.
Please be aware the following is neither complete, nor has the final tone been fully realised - I may stick with the irreverent tone of the articles beginning, or I may re-format to match the later, more factual/formal tone.
I would like any questions and comments directed towards the factual content and its correctness, or otherwise towards any suggestions people may have for improving the articles legibility or clarity without affecting the underlying content. Thankyou!
OK, so after spending a ton of time upon the interwebs and yet more time playing a ton of games, and EVEN MORE TIME THAN THAT learning about hardware and buying mice and keyboards and generally nerding out, I've come to a singular conclusion.
That conclusion is that the vast majority of “Gaming” hardware is shit, and that most gaming “Hardware” advice, is also shit.
This (not so) little diatribe intends to be my very best attempt at fixing that.
So, first things first. Keyboards. Old computers didn't even boot up without one of these bad boys present, so its pretty much reasonable to term this badass motherfucking set of switches the king of hardware. Its also often the most expensive and the one with the biggest surge in popularity among makers right now.
**Why your gaming keyboard is shit, and what you can do about it.**
OK. So, right now there are some pretty fucking fancy gaming keyboards out there on the market. This is nothing new, really. Slightly older gaming keyboard models like the Logitech G11 and G15 are poster children for how much useless crap you can throw at a product.
Newer models like the Steelseries Apex are pushing the boundaries of bullshit right now, and even the much vaunted G710 Logitech mechanical board is really struggling to be taken seriously in more serious circles (Which is to say, most people fucking love it).
So lets review a few features that are completely. Fucking. Useless. On keyboards.
*1 – 1000Hz USB polling rate! 1ms response time! Faster reaction to your keypresses! 1337 Fr4gz0r!*
This is bullshit because keys and keyboards have mechanisms in them already to avoid key bounce and accidental double taps. In plain English, the keyboard, monitors the switch status, and if it detects multiple connections being made within the same few milliseconds, will intelligently average out the input to produce one confirmed keypress, since it is assuming (rightly) that the switch contacts are not being pressed once ever 2ms, but rather bouncing together after actuation.
This stops switches from registering keypresses twice if the contacts bounce together multiple times which is of course, a good thing, and EVERY keyboard on the market does this. Even the cheapy rubber domes and even the Topres and Mechanicals.
When you increase the polling rate over USB, you ask the operating system to check the status of the equipment 1000 times a second. Considering your debounce time will be (typically) between 4 and 8 ms, this means that it is checking the status of the keyswitch AT LEAST FOUR TIMES MORE OFTEN THAN IT IS POSSIBLE TO REGISTER A KEYPRESS.
Sound like bullshit? Sound like a waste of your system resources checking something four times too fast? You betcha it does. (Note: This is also common feature on mice, however since mice are continuous input devices, they actually do benefit a little from high USB polling rates. 500Hz is more than enough though even there.)
*2 – Gold plated USB connector reduces latency from your keyboard! Faster response time! Pwnt nubz!*
This is similarly bullshit. Firstly, electricity travels fucking fast as shit through everything except insulators. Whether its gold or nickel or copper or even lead, when conducted, electricity moves at a considerable fraction of the speed of light. Wikipedia, when I checked, put it to me that in a vacuum, electricity travels at 100% the speed of light. In unshielded copper, 97-98%, and in typical coaxial cable, which is very heavily shielded, 66%.
66% sounds like a big speed reduction, right? Well yeah, proportionally.
However this is 66% of the FASTEST THING IN THE ENTIRE FUCKING UNIVERSE.
Light can go round the earth 7.4 times a fucking second. The earth. That giant fucking ball of rock that you couldn't possibly see all of in a lifetime. 7.4 times. One second.
The gold plating on your USB connector is less than 1mm thick. Much less. We're talking microns thick. Human hair thick.
When you're dealing with something even half as fast as electricity, you're talking measurements of speed that deal with whole meters being traveled in nanoseconds. No fucking way in hell is that gold USB cable making your shit respond faster. Unless you happen to have the capability to slow down time to roughly 1/100000th of normal speed, in which case you might, if you were really paying close fucking attention, notice a difference in response between a very heavily and very lightly insulated cable.
*3 – Macro keys.*
Ok, here's the skinny on macros – They're predefined sequences of keypresses and commands that can be run from a single keypress. This means that if a task is sufficiently simple, and its parameters sufficiently rigid, that this predefined sequence of things can automate it entirely, and therefore a macro is capable of doing in one press what would normally have taken many.
Thing is, games don't fucking work that way. I've had boards with macro keys, and I game a LOT. But the fact is - If you're serious enough about gaming to be dropping serious cash on a keyboard, then you're probably at least looking up to, if not playing at the level of, tournament players.
And basically every tournament out there for any type of game, bans macro keys. So your expensive Logitech G710 isn't tournament legal. You can bring it along, but you'll have to disable your macros and probably the tournament organizers will ask you to remove the key caps from your macro keys to make them hard to hit and use.
And even if that weren't the case, you wouldn't use them because your idols and the people you respect, don't use them. In fact, a macro key is the opposite of skill - it automates a task you cannot do yourself. But the fact is, all those tricks you're setting up macro keys to do? They can be done manually. And probably better that way, with more control, its just harder to learn. You can't set up a macro to muta stack, or rocketjump, or really do much of anything, without it being possible to exercise more control manually. Not to mention, if you've got a macro, remember what it is – a predefined sequence of normal keypresses, executed automatically. If you hit (or need to hit) another key mid-macro, well you just screwed up whatever your macro was doing by interrupting it. Failure!
But wait, what about games like Quake, where people will spam chat messages to annoy their opponents? Well, those aren't macros. They're chatbinds. The software actually allows a message to be sent all at once with one key. No macro, just a predefined message. And you don't need a macro key to do it. Just a normal key you're not using for anything else.
*4 – Bazillion colour backlight! Choose your power glow! Red! Green! Blue! Yellow! Heart!*
If I have to seriously explain to you why varying backlight colours will not make you better at games, you are beyond saving. Thankfully, most manufacturers market this the way it should be marketed – as a visual commodity.
Unfortunately, not all of them do. Thermaltake are particular offenders, since they often term the backlighting on their products (in typical engrish), along the lines of “Backlight to unleash your battle feeling!”.
Don't do this. Don't encourage this. Just don't. Its fine to want backlighting, my Ducky Tenkeyless has it and I asked for it. But don't let backlighting sway your opinion too much guys...
*5 – LCD Screen! On your keyboard! Look at it! It displays stuff!*
Ok, look, seriously, I get that the keyboard companies don't exactly have a ton to work with regarding a legitimate hype machine, but come the fuck on. If you have an LCD screen on your keyboard and you're actually looking at it during games, you are playing games for which you do not need a fancy pants fucking keyboard, because apparently the game is so simple you can divert your attention from it entirely with no consequence.
*6 – Minimized ghosting! 10 key rollover! Anti Ghosting! WOOOoOOoOOooOOoOO!!!*
OK, lets be real here. What is ghosting? Well, in simple terms, its a thing that happens when you press too many keys at once on a bad keyboard. Different boards will handle this different ways. Some will refuse to accept the additional key, and so you might find, as I once did, that diagonal down left on your arrow keys is not possible, because the keyboard won't send both keypresses to the machine at once.
Other boards will occasionally run into situations where certain combinations of keys will produce other characters than initially intended.
What happens when a keyboard ghosts, is that the board is receiving signals from two keys on the same circuit matrix layer. Unable to determine which keys are being pressed directly, it confuses the two signals and registers a key elsewhere on the board by accident.
So this is bad, and therefore anti-ghosting sounds useful, right? And it is. But the problem is that what gaming keyboard manufacturers term anti-ghosting is usually a completely different thing. N Key Rollover.
Here's a description from WASDKeyboards, that tells you what N Key Rollover is.
Key Rollover (N-KRO, 6-KRO) Another benefit that a mechanical keyboard can provide is something called Key Rollover. This terms describes how many keys can be registered when pressed at the same time. WASD mechanical keyboards all feature N-KRO (infinite keys) over a PS/2 connection and 6-KRO (6 keys) over a USB connection. Our mechanical keyboards uses individual diodes for each switch to provide true N-KRO. The reason why the keyboard only provides 6-KRO is due to limitations of the USB protocol. When N-KRO is available, you could theoretically press and hold down all the keys on your keyboard at the same time and have every single key register. With 6-KRO, you can press up to 6 keys and 4 modifier keys (Ctrl, Alt, Shift, Windows). Effectively giving you up to 10 keys in that situation. Since most situations where multiple keys are being held down require the use of modifiers, you will probably never run into a situation where a key press is blocked. So, under most situations, N-KRO is not needed. Some instances where one might find N-KRO necessary are emulating musical instruments (such as a virtual piano) or while playing some games (such as some flight simulators). And here's another, that tells you what most gaming keyboards actually do:
Gaming Matrix - This is similar to Key Rollover, but is far inferior. To save costs, some keyboards are designed so that only certain areas of the keyboard can register more keys at once rather than offering the true Key Rollover achieved by adding diodes to the circuit.
Now, as for ghosting itself – these days its a non issue. You may find that your board hits the limits of its key rollover, if you choose a cheap board or if you use odd, 4+ key combinations not involving modifiers in your favourite games, but even if you did manage to hit the limits of your board somehow, (And in 99% of cases you simply won't, even on cheap boards, no matter how hardcore you are.) most keyboards these days will simply refuse to register more keypresses, rather than misidentifying characters or commands. Its simply useless marketing hype to advertise anti ghosting, even if the manufacturer isn't misidentifying it as a synonym for N-Key Rollover.
Want more proof that this stuff is bull? Well then peep this. The year is Starcraft Broodwar, the worlds most popular eSport RTS EVER, where players earned millions and the scene attained governmentally recognised status as a profession in Korea. The most popular keyboard in the entire sport, for many, many years, was the Qsenn DT-35. You might never have heard of it. (Though if you're into your StarCraft, you probably have) The reason why you might have never heard of it is because its a cheap, throwaway membrane keyboard that was used in internet cafes and bought in bulk for pro team houses so that players could wear them out and go grab another from the back room without breaking the team bank. It doesn't have or advertise N Key rollover because it doesn't need to. Even at 600 actions per minute, no StarCraft player has ever hit the hardware limits of this board.
Now are there situations where a certain amount of N-Key rollover is useful? Sure. But you have to be digging DEEP to find them. Here's a few:
*Braille2000 input (which requires up to 6 keys at once; according to the Keyboard Requirements, SDF + JKL must be accepted, ideally plus spacebar) emulating a musical instrument's keyboard some games*
Now when it says “Some games” we are talking a very, pathetically small number. Unless you KNOW that your game REQUIRES huge numbers of simultaneously held and pressed keys, you seriously have better things to worry about.
**So wait, I thought you'd tell me what I can do about it?**
Thats right, I did! And what you can do about it is this. Stop buying fancy, glitzy keyboards with stupid lights and flashy crap in them and gold USB connectors and LCD screens and 80 bajillion macro keys.
Instead, take the time to read up on the things that genuinely do make a keyboard better to use. Note I said “better to use” and not “make you better at games”, skill is skill and fancy features will not give you more of it.
You can win professional tournaments with minimal and basic gear if you're simply better than the competition. Having nicer gear, flashier gear, whatever, is primarily a luxury thing. A mechanical keyboard with a solid build will make it only very slightly easier to play games. The biggest difference will be in how much you WANT to play games now that you have a fancy keyboard to play them with.
So, what features SHOULD you look out for in your new gaming keyboard?
*1 – Mechanical keyswitches. Maybe.*
Now look, this one isn't set in stone. Like I said above, that Qsenn DT-35 membrane board that costs next to nothing and was bought in bulk in order to be used, abused, and replaced frequently, has won multiple StarCraft professional tournaments, and nobody seemed to mind what keyboard they were using when they hoisted that trophy afterwards.
But, regardless of that, a vast majority of people will agree, that while any board will do, mechanical keyswitch boards feel better, and have many advantages that justify their expense when you're using them all day every day.
There are tons of references available already about mechanical keyswitches, so I'll keep this brief. I'm only going to deal with Cherry MX switches here, simply because unless you're looking at specialist boards (and therefore don't need this guide because you should already know your shit), you're not going to come across any Topre or hall-effect switches anytime soon.
Cherry Switches are mechanical switches and come in various types, usually denoted by colour.
In Cherry MX switches, “Clicky” means the key stem is built in two pieces, such that when pressing the key down, the two parts collide and make a clicking sound. Tactile, on the other hand, means that when pressing the switch down, there is a small “bump” halfway through the travel, which provides touchy-feely feedback as to when the switch has activated.
A switch that is neither of these things is known as linear. Pressing one down is smooth the whole way down, and creates no sound until the switch bottoms out at the end of its travel.
No set rules exist as to what kind of switch you'll like, but as a general rule, tactile switches favour typists, as the feedback allows them to type lightly, without bottoming out the switch, and therefore typing faster and with less stress on the fingertips. Typists are also the main group favouring clicky switches, for the same reason regarding audible feedback.
Linear switches are often characterised as “gamers” switches, however in practice this is really more out of a lack of desire on the part of manufacturers, to market many different boards to appeal to their whole demographic – its simply easier to tell the “gamers” that they want linear switches and put them in everything.
Regards individual switches:
Cherry's Red switches are a linear switch, with a very light feel. They require 40cn of force to activate.
Black switches are essentially “stiffer reds”, requiring 60cn of force to activate, but remaining linear.
Brown switches are tactile, but NOT clicky switches, requiring 45cn of force to depress initially, but activating with a small tactile bump, at 55cn.
Blue switches are tactile and clicky. They require 50cn of force to depress initially, but activate with a small tactile bump, at 60cn.
“Clear” switches are tactile but not clicky. Essentially similar to brown switches, but stiffer. They require 55cn of force to depress initially, activating at 65cn with a small tactile bump.
The last type of switch is fairly rare – the Cherry MX Green. Essentially this is a stiffer Blue. Currently there are very few boards with this switch on the market. They require 80cn of force to depress initially, but activate with a small tactile bump, at 90cn.
*2 – Consider your environment*
Most "Gamer" keyboards are full 104/5 key keyboards. A healthy number of these also have those useless additional macro keys and stuff that make the keyboard even wider. And on top of THAT, keyboards like the Steelseries 7G have stuff like integral, unremovable wrist rests, or large outside bezels that extend significantly beyond the keys themselves because the manufacturers had to have SOMETHING to style like a goddamned UFO.
All of this means that your average "Gamer" keyboard, takes up roughly as much space as a small aircraft carrier. Plenty of nice keyboards however, don't have this, such as Qpad, Ducky, and WASDKeyboards among others. Many of these come in “Tenkeyless” variants, where the numpad is removed, so people who don't use the numpad can save further desk space.
This means more flexible positioning of your gear, which means less chance of badly set up desks, less tension in your shoulders, etc. Trust me, your wrists and shoulders will thank you later.
*3 – Ignore any feature I covered in the first half of this section*
*4 – Really, this is it. However I do have one thing to add on personal preference*
The right keyboard for you is the right keyboard for you, so buy what you want. But, do bear in mind some general preferences I believe will be good approaches for most people
Generally, avoid laptop style chiclet, island, or scissor switch low profile keys. (Apple Aluminium, Razer Lycosa) They're fine if you have a very specific typing style, but low profile and short travel makes them very much easier to typo or mis-hit when using with a typical setup. In text, like this (I am typing this on a laptop), that's less of a problem, but in games, you typically want to avoid pressing keys you're not intending to press, and I, and others like me, find that laptop style keys make it too easy to accidentally hit, say, ctrl+shift rather than just shift.
Secondly, if you're getting mechanical keys, there's little practical reason I can think of to use reds or blacks in gaming terms. They may feel best to you, but they're not "Better" for gaming in any meaningful way beyond that personal preference. They're linear, so there's no tactile bump, and the manufacturers hype I've seen, claims that this is better because you don't need it when gaming, owing to the need to bottom out the key in order to hold it down.
In my view, this doesn't hold water. If you're hammering an MX Brown switch, the tactile bump is pretty difficult to pick up on. It doesn't impede on the travel of the switch and it imparts other benefits when typing, thanks to the tactility offered during less intense activities.
If you want to move to your first mechanical keyboard, in my experience the best switches to go for are going to be browns, or blues if you really, really know you can live with the noise. Blues are too loud for many, reds and blacks don't offer as much feedback, and first time users of a mechanical board will find the browns a good introduction.
Ok, so, moving onto our next piece of hardware: The mouse.
**Why your gaming mouse is shit, and what you can do about it.**
*1 – Its Wireless.*
Ok, look, here's the facts folks – Wireless data transmission is not, and never will be as fast as wired data transmission. It requires too much conversion and decoding throughout the signal chain to be done in the same time, and wireless signals are not 100% reliable so some packets may be lost or otherwise mishandled.
Use a wired mouse if you want to game hardcore. There IS NOT a wireless mouse that can match the instantaneous and reliable transmission of copper wire. Many manufacturers will offer claims like “1ms response time over wireless!” or whathaveyou.
Now, true enough, I can't verify that they're lying. But I can point at all other wireless tech on earth, and point out that almost none of it offers 1ms response on a continuous data stream. On top of that, nobody I'm aware of can prove they're telling the TRUTH either – because how the fuck does the home user measure a 1ms wireless response? Its next to impossible.
So, rather than be burned, just stick to wires. You'll pay less, it'll be more reliable, and it'll respond as quick as it is possible for science to make it respond, a claim which cannot be verified (and which is probably untrue) for wireless tech.
On top of all of that, you'll not have the weight of batteries holding you back, since weight is important in mice, and we cover it below!
*2 – It has a bazillion DPI!*
DPI counts are a major concern for manufacturers. As a marketing tool they're the easiest number to inflate and make higher to prove that your component is more “precise” than the rest.
As an example, take the AVAGO ADNS9500 laser sensor. This is the sensor in the Logitech G9x, and has a maximum CPI (Counts per inch, functionally equivalent to DPI) of 5700. This is also the max advertised DPI of the G9x. However there are many other mice on the market that have higher DPI figures using the same sensor (which at the time was the highest end sensor available to OEMs).
This is achieved by either interpolating the DPI - Artificially increasing the number of counts in software, by attempting to predict the rate of counts and provide "best guess" information for counts occurring between hardware counts. This is obviously not perfect.
Or it is achieved by using a sensor lens which doubles the amount of change the sensor sees for a given amount of movement, which has the same in game effect as moving 2 pixels for every 1 the mouse reports. This is bad and inaccurate.
And the sad fact is, nobody NEEDS this much DPI! its a pointless effort. The highest sense gamers in RTS need only a few inches movement, and they need that to translate into a mouse pointer moving the whole distance across a screen. With windows configured correctly, and providing 1:1 movement for each mouse count received, its possible to achieve unusably high sensitivities with not even 3000 DPI @1920x1080. The amount of pixels in the screen increasing will obviously increase the DPI needed to have the same "feel" to the movement of the cursor in relation to that of the mouse, but even then, the fact is that 90% of StarCraft 2 professional gaming is broadcast at 1920x1080 and tourney PCs are also set to this for seamless streaming. On top of that, Dual Link DVI isn't technically capable of pushing much more than 1920x1080@120Hz, so the highest end gaming monitors from BenQ and Asus, retain a 1920x1080 resolution.
You wouldn't ever need the 12000 DPI of a Sensei MLG edition unless you had a monitor with a resolution upwards of about 8000x4000. And even then, you'd still be using what would translate as a fairly high sensitivity. If you were a low sense user, you'd need half or less!
As a side, BTW, my personal setting is a DPI of 2300 or 1600 depending on the game (1600 for RTS) @1920x1080, with a Logitech G400. This works for me, but thats a fairly HIGH sensitivity. Every friend of mine who uses my machine remarks on how sensitive it is and I immediately turn the DPI down. You do not need that much. You will likely never need that much. SO STOP BUYING BAZILLION DPI MICE.
*3 – The mouse doesn't actually move the cursor the way your hands and arms move the mouse*
It should be said that generally (Or at least, as of Jan 2013) you want to avoid laser mice. All the Avago sensors currently in use on laser mice suffer from a design flaw wherein the sensor itself has unresolvable negative acceleration on the order of 5%. This is slight but its there and it can be noticed.
Acceleration is a feature, hardware or software, whereby your mouses sensitivity is dynamically altered based on how fast the mouse is providing counts to the operating system. In windows, this is the “Enhance pointer precision” option in the mouse settings window.
This is usually on by default. The reason is that most cheap mice have only 400 or 800 DPI at best, and therefore would feel slow and sluggish to many users if windows didn't apply acceleration.
When the mouse is providing counts to the OS slowly, the OS recognises this as the user trying to move the mouse pointer to something precisely. It therefore turns the sensitivity of the mouse down slightly, so 2 hardware counts might result in one pixel of movement, to aid the user.
When the mouse is providing counts quickly, the OS recognises that the mouse is being flicked or moved quickly, and in that instance, it increases the sensitivity because the user is clearly trying to cover a reasonably large distance with the cursor. In this situation, the mouse might move 2 pixels for one hardware count.
Wait, what did I just say? One count? Two pixels moved? Doesn't that mean its SKIPPED a pixel? Yep! You're damn right thats what it means!
Can you imagine how hard it would be to make precise movements if your mouse cursor randomly skipped a pixel every now and again? Pretty annoying when you're trying to do that precision task in Photoshop or whatever, right?
Well thats why mouse accel exists. If the mouse itself doesn't have enough DPI, then you're either stuck with a slow, sluggish mouse feel where you have to practically throw the mouse around to hit the other side of your screen, or you're stuck with a mouse that skips shit all the time. Mouse accel is a clever solution to both problems at once. Unfortunately, it does come with one horrible side effect.
Because the accel is applied based on the speed of the motion, and because humans can't really move a mouse EXACTLY the same way in a repeatable fashion, it makes it so that when you perform, say, a 5cm movement with the mouse, the cursor might move several different distances based on how fast you performed that motion. This means its difficult, especially under pressure, such as in games, to actually perform the same motion exactly the same way reliably over time. Now, to be clear, any software program can "turn off" mouse acceleration by hooking into the windows setting "enhance pointer precision" and turning it off. You can also code custom mouse accel curves into drivers and have variable accel, again, by modifying the windows accel curve. Some professional quake players actually seek a mouse with no accel, then add in a custom accel curve to which they are accustomed, in quake itself.
This does nothing, and can do nothing, to change the accel characteristics of the mouse itself, which, if it is a laser mouse, or a mouse where the manufacturers have added in accel themselves (For example some Steelseries mice actually adertise accel as a FEATURE) will not be neutral. This is because the Avago ADNS9500 sensor which powers most of the current gen laser mice, and its ADNS9800 successor, which powers the MLG edition Steelseries Sensei, both have an amount of accel which is part of the sensor itself. At present, the only mouse sensors on the market which do not exhibit this, are optical, specifically the Avago ADNS3090 and ADNS3050, used in the G400 and some lower end lines respectively. There are other sensors, such as the Philips twin-eye, however that has its own major flaw, which is that its Z-axis tracking does not register up and down correctly, and this means when replacing the mouse after a wide movement, the cursor jumps in one direction when it shouldn't.
The other part of the puzzle is prediction. This is also called angle snapping and is a result of the mouse or its firmware or software, attempting to "assist" you in drawing straight lines or moving in a straight line, as is sometimes helpful in office applications.
If your mouse has angle snapping, then when you describe a perfect circle with it, the software will force the cursor to the form of a rounded square instead. This is becoming less common with high end mice, however many still have it and its usually a firmware issue that cannot be changed in software. For example, the Logitech G400 comes in two variants – one with prediction, and one without. The change was not publicized and the only way to tell the two apart is the seal on the box – the newer version will have a sticker labelled Logitech. The version with prediction has a blank seal.
*4 – Its too heavy*
Look, there's a very simple way to make a mouse with a bad shape, a bad design, and bad weight distribution feel more “Stable” and less twitchy. That is to make it heavier.
Look at the R.A.T. Mice. Not only do they use a Philips sensor (HELLO Z AXIS TRACKING ISSUES), but they're customizable based on a huge metal frame onto which more and more metal is bolted and more weights are added in to boot. The thing weighs a ton. If you want to use this mouse you're looking at a hard time making swift changes in direction, flicks, and god help you if you want to follow a curving path, because the mouse is so heavy it obtains genuinely significant momentum.
None of this is good. A good mouse should be controllable even with minimal weight because you should have good contact with it and it should be easy to move however you want it to move.
*5 – Its got a stupid gimmick, like customisable shape, or a cherry MX switch as a thumb key, or a billion macro keys.*
Look, macro keys are dumb, for the same reasons stated when we discussed keyboards. Cherry MX Switches have 4mm of travel and aren't suited for mice. There's a REASON we already use microswitches, and its not because MX switches won't fit!
As for customizable shapes or weight – Look, this is, admittedly, a thing where personal preference plays a part, hand size, etc.
Thing is, by not committing to a full product line of shapes, manufacturers make their own lives easier by shifting the burden of doing research on different hand shapes onto the consumer. This would be reasonable if it didn't result in compromised performance of the mice themselves, but it always does, because a single molded part will always be lighter than an entire configurable mechanism (Which is why the RAT weighs so much – 150g with the default panels and no weights added. WITHOUT CABLE. Compare that to a Zowie Mico at 68g without cable, or 88g for the full size AM).
*CONCLUSION* – Nearly all gaming mice have one or all of the above flaws. As with keyboards, most of these flaws are actually marketed as FEATURES.
If you're looking for a gaming mouse, look for one with the Avago 3050 or 3090 sensor. Try to determine from reviews and sites like ESReality if the manufacturer has added prediction or acceleration. If in doubt however, The Logitech G400 is one mouse that comes highly recommended. While initially it was produced with prediction, this was removed in a running change roughly a year ago. (Signified by changing the plastic seal on the box from plain black to one with LOGITECH on it. If there are any in the wild still with all black stickers, they have prediction, don't buy.) The grip is tried and true, and its only real flaws are that while not the heaviest mouse ever, there are lighter options out there, and its quite a long mouse, so you may want to look for a short alternative if your game requires lots of vertical movement. Minor issues on a very good mouse, and not applicable to everyone.
Its also quite cheap and remarkably easy to get hold of.
There are of course others, but do your research, learn to spot the marketers speaking over the engineers (GOLD PLATED USB FOR MINIMUM LATENCY!) and if the review you're reading does not devote at least SOME time to testing for prediction or acceleration, DO NOT buy on the basis of that review alone - find one that does test the accel and prediction!
You use your mouse every day. Don't buy one you'll struggle to make co-operate.
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Wow, lots of good information there! Thanks!
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I applaud this effort. Well done, well said, death to gimmicks, and more people need to read this.
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United Kingdom20163 Posts
Most people have misconceptions about DPI because the ones who actually have correct settings (windows + game @ 1:1, no accel in software or hardware) are needle in the haystack, so they dont have any basis for comparison.
I have not seen any evidence that using more than ~1000dpi can actually increase speed and/or accuracy in sc2 (the time it takes to click on a marine cross screen for example) and it seems like quite a few people are using sensitivities somewhere around what 1000dpi 1:1 would be, i prefer lower though
Thanks for posting
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I honestly don't think mechanical keyboards are going to do that much for gaming. I mean, a gaming mouse is a pretty nice tool. But keyboard? I haven't seriously worried about anti-ghosting while gaming since playing hotseat SC2 melee mode (that's Star Control 2, not StarCraft 2...). Any PoS $5 keyboard will do.
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United Kingdom20163 Posts
I think its very much a comfort thing, flash will be flash on a Qsenn DT-35, but it helps at least a little i think aside from that
pro = pro still with horrible mouse, but a good sensor lets you take things to another level
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Oh I can see the luxury comfort with the nicer keyboards. But I don't see a gaming advantage. Maybe for a progamer who actually has 7 billion APM. Unlike, say, a mouse, where it's much easier to have a crappy mouse affect you negatively.
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technically speaking you buy a reliable mechanical keyboard based off of what you said, you make it a "tenkeyless" then you decide between 75 and 60 percent boards
if you dont use F keys you can save FURTHER space on the right half of the board get say a "poker"
if you DO use F keys get something similar to a noppo choc mini which has the F keys above the number keys.
of all the "features" a mechanical keyboard has these days the F keys being a viable button without needing to move the hand far is by far the most important for me
coolermaster makes some of the best mice around. spawn, recon and they are ALWAYS trying to make the firmware perfect far more then any other mouse maker ive seen. the spawn has like 10 firmware updates for various dif things people didnt like. its pretty cool
coolermaster also makes amazing bang for buck keyboards. they are like 70 bucks for cherry mx reds or blacks which are generally considered "gaming" keys and commonly used among my group of friends who game.
the quality is equal or greater too other top quality items but ye i reeaaally recommend people start looking at coolermaster. best hardware company
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United Kingdom20163 Posts
I agree, a lot of their stuff looks really really good. I want a spawn
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will you also do mouse pad and headphones as well? :D
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thanks for taking the time for writing that up! very helpful.
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Should make one on gaming headsets. Biggest fucking ripoff of all time. Sony MDR-V6 + cheapo mic >>>>>> any gaming headset.
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*2 – Gold plated USB connector reduces latency from your keyboard! Faster response time! Pwnt nubz!*
This is similarly bullshit. Firstly, electricity travels fucking fast as shit through everything except insulators. Whether its gold or nickel or copper or even lead, when conducted, electricity moves at a considerable fraction of the speed of light. Wikipedia, when I checked, put it to me that in a vacuum, electricity travels at 100% the speed of light. In unshielded copper, 97-98%, and in typical coaxial cable, which is very heavily shielded, 66%.
66% sounds like a big speed reduction, right? Well yeah, proportionally.
However this is 66% of the FASTEST THING IN THE ENTIRE FUCKING UNIVERSE.
Light can go round the earth 7.4 times a fucking second. The earth. That giant fucking ball of rock that you couldn't possibly see all of in a lifetime. 7.4 times. One second.
The gold plating on your USB connector is less than 1mm thick. Much less. We're talking microns thick. Human hair thick.
When you're dealing with something even half as fast as electricity, you're talking measurements of speed that deal with whole meters being traveled in nanoseconds. No fucking way in hell is that gold USB cable making your shit respond faster. Unless you happen to have the capability to slow down time to roughly 1/100000th of normal speed, in which case you might, if you were really paying close fucking attention, notice a difference in response between a very heavily and very lightly insulated cable. This is a common misconception about a common misconception. The gold plating doesn't help reduce lag, but it is used as a preventative measure to corrosion due to all the electrical signals being sent from the mouse over the years. Eventually you will see a build up of a blue-ish green corrosion on the usb connector, similar to the connection of the terminals on your car battery.
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I don't exactly hunt around gaming peripherals marketing materials all the time—are there really claims of lower latency from gold plating? wtf.
Gold is a relatively soft metal but doesn't oxidize. Nickel or some other plating won't oxidize that easily either. I'm not sure if oxidation is actually quickened by electrical signals being sent, as implied above; high voltages can burn through oxidation, but I don't think that's a factor here. Oxidation -> metals become some metal oxides, which are generally less conductive. Worst-case scenario, with enough oxidation eventually you get an open circuit (until you clean it with alcohol or whatever).
Should be noted that it takes a lot, like an open circuit, to make a short-range lower-speed digital connection like USB to not work 100%.
Also that the actual conductors carrying the USB signals, including ground, are all inside the USB connector and have nothing to do with the metal casing on the plug, whatever color or treatment it may have. If you're going to have contact issues, it's probably going to have to do with connectors getting loose, not oxidation anyway.
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On February 05 2013 14:02 MisterFred wrote: I honestly don't think mechanical keyboards are going to do that much for gaming. I mean, a gaming mouse is a pretty nice tool. But keyboard? I haven't seriously worried about anti-ghosting while gaming since playing hotseat SC2 melee mode (that's Star Control 2, not StarCraft 2...). Any PoS $5 keyboard will do. I think the main thing is, those mechanical keyboards all have a guaranteed feel for their keys, and it will pretty much stay that way over the life of the keyboard. At the public PC rooms at the university I was at, it was all the exact same $15 Logitech keyboard on all the PCs, but every single keyboard felt different. Some were fine, on some you had to press harder, some felt mushy, etc.
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Hey awesome post. I am like you and have researched a ton on gaming gear and such and being a very competitive gamer myself its important to be educated in this stuff as most competitive gamers don't know anything about the gear. You pretty much nailed it right on even though most of it is common sense, or well it should be!
You should post about monitors and headsets. Especially about the new 120hz lightboost trick which is probably the best thing you can get for gaming right now. It is simply amazing.
I firmly believe cherry reds are the best though, it has the lowest actuation point and it is just engineered perfectly for gaming. Not to mention almost all top players use cherry reds at the moment(life, MVP) I am so glad I got reds over browns a while back ago.
I am still using my WMO for over 10 years now. I kind of want to change mouse as there is much better technology right now but I want to get the perfect mouse for me. How is the g400? The g400 seems to be the only flawless mouse with no negative reviews that I have come across. I am not sure if I will like the shape of it. My friend has a g500 it is the same shape right? Right now I am debating between the g400, Zowie ec2 evo, or the deathadder. I never really liked the deathadder and there are a lot more negative reviews about them then the g400. However supposedly it has a better sensor and tracking then the g400? Or maybe I should wait for the zowie FK...
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On February 05 2013 16:31 KentHenry wrote:Show nested quote +*2 – Gold plated USB connector reduces latency from your keyboard! Faster response time! Pwnt nubz!*
This is similarly bullshit. Firstly, electricity travels fucking fast as shit through everything except insulators. Whether its gold or nickel or copper or even lead, when conducted, electricity moves at a considerable fraction of the speed of light. Wikipedia, when I checked, put it to me that in a vacuum, electricity travels at 100% the speed of light. In unshielded copper, 97-98%, and in typical coaxial cable, which is very heavily shielded, 66%.
66% sounds like a big speed reduction, right? Well yeah, proportionally.
However this is 66% of the FASTEST THING IN THE ENTIRE FUCKING UNIVERSE.
Light can go round the earth 7.4 times a fucking second. The earth. That giant fucking ball of rock that you couldn't possibly see all of in a lifetime. 7.4 times. One second.
The gold plating on your USB connector is less than 1mm thick. Much less. We're talking microns thick. Human hair thick.
When you're dealing with something even half as fast as electricity, you're talking measurements of speed that deal with whole meters being traveled in nanoseconds. No fucking way in hell is that gold USB cable making your shit respond faster. Unless you happen to have the capability to slow down time to roughly 1/100000th of normal speed, in which case you might, if you were really paying close fucking attention, notice a difference in response between a very heavily and very lightly insulated cable. This is a common misconception about a common misconception. The gold plating doesn't help reduce lag, but it is used as a preventative measure to corrosion due to all the electrical signals being sent from the mouse over the years. Eventually you will see a build up of a blue-ish green corrosion on the usb connector, similar to the connection of the terminals on your car battery.
You better gold plate the female usb plug in the computer then.
The usbs on one of my computers are pretty corroded, doesn't make a difference.
Great write up OP. You laid your opinion on a little thick/aggressive on at the start, but it improves as you get through and there is a lot of good information here.
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On February 05 2013 16:31 KentHenry wrote:Show nested quote +*2 – Gold plated USB connector reduces latency from your keyboard! Faster response time! Pwnt nubz!*
This is similarly bullshit. Firstly, electricity travels fucking fast as shit through everything except insulators. Whether its gold or nickel or copper or even lead, when conducted, electricity moves at a considerable fraction of the speed of light. Wikipedia, when I checked, put it to me that in a vacuum, electricity travels at 100% the speed of light. In unshielded copper, 97-98%, and in typical coaxial cable, which is very heavily shielded, 66%.
66% sounds like a big speed reduction, right? Well yeah, proportionally.
However this is 66% of the FASTEST THING IN THE ENTIRE FUCKING UNIVERSE.
Light can go round the earth 7.4 times a fucking second. The earth. That giant fucking ball of rock that you couldn't possibly see all of in a lifetime. 7.4 times. One second.
The gold plating on your USB connector is less than 1mm thick. Much less. We're talking microns thick. Human hair thick.
When you're dealing with something even half as fast as electricity, you're talking measurements of speed that deal with whole meters being traveled in nanoseconds. No fucking way in hell is that gold USB cable making your shit respond faster. Unless you happen to have the capability to slow down time to roughly 1/100000th of normal speed, in which case you might, if you were really paying close fucking attention, notice a difference in response between a very heavily and very lightly insulated cable. This is a common misconception about a common misconception. The gold plating doesn't help reduce lag, but it is used as a preventative measure to corrosion due to all the electrical signals being sent from the mouse over the years. Eventually you will see a build up of a blue-ish green corrosion on the usb connector, similar to the connection of the terminals on your car battery.
Not exactly.
Golds properties are malleability and corrosion resistance, but nickel in practice is almost as corrosion resistant and is more than adequate for consumer applications. Especially for keyboards, where the connector sees heavy use and nickel's greater hardness and durability will allow it to perform its anti-corrosion function for far longer. (If you've ever owned headphones with a 1/4" jack that is gold plated, you'll be able to see that at the widest point of the tip, the gold has almost certainly worn away, leaving behind a silver ring. This doesn't happen nearly as quickly, if at all, with normal nickel plated headphone jacks)
Malleability on the other hand is pretty much useless here. On tiny, tiny contacts, like those on, say, a non-LGA CPU socket, having a malleable conductor allows for a more reliable connection than trying to individually contact perfectly hundreds of tiny connections.
But on a larger socket, with sprung contacts like a USB socket, that advantage is nil, it simply isn't needed.
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On February 05 2013 18:54 kuruptt wrote: Hey awesome post. I am like you and have researched a ton on gaming gear and such and being a very competitive gamer myself its important to be educated in this stuff as most competitive gamers don't know anything about the gear. You pretty much nailed it right on even though most of it is common sense, or well it should be!
You should post about monitors and headsets. Especially about the new 120hz lightboost trick which is probably the best thing you can get for gaming right now. It is simply amazing.
I firmly believe cherry reds are the best though, it has the lowest actuation point and it is just engineered perfectly for gaming. Not to mention almost all top players use cherry reds at the moment(life, MVP) I am so glad I got reds over browns a while back ago.
I am still using my WMO for over 10 years now. I kind of want to change mouse as there is much better technology right now but I want to get the perfect mouse for me. How is the g400? The g400 seems to be the only flawless mouse with no negative reviews that I have come across. I am not sure if I will like the shape of it. My friend has a g500 it is the same shape right? Right now I am debating between the g400, Zowie ec2 evo, or the deathadder. I never really liked the deathadder and there are a lot more negative reviews about them then the g400. However supposedly it has a better sensor and tracking then the g400? Or maybe I should wait for the zowie FK...
Not going to address too much here - I'm slightly skeptical of lightboost. I don't necessarily see how it works in an intuitive fashion, so I'm withholding judgement. I'll do research on monitors later though so I may cover it if I can find sufficiently concrete evidence.
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On February 05 2013 19:40 GuitarBizarre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 16:31 KentHenry wrote:*2 – Gold plated USB connector reduces latency from your keyboard! Faster response time! Pwnt nubz!*
This is similarly bullshit. Firstly, electricity travels fucking fast as shit through everything except insulators. Whether its gold or nickel or copper or even lead, when conducted, electricity moves at a considerable fraction of the speed of light. Wikipedia, when I checked, put it to me that in a vacuum, electricity travels at 100% the speed of light. In unshielded copper, 97-98%, and in typical coaxial cable, which is very heavily shielded, 66%.
66% sounds like a big speed reduction, right? Well yeah, proportionally.
However this is 66% of the FASTEST THING IN THE ENTIRE FUCKING UNIVERSE.
Light can go round the earth 7.4 times a fucking second. The earth. That giant fucking ball of rock that you couldn't possibly see all of in a lifetime. 7.4 times. One second.
The gold plating on your USB connector is less than 1mm thick. Much less. We're talking microns thick. Human hair thick.
When you're dealing with something even half as fast as electricity, you're talking measurements of speed that deal with whole meters being traveled in nanoseconds. No fucking way in hell is that gold USB cable making your shit respond faster. Unless you happen to have the capability to slow down time to roughly 1/100000th of normal speed, in which case you might, if you were really paying close fucking attention, notice a difference in response between a very heavily and very lightly insulated cable. This is a common misconception about a common misconception. The gold plating doesn't help reduce lag, but it is used as a preventative measure to corrosion due to all the electrical signals being sent from the mouse over the years. Eventually you will see a build up of a blue-ish green corrosion on the usb connector, similar to the connection of the terminals on your car battery. Not exactly. Golds properties are malleability and corrosion resistance, but nickel in practice is almost as corrosion resistant and is more than adequate for consumer applications. Especially for keyboards, where the connector sees heavy use and nickel's greater hardness and durability will allow it to perform its anti-corrosion function for far longer. (If you've ever owned headphones with a 1/4" jack that is gold plated, you'll be able to see that at the widest point of the tip, the gold has almost certainly worn away, leaving behind a silver ring. This doesn't happen nearly as quickly, if at all, with normal nickel plated headphone jacks) Malleability on the other hand is pretty much useless here. On tiny, tiny contacts, like those on, say, a non-LGA CPU socket, having a malleable conductor allows for a more reliable connection than trying to individually contact perfectly hundreds of tiny connections. But on a larger socket, with sprung contacts like a USB socket, that advantage is nil, it simply isn't needed.
actually the BIG issue is all USB connectors have gold contacts. These happen to have gold on the RMF SHIELD..which is not going to matter.
in other words it is purely cosmetic but gamers love cosmetics
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On February 06 2013 02:10 ripster wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 19:40 GuitarBizarre wrote:On February 05 2013 16:31 KentHenry wrote:*2 – Gold plated USB connector reduces latency from your keyboard! Faster response time! Pwnt nubz!*
This is similarly bullshit. Firstly, electricity travels fucking fast as shit through everything except insulators. Whether its gold or nickel or copper or even lead, when conducted, electricity moves at a considerable fraction of the speed of light. Wikipedia, when I checked, put it to me that in a vacuum, electricity travels at 100% the speed of light. In unshielded copper, 97-98%, and in typical coaxial cable, which is very heavily shielded, 66%.
66% sounds like a big speed reduction, right? Well yeah, proportionally.
However this is 66% of the FASTEST THING IN THE ENTIRE FUCKING UNIVERSE.
Light can go round the earth 7.4 times a fucking second. The earth. That giant fucking ball of rock that you couldn't possibly see all of in a lifetime. 7.4 times. One second.
The gold plating on your USB connector is less than 1mm thick. Much less. We're talking microns thick. Human hair thick.
When you're dealing with something even half as fast as electricity, you're talking measurements of speed that deal with whole meters being traveled in nanoseconds. No fucking way in hell is that gold USB cable making your shit respond faster. Unless you happen to have the capability to slow down time to roughly 1/100000th of normal speed, in which case you might, if you were really paying close fucking attention, notice a difference in response between a very heavily and very lightly insulated cable. This is a common misconception about a common misconception. The gold plating doesn't help reduce lag, but it is used as a preventative measure to corrosion due to all the electrical signals being sent from the mouse over the years. Eventually you will see a build up of a blue-ish green corrosion on the usb connector, similar to the connection of the terminals on your car battery. Not exactly. Golds properties are malleability and corrosion resistance, but nickel in practice is almost as corrosion resistant and is more than adequate for consumer applications. Especially for keyboards, where the connector sees heavy use and nickel's greater hardness and durability will allow it to perform its anti-corrosion function for far longer. (If you've ever owned headphones with a 1/4" jack that is gold plated, you'll be able to see that at the widest point of the tip, the gold has almost certainly worn away, leaving behind a silver ring. This doesn't happen nearly as quickly, if at all, with normal nickel plated headphone jacks) Malleability on the other hand is pretty much useless here. On tiny, tiny contacts, like those on, say, a non-LGA CPU socket, having a malleable conductor allows for a more reliable connection than trying to individually contact perfectly hundreds of tiny connections. But on a larger socket, with sprung contacts like a USB socket, that advantage is nil, it simply isn't needed. actually the BIG issue is all USB connectors have gold contacts. These happen to have gold on the RMF SHIELD..which is not going to matter. in other words it is purely cosmetic but gamers love cosmetics
Haha, I suspected this too but wasn't sure, so I chose to stick with what I know from audio re: why gold contacts aren't much use in that context.
That said, would nickel usb contacts not be perfectly fine also, for the reasons I described? Obviously as a draft this is subject to being changed and edited so this is exactly the kind of feedback that can make it great.
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It's not like keyboard manufacturers listen to this. Marketing departments drive the gaming keyboard business.
It's up to you guys to be sheep or not.
I spent three years at Geekwhack.organ and Overclock.net trying to get NKRO over USB explained and they'd rather go PS/2 because the marketing departments tell them to.
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On February 06 2013 06:44 ripster wrote: It's not like keyboard manufacturers listen to this. Marketing departments drive the gaming keyboard business.
It's up to you guys to be sheep or not.
I spent three years at Geekwhack.organ and Overclock.net trying to get NKRO over USB explained and they'd rather go PS/2 because the marketing departments tell them to.
Well, this is true enough, I have no delusions that this will change the world, but what I do hope is that I can create something comprehensive and reliable that can be used to help the savvy consumer avoid the worst of the bullshit and get products that will not only cost less, but work just as well, or better.
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A headset section would be a huge help, for me at least. I'm completely clueless on them. Also I'm interested in what keyboard/mouse you use.
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On February 06 2013 07:29 Absurdly wrote: A headset section would be a huge help, for me at least. I'm completely clueless on them. Also I'm interested in what keyboard/mouse you use.
Forthcoming. I want to get these two sections done. After that will be headsets, and eventually monitors.
I'm undecided on whether to add mouse pads, since largely mouse pads are cheap enough to just try a few and find one you like, and they're not as crazy with the marketing bullshit. Also most problems with mouse pads are really problems with sensors and mice, for example laser sensors jittering on different surfaces isn't really a pad problem, its a laser problem.
As for my personal gear:
Current:
Ducky DK9087S2-BUKALG Tenkeyless Mechanical Keyboard - Cherry MX Brown Switches, Green Backlight Logitech G400 Optical Mouse - Avago ADNS3090 Sensor, currently set to 1600 DPI for desktop and most games, I switch to 2300 DPI for Quake Live. Steelseries Qck+ Mousepad (Guild Wars 2 version, was all they had at the shop) BenQ XL2420T 120Hz monitor (Primary) - 1920x1080 120Hz LG 32LH7000 32" 1080p TV (Secondary) - 1920x1080 60Hz
Audio is a category to itself for me:
Usual audio path is: USB > Cambridge Audio Dacmagic > NAD C326BEE > Mordaunt Short Mezzo 2
Also connected is a Pro-ject Genie 3 RPM 1.3 Turntable and Cambridge Audio 540P Phono Stage for Vinyl Playback.
When headphones are required, I use Grado SR80 headphones.
Also gear I've owned and used before: + Show Spoiler +Keyboards: Logitech G11 - Ignoring the ridiculous non-features, not bad for a rubber dome. Destroyed by errant water. Saitek Eclipse 2 - Kind of flimsy, flexes when typing hard. Kept around as a spare. QPad MK-50 - MX Browns, UK Layout, actually very nice, replaced only for space saving by moving to a tenkeyless. Mice: Logitech G5 - Great shape and quite sturdy. Can't comment on the tracking performance since it was my first serious mouse, and I had yet to learn about accel or the other fineries this thread deals with. Currently permaloaned to a family member. Logitech G9x - Felt kinda weird to me. Got used to it, but at first, every sideways stroke I tried to make turned out sloping down and rightwards. Replaced with G400 since I learned about mouse accel, and started to notice it had that minor negative accel that bugged me in some games. Mousepads: Steelseries SP - Actually quite good. Very rough for a hard pad, but very quick glide because of it and it lasted a long time before it got glossy spots and needed replacing. Steelseries 9HD - Little bit more friction than the SP, and wore out faster. Liked it when it was new, the extra friction provided more control, but I could never afford to replace these as quickly as I would wear them out. Desk - Its a desk. Audio: Kenwood R-SE7 Class A Amplifier (Also owned the associated CD Player, Minidisc Player, and Speakers, but never really used the CD or MD) Heybrook HB1 Speakers (The ones from 1985, not the newer ones, which are totally different) Pro-ject Genie 3 RPM 1.3 Turntable THIS mini system, when I was but a little boyI have some other bits that I'm not using, the only salient one of which is a Denon amplifier I used in university (Didn't want to use my nicer one in a dorm room where it might get stolen.)
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Ok, i'll touch on the writing, and mouse stuff as I know a few things... First, you need to change your tone in the writeup. People are less inclined to take your seriously with the rant-esque tone (even if it is somewhat warranted, gaming peripherals are indeed overblown). As an example take a look at the Truthful Mouse Guide on Overclocked.net. It has some ok information but its very biased and very similar in tone to yours, and because of the tone many people do not take it seriously or just ignore it (also bc he's wrong in a number of instances).
About the mouse stuff specifically...There are a number of errors in your post, one about the adns 9500 only being interpolated over 5700cpi, but that has more to do with you not talking about the importance of firmware changes or proprietary firmwares (e.g. Razer products). Honestly I'd say more but you should read this instead: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333648
I'm a little too under the radar promoting that article, but it pretty much covers everything you'll need to know.
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On February 06 2013 08:02 wo1fwood wrote:Ok, i'll touch on the writing, and mouse stuff as I know a few things... First, you need to change your tone in the writeup. People are less inclined to take your seriously with the rant-esque tone (even if it is somewhat warranted, gaming peripherals are indeed overblown). As an example take a look at the Truthful Mouse Guide on Overclocked.net. It has some ok information but its very biased and very similar in tone to yours, and because of the tone many people do not take it seriously or just ignore it (also bc he's wrong in a number of instances). About the mouse stuff specifically...There are a number of errors in your post, one about the adns 9500 only being interpolated over 5700cpi, but that has more to do with you not talking about the importance of firmware changes or proprietary firmwares (e.g. Razer products). Honestly I'd say more but you should read this instead: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333648I'm a little too under the radar promoting that article, but it pretty much covers everything you'll need to know.
1 - Noted. Basically agreed with you anyway, but I wrote the first part in that style on a whim.
2 - Your post deals with interpolated CPI and most other stuff pretty well, but am I misguided in thinking there are mice out there that advertise DPI in excess of the sensor specs? Also, can you elaborate on the difference between the ANDS9800 and 9500, since it was my understanding that the 9800 was, as stated, a 9500 with a 2x lens.
Edit: Also, I've read your guide (Before posting this in fact), but could you at least point out where or what the errors are, so I know where in your guide to look for corrections?
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On February 05 2013 16:23 wei2coolman wrote: Should make one on gaming headsets. Biggest fucking ripoff of all time. Sony MDR-V6 + cheapo mic >>>>>> any gaming headset.
Nah, you can get a Fatal1ty headset for around $20 and it's a great little headset, clear mic, comfortable velvet cushions and nice crisp sound.
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On February 06 2013 10:25 GGHHGG wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2013 16:23 wei2coolman wrote: Should make one on gaming headsets. Biggest fucking ripoff of all time. Sony MDR-V6 + cheapo mic >>>>>> any gaming headset. Nah, you can get a Fatal1ty headset for around $20 and it's a great little headset, clear mic, comfortable velvet cushions and nice crisp sound. 'Crisp sound'. I lost it I'm afraid.
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I was going to go for the G400, but I dont like the shape and it looks kind of big, so I went for the Mico which supposedly have problems at 1600 dpi or something.
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On February 06 2013 08:22 GuitarBizarre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 08:02 wo1fwood wrote:Ok, i'll touch on the writing, and mouse stuff as I know a few things... First, you need to change your tone in the writeup. People are less inclined to take your seriously with the rant-esque tone (even if it is somewhat warranted, gaming peripherals are indeed overblown). As an example take a look at the Truthful Mouse Guide on Overclocked.net. It has some ok information but its very biased and very similar in tone to yours, and because of the tone many people do not take it seriously or just ignore it (also bc he's wrong in a number of instances). About the mouse stuff specifically...There are a number of errors in your post, one about the adns 9500 only being interpolated over 5700cpi, but that has more to do with you not talking about the importance of firmware changes or proprietary firmwares (e.g. Razer products). Honestly I'd say more but you should read this instead: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333648I'm a little too under the radar promoting that article, but it pretty much covers everything you'll need to know. 1 - Noted. Basically agreed with you anyway, but I wrote the first part in that style on a whim. 2 - Your post deals with interpolated CPI and most other stuff pretty well, but am I misguided in thinking there are mice out there that advertise DPI in excess of the sensor specs? Also, can you elaborate on the difference between the ANDS9800 and 9500, since it was my understanding that the 9800 was, as stated, a 9500 with a 2x lens. Edit: Also, I've read your guide (Before posting this in fact), but could you at least point out where or what the errors are, so I know where in your guide to look for corrections? the factory default for the 9800 is 8200cpi. What is sort of less stated around here about mice and cpi,tracking and the like, is that there is a lot of variability in how much ips a sensor can get, and how much cpi and this has a lot to do with how the firmware is configured, along with the lens type. Then you have people like Razer who develop their own firmwares beyond the factory default, but those variations can all have differences in ips, tracking, and even the amount of cpi. Its more of a theoretical bc fiddling with the cpi isn't something that companies tend to do often, but it is possible. The 9800 iirc does use the same hardware as the 9500, but many of the changes to the sensor there are not physical but in the srom/firmware.
What you might be remembering about interpolated steps is the 12000ish cpi that was advertised in the original Sensei. In that case specifically, most definitely that is interpolated, and the bad kind at that (counts are likely just doubled, so beyond the native max of the sensor you won't see any benefit, basically a marketing ploy). There are certainly others like the MiCo but I cant remember of the top of my head if the 1600 cpi was interpolated or not. Main thing about interpolation is that it can happen two ways, either in excess of the native cpi max, or below it. You know how the 9500 states that it has increments of 90 up to 5760 in the datasheet? That means that if in your Logitech or equivalent settings you set your CPI to 200, you have set your mouse to a non-native and interpolated step.
Here are a few errors i'll pick out
adns 5700 cpi - many firmwares factory default is 5670 (90*63)
sensei mlg - uses the 9800 can interpolate up to 16K cpi (exactly like original sensei I would guess)
high dpi - there is a lesser understood benefit to having more cpi, and its the ability to track reliably at higher ips
laser mice - i would avoid this quip about avoiding them. FPS players for sure are going to be somewhat annoyed with the variable acceleration in non Philips sensors, but RTS players, I would be surprised if they even noticed that the +/- accel is even there. (has to do with how they use their mice\)
accel - look at my section on accel for the curve calculations, but, some people do use accel. I know that a lot of quake players have looked into it bc of how that game works. Using or not using it is a personal preference, nothing more (note: quake has in-game accel options as well).
there are some more, but basically, the reason I said go look at my article is bc half of the issue is that you are not being specific enough in your language so that some important nuances that need to be known aren't touched upon, and therefore your post then does the opposite, and misleads people into an incomplete understanding. As an example, the way you have it formatted to someone paying less attention, they might draw conclusions that mice have that weird acceleration thing, and not make the distinction that its actually windows/os accel that your are talking about ant not variable hardware accel of sensors.
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On February 05 2013 14:56 sunglasseson wrote: technically speaking you buy a reliable mechanical keyboard based off of what you said, you make it a "tenkeyless" then you decide between 75 and 60 percent boards
if you dont use F keys you can save FURTHER space on the right half of the board get say a "poker"
if you DO use F keys get something similar to a noppo choc mini which has the F keys above the number keys.
of all the "features" a mechanical keyboard has these days the F keys being a viable button without needing to move the hand far is by far the most important for me
coolermaster makes some of the best mice around. spawn, recon and they are ALWAYS trying to make the firmware perfect far more then any other mouse maker ive seen. the spawn has like 10 firmware updates for various dif things people didnt like. its pretty cool
coolermaster also makes amazing bang for buck keyboards. they are like 70 bucks for cherry mx reds or blacks which are generally considered "gaming" keys and commonly used among my group of friends who game.
the quality is equal or greater too other top quality items but ye i reeaaally recommend people start looking at coolermaster. best hardware company
I agree. I feel Coolermaster and Roccat are two different brands on each side of the bar. Coolermaster has cheap bang for buck products. While Roccat has expensive hyped products with a lot of flash and bad durability. As for zowie I feel they are close to coolermaster. But coolermaster seems very good at what they are doing - perhaps a little bit cheaper, more bang for buck.
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On February 05 2013 09:55 GuitarBizarre wrote:OK, so, specifically - I am disappointed with much of the gaming hardware out there right now. So much of it has such obvious and such silly flaws that its kind of ridiculous. Many of these flaws are being turned right back and marketed to us as features! Being so tired of this state of affairs, I have drafted a megapost regarding non-features and bad design. Unfortunately, its such a huge topic I'm sure I've made some mistakes! (I'm also aware that sometimes my opinions will be disagreed with, IE, I'm sure someone out there finds macro keys useful, but I'm unlikely to want to change much of what I'm saying in that regard - I am however open to specific examples and convincing logic!) I am also aware that much of this is covered in the respective megathreads for hardware we already have. This is because I wish for this to be posted in many different places across the internet, and I also hope to use the length of the article to consolidate and as efficiently as possible condense the information into one single source! NOW! Without further ado, here's what I've got so far. Please be aware the following is neither complete, nor has the final tone been fully realised - I may stick with the irreverent tone of the articles beginning, or I may re-format to match the later, more factual/formal tone. I would like any questions and comments directed towards the factual content and its correctness, or otherwise towards any suggestions people may have for improving the articles legibility or clarity without affecting the underlying content. Thankyou!Show nested quote +OK, so after spending a ton of time upon the interwebs and yet more time playing a ton of games, and EVEN MORE TIME THAN THAT learning about hardware and buying mice and keyboards and generally nerding out, I've come to a singular conclusion.
That conclusion is that the vast majority of “Gaming” hardware is shit, and that most gaming “Hardware” advice, is also shit.
This (not so) little diatribe intends to be my very best attempt at fixing that.
So, first things first. Keyboards. Old computers didn't even boot up without one of these bad boys present, so its pretty much reasonable to term this badass motherfucking set of switches the king of hardware. Its also often the most expensive and the one with the biggest surge in popularity among makers right now.
**Why your gaming keyboard is shit, and what you can do about it.**
OK. So, right now there are some pretty fucking fancy gaming keyboards out there on the market. This is nothing new, really. Slightly older gaming keyboard models like the Logitech G11 and G15 are poster children for how much useless crap you can throw at a product.
Newer models like the Steelseries Apex are pushing the boundaries of bullshit right now, and even the much vaunted G710 Logitech mechanical board is really struggling to be taken seriously in more serious circles (Which is to say, most people fucking love it).
So lets review a few features that are completely. Fucking. Useless. On keyboards.
*1 – 1000Hz USB polling rate! 1ms response time! Faster reaction to your keypresses! 1337 Fr4gz0r!*
This is bullshit because keys and keyboards have mechanisms in them already to avoid key bounce and accidental double taps. In plain English, the keyboard, monitors the switch status, and if it detects multiple connections being made within the same few milliseconds, will intelligently average out the input to produce one confirmed keypress, since it is assuming (rightly) that the switch contacts are not being pressed once ever 2ms, but rather bouncing together after actuation.
This stops switches from registering keypresses twice if the contacts bounce together multiple times which is of course, a good thing, and EVERY keyboard on the market does this. Even the cheapy rubber domes and even the Topres and Mechanicals.
When you increase the polling rate over USB, you ask the operating system to check the status of the equipment 1000 times a second. Considering your debounce time will be (typically) between 4 and 8 ms, this means that it is checking the status of the keyswitch AT LEAST FOUR TIMES MORE OFTEN THAN IT IS POSSIBLE TO REGISTER A KEYPRESS.
Sound like bullshit? Sound like a waste of your system resources checking something four times too fast? You betcha it does. (Note: This is also common feature on mice, however since mice are continuous input devices, they actually do benefit a little from high USB polling rates. 500Hz is more than enough though even there.)
*2 – Gold plated USB connector reduces latency from your keyboard! Faster response time! Pwnt nubz!*
This is similarly bullshit. Firstly, electricity travels fucking fast as shit through everything except insulators. Whether its gold or nickel or copper or even lead, when conducted, electricity moves at a considerable fraction of the speed of light. Wikipedia, when I checked, put it to me that in a vacuum, electricity travels at 100% the speed of light. In unshielded copper, 97-98%, and in typical coaxial cable, which is very heavily shielded, 66%.
66% sounds like a big speed reduction, right? Well yeah, proportionally.
However this is 66% of the FASTEST THING IN THE ENTIRE FUCKING UNIVERSE.
Light can go round the earth 7.4 times a fucking second. The earth. That giant fucking ball of rock that you couldn't possibly see all of in a lifetime. 7.4 times. One second.
The gold plating on your USB connector is less than 1mm thick. Much less. We're talking microns thick. Human hair thick.
When you're dealing with something even half as fast as electricity, you're talking measurements of speed that deal with whole meters being traveled in nanoseconds. No fucking way in hell is that gold USB cable making your shit respond faster. Unless you happen to have the capability to slow down time to roughly 1/100000th of normal speed, in which case you might, if you were really paying close fucking attention, notice a difference in response between a very heavily and very lightly insulated cable.
*3 – Macro keys.*
Ok, here's the skinny on macros – They're predefined sequences of keypresses and commands that can be run from a single keypress. This means that if a task is sufficiently simple, and its parameters sufficiently rigid, that this predefined sequence of things can automate it entirely, and therefore a macro is capable of doing in one press what would normally have taken many.
Thing is, games don't fucking work that way. I've had boards with macro keys, and I game a LOT. But the fact is - If you're serious enough about gaming to be dropping serious cash on a keyboard, then you're probably at least looking up to, if not playing at the level of, tournament players.
And basically every tournament out there for any type of game, bans macro keys. So your expensive Logitech G710 isn't tournament legal. You can bring it along, but you'll have to disable your macros and probably the tournament organizers will ask you to remove the key caps from your macro keys to make them hard to hit and use.
And even if that weren't the case, you wouldn't use them because your idols and the people you respect, don't use them. In fact, a macro key is the opposite of skill - it automates a task you cannot do yourself. But the fact is, all those tricks you're setting up macro keys to do? They can be done manually. And probably better that way, with more control, its just harder to learn. You can't set up a macro to muta stack, or rocketjump, or really do much of anything, without it being possible to exercise more control manually. Not to mention, if you've got a macro, remember what it is – a predefined sequence of normal keypresses, executed automatically. If you hit (or need to hit) another key mid-macro, well you just screwed up whatever your macro was doing by interrupting it. Failure!
But wait, what about games like Quake, where people will spam chat messages to annoy their opponents? Well, those aren't macros. They're chatbinds. The software actually allows a message to be sent all at once with one key. No macro, just a predefined message. And you don't need a macro key to do it. Just a normal key you're not using for anything else.
*4 – Bazillion colour backlight! Choose your power glow! Red! Green! Blue! Yellow! Heart!*
If I have to seriously explain to you why varying backlight colours will not make you better at games, you are beyond saving. Thankfully, most manufacturers market this the way it should be marketed – as a visual commodity.
Unfortunately, not all of them do. Thermaltake are particular offenders, since they often term the backlighting on their products (in typical engrish), along the lines of “Backlight to unleash your battle feeling!”.
Don't do this. Don't encourage this. Just don't. Its fine to want backlighting, my Ducky Tenkeyless has it and I asked for it. But don't let backlighting sway your opinion too much guys...
*5 – LCD Screen! On your keyboard! Look at it! It displays stuff!*
Ok, look, seriously, I get that the keyboard companies don't exactly have a ton to work with regarding a legitimate hype machine, but come the fuck on. If you have an LCD screen on your keyboard and you're actually looking at it during games, you are playing games for which you do not need a fancy pants fucking keyboard, because apparently the game is so simple you can divert your attention from it entirely with no consequence.
*6 – Minimized ghosting! 10 key rollover! Anti Ghosting! WOOOoOOoOOooOOoOO!!!*
OK, lets be real here. What is ghosting? Well, in simple terms, its a thing that happens when you press too many keys at once on a bad keyboard. Different boards will handle this different ways. Some will refuse to accept the additional key, and so you might find, as I once did, that diagonal down left on your arrow keys is not possible, because the keyboard won't send both keypresses to the machine at once.
Other boards will occasionally run into situations where certain combinations of keys will produce other characters than initially intended.
What happens when a keyboard ghosts, is that the board is receiving signals from two keys on the same circuit matrix layer. Unable to determine which keys are being pressed directly, it confuses the two signals and registers a key elsewhere on the board by accident.
So this is bad, and therefore anti-ghosting sounds useful, right? And it is. But the problem is that what gaming keyboard manufacturers term anti-ghosting is usually a completely different thing. N Key Rollover.
Here's a description from WASDKeyboards, that tells you what N Key Rollover is.
Key Rollover (N-KRO, 6-KRO) Another benefit that a mechanical keyboard can provide is something called Key Rollover. This terms describes how many keys can be registered when pressed at the same time. WASD mechanical keyboards all feature N-KRO (infinite keys) over a PS/2 connection and 6-KRO (6 keys) over a USB connection. Our mechanical keyboards uses individual diodes for each switch to provide true N-KRO. The reason why the keyboard only provides 6-KRO is due to limitations of the USB protocol. When N-KRO is available, you could theoretically press and hold down all the keys on your keyboard at the same time and have every single key register. With 6-KRO, you can press up to 6 keys and 4 modifier keys (Ctrl, Alt, Shift, Windows). Effectively giving you up to 10 keys in that situation. Since most situations where multiple keys are being held down require the use of modifiers, you will probably never run into a situation where a key press is blocked. So, under most situations, N-KRO is not needed. Some instances where one might find N-KRO necessary are emulating musical instruments (such as a virtual piano) or while playing some games (such as some flight simulators). And here's another, that tells you what most gaming keyboards actually do:
Gaming Matrix - This is similar to Key Rollover, but is far inferior. To save costs, some keyboards are designed so that only certain areas of the keyboard can register more keys at once rather than offering the true Key Rollover achieved by adding diodes to the circuit.
Now, as for ghosting itself – these days its a non issue. You may find that your board hits the limits of its key rollover, if you choose a cheap board or if you use odd, 4+ key combinations not involving modifiers in your favourite games, but even if you did manage to hit the limits of your board somehow, (And in 99% of cases you simply won't, even on cheap boards, no matter how hardcore you are.) most keyboards these days will simply refuse to register more keypresses, rather than misidentifying characters or commands. Its simply useless marketing hype to advertise anti ghosting, even if the manufacturer isn't misidentifying it as a synonym for N-Key Rollover.
Want more proof that this stuff is bull? Well then peep this. The year is Starcraft Broodwar, the worlds most popular eSport RTS EVER, where players earned millions and the scene attained governmentally recognised status as a profession in Korea. The most popular keyboard in the entire sport, for many, many years, was the Qsenn DT-35. You might never have heard of it. (Though if you're into your StarCraft, you probably have) The reason why you might have never heard of it is because its a cheap, throwaway membrane keyboard that was used in internet cafes and bought in bulk for pro team houses so that players could wear them out and go grab another from the back room without breaking the team bank. It doesn't have or advertise N Key rollover because it doesn't need to. Even at 600 actions per minute, no StarCraft player has ever hit the hardware limits of this board.
Now are there situations where a certain amount of N-Key rollover is useful? Sure. But you have to be digging DEEP to find them. Here's a few:
*Braille2000 input (which requires up to 6 keys at once; according to the Keyboard Requirements, SDF + JKL must be accepted, ideally plus spacebar) emulating a musical instrument's keyboard some games*
Now when it says “Some games” we are talking a very, pathetically small number. Unless you KNOW that your game REQUIRES huge numbers of simultaneously held and pressed keys, you seriously have better things to worry about.
**So wait, I thought you'd tell me what I can do about it?**
Thats right, I did! And what you can do about it is this. Stop buying fancy, glitzy keyboards with stupid lights and flashy crap in them and gold USB connectors and LCD screens and 80 bajillion macro keys.
Instead, take the time to read up on the things that genuinely do make a keyboard better to use. Note I said “better to use” and not “make you better at games”, skill is skill and fancy features will not give you more of it.
You can win professional tournaments with minimal and basic gear if you're simply better than the competition. Having nicer gear, flashier gear, whatever, is primarily a luxury thing. A mechanical keyboard with a solid build will make it only very slightly easier to play games. The biggest difference will be in how much you WANT to play games now that you have a fancy keyboard to play them with.
So, what features SHOULD you look out for in your new gaming keyboard?
*1 – Mechanical keyswitches. Maybe.*
Now look, this one isn't set in stone. Like I said above, that Qsenn DT-35 membrane board that costs next to nothing and was bought in bulk in order to be used, abused, and replaced frequently, has won multiple StarCraft professional tournaments, and nobody seemed to mind what keyboard they were using when they hoisted that trophy afterwards.
But, regardless of that, a vast majority of people will agree, that while any board will do, mechanical keyswitch boards feel better, and have many advantages that justify their expense when you're using them all day every day.
There are tons of references available already about mechanical keyswitches, so I'll keep this brief. I'm only going to deal with Cherry MX switches here, simply because unless you're looking at specialist boards (and therefore don't need this guide because you should already know your shit), you're not going to come across any Topre or hall-effect switches anytime soon.
Cherry Switches are mechanical switches and come in various types, usually denoted by colour.
In Cherry MX switches, “Clicky” means the key stem is built in two pieces, such that when pressing the key down, the two parts collide and make a clicking sound. Tactile, on the other hand, means that when pressing the switch down, there is a small “bump” halfway through the travel, which provides touchy-feely feedback as to when the switch has activated.
A switch that is neither of these things is known as linear. Pressing one down is smooth the whole way down, and creates no sound until the switch bottoms out at the end of its travel.
No set rules exist as to what kind of switch you'll like, but as a general rule, tactile switches favour typists, as the feedback allows them to type lightly, without bottoming out the switch, and therefore typing faster and with less stress on the fingertips. Typists are also the main group favouring clicky switches, for the same reason regarding audible feedback.
Linear switches are often characterised as “gamers” switches, however in practice this is really more out of a lack of desire on the part of manufacturers, to market many different boards to appeal to their whole demographic – its simply easier to tell the “gamers” that they want linear switches and put them in everything.
Regards individual switches:
Cherry's Red switches are a linear switch, with a very light feel. They require 40cn of force to activate.
Black switches are essentially “stiffer reds”, requiring 60cn of force to activate, but remaining linear.
Brown switches are tactile, but NOT clicky switches, requiring 45cn of force to depress initially, but activating with a small tactile bump, at 55cn.
Blue switches are tactile and clicky. They require 50cn of force to depress initially, but activate with a small tactile bump, at 60cn.
“Clear” switches are tactile but not clicky. Essentially similar to brown switches, but stiffer. They require 55cn of force to depress initially, activating at 65cn with a small tactile bump.
The last type of switch is fairly rare – the Cherry MX Green. Essentially this is a stiffer Blue. Currently there are very few boards with this switch on the market. They require 80cn of force to depress initially, but activate with a small tactile bump, at 90cn.
*2 – Consider your environment*
Most "Gamer" keyboards are full 104/5 key keyboards. A healthy number of these also have those useless additional macro keys and stuff that make the keyboard even wider. And on top of THAT, keyboards like the Steelseries 7G have stuff like integral, unremovable wrist rests, or large outside bezels that extend significantly beyond the keys themselves because the manufacturers had to have SOMETHING to style like a goddamned UFO.
All of this means that your average "Gamer" keyboard, takes up roughly as much space as a small aircraft carrier. Plenty of nice keyboards however, don't have this, such as Qpad, Ducky, and WASDKeyboards among others. Many of these come in “Tenkeyless” variants, where the numpad is removed, so people who don't use the numpad can save further desk space.
This means more flexible positioning of your gear, which means less chance of badly set up desks, less tension in your shoulders, etc. Trust me, your wrists and shoulders will thank you later.
*3 – Ignore any feature I covered in the first half of this section*
*4 – Really, this is it. However I do have one thing to add on personal preference*
The right keyboard for you is the right keyboard for you, so buy what you want. But, do bear in mind some general preferences I believe will be good approaches for most people
Generally, avoid laptop style chiclet, island, or scissor switch low profile keys. (Apple Aluminium, Razer Lycosa) They're fine if you have a very specific typing style, but low profile and short travel makes them very much easier to typo or mis-hit when using with a typical setup. In text, like this (I am typing this on a laptop), that's less of a problem, but in games, you typically want to avoid pressing keys you're not intending to press, and I, and others like me, find that laptop style keys make it too easy to accidentally hit, say, ctrl+shift rather than just shift.
Secondly, if you're getting mechanical keys, there's little practical reason I can think of to use reds or blacks in gaming terms. They may feel best to you, but they're not "Better" for gaming in any meaningful way beyond that personal preference. They're linear, so there's no tactile bump, and the manufacturers hype I've seen, claims that this is better because you don't need it when gaming, owing to the need to bottom out the key in order to hold it down.
In my view, this doesn't hold water. If you're hammering an MX Brown switch, the tactile bump is pretty difficult to pick up on. It doesn't impede on the travel of the switch and it imparts other benefits when typing, thanks to the tactility offered during less intense activities.
If you want to move to your first mechanical keyboard, in my experience the best switches to go for are going to be browns, or blues if you really, really know you can live with the noise. Blues are too loud for many, reds and blacks don't offer as much feedback, and first time users of a mechanical board will find the browns a good introduction.
Ok, so, moving onto our next piece of hardware: The mouse.
**Why your gaming mouse is shit, and what you can do about it.**
*1 – Its Wireless.*
Ok, look, here's the facts folks – Wireless data transmission is not, and never will be as fast as wired data transmission. It requires too much conversion and decoding throughout the signal chain to be done in the same time, and wireless signals are not 100% reliable so some packets may be lost or otherwise mishandled.
Use a wired mouse if you want to game hardcore. There IS NOT a wireless mouse that can match the instantaneous and reliable transmission of copper wire. Many manufacturers will offer claims like “1ms response time over wireless!” or whathaveyou.
Now, true enough, I can't verify that they're lying. But I can point at all other wireless tech on earth, and point out that almost none of it offers 1ms response on a continuous data stream. On top of that, nobody I'm aware of can prove they're telling the TRUTH either – because how the fuck does the home user measure a 1ms wireless response? Its next to impossible.
So, rather than be burned, just stick to wires. You'll pay less, it'll be more reliable, and it'll respond as quick as it is possible for science to make it respond, a claim which cannot be verified (and which is probably untrue) for wireless tech.
On top of all of that, you'll not have the weight of batteries holding you back, since weight is important in mice, and we cover it below!
*2 – It has a bazillion DPI!*
DPI counts are a major concern for manufacturers. As a marketing tool they're the easiest number to inflate and make higher to prove that your component is more “precise” than the rest.
As an example, take the AVAGO ADNS9500 laser sensor. This is the sensor in the Logitech G9x, and has a maximum CPI (Counts per inch, functionally equivalent to DPI) of 5700. This is also the max advertised DPI of the G9x. However there are many other mice on the market that have higher DPI figures using the same sensor (which at the time was the highest end sensor available to OEMs).
This is achieved by either interpolating the DPI - Artificially increasing the number of counts in software, by attempting to predict the rate of counts and provide "best guess" information for counts occurring between hardware counts. This is obviously not perfect.
Or it is achieved by using a sensor lens which doubles the amount of change the sensor sees for a given amount of movement, which has the same in game effect as moving 2 pixels for every 1 the mouse reports. This is bad and inaccurate.
And the sad fact is, nobody NEEDS this much DPI! its a pointless effort. The highest sense gamers in RTS need only a few inches movement, and they need that to translate into a mouse pointer moving the whole distance across a screen. With windows configured correctly, and providing 1:1 movement for each mouse count received, its possible to achieve unusably high sensitivities with not even 3000 DPI @1920x1080. The amount of pixels in the screen increasing will obviously increase the DPI needed to have the same "feel" to the movement of the cursor in relation to that of the mouse, but even then, the fact is that 90% of StarCraft 2 professional gaming is broadcast at 1920x1080 and tourney PCs are also set to this for seamless streaming. On top of that, Dual Link DVI isn't technically capable of pushing much more than 1920x1080@120Hz, so the highest end gaming monitors from BenQ and Asus, retain a 1920x1080 resolution.
You wouldn't ever need the 12000 DPI of a Sensei MLG edition unless you had a monitor with a resolution upwards of about 8000x4000. And even then, you'd still be using what would translate as a fairly high sensitivity. If you were a low sense user, you'd need half or less!
As a side, BTW, my personal setting is a DPI of 2300 or 1600 depending on the game (1600 for RTS) @1920x1080, with a Logitech G400. This works for me, but thats a fairly HIGH sensitivity. Every friend of mine who uses my machine remarks on how sensitive it is and I immediately turn the DPI down. You do not need that much. You will likely never need that much. SO STOP BUYING BAZILLION DPI MICE.
*3 – The mouse doesn't actually move the cursor the way your hands and arms move the mouse*
It should be said that generally (Or at least, as of Jan 2013) you want to avoid laser mice. All the Avago sensors currently in use on laser mice suffer from a design flaw wherein the sensor itself has unresolvable negative acceleration on the order of 5%. This is slight but its there and it can be noticed.
Acceleration is a feature, hardware or software, whereby your mouses sensitivity is dynamically altered based on how fast the mouse is providing counts to the operating system. In windows, this is the “Enhance pointer precision” option in the mouse settings window.
This is usually on by default. The reason is that most cheap mice have only 400 or 800 DPI at best, and therefore would feel slow and sluggish to many users if windows didn't apply acceleration.
When the mouse is providing counts to the OS slowly, the OS recognises this as the user trying to move the mouse pointer to something precisely. It therefore turns the sensitivity of the mouse down slightly, so 2 hardware counts might result in one pixel of movement, to aid the user.
When the mouse is providing counts quickly, the OS recognises that the mouse is being flicked or moved quickly, and in that instance, it increases the sensitivity because the user is clearly trying to cover a reasonably large distance with the cursor. In this situation, the mouse might move 2 pixels for one hardware count.
Wait, what did I just say? One count? Two pixels moved? Doesn't that mean its SKIPPED a pixel? Yep! You're damn right thats what it means!
Can you imagine how hard it would be to make precise movements if your mouse cursor randomly skipped a pixel every now and again? Pretty annoying when you're trying to do that precision task in Photoshop or whatever, right?
Well thats why mouse accel exists. If the mouse itself doesn't have enough DPI, then you're either stuck with a slow, sluggish mouse feel where you have to practically throw the mouse around to hit the other side of your screen, or you're stuck with a mouse that skips shit all the time. Mouse accel is a clever solution to both problems at once. Unfortunately, it does come with one horrible side effect.
Because the accel is applied based on the speed of the motion, and because humans can't really move a mouse EXACTLY the same way in a repeatable fashion, it makes it so that when you perform, say, a 5cm movement with the mouse, the cursor might move several different distances based on how fast you performed that motion. This means its difficult, especially under pressure, such as in games, to actually perform the same motion exactly the same way reliably over time. Now, to be clear, any software program can "turn off" mouse acceleration by hooking into the windows setting "enhance pointer precision" and turning it off. You can also code custom mouse accel curves into drivers and have variable accel, again, by modifying the windows accel curve. Some professional quake players actually seek a mouse with no accel, then add in a custom accel curve to which they are accustomed, in quake itself.
This does nothing, and can do nothing, to change the accel characteristics of the mouse itself, which, if it is a laser mouse, or a mouse where the manufacturers have added in accel themselves (For example some Steelseries mice actually adertise accel as a FEATURE) will not be neutral. This is because the Avago ADNS9500 sensor which powers most of the current gen laser mice, and its ADNS9800 successor, which powers the MLG edition Steelseries Sensei, both have an amount of accel which is part of the sensor itself. At present, the only mouse sensors on the market which do not exhibit this, are optical, specifically the Avago ADNS3090 and ADNS3050, used in the G400 and some lower end lines respectively. There are other sensors, such as the Philips twin-eye, however that has its own major flaw, which is that its Z-axis tracking does not register up and down correctly, and this means when replacing the mouse after a wide movement, the cursor jumps in one direction when it shouldn't.
The other part of the puzzle is prediction. This is also called angle snapping and is a result of the mouse or its firmware or software, attempting to "assist" you in drawing straight lines or moving in a straight line, as is sometimes helpful in office applications.
If your mouse has angle snapping, then when you describe a perfect circle with it, the software will force the cursor to the form of a rounded square instead. This is becoming less common with high end mice, however many still have it and its usually a firmware issue that cannot be changed in software. For example, the Logitech G400 comes in two variants – one with prediction, and one without. The change was not publicized and the only way to tell the two apart is the seal on the box – the newer version will have a sticker labelled Logitech. The version with prediction has a blank seal.
*4 – Its too heavy*
Look, there's a very simple way to make a mouse with a bad shape, a bad design, and bad weight distribution feel more “Stable” and less twitchy. That is to make it heavier.
Look at the R.A.T. Mice. Not only do they use a Philips sensor (HELLO Z AXIS TRACKING ISSUES), but they're customizable based on a huge metal frame onto which more and more metal is bolted and more weights are added in to boot. The thing weighs a ton. If you want to use this mouse you're looking at a hard time making swift changes in direction, flicks, and god help you if you want to follow a curving path, because the mouse is so heavy it obtains genuinely significant momentum.
None of this is good. A good mouse should be controllable even with minimal weight because you should have good contact with it and it should be easy to move however you want it to move.
*5 – Its got a stupid gimmick, like customisable shape, or a cherry MX switch as a thumb key, or a billion macro keys.*
Look, macro keys are dumb, for the same reasons stated when we discussed keyboards. Cherry MX Switches have 4mm of travel and aren't suited for mice. There's a REASON we already use microswitches, and its not because MX switches won't fit!
As for customizable shapes or weight – Look, this is, admittedly, a thing where personal preference plays a part, hand size, etc.
Thing is, by not committing to a full product line of shapes, manufacturers make their own lives easier by shifting the burden of doing research on different hand shapes onto the consumer. This would be reasonable if it didn't result in compromised performance of the mice themselves, but it always does, because a single molded part will always be lighter than an entire configurable mechanism (Which is why the RAT weighs so much – 150g with the default panels and no weights added. WITHOUT CABLE. Compare that to a Zowie Mico at 68g without cable, or 88g for the full size AM).
*CONCLUSION* – Nearly all gaming mice have one or all of the above flaws. As with keyboards, most of these flaws are actually marketed as FEATURES.
If you're looking for a gaming mouse, look for one with the Avago 3050 or 3090 sensor. Try to determine from reviews and sites like ESReality if the manufacturer has added prediction or acceleration. If in doubt however, The Logitech G400 is one mouse that comes highly recommended. While initially it was produced with prediction, this was removed in a running change roughly a year ago. (Signified by changing the plastic seal on the box from plain black to one with LOGITECH on it. If there are any in the wild still with all black stickers, they have prediction, don't buy.) The grip is tried and true, and its only real flaws are that while not the heaviest mouse ever, there are lighter options out there, and its quite a long mouse, so you may want to look for a short alternative if your game requires lots of vertical movement. Minor issues on a very good mouse, and not applicable to everyone.
Its also quite cheap and remarkably easy to get hold of.
There are of course others, but do your research, learn to spot the marketers speaking over the engineers (GOLD PLATED USB FOR MINIMUM LATENCY!) and if the review you're reading does not devote at least SOME time to testing for prediction or acceleration, DO NOT buy on the basis of that review alone - find one that does test the accel and prediction!
You use your mouse every day. Don't buy one you'll struggle to make co-operate.
Thank you so much for your thread. You put a lot of work into it and should be awarded. I totally feel you where you talked about the marketers speaking over the engineers. It is a HUGE industry. And I bet they earn a shitload on their products.
ESReality Mouse Score 2007 was a really good article covering the most mice at that time. However they did not continue to review the new mice that came out later. I would love someone to do just that. Hell I would even donate money for them to do it!
Imagine ESReality Mouse Score 2013. With all mice that are new: Zowie, Logitech, Roccat, Coolermaster, Steelseries. It would surely put them all where they should belong. (Likely Roccat would be destroyed in the review though)
I got my bets on Zowie and Coolermaster for a shared 1st place on bang for buck. Logitech comes in 3rd.
Finally. A Mouse Score like that would surely be a product police to bust all the fake/hype products out there. It sometimes feels bad knowing they earn so much money on products that are relatively brainwashing people to buy their products. Especially young gamers who do not know the technical stuff. I get so sad when I see a kid tell his mom to buy him a Roccat Kone in the store. He could buy 3 good mice for that price. (I do not know the current situation about Roccat's products in 2013. They might improve but the Kone era really dissapointed me. God I hate that announcer they use for their product videos "Roccat Kone. Super ninja lightning fast hyper response buttons. Optimized for high level gaming. A little exaggerated from me)
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On February 06 2013 22:36 wo1fwood wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 08:22 GuitarBizarre wrote:On February 06 2013 08:02 wo1fwood wrote:Ok, i'll touch on the writing, and mouse stuff as I know a few things... First, you need to change your tone in the writeup. People are less inclined to take your seriously with the rant-esque tone (even if it is somewhat warranted, gaming peripherals are indeed overblown). As an example take a look at the Truthful Mouse Guide on Overclocked.net. It has some ok information but its very biased and very similar in tone to yours, and because of the tone many people do not take it seriously or just ignore it (also bc he's wrong in a number of instances). About the mouse stuff specifically...There are a number of errors in your post, one about the adns 9500 only being interpolated over 5700cpi, but that has more to do with you not talking about the importance of firmware changes or proprietary firmwares (e.g. Razer products). Honestly I'd say more but you should read this instead: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333648I'm a little too under the radar promoting that article, but it pretty much covers everything you'll need to know. 1 - Noted. Basically agreed with you anyway, but I wrote the first part in that style on a whim. 2 - Your post deals with interpolated CPI and most other stuff pretty well, but am I misguided in thinking there are mice out there that advertise DPI in excess of the sensor specs? Also, can you elaborate on the difference between the ANDS9800 and 9500, since it was my understanding that the 9800 was, as stated, a 9500 with a 2x lens. Edit: Also, I've read your guide (Before posting this in fact), but could you at least point out where or what the errors are, so I know where in your guide to look for corrections? the factory default for the 9800 is 8200cpi. What is sort of less stated around here about mice and cpi,tracking and the like, is that there is a lot of variability in how much ips a sensor can get, and how much cpi and this has a lot to do with how the firmware is configured, along with the lens type. Then you have people like Razer who develop their own firmwares beyond the factory default, but those variations can all have differences in ips, tracking, and even the amount of cpi. Its more of a theoretical bc fiddling with the cpi isn't something that companies tend to do often, but it is possible. The 9800 iirc does use the same hardware as the 9500, but many of the changes to the sensor there are not physical but in the srom/firmware. What you might be remembering about interpolated steps is the 12000ish cpi that was advertised in the original Sensei. In that case specifically, most definitely that is interpolated, and the bad kind at that (counts are likely just doubled, so beyond the native max of the sensor you won't see any benefit, basically a marketing ploy). There are certainly others like the MiCo but I cant remember of the top of my head if the 1600 cpi was interpolated or not. Main thing about interpolation is that it can happen two ways, either in excess of the native cpi max, or below it. You know how the 9500 states that it has increments of 90 up to 5760 in the datasheet? That means that if in your Logitech or equivalent settings you set your CPI to 200, you have set your mouse to a non-native and interpolated step. Here are a few errors i'll pick out adns 5700 cpi - many firmwares factory default is 5670 (90*63) Noted. I was aware of the 90cpi steps beforehand, but ESReality leads me to believe there are two variants of the ANDS9500 and the one in the G9x had 100cpi steps. Will revise anyway, since you're correct I should be looking at the sensor spec not the individual mouse in that example.sensei mlg - uses the 9800 can interpolate up to 16K cpi (exactly like original sensei I would guess) Yep, you're right I misremembered the cpi as 12800...no idea why. Will change.high dpi - there is a lesser understood benefit to having more cpi, and its the ability to track reliably at higher ips I'll look at adding this section in, actually. I hadn't touched on malfunction speeds at all, but they are increasingly being quoted well beyond most players actual needs and this cna be explained within that section.laser mice - i would avoid this quip about avoiding them. FPS players for sure are going to be somewhat annoyed with the variable acceleration in non Philips sensors, but RTS players, I would be surprised if they even noticed that the +/- accel is even there. (has to do with how they use their mice\) You may be right that most people wouldn't notice, but it is noticable, though as you say particularly in FPS. I'm hesitant to remove this point entirely but I'll look at revising the phrasing, since in my eyes its still entirely undesirable to have a non-neutral sensor, even if it is slight. There's better, worse, but there should only be one "Good enough"accel - look at my section on accel for the curve calculations, but, some people do use accel. I know that a lot of quake players have looked into it bc of how that game works. Using or not using it is a personal preference, nothing more (note: quake has in-game accel options as well). Similar to above, I think sensor accel is to be avoided at all times. Its possible to customise in software both the windows accel curve and the accel curve in games like quake, so I think thats the only real way it should be done, in order to avoid awkward problems caused by trying to mix two different accel curves.there are some more, but basically, the reason I said go look at my article is bc half of the issue is that you are not being specific enough in your language so that some important nuances that need to be known aren't touched upon, and therefore your post then does the opposite, and misleads people into an incomplete understanding. As an example, the way you have it formatted to someone paying less attention, they might draw conclusions that mice have that weird acceleration thing, and not make the distinction that its actually windows/os accel that your are talking about ant not variable hardware accel of sensors. Bear in mind this is a draft, the english is by no means finalised and will probably change a lot eventually. Noted though.
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I used the MX518 for years and switched to a new mouse recently (CM Storm Inferno). What I gathered from various forums and reviews was that it has no acceleration, no angle snapping etc. so I basically made my final decision (G400 vs Storm) pretty much entirely based on the imo better button layout and better mousewheel of the Storm. Over the last couple of months I couldn't pinpoint it but I kept feeling slightly "off" in terms of accuracy but wasn't able to tell if I'm just not used to the new mouse/new pad, being bad or if it was something else.
Finally was clever enough to test for the acceleration after reading this article. Sigh. I'm so pissed that something like this gets sold without that information being anywhere even remotely visible.
I bought that thing at the end of October, does anyone here know if that 5% acceleration from the sensor is enough reason to send it back and be compensated for it?
I'm really super annoyed that you can't find information about this anywhere and this shit gets advertised as "a point for point tracking performance". Cooler Master, wtf. Thanks for the guide~
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no see the problem is that its both...iirc the 9500 in the g9x is in fact 5700cpi (and steps of 100) and not 5670/90 bc of the firmware, so it is both mouse specific in certain cases as well.
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Does the CM Storm Inferno or Xornet perform worse or better at different dpi levels like how the Zowie Mico does?
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On February 07 2013 03:15 KAB00000000M wrote: Does the CM Storm Inferno or Xornet perform worse or better at different dpi levels like how the Zowie Mico does?
Without a consistent and reliable testing methodology it's really difficult to collate this kind of information. Most of what is out there is out of date, like ESReality Mousescore 2007, and that rig was a little too homebrew to test everything that matters on a mouse.
Once this writeup is complete, I may contemplate building a test rig and attempting to get proper data out of mice, but I have a feeling that will be difficult to do.
What I'd love to do is create a rig that could manipulate the mouse to describe perfect circles, lines in any direction, and still test the control speeds like the 2007 rig did.
Theoretically I could achieve that by making the "arm" capable of performing a 360 degree rotation on the vertical axis at a set speed, but my problem would then be finding a way to govern that rotation to make sure it was consistent and had sufficient torque to overcome cable drag/snag. The rotation of the mouse itself would cause the percieved direction of the plinth to change, and subsequently I could draw absurdly large circles with consistency at any DPI.
This would essentially make those MS paint circle tests pretty much defunct since there'd be no guesswork about what was hand movement and what was sensor quirks.
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Instead of trying to build something that can hold and move the mouse, you could fix the mouse in place and move something in front of its sensor. That would probably be easier to build.
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Should sticky this OP somewhere in tech help, or add it to a compilation among other similar ones.
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On February 07 2013 07:42 Ropid wrote: Instead of trying to build something that can hold and move the mouse, you could fix the mouse in place and move something in front of its sensor. That would probably be easier to build.
Thats actually the same idea. The thing is, to draw circles or lines of different angles consistently, I would need some way of altering the orientation of the mouse relative to the moving surface. Since the moving surface cannot move in a perfect circle under the sensor, and since the mouse can't move in a perfect circle over the surface, its better to hold the mouse static, move the surface under it in a constant direction at a constant speed, and slowly turn the mouse to draw a circle.
The possible flaw with this would be if the mouse's sensor was not in line with the axis of rotation, which is likely to fuck the whole idea up.
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On February 07 2013 08:01 Divine-Sneaker wrote: Should sticky this OP somewhere in tech help, or add it to a compilation among other similar ones. Its nowhere near finished, so I'd rather not - not until we can get a proper product made and fix all the errors and re-do the formatting.
Edit: Wait, I've totally overthought this. just temporarily attach a pin or nub to the underside of the mouse. Run the nub through a perfectly circular channel and the channel will stop the nub from moving in anything but a predefined path.
All that would need to be controlled would be the mouse would need to face forward, but if there were two nubs we could control both direction of travel and orientation. Speed wouldn't be controllable, but it wouldn't need to be for the tests in question.
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Hello,
Really liking this thread so far.
I want to say that when it come to mice high DPI might be good if you hold your mouse using the finger grip style. Basically this grip style is like the claw grip but with your palm off the mouse - only contact with the mouse is by your finger tips and motion is mainly done by pivoting around the hook of hamate. I do and so I set my DPI to 3500 for SC2 - faster for some shooters - so this allows me to just sort of pilot my hand (mouse moves maybe 4-5cm to cross screen). This is of course with all mouse acceleration and turned off.
So if you use this grip style maybe a fast mouse can help you.
timurStas
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On February 07 2013 13:12 timurStas wrote: Hello,
Really liking this thread so far.
I want to say that when it come to mice high DPI might be good if you hold your mouse using the finger grip style. Basically this grip style is like the claw grip but with your palm off the mouse - only contact with the mouse is by your finger tips and motion is mainly done by pivoting around the hook of hamate. I do and so I set my DPI to 3500 for SC2 - faster for some shooters - so this allows me to just sort of pilot my hand (mouse moves maybe 4-5cm to cross screen). This is of course with all mouse acceleration and turned off.
So if you use this grip style maybe a fast mouse can help you.
timurStas Actually with a DPI of 3500 it only takes 1.4cm to cross the entire screen horizontally, and 0.8 cm to traverse the entire screen vertically. A 4-5cm horizontal screen traverse should take a dpi of about 1100, which is inline with what a lot of people use.
3500 dpi is ridiculously high for sc2, I doubt you're accurate with 1:1, if it's taking you 4-5 cm instead of 1.5 cm to get across the screen your settings are incorrect.
(making the assumption you're on a 1080p screen, if you're on 1440p, multiply distances by 4/3).
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Actually you are right I completely over estimated the movement - its closer to 2cm .
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You can just have high sensitivity on the mouse instead of having so high DPI. You need only enough DPI for pixel per pixel tracking on your desired resolution. (eg. no need for a DPI that measure 2 pixels for 1 pixel movement)
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On February 07 2013 20:51 llIH wrote: You can just have high sensitivity on the mouse instead of having so high DPI. You need only enough DPI for pixel per pixel tracking on your desired resolution. (eg. no need for a DPI that measure 2 pixels for 1 pixel movement)
Thats not what DPI is or does, man.
DPI = CPI = Counts per inch = Sensor resolution in the mouse.
Sensitivity = The way software (Like windows, the game, etc) responds to being given counts from the sensor in the mouse.
You've got the two terms backwards.
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On February 07 2013 22:41 GuitarBizarre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 20:51 llIH wrote: You can just have high sensitivity on the mouse instead of having so high DPI. You need only enough DPI for pixel per pixel tracking on your desired resolution. (eg. no need for a DPI that measure 2 pixels for 1 pixel movement) Thats not what DPI is or does, man. DPI = CPI = Counts per inch = Sensor resolution in the mouse. Sensitivity = The way software (Like windows, the game, etc) responds to being given counts from the sensor in the mouse. You've got the two terms backwards.
I'll elaborate. You don't need higher resolution on the mouse compared to how much you will move it - and that translated on the screen. Why count x+n inches? X = Inches moved n = additional inches counted
If you move your mouse say 2 inches. Why would you have to count 5000 dots per inch? 2 inches on your screen is way less than 5000.
What I am trying to say: You don't need more DPI than to make an inch per inch match with your movement. You can just up the sentivitiy from that. Save money as well. In other words you could say the high DPI is overkill to what resolution and size of movement you have.
Basically. Figure out how much you want your mouse to move on the screen (in sc2 you dont need to think about angles as such for cs). Then calculate: How much movement from mouse pad length translated to how much you want it to travel on the screen. You do not need 5000 DPI for this. If I recall correctly you would need somewhere between 1600-1800. But I can not remember the correct formula. If you want a ridiculous high sensitive movement, where you move your mouse one inch and the cursor moves a lot on the screen it is technically accurate but the "sensitivity"/5000 dots counter per inch will make you miss targets more than it will be helping you to hit them. (x movement per dot counted will give you screen movement in relation to how much the sensitivity is) A little nudge or pulse from your thumb will make you miss.
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On February 07 2013 23:04 llIH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 22:41 GuitarBizarre wrote:On February 07 2013 20:51 llIH wrote: You can just have high sensitivity on the mouse instead of having so high DPI. You need only enough DPI for pixel per pixel tracking on your desired resolution. (eg. no need for a DPI that measure 2 pixels for 1 pixel movement) Thats not what DPI is or does, man. DPI = CPI = Counts per inch = Sensor resolution in the mouse. Sensitivity = The way software (Like windows, the game, etc) responds to being given counts from the sensor in the mouse. You've got the two terms backwards. I'll elaborate. You don't need higher resolution on the mouse compared to how much you will move it - and that translated on the screen. Why count x+n inches? X = Inches moved n = additional inches counted If you move your mouse say 2 inches. Why would you have to count 5000 dots per inch? 2 inches on your screen is way less than 5000. What I am trying to say: You don't need more DPI than to make an inch per inch match with your movement. You can just up the sentivitiy from that. Save money as well. In other words you could say the high DPI is overkill to what resolution and size of movement you have.
If I have my mouse set to 1920dpi, and my windows sensitivity set to 6/11, with mouse accel turned off, it should take exactly 1 inch of movement to move from one side of my 1080p monitor, to the other side.
If I change the sensitivity, as you claim I should be doing, the mouse still sends 1920 counts per inch, but the number of pixels it will move across the screen will change. This means that 1920 counts will not move 1920 pixels, and therefore this means that whatever software is controlling the sensitivity has to either move 2 pixels per count at some point (If the sensitivity has been raised), or has to discard a count (If the sensitivity has been lowered).
Both of these are more imprecise than setting the OS to move 1 pixel for 1 count, and therefore setting a correct sensitivity of 1:1, then controlling the feel of the mouse via variable DPI, is far more accurate. (Assuming the mouse is not flawed).
Therefore, setting windows and any software you are using, to perform 1:1 movement, then using DPI to control the resultant level of sensitivity, is the correct way of doing it.
Sensitivity should not change, DPI should.
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6/11 + no acceleration are prerequisites. I also want 1:1 tracking. You are right. But that is not my point. I am talking about how "overkill" the dpi of mice are. You do not need to spend so much money on a sensor that is theoretically precise when you don't need this precision. I don't think you can play on 5000 dpi under the prerequisites above. Important: Given that we are talking about 1920x1080 resolution. A lower resolution would make it even more overkill. I am considering we are talking about 1920x1080 resolution maximum.
What I am trying to say: Aiming towards a mouse with 1800 dpi rather than a 5000+ dpi. This goes back to me commenting how the marketers are talking over the engineers as the OP mentioned. People are getting tricked to spending way more money than they need to.
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On February 07 2013 23:33 llIH wrote: 6/11 + no acceleration are prerequisites. I also want 1:1 tracking. You are right. But that is not my point. I am talking about how "overkill" the dpi of mice are. You do not need to spend so much money on a sensor that is theoretically precise when you don't need this precision. I don't think you can play on 5000 dpi under the prerequisites above. Important: Given that we are talking about 1920x1080 resolution.
What I am trying to say: Aiming towards a mouse with 1800 dpi rather than a 5000+ dpi.
You have explained yourself poorly. Your first post states the exact opposite of this.
"You can just have high sensitivity on the mouse instead of having so high DPI. You need only enough DPI for pixel per pixel tracking on your desired resolution. (eg. no need for a DPI that measure 2 pixels for 1 pixel movement)"
1 - You can just have high sensitivity on the mouse instead of having so high DPI.
This is wrong because high sensitivity is bad, as we just explained. Having neutral sensitivity is correct. Having sufficient DPI to compensate for neutral sensitivity is therefore desirable, though you're right you don't need 5000. The point is, you said high sensitivity was desirable, and it absolutely is not.
2 - You need only enough DPI for pixel per pixel tracking on your desired resolution. (eg. no need for a DPI that measure 2 pixels for 1 pixel movement)"
The part of this sentence that isn't in brackets makes sense. But then you state that you can get a "DPI" that moves 2 pixels for one pixel movement. DPI does not and cannot do this. sensitivity and interpolation do this.
Therefore I concluded you were treating DPI as if it were sensitivity and sensitivity as if it were DPI, meaning your whole description was backwards.
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Yeah I did a lot of mistakes there. You pointed them out. But we agree. I said high sensitivity by an accident. Most people have low sensitivity. As in lower than what is 6/11 or lower than standard from a game sensitivity. I consider my sensitivity high compared to the standard value. So yes this is relative - and therefore a mistake by me.
Increasing dpi to a value that fits. Totally agree. I am interested to find out exactly how much I need. And what people need. (I recall 1600 or 1800) I bet someone in here will reply soon with the formula. (eg. dpi needed for left border to right border movement with desired length of movement on the mouse pad on desired resolution[usually 1920x1080])
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By the way. I wonder what is the minimal movement a human hand can do with a mouse. That would also be interesting to consider! :D
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On February 07 2013 23:46 llIH wrote: Yeah I did a lot of mistakes there. You pointed them out. But we agree. I said high sensitivity by an accident. Most people have low sensitivity. As in lower than what is 6/11 or lower than standard from a game sensitivity. I consider my sensitivity high compared to the standard value. So yes this is relative - and therefore a mistake by me.
Increasing dpi to a value that fits. Totally agree. I am interested to find out exactly how much I need. And what people need. (I recall 1600 or 1800) I bet someone in here will reply soon with the formula. (eg. dpi needed for left border to right border movement with desired length of movement on the mouse pad on desired resolution[usually 1920x1080])
Wo1fwood dealt with that here.
Bear in mind he is dealing with 3D enviroments mainly. When the action takes place on a 2D plane (As in starcraft), then the calculations are very different (and much more simple).
For 3D games: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333648#v
For 2D games: Correct DPI = Screen resolution divided by desired movement distance in inches.
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On February 08 2013 00:13 GuitarBizarre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 23:46 llIH wrote: Yeah I did a lot of mistakes there. You pointed them out. But we agree. I said high sensitivity by an accident. Most people have low sensitivity. As in lower than what is 6/11 or lower than standard from a game sensitivity. I consider my sensitivity high compared to the standard value. So yes this is relative - and therefore a mistake by me.
Increasing dpi to a value that fits. Totally agree. I am interested to find out exactly how much I need. And what people need. (I recall 1600 or 1800) I bet someone in here will reply soon with the formula. (eg. dpi needed for left border to right border movement with desired length of movement on the mouse pad on desired resolution[usually 1920x1080])
Wo1fwood dealt with that here. Bear in mind he is dealing with 3D enviroments mainly. When the action takes place on a 2D plane (As in starcraft), then the calculations are very different (and much more simple). For 3D games: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333648#vFor 2D games: Correct DPI = Screen resolution divided by desired movement distance in inches.
Do you mean: amount of pixels cursor traveled (eg. from right to left border on screen) divided on inches desired for mouse to move on mouse pad for that pixel distance?
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On February 08 2013 00:25 llIH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 00:13 GuitarBizarre wrote:On February 07 2013 23:46 llIH wrote: Yeah I did a lot of mistakes there. You pointed them out. But we agree. I said high sensitivity by an accident. Most people have low sensitivity. As in lower than what is 6/11 or lower than standard from a game sensitivity. I consider my sensitivity high compared to the standard value. So yes this is relative - and therefore a mistake by me.
Increasing dpi to a value that fits. Totally agree. I am interested to find out exactly how much I need. And what people need. (I recall 1600 or 1800) I bet someone in here will reply soon with the formula. (eg. dpi needed for left border to right border movement with desired length of movement on the mouse pad on desired resolution[usually 1920x1080])
Wo1fwood dealt with that here. Bear in mind he is dealing with 3D enviroments mainly. When the action takes place on a 2D plane (As in starcraft), then the calculations are very different (and much more simple). For 3D games: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333648#vFor 2D games: Correct DPI = Screen resolution divided by desired movement distance in inches. Do you mean: Screen resolution as in a cursor travelling from right to left border of the screen devided on movement distance of the mouse on the mouse pad in inches? Yes, for 2d planes, like starcraft, the desktop, etc, the correct DPI is determined by the number of inches you want to move the mouse, to move the cursor across the whole screen from right to left, divided by the resolution of the screen.
So if I had a 1920x1080 screen, and wanted it to take 4 inches of mouse movement to move from one side to the other, I would set my DPI to 480.
Obviously in practice this is fairly academic. Set your dpi to whatever the fuck feels right.
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On February 08 2013 00:36 GuitarBizarre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 00:25 llIH wrote:On February 08 2013 00:13 GuitarBizarre wrote:On February 07 2013 23:46 llIH wrote: Yeah I did a lot of mistakes there. You pointed them out. But we agree. I said high sensitivity by an accident. Most people have low sensitivity. As in lower than what is 6/11 or lower than standard from a game sensitivity. I consider my sensitivity high compared to the standard value. So yes this is relative - and therefore a mistake by me.
Increasing dpi to a value that fits. Totally agree. I am interested to find out exactly how much I need. And what people need. (I recall 1600 or 1800) I bet someone in here will reply soon with the formula. (eg. dpi needed for left border to right border movement with desired length of movement on the mouse pad on desired resolution[usually 1920x1080])
Wo1fwood dealt with that here. Bear in mind he is dealing with 3D enviroments mainly. When the action takes place on a 2D plane (As in starcraft), then the calculations are very different (and much more simple). For 3D games: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=333648#vFor 2D games: Correct DPI = Screen resolution divided by desired movement distance in inches. Do you mean: Screen resolution as in a cursor travelling from right to left border of the screen devided on movement distance of the mouse on the mouse pad in inches? Yes, for 2d planes, like starcraft, the desktop, etc, the correct DPI is determined by the number of inches you want to move the mouse, to move the cursor across the whole screen from right to left, divided by the resolution of the screen. So if I had a 1920x1080 screen, and wanted it to take 4 inches of mouse movement to move from one side to the other, I would set my DPI to 480. Obviously in practice this is fairly academic. Set your dpi to whatever the fuck feels right.
Thanks.
I just did some calculations. Noticed that even 2000 dpi might be way too much for most people. (1 inch for a 1920 pixel / left-right). ~2000
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Yes, 2000 DPI is considered a VERY fast setting, and most people will find it uncomfortable. I was using 1600 DPI for awhile, and it was ok, but eventually I switched to 800 DPI and it felt much better.
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Yeah. I used to use 2300, and had kind of adjusted, but now my normal DPI is 1600 (Simply because the sensor in my mouse has a native, non-interpolated 1600dpi step and I wanted to see if I had been getting interpolation), and having adjusted to that, 2300 feels twitchy and imprecise.
That said, 2300 is still usable, just, as noted, too sensitive for some.
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On February 08 2013 00:56 GuitarBizarre wrote: Yeah. I used to use 2300, and had kind of adjusted, but now my normal DPI is 1600 (Simply because the sensor in my mouse has a native, non-interpolated 1600dpi step and I wanted to see if I had been getting interpolation), and having adjusted to that, 2300 feels twitchy and imprecise.
That said, 2300 is still usable, just, as noted, too sensitive for some.
What mouse do you have? It sounds like something I would be interested to get.
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Logitech G400. Its DPI is adjustable over a very wide range.
Interestingly, however, I may be wrong about my personal mouse, I might have to experiment with 1800dpi, since the whitepaper for the sensor says the standard DPI steps are 1800 and 3500, but bst on ESReality, maker of the Ninox Aurora and Velocity mice coming out soon, says:but bst on ESReality, maker of the Ninox Aurora and Velocity mice coming out soon, says:
Recent firmware changes have changed the default steps to 4000 dpi is a native setting on the 3090 sensor since a few months ago since Avago updated the SROM, the native DPI steps are now: 800/1600/3200/4000
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On February 08 2013 01:05 GuitarBizarre wrote: Logitech G400.
Thanks. You know the non interpolated step you talked about. Do you know of other mice that have this?
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On February 08 2013 01:12 llIH wrote:Thanks. You know the non interpolated step you talked about. Do you know of other mice that have this?
Its dependent on the sensor, and the default manufacturer's DPI steps. Again, according to bst
Well its pretty complicated, I'm still learning about it atm.
I don't really know how it works in the sensor, but from what I understand, when Avago makes the sensor and sets the DPI steps, its done really thoroughly, to rule out any errors or unwanted behaviour.
So although it may still be interpolated in the end, its better left to Avago, who spend a lot of time and money to get it right. From what I've learned so far, the coding can be quite complex, in order to iron out any problems. Also I think there may be more control at the sensor level, than at the MCU level, there may be things that can be done there that can't be corrected by the MCU.
I think thats why there can be a lot of difference between different mice using the 3090 sensor, because the DPI steps offered by the sensor are only 1800 and 3500, so each manufacturer has different ways of creating more DPI steps from it.
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United Kingdom20163 Posts
I switched from ~450dpi to ~800 recently, needed a little more than 450 to be comfortable with much faster mechanics in sc2, but i cant imagine anybody playing anywhere near optimally with more than 1.2-1.5k or so, actually i pretty firmly believe ~600-1k DPI is best range for micro and working with a 2d 1920x1080 RTS interface like sc2, it's just that it doesnt really matter as much as all the other things in the game in terms of making you win, it only helps what you already have. Lastshadow for example beating a midmaster zerg without using a keyboard in a game that went like 20 minutes long IIRC, but being able to snap halfway across the screen and select a marine in a tiny fraction of a second is invaluable for micro and lower DPI's are simply better at that, without realistically limiting you in any way unless you go far too low
(wrote this at end of last page, went afk, oops)
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On February 08 2013 01:29 Cyro wrote: I switched from ~450dpi to ~800 recently, needed a little more than 450 to be comfortable with much faster mechanics in sc2, but i cant imagine anybody playing anywhere near optimally with more than 1.2-1.5k or so, actually i pretty firmly believe ~600-1k DPI is best range for micro and working with a 2d 1920x1080 RTS interface like sc2, it's just that it doesnt really matter as much as all the other things in the game in terms of making you win, it only helps what you already have. Lastshadow for example beating a midmaster zerg without using a keyboard in a game that went like 20 minutes long IIRC, but being able to snap halfway across the screen and select a marine in a tiny fraction of a second is invaluable for micro and lower DPI's are simply better at that, without realistically limiting you in any way unless you go far too low
(wrote this at end of last page, went afk, oops) I dunno. I think people have different preferences. I tend to favour interfaces and items, even in bikes and guitars, where I have to exercise control to reign in a thing that is slightly too much, where I can easily go too far or push too hard.
Other people prefer to force things to do what they want without worrying about going too far, perhaps at the expense of having to force things a little more.
Diff'rent strokes.
Edit: Thats a really convoluted way of doing things. Let me rephrase:
Some people prefer the equipment to be their limiting factor, and to push past it or exercise their will upon it to reach exactly the level of performance they require.
Other people, like me, prefer themselves to be the limiting factor, and to have to reign in a thing with too much capability to bring it to the level of performance they require.
Its just a case of some people preferring "barely enough" and others preferring "easily enough".
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Anyways. Appreciate your work and explanation of several stuff. Looking forward to several coverings of mice out there.
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On February 07 2013 23:56 llIH wrote: By the way. I wonder what is the minimal movement a human hand can do with a mouse. That would also be interesting to consider! :D
My guess it is somewhere in the hundreds of micrometers range for someone who does something with fine hand motion for a living - think surgeon, dentist, watchmaker.
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On February 08 2013 06:03 timurStas wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 23:56 llIH wrote: By the way. I wonder what is the minimal movement a human hand can do with a mouse. That would also be interesting to consider! :D My guess it is somewhere in the hundreds of micrometers range for someone who does something with fine hand motion for a living - think surgeon, dentist, watchmaker.
This is quite likely, and is also why we see players play professionally with such incredibly sensitive setups. Day9 is one example, he typically likes his setup even more sensitive than me. On the other hand, Artosis has everything set quite slow.
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Thank you for this information!!!
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United Kingdom20163 Posts
I dont like the association between low/high DPI and slow/fast, it seems like a misconception to me. It doesnt take notably longer for the mouse cursor to cross the screen within X accuracy
It does take more hand/arm movement and energy, but i played 40 or so games yesterday with no negative effects, pain or discomfort @800dpi and if i had used 360/450dpi steps like i used to, it would only cause minor discomfort (aching in upper right arm)
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On February 11 2013 04:55 Cyro wrote: I dont like the association between low/high DPI and slow/fast, it seems like a misconception to me. It doesnt take notably longer for the mouse cursor to cross the screen within X accuracy
It does take more hand/arm movement and energy, but i played 40 or so games yesterday with no negative effects, pain or discomfort @800dpi and if i had used 360/450dpi steps like i used to, it would only cause minor discomfort (aching in upper right arm)
I don't understand, nobody is saying that. But it is fact that, all other things being equal, higher dpi means the cursor moves further and therefore faster, for the same hand motion, yes?
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At 1080p 1:1 6/11. If you pivot from your elbow, you're going to be most effective below 1k dpi. If you pivot from the wrist you'll be somewhere between 1.5k and 2k. Grip style and mouse shape also have an impact. Bigger(longer) mice require higher dpi with a fingertip grip+wrist pivot, because there's less travel forward and backward under your palm. That's why fingertip grip people usually like small mice.
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On February 11 2013 06:32 SoulWager wrote: At 1080p 1:1 6/11. If you pivot from your elbow, you're going to be most effective below 1k dpi. If you pivot from the wrist you'll be somewhere between 1.5k and 2k. Grip style and mouse shape also have an impact. Bigger(longer) mice require higher dpi with a fingertip grip+wrist pivot, because there's less travel forward and backward under your palm. That's why fingertip grip people usually like small mice. I think you are slightly overestimating the amount of CPI you need. I use 800 and I can easily traverse my entire screen (1920x1200) with wrist movements only.
On a similar note, people really need to read the article I wrote, either for the first time, or a second time as it seems that some fundamental ideas around these things are still being missed by a lot of people.
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On February 11 2013 08:09 wo1fwood wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 06:32 SoulWager wrote: At 1080p 1:1 6/11. If you pivot from your elbow, you're going to be most effective below 1k dpi. If you pivot from the wrist you'll be somewhere between 1.5k and 2k. Grip style and mouse shape also have an impact. Bigger(longer) mice require higher dpi with a fingertip grip+wrist pivot, because there's less travel forward and backward under your palm. That's why fingertip grip people usually like small mice. I think you are slightly overestimating the amount of CPI you need. I use 800 and I can easily traverse my entire screen (1920x1200) with wrist movements only. On a similar note, people really need to read the article I wrote, either for the first time, or a second time as it seems that some fundamental ideas around these things are still being missed by a lot of people.
You critiqued my writing style before. May I possibly critique yours?
Instead of continually recommending your own work, why don't you link directly to the relevant sections, or copypaste them to give context? Few people are going to read through many, many screens of your article, and take the time to comprehend many tables and formulae, simply in order to satisfy you. Even fewer of the people who DO read through it all, are going to be the people you seem to be so annoyed at for not reading it. Not only that, but you continually phrase this recommendation as if it is a correction or rebuttal, which is needlessly antagonistic and not in the slightest bit helpful given the lack of direction you provide to the reader. (And in fact your tone in this last comment is rather derisive)
I appreciate you have a lot to say on the matter and that much if not all of it does exist within that article, but you are coming off as abrasive and arrogant by refusing to actually engage in the discussion or provide genuine feedback beyond continually reminding us of the existence of another source.
I made this thread in order to obtain help in doing what I want to do, which is to help others. You seem to have taken the attempt as a direct challenge to your own work, and thus far, while your article has been helpful in many ways, I have to say that your comments in this thread have not been exactly constructive, save for when I requested specifically that they be so. I'd like to request that if you have further input it would be kind of you, if not outright excellent of you, to actually give it directly, or quote the relevant reference, rather than simply pointing to an entire, extremely lengthy, article of reference elsewhere.
I would say this is doubly so given that I have asked you to clarify once already, and in PM already explained to you that I find some sections of your article a little heavy going re: their practical application to this article. If you were quoting the relevant pieces to me and others, a dialogue could form which would let me and others ask questions and confirm directly anything we don't understand or might have missed on a readthrough of your article, which would doubtless make for a superior article on my part and better understanding on the part of others.
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SteelSeries 7G wristrest is actually removable, unlike what OP suggests. Without the wristrest it's basically a 6Gv2 with the fancy extra ports. The wristrest also fits a normal 6Gv2.
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I can't agree more. Pro gear doesn't make a pro player
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
I'd disagree on one point of yours in a very special case, such that it doesn't effect the majority of people in anyway, macro keys on nice. I have a friend who has problems with his right hand so cannot use the keyboard properly, in order to get round this he has to use the mouse macro keys which he has rebound to keyboard keys.
Other than that, one of the best reads on tl for a while, I laughed like fuck at some of the swearing.
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On February 11 2013 20:37 mizU wrote:I can't agree more. Pro gear doesn't make a pro player Wannabe-pro gear doesn't make a pro player!
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