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On February 03 2024 05:39 Philippe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 05:28 JJH777 wrote:
I'm surprised Reynor didn't get a spot for winning Gamers8. I also hope that if a player qualifies through multiple events the extra spots are either added to the open qualifier or taken from the combined EPT standings. Giving a bunch of extra spots to EU because Serral and probably Clem will take multiple tournament top 4 spots would be dumb. That point would litterally never be discussed if any of the Koreans won one of the Season Finals, so for me it's not as a problem as some make it to be. What I would check is whether the other players actually gain enough points to actually qualify.
If it is by the EPT Rulebook, the Global Standings will fill the slots. Which I find a shame, since I understand the logic to instead fill it with the region of the player that locked multiple slots. It is basically a way to say "your region has this amazing player, which makes it harder for everyone else to qualify". It compensates that a bit.
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Northern Ireland25960 Posts
On February 03 2024 05:51 Crocolisk Dundee wrote:
I don't feel comfortable watching any of this, knowing where the money comes from.
*Edit* Double post
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Northern Ireland25960 Posts
On February 03 2024 05:51 Crocolisk Dundee wrote:
I don't feel comfortable watching any of this, knowing where the money comes from.
You and me both sir!
I’m perfectly happy with my beloved game dwindling over time, such things happen.
Beats being kept alive as part of a sportswashing propaganda exercise anyway.
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I'm going to mouth off this once, because this annoys me probably more than it should, and it was a popular sentiment last time around. If youre still watching sc2 in 2024 you should be thanking on bended knee that some nephew of some saudi prince watches sc2.
literally every financial or tech company can trace its funding back to saudi sovereign wealth fund, and you guys are ok with that, but when it comes to a grassroots scene like sc2 "ohhh no thats where i draw the line. I'm ok with 8 year olds making my iphone and 10 year olds mining rare earth minerals for my macbook but noo, a donation to the SC2 prize pool is where I draw the line."
since you're such great people and not just virtue signalers, why dont i help you out - post your employer and I'll help you trace their funding back to saudi money, and you can update us when you quit your job 
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Northern Ireland25960 Posts
On February 03 2024 07:15 luxon wrote:I'm going to mouth off this once, because this annoys me probably more than it should, and it was a popular sentiment last time around. If youre still watching sc2 in 2024 you should be thanking on bended knee that some nephew of some saudi prince watches sc2. literally every financial or tech company can trace its funding back to saudi sovereign wealth fund, and you guys are ok with that, but when it comes to a grassroots scene like sc2 "ohhh no thats where i draw the line. I'm ok with 8 year olds making my iphone and 10 year olds mining rare earth minerals for my macbook but noo, a donation to the SC2 prize pool is where I draw the line." since you're such great people and not just virtue signalers, why dont i help you out - post your employer and I'll help you trace their funding back to saudi money, and you can update us when you quit your job
A ridiculous bar to set but hey you do you.
I’ll go live off the grid in a commune somewhere, or apparently be a hypocrite which are really the only two options you present here.
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On February 03 2024 07:21 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 07:15 luxon wrote:I'm going to mouth off this once, because this annoys me probably more than it should, and it was a popular sentiment last time around. If youre still watching sc2 in 2024 you should be thanking on bended knee that some nephew of some saudi prince watches sc2. literally every financial or tech company can trace its funding back to saudi sovereign wealth fund, and you guys are ok with that, but when it comes to a grassroots scene like sc2 "ohhh no thats where i draw the line. I'm ok with 8 year olds making my iphone and 10 year olds mining rare earth minerals for my macbook but noo, a donation to the SC2 prize pool is where I draw the line." since you're such great people and not just virtue signalers, why dont i help you out - post your employer and I'll help you trace their funding back to saudi money, and you can update us when you quit your job A ridiculous bar to set but hey you do you. I’ll go live off the grid in a commune somewhere, or apparently be a hypocrite which are really the only two options you present here.
One has to ask self whether other sponsors could have stepped up, but didn't ? Because some being inactive is exactly why room was left for "dirty money". If morals paid bills, everybody would be a billionaire.
I can see debating about it but it should be a separate topic. I prefer to focus about the qualifying conditions there.
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Love me some sportswashing.
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Northern Ireland25960 Posts
On February 03 2024 07:36 Philippe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 07:21 WombaT wrote:On February 03 2024 07:15 luxon wrote:I'm going to mouth off this once, because this annoys me probably more than it should, and it was a popular sentiment last time around. If youre still watching sc2 in 2024 you should be thanking on bended knee that some nephew of some saudi prince watches sc2. literally every financial or tech company can trace its funding back to saudi sovereign wealth fund, and you guys are ok with that, but when it comes to a grassroots scene like sc2 "ohhh no thats where i draw the line. I'm ok with 8 year olds making my iphone and 10 year olds mining rare earth minerals for my macbook but noo, a donation to the SC2 prize pool is where I draw the line." since you're such great people and not just virtue signalers, why dont i help you out - post your employer and I'll help you trace their funding back to saudi money, and you can update us when you quit your job A ridiculous bar to set but hey you do you. I’ll go live off the grid in a commune somewhere, or apparently be a hypocrite which are really the only two options you present here. One has to ask self whether other sponsors could have stepped up, but didn't ? Because some being inactive is exactly why room was left for "dirty money". If morals paid bills, everybody would be a billionaire. I can see debating about it but it should be a separate topic. I prefer to focus about the qualifying conditions there.
I’d rather continue to complain in every tangentially related topic, personally, but hey we’re all different
If someone deigns to make a specific thread I’ll contain it within those confines but in the interim I’ll give my half a dollar elsewhere 
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On February 03 2024 05:52 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 05:39 Philippe wrote:On February 03 2024 05:28 JJH777 wrote:
I'm surprised Reynor didn't get a spot for winning Gamers8. I also hope that if a player qualifies through multiple events the extra spots are either added to the open qualifier or taken from the combined EPT standings. Giving a bunch of extra spots to EU because Serral and probably Clem will take multiple tournament top 4 spots would be dumb. That point would litterally never be discussed if any of the Koreans won one of the Season Finals, so for me it's not as a problem as some make it to be. What I would check is whether the other players actually gain enough points to actually qualify. If it is by the EPT Rulebook, the Global Standings will fill the slots. Which I find a shame, since I understand the logic to instead fill it with the region of the player that locked multiple slots. It is basically a way to say "your region has this amazing player, which makes it harder for everyone else to qualify". It compensates that a bit.
Why does Serral being good mean guys like Heromarine/spirit/Skillous/Lambo should be guaranteed to qualify over Classic/Ragnarok/Gumiho/Creator/DRG? While I'd favor the Koreans the EU players would still be capable of qualifying with an upset in an open qualifier.
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I'm going to watch the tournament and enjoy it and I don't care where the money came from. No one's asking for my devotion and support to Saudi royalty. They want to support the same game I do? Great. Better than spending it on things that could hurt people.
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On February 03 2024 09:52 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 07:36 Philippe wrote:On February 03 2024 07:21 WombaT wrote:On February 03 2024 07:15 luxon wrote:I'm going to mouth off this once, because this annoys me probably more than it should, and it was a popular sentiment last time around. If youre still watching sc2 in 2024 you should be thanking on bended knee that some nephew of some saudi prince watches sc2. literally every financial or tech company can trace its funding back to saudi sovereign wealth fund, and you guys are ok with that, but when it comes to a grassroots scene like sc2 "ohhh no thats where i draw the line. I'm ok with 8 year olds making my iphone and 10 year olds mining rare earth minerals for my macbook but noo, a donation to the SC2 prize pool is where I draw the line." since you're such great people and not just virtue signalers, why dont i help you out - post your employer and I'll help you trace their funding back to saudi money, and you can update us when you quit your job A ridiculous bar to set but hey you do you. I’ll go live off the grid in a commune somewhere, or apparently be a hypocrite which are really the only two options you present here. One has to ask self whether other sponsors could have stepped up, but didn't ? Because some being inactive is exactly why room was left for "dirty money". If morals paid bills, everybody would be a billionaire. I can see debating about it but it should be a separate topic. I prefer to focus about the qualifying conditions there. I’d rather continue to complain in every tangentially related topic, personally, but hey we’re all different If someone deigns to make a specific thread I’ll contain it within those confines but in the interim I’ll give my half a dollar elsewhere
it is probably a "Games Industry" topic and belongs there.
https://tl.net/forum/general/540389-the-games-industry-and-atvi
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On February 03 2024 07:15 luxon wrote:literally every financial or tech company can trace its funding back to saudi sovereign wealth fund, and you guys are ok with that, but when it comes to a grassroots scene like sc2 "ohhh no thats where i draw the line. I'm ok with 8 year olds making my iphone and 10 year olds mining rare earth minerals for my macbook but noo, a donation to the SC2 prize pool is where I draw the line." since you're such great people and not just virtue signalers, why dont i help you out - post your employer and I'll help you trace their funding back to saudi money, and you can update us when you quit your job
Weird hill to die on... The parallels to child labour don't really track, because there is simply a lack of options (and don't tell me that I could just NOT buy a smartphone/computer)
But the main issue with your argument is not where the money comes from, but what the money does: This is a strategy by many authoritarian governments to polish the image in the world and distract from the atrocities committed there.
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Northern Ireland25960 Posts
On February 03 2024 10:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 09:52 WombaT wrote:On February 03 2024 07:36 Philippe wrote:On February 03 2024 07:21 WombaT wrote:On February 03 2024 07:15 luxon wrote:I'm going to mouth off this once, because this annoys me probably more than it should, and it was a popular sentiment last time around. If youre still watching sc2 in 2024 you should be thanking on bended knee that some nephew of some saudi prince watches sc2. literally every financial or tech company can trace its funding back to saudi sovereign wealth fund, and you guys are ok with that, but when it comes to a grassroots scene like sc2 "ohhh no thats where i draw the line. I'm ok with 8 year olds making my iphone and 10 year olds mining rare earth minerals for my macbook but noo, a donation to the SC2 prize pool is where I draw the line." since you're such great people and not just virtue signalers, why dont i help you out - post your employer and I'll help you trace their funding back to saudi money, and you can update us when you quit your job A ridiculous bar to set but hey you do you. I’ll go live off the grid in a commune somewhere, or apparently be a hypocrite which are really the only two options you present here. One has to ask self whether other sponsors could have stepped up, but didn't ? Because some being inactive is exactly why room was left for "dirty money". If morals paid bills, everybody would be a billionaire. I can see debating about it but it should be a separate topic. I prefer to focus about the qualifying conditions there. I’d rather continue to complain in every tangentially related topic, personally, but hey we’re all different If someone deigns to make a specific thread I’ll contain it within those confines but in the interim I’ll give my half a dollar elsewhere it is probably a "Games Industry" topic and belongs there. https://tl.net/forum/general/540389-the-games-industry-and-atvi
Yeah perhaps, although that thread is mostly about nuts and bolts business dealings. Probably the best thread without a standalone new one yeah
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Top 4 from Katowice and Dreamhack Dallas is not right. Should be top 2 at most. What's the point of grinding for EPT points if making top 4 in a tournament is all you need? We shouldn't have open qualifiers either if it's supposed to be the biggest tournament of the year.
As for the prize pool, happy that the players will get one final chance at taking home a big cheque. I don't care whether the money is from Saudi Arabia or not. Every country has committed war crimes presently or in the past and this whole "Saudi Arabia bad" narrative needs to stop.
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On February 03 2024 10:24 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 05:52 Balnazza wrote:On February 03 2024 05:39 Philippe wrote:On February 03 2024 05:28 JJH777 wrote:
I'm surprised Reynor didn't get a spot for winning Gamers8. I also hope that if a player qualifies through multiple events the extra spots are either added to the open qualifier or taken from the combined EPT standings. Giving a bunch of extra spots to EU because Serral and probably Clem will take multiple tournament top 4 spots would be dumb. That point would litterally never be discussed if any of the Koreans won one of the Season Finals, so for me it's not as a problem as some make it to be. What I would check is whether the other players actually gain enough points to actually qualify. If it is by the EPT Rulebook, the Global Standings will fill the slots. Which I find a shame, since I understand the logic to instead fill it with the region of the player that locked multiple slots. It is basically a way to say "your region has this amazing player, which makes it harder for everyone else to qualify". It compensates that a bit. Why does Serral being good mean guys like Heromarine/spirit/Skillous/Lambo should be guaranteed to qualify over Classic/Ragnarok/Gumiho/Creator/DRG? While I'd favor the Koreans the EU players would still be capable of qualifying with an upset in an open qualifier.
There is no 100% correct solution. It is a matter of taste. I personally always liked if a player somewhat has a benefit from getting multiple slots - in this case, strengthening his region. Which of course is a very marginal benefits. It also would give more meaning to the different regional rankings - and frankly, after a year and a half of grinding it shouldn't come down to some open qualifiers to decide more and more slots (worst case scenario we are talking about what, six slots more or something like that?)
On February 03 2024 11:19 geokilla wrote:
As for the prize pool, happy that the players will get one final chance at taking home a big cheque. I don't care whether the money is from Saudi Arabia or not. Every country has committed war crimes presently or in the past and this whole "Saudi Arabia bad" narrative needs to stop.
That's not even remotely what this is about. If you seriously think Saudi Arabia is just another country...just say "I don't care much about politics and don't know anything about it, I just want to enjoy some Starcraft". That is a completly justifiable stand. Take morality out of it instead of trying a very weird attempt of moral high-grounding...
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Northern Ireland25960 Posts
On February 03 2024 11:53 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 10:24 JJH777 wrote:On February 03 2024 05:52 Balnazza wrote:On February 03 2024 05:39 Philippe wrote:On February 03 2024 05:28 JJH777 wrote:
I'm surprised Reynor didn't get a spot for winning Gamers8. I also hope that if a player qualifies through multiple events the extra spots are either added to the open qualifier or taken from the combined EPT standings. Giving a bunch of extra spots to EU because Serral and probably Clem will take multiple tournament top 4 spots would be dumb. That point would litterally never be discussed if any of the Koreans won one of the Season Finals, so for me it's not as a problem as some make it to be. What I would check is whether the other players actually gain enough points to actually qualify. If it is by the EPT Rulebook, the Global Standings will fill the slots. Which I find a shame, since I understand the logic to instead fill it with the region of the player that locked multiple slots. It is basically a way to say "your region has this amazing player, which makes it harder for everyone else to qualify". It compensates that a bit. Why does Serral being good mean guys like Heromarine/spirit/Skillous/Lambo should be guaranteed to qualify over Classic/Ragnarok/Gumiho/Creator/DRG? While I'd favor the Koreans the EU players would still be capable of qualifying with an upset in an open qualifier. There is no 100% correct solution. It is a matter of taste. I personally always liked if a player somewhat has a benefit from getting multiple slots - in this case, strengthening his region. Which of course is a very marginal benefits. It also would give more meaning to the different regional rankings - and frankly, after a year and a half of grinding it shouldn't come down to some open qualifiers to decide more and more slots (worst case scenario we are talking about what, six slots more or something like that?) Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 11:19 geokilla wrote:
As for the prize pool, happy that the players will get one final chance at taking home a big cheque. I don't care whether the money is from Saudi Arabia or not. Every country has committed war crimes presently or in the past and this whole "Saudi Arabia bad" narrative needs to stop. That's not even remotely what this is about. If you seriously think Saudi Arabia is just another country...just say "I don't care much about politics and don't know anything about it, I just want to enjoy some Starcraft". That is a completly justifiable stand. Take morality out of it instead of trying a very weird attempt of moral high-grounding...
I’m unsure of what the best option is personally, I’m only certain that I think qualifying metrics should be transparently communicated ahead of time.
The GSL giving as many direct spots as Europe, or NA/elsewhere combined is also a bit off IMO. Especially when the Korean scene is already struggling, but that’s just me nitpicking I don’t think it’s particularly egregious.
And yes also agreed. It’s a nakedly political, image-improving process, at the behest of a monarchical ruling class of a nation state. If one wants to sidestep the discussion entirely fair enough, but less of the whataboutery would be nice.
Yes the US, my nation too have done shitty things in my lifetime, but Blizzard is not calling the shots on US foreign policy, or ESL historically that of Germany. These Saudi ventures are inextricable from the oppressive state itself, hence the reaction from some.
And, separate from that they don’t care about the game, they want to dangle some flashy lights so we go all deer in the headlights and forget there’s a giant truck bearing down.
If they cared about the game they’d support it outside their own pet project, but, as they don’t care about the game they don’t. I’m not going to be a cheerleader for the equivalent of pocket change being thrown for a singular tournament.
As a great football fan, of the age and liquidity to actually go to a World Cup, oh great it’s in the hotbed of football that is Qatar, and yay the one after next is in Saudi Arabia. Great, I am beside myself with excitement to make those particular pilgrimages.
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I can't wrap my head around people who value their entertainment above not supporting a government that tortured and murdered a journalist in an embassy in another country, then chopped up his body into little pieces with a bone saw to hide the evidence.
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On February 03 2024 05:51 Crocolisk Dundee wrote:
I don't feel comfortable watching any of this, knowing where the money comes from.
If you think THIS company is bad, wait until you find out about... all of them!
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Kinda sad IEM Katowice was only the Blizzcon-level world championship for 3 years 2021-2023, and one of those years it was "devalued" as an online tournament due to COVID. Funnily enough during those 3 years the winners were all different foreigners.
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Personally, I think of that bad money / good money thing quite relaxed.
They can "buy" a gorgeous prize pool with their money, I don't care too much, where all the bucks come from. Or, as someone said above "better they spend it for Starcraft Tournament than for something, that can hurt people".
What's VERY important to me is, that they can't buy my political opinion or my ethics/moral feeling.
For me, this perspective helps a lot trying not to be a hypocrite and splitting countries in evil or good but instead make distinctions in the different aspects of countries like authoritarian/democratic, peaceful/bellicose, liberal/oppressive,racist/tolerant etc.
I salute the engagement for Starcraft/E-Sports, I don't salute the Saudi royalty.
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EPT
