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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On August 08 2020 08:48 Ben... wrote:
The baneling nerf was badly needed so that's good. In both PvZ and TvZ we were seeing ridiculous numbers of banelings being made and even when poorly used they seemed to be cost effective. We shouldn't be watching immortal/archon and mech armies getting wiped out by banelings. It's just silly.
The protoss air buffs outside of the oracle revelation one seem strange. They seem to be intended to buff protoss in PvZ but I'm not exactly sure how these changes do any of that. PvZ lategame isn't what's wrong right now. The issues are that protoss at the top level can almost never get past 3 bases without getting steamrolled by ling/bane/ravager compositions and that there are basically no effective pressure builds left that can't be comfortably dealt with in the majority of cases by zerg, making it difficult to slow down zerg's economy. Adept glaive builds have run their course and are being handled by zerg in such a way that these builds almost always end up with a zerg advantage/win now. Same with archon drops. The two stargate phoenix stuff pros were trying for a bit was even worse. We're basically at the point where anything less than the zerg player making a substantial mistake will result in the zerg by default having an economic advantage.
That specifically seems to be the problem, if indeed there is a problem.
We tend to see this a lot with Zerg. Protoss and Terran come up with solutions to slow the economic juggernaut, Zerg eventually become really adept at defending them and then steamroll when they do.
As you say, outside of games where the Protoss does a lot of damage or allins, the issue isn’t (as it was) that lategame P can’t fight lategame Z when things go to the air, it’s P being wiped out in the transition phase.
Imbalance or not aside, this cycle seems to repeat a lot with nothing more fundamental being addressed, if indeed it needs addressed.
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Lol baneling dmg vs armored will do nothing to help top protoss vs top zergs.
The way the game works, protoss doesnt have enough supply to take a 4th base without losing all probes to ravagers/baneling run by.
Zerg can just mass ravagers and banes way faster than protoss can get immortals and templars with energy for storm. Zealots get melted by banes and stalkers get overwhelmed by zerglings. Nerfing baneling damage vs armored does nothing to help protoss in its weakest area in pvz. Theres just way too many zerg units, number wise, for protoss single target units to be able to kill fast enough. They just dont have enough dps until 170+ supply, but pro zergs are really good at taking advantage of the 120-150 supply phase of the game. Reason for that is their main single target dps units are zealots, that die to banes in 2 seconds and are outnumbered 1 to 4, and immortals take forever to mass up compared to ravagers and banes. Other units have terrible single target dps, and you cant have infinite storms at 140 supply.
Basicly game is decided at 6-7minutes by economic stage. If zerg defends well, they have so many banes, lings, and ravagers that no matter how hard you nerf banes, they still never have enough units to defend perfectly, and they slowly die to ravager/bane split attacks.
No amount of dmg nerf to banes vs armored will change that, all you need banes to do is clean up the zealots/templars/sentries and soften up the army then ravagers and lings kill all left over units.
Problem is, you cant increase banelings supply because widowmines will become too strong.
The problems with T/Z/P balance is way deeper than all these unit tweak, and i feel the last few patches only break the game more than they fix it.
Shield battery overcharge is one of the worst bandaid ever, and has no place in this game.
BC teleport/shoot while moving was also a bad idea to make BCs relevant. BCs should be a late game slow and powerful all around unit that is not vulnerable to splash. Instead its another worker harass opening unit that you use to avoid army and kill workers in the early and mid game. Terran didnt have enough of those already?
Biggest problems right now in SC2:
- Banelings being 0.5 supply allows zerg to trade banks into guaranteed damage. Also overwhelms protoss easily in the mid game.
-Protoss production.: The biggest protoss weakness is how slow they are at remassing or even just massing their tech units in the mid game. If they lose their immortal army just once, they never get it back.
Warp gates and warp prism being this strong makes it very hard to buff robo unit production, and gives a limit to how powerful gateway units are allowed to be.
Warp-gates should be redesigned in a *hero* building that you make one of, and it has a a set number of warpins available (4, upgradable to 6, for example). You can then buff gateway production, unit stats, and perhaps allow immortals to be made from gateways once you have a robo support bay. If warp gates are weak, something like that is possible. Additionnally, without warp gates, you can bring the old templar upgrade to get 75 energy at spawn.
- Zerg late game: Too reliant on incredibly powerful spells: abduct and neural are too strong and make it so zerg late game units have to be weak, Broodlords and ultras are very boring and weak and awkward units, Not good all around at all. Limit the possible targets of adbuct and neural to 4 supply units max, and buff broodlords and ultralisks.
-Terran harass unit overlap: Terran units have too many overlapping roles. Liberators, banshees, BCs, all serve the same role in the early/mid game. Its obvious Battlecruisers need a redesign to a true late game unit. I feel currently, design wise this is the only terran problem. Proxy 2 racks is pretty strong, and perhaps a bunker build time change is needed once again.
I strongly feel like sets of changes like this would be way better than what we have been presented for the last few years. Patches have not been addressing the real reason why all 3 matchups seem impossible to all balance at the samme time. Tweaking unit stats will never fix the core issues of ZvP.
Oh and lastly: Canons should take as long as spine crawlers to make, to help prevent abuse.
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Mexico2170 Posts
This will just make PvP unplayable, not because of it being hard but it will make it annoying. I already hate it because you get cannon rushed every game, to the point I literally don't bother and open forge now to counter cannon rush every single game.
Then it becomes a game of they turtling massing VR and then Carriers into them making VR rush which I usually win against but it takes too freaking long to end a game I won in the minute 3.
Now VR will be more powerful whcih will just make those games last longer. Also you should always be careful with the VR, as it already counters everything Protoss has in the midgame, until you get storms and blink, and even then you need to be very careful. Now with the increased speed they will be stronger against storm and blinks, which maybe won't make them too strong, but definitely more annoying.
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The problem is not Protoss. The problem is Zerg. They are too strong vs both races. Banelings have too much health.
The core issue is zerg by desing is too strong. Their design is simply better than the other too races and this expantion made them even better because it punishes you if you don't expand, and guess which race has the easiest time expanding?
The ban-daid solution has always been to not let the zerg drone and harass him constantly, or making an all-in before they grow to much. Unfortunately the Queen is too strong, and zerg player have gotten better at macro. That alongside the baneling being an incredibly effective unit that cost 0.5 (!!!) supply, makes it very difficult to deal enough damage to the zerg, so they just keep growing and growing until they kill you.
As a main protoss player, I appreciate the buffs, but honestly as long as they dont give Protoss and Terran better tools to deal with Zergs, or nerf Zergs so they don't have such an easy time expanding and protecting their expantions, these changes will do nothing.
EDIT: Just read the two post before mine. Yeah, that's exactly the problem, and it's at the core a desing problem. Zerg's virtues as a race and it's core mechanics, are simply too good, specially against Protoss. That doesn't mean winrates can be balanced, they can be, but through either band-aid patches, or strong all-ins.
Like the other poster correctly points out, this has been the case since the game came out, hence Protoss all-ining most PvZ games since WoL. And right now, until a pro figures out another all-in it seems the options are running out. Hence why this will change nothing. There needs to be ways to stop the Zerg for growing or any other buff will either do nothing or just create another cheesy all-in build.
As a side-note.I will ask this question to Protoss players: don't you feel restricted? I've been playing random this past 2 months at you really feel like the different races have a lot of possibilities, but Protoss meta is always very fixed into a certain composition, and even then there is not a lot of variance, you basically end up with Zealot/Archon/HT/Carrier every game, this is in stark constrat to Zerg specially, but also Terran. This is just a side not comment about desing not so much balance though.
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Funny how u all are happy because of Baneling nerf forgetting, that mass bane is the only way Zerg survives and can deal some damage. Over the years every fucking Zerg unit was nerfed, baneling is the last stand. If u want to nerf it, u must buff something else for Zerg to have an alternative.
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It would be nice if Blizzard fixes worker count help on top of base in campaign. When you play multiplayer, it says 16 for minerals but in campaign it says maximum minerals (e.g. 24/24). Even in LotV campaign as far as I remember.
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Looking forward to testing these out.
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the only way to tweak banelings without break the game is to create a tag "touched by acid". Then an unit can t be affected multiple times by the additionnal damage, of course the result is to increase the unit banelings size, life and his supply cost. Then, the difference of fire-power between a marine with or without adrenaline has to be reduced in order to keep the "spirit" for splitting units. All these changes can be done around medivacs health-spell with care, allowing to adjust the force of the bio ball.
If problems still occurs, you can force Medivacs to load units one by one, which would be the answer to the next problem for Zergs.
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France12758 Posts
These air toss buffs seem rather bad, especially the void ray one...
The baneling tweak doesn’t seem good enough to even out TvZ either.
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On August 08 2020 16:40 hiroshOne wrote:
Funny how u all are happy because of Baneling nerf forgetting, that mass bane is the only way Zerg survives and can deal some damage.
Over the years every fucking Zerg unit was nerfed, baneling is the last stand. If u want to nerf it, u must buff something else for Zerg to have an alternative.
Nope that's just not true. Queens helps Zergs tremendously with their defense(and Survival). I've seen countless Zergs defend very convincingly with Roach/Ravager/lings and just queens. This comp + Lingrunby's always seems to deal some dmg aswell while on the offence.
This nerf is promising and it will be interesting to see how things pace out.
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On August 08 2020 12:52 [Phantom] wrote:
As a side-note.I will ask this question to Protoss players: don't you feel restricted? I've been playing random this past 2 months at you really feel like the different races have a lot of possibilities, but Protoss meta is always very fixed into a certain composition, and even then there is not a lot of variance, you basically end up with Zealot/Archon/HT/Carrier every game, this is in stark constrat to Zerg specially, but also Terran. This is just a side not comment about desing not so much balance though.
Historically aye, more stylistically than compostionally though.
Not that my mechanics are/were good, just relative to me they were always my strength and especially in WoL and PvZ in general one can’t have a solid opening build and improvisationally grind down a Zerg in straight macro games efficiently past a certain level. Terran to a similar though slightly lesser degree. I remember hitting that wall after playing some of my (admittedly low) best Starcraft ever, giving up and learning the Soul Train, practicing the build a few times and having a way better WR immediately.
Feels like you almost go in to games just executing a few of your solid builds, rather than fluidly playing the game that’s in front of you. Like having to play chess with a set opener and developments instead of just having a normal game with all the options you can remember from your locker.
I’m slightly exaggerating but to me that’s where it feels the restrictions lie, but less so than in previous expansions and really it’s a PvZ issue primarily. PvT and PvP are pretty decent these days in compositional variety and stylistic variety.
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
Putting me more radical hat on, and hey no more expansions coming so pretty unlikely. But hey 10th year anniversary let’s be radica!
Just spitballing for fun, what if races got a single unit each for a specific matchup to fill holes? What are the holes indeed?
I’d rather Protoss get a new PvZ unit for example and fix that dynamic than we be stuck with a ‘Hm better make Airtoss good again’ kind of scenario.
My brain is yet to function so I can’t think of this unit, other than it should be something speedy, harass-based and sort of sucks at combat and comes from the gateway and is relatively massable but blows at cheesing.
Something that can excel at hit and run attacks and can be split off from your army in the mid game thru early late game basically.
We have good early game harassment options, albeit Zergs defend a lot better now. When the game goes long and the Zerg stretches out zealot runbys and DTs are great.
In the in-between phase, where the Zerg has defences, units and creep spread but hasn’t expanded too far outwards, there’s not a huge amount to do if the Zerg is playing well. AKA the ‘throwing away loads of Chargelots and DTs’ stage.
Just my poorly thought-out 50 cents really. Probably should have waited until I had coffee
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On August 08 2020 16:40 hiroshOne wrote:
Funny how u all are happy because of Baneling nerf forgetting, that mass bane is the only way Zerg survives and can deal some damage. Over the years every fucking Zerg unit was nerfed, baneling is the last stand. If u want to nerf it, u must buff something else for Zerg to have an alternative.
zergs usually get buffs when a unit gets nerfed though.
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In theory a banelings can hit up to 37 marines in a same time (with burrow).. as you need two banelings with different positions to kill a group of marines, you approximatively kills 30 marines.
so one baneling can deal 1000 damage while a storm do 80...
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On August 09 2020 00:18 Vision_ wrote:
In theory a banelings can hit up to 37 marines in a same time (with burrow).. as you need two banelings with different positions to kill a group of marines, you approximatively kills 30 marines.
so one baneling can deal 1000 damage while a storm do 80...
You're comparing the absolute best case scenario for the baneling to a storm that hits one unit?
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On August 09 2020 01:44 Zzzapper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2020 00:18 Vision_ wrote:
In theory a banelings can hit up to 37 marines in a same time (with burrow).. as you need two banelings with different positions to kill a group of marines, you approximatively kills 30 marines.
so one baneling can deal 1000 damage while a storm do 80... You're comparing the absolute best case scenario for the baneling to a storm that hits one unit?
no i haven t finished yet :
30 marines * 50 M = 1500 minerals
2 Banes = 100 minerals + 50 gas
Just kidding
To be serious, it s idiot to go on with half a supply cost... that s obvious for anyone who has played at a casual level / geek level.
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Northern Ireland23745 Posts
On August 09 2020 01:44 Zzzapper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2020 00:18 Vision_ wrote:
In theory a banelings can hit up to 37 marines in a same time (with burrow).. as you need two banelings with different positions to kill a group of marines, you approximatively kills 30 marines.
so one baneling can deal 1000 damage while a storm do 80... You're comparing the absolute best case scenario for the baneling to a storm that hits one unit?
Stop talking about my storms, it’s embarrassing.
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On August 08 2020 20:17 PyroNswe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2020 16:40 hiroshOne wrote:
Funny how u all are happy because of Baneling nerf forgetting, that mass bane is the only way Zerg survives and can deal some damage.
Over the years every fucking Zerg unit was nerfed, baneling is the last stand. If u want to nerf it, u must buff something else for Zerg to have an alternative. Nope that's just not true. Queens helps Zergs tremendously with their defense(and Survival). I've seen countless Zergs defend very convincingly with Roach/Ravager/lings and just queens. This comp + Lingrunby's always seems to deal some dmg aswell while on the offence. This nerf is promising and it will be interesting to see how things pace out.
I see countless of Terran/Protoss defending with 3 units, but it's only a balance issue when The Zerg defend...
The reality is during a long time, killing Zerg was way too easy (bunker rush, hellbat push, hellion blue flame, BC, proxy reapers etc...) but after years, Zerg become better and better at dealing with them (it's normal, it's just training,). But many people are nostalgic of the build order free win area then they try to deny the fact the Zerg improve. They blame queens, while queens are never been so weak since early WOL.
Which compositions are viable that don't involve baneling outside ZvZ ? None. They killed roach long time ago, they killed infestors, they killed Zerg T3.
But the whine fest never stop, they were countless of Zerg nerfs, and the second a patch arrive, the same players asked for another one. As a result, the Zerg population which was previously a quite popular race is now the least played race.
It's not surprising, why you want to play Starcraft as Zerg ? You can barely attack before hive, you spend your time defending, you have little viable strategy (LBM or ravagers/banelings ?).
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On August 09 2020 02:34 Tyrhanius wrote:
They killed roach long time ago, they killed infestors, they killed Zerg T3.
Strange how all of those keep winning games then.
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sOs proxy nexus shield battery overcharge void ray or tempest rush incoming xd
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On August 09 2020 02:49 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2020 02:34 Tyrhanius wrote:
They killed roach long time ago, they killed infestors, they killed Zerg T3.
Strange how all of those keep winning games then.
Yeah, because Zerg is not allowed to win any games right?
Let's nerf marines, as they often win games.
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EPT
